HCup Rd1 (Pool 5): Leinster (9) v (6) Exeter Chiefs @ RDS (15:40, Saturday 13 October 2012)

First topic message reminder :

Exeter get welcomed into the Heineken Cup with a fabulous opening fixture. Definitely a case of being thrown in at the deep end.

Leinster have been slow to kick into gear so far this season. We have been leaking points in all our games and have a good few injury doubts with names like Healy, Quinn Roux, SOB, McLaughlin, Ruddock, Dom Ryan, Boss, BOD, Darcy, O'Malley, Conway, Nacewa, Fitzgerald, Kearney all injuried to some degree or other.

That said, Leinster at home in the HCup I'm going for a Leinster win, Exeter not to get a LBP, and Leinster not to get a TBP!

Jenifer McLadyboy wrote:Don't forget......afterwards....

Leinster will kick off their British & Irish Cup campaign in Donnybrook on Saturday evening when they welcome Leeds Carnegie (KO: 7pm)...FREE Entry for Leinster Season Ticket Holders...

Pot Hale wrote:

Cumbrian wrote:I think the English club's objections are that by the time Exeter and Leinster play the return fixture, Exeter will be fighting tooth and nail to get back in to the HC via their league position. Leinster will be guaranteed a place no matter what. We're still fairly early in the season at the moment and the impact of league matches haven't been felt yet.

I think what you meant to say was that "by the time that Exeter and Leinster play the return fixture, Exeter will be fighting tooth and nail to get back into the HC via their league position. Leinster will be fighting tooth and nail to get into the playoffs via their league position."

Can you get back on thread now please.

Actually he was playing on the ing today, but it was that guy from Fiji, it was as cynical as it gets

Pot Hale wrote:

Cumbrian wrote:I think the English club's objections are that by the time Exeter and Leinster play the return fixture, Exeter will be fighting tooth and nail to get back in to the HC via their league position. Leinster will be guaranteed a place no matter what. We're still fairly early in the season at the moment and the impact of league matches haven't been felt yet.

I think what you meant to say was that "by the time that Exeter and Leinster play the return fixture, Exeter will be fighting tooth and nail to get back into the HC via their league position. Leinster will be fighting tooth and nail to get into the playoffs via their league position."

True, but Leinster expect to be at the the top of the league and that is fair enough. Without focusing on the team vs. team implications, a better comparison might would be to say that by the time they meet again Exeter would be fighting tooth and nail to qualify whilst teams near the bottom of the Rabo will guaranteed spots in the HC.

nathan wrote:

Pot Hale wrote:

Cumbrian wrote:I think the English club's objections are that by the time Exeter and Leinster play the return fixture, Exeter will be fighting tooth and nail to get back in to the HC via their league position. Leinster will be guaranteed a place no matter what. We're still fairly early in the season at the moment and the impact of league matches haven't been felt yet.

I think what you meant to say was that "by the time that Exeter and Leinster play the return fixture, Exeter will be fighting tooth and nail to get back into the HC via their league position. Leinster will be fighting tooth and nail to get into the playoffs via their league position."

Can you get back on thread now please.

Yep, that's the last word I'll say on it.

nathan wrote:

Pot Hale wrote:

Cumbrian wrote:I think the English club's objections are that by the time Exeter and Leinster play the return fixture, Exeter will be fighting tooth and nail to get back in to the HC via their league position. Leinster will be guaranteed a place no matter what. We're still fairly early in the season at the moment and the impact of league matches haven't been felt yet.

I think what you meant to say was that "by the time that Exeter and Leinster play the return fixture, Exeter will be fighting tooth and nail to get back into the HC via their league position. Leinster will be fighting tooth and nail to get into the playoffs via their league position."

Can you get back on thread now please.

We're discussing the return match of Exeter v Leinster and how well each will be prepared - what's your problem?

Cumbrian wrote:

Pot Hale wrote:

Cumbrian wrote:I think the English club's objections are that by the time Exeter and Leinster play the return fixture, Exeter will be fighting tooth and nail to get back in to the HC via their league position. Leinster will be guaranteed a place no matter what. We're still fairly early in the season at the moment and the impact of league matches haven't been felt yet.

I think what you meant to say was that "by the time that Exeter and Leinster play the return fixture, Exeter will be fighting tooth and nail to get back into the HC via their league position. Leinster will be fighting tooth and nail to get into the playoffs via their league position."

True, but Leinster expect to be at the the top of the league and that is fair enough. Without focusing on the team vs. team implications, a better comparison might would be to say that by the time they meet again Exeter would be fighting tooth and nail to qualify whilst teams near the bottom of the Rabo will guaranteed spots in the HC.

Leinster might expect to be at the top of the league. Doesn't mean that they will be. I was only referring to the two teams featuring in this match and the supposed advantages they have. Exeter proved today that it's less than people assume.

Being genuinely honest I missed the first 12 minutes of the game so I didn't see that.

Exeter doing well, neither proves nor disproves whether Rabo teams have an advantage.

What they did prove is they are a real team who exceed the sum of their parts.

LondonTiger wrote:Exeter doing well, neither proves nor disproves whether Rabo teams have an advantage.

What they did prove is they are a real team who exceed the sum of their parts.

Maybe not on their own. But Sarries and Clermont kinda pressed home the point. Absolute domination.

Pot Hale.

English and French teams performing well today proves nothing about whether there is an inherent advantage to Rabo teams. If you support the belief, you can say they have performed well despite a disadvantage.

The problem is that The English and French clubs followed the terms of agreement that two years notice be served, and that this followed a period of leinster domination. It makes it look like sour grapes.

Any way that was a really tense game - and I look forward to seeing how ASM enjoy their visit to Devon

LondonTiger wrote:Pot Hale.

English and French teams performing well today proves nothing about whether there is an inherent advantage to Rabo teams. If you support the belief, you can say they have performed well despite a disadvantage.

The problem is that The English and French clubs followed the terms of agreement that two years notice be served, and that this followed a period of leinster domination. It makes it look like sour grapes.

Any way that was a really tense game - and I look forward to seeing how ASM enjoy their visit to Devon

Do you mean it proves nothing or it disproves nothing? The assertion has already been made based on previous results. Today's performances disprove the belief in my view. Partly because teams like Edinburgh or even Leinster are not that good or advantaged as people believe, and also because teams like Saracens, Racing are improving.

I don't buy into the sour grapes perception. If someone has a valid complaint, and have the evidence to support it, they should get a fair hearing.

Yeah Nacewa should have went to the bin for sure. Great performance from Exeter, probably deserved the win never mind the draw.

That said Leinsters defence and work at the breakdown, particularly by Jennings, was superb. The scrum isn't what it was last year,minus Brad Thorn, and the set piece generally was below par.

BOD was superb in defence, and Madigan and Sexton looked dangerous but there seems to be a lack of cutting edge with Leinster right now. In fact Mike Ross looked Leinster best attacking player

A win is a win though but Leinster will need a huge improvement to get out of this group. Exeter are going to be a nightmare for whoever they play and Leinster won't be looking forward to the return game.

Mike ross making a line break is my new favourite HC memory

Flip he made two of them! The first one he was going so fast I did a double take to work out who it was. Reminded me of a try Tom Court scored at the end of last season...he was going so fast I thought it was Trimble!

I couldn't stop laughing after his first line break. It was brilliant. It was the only good point of the game from a leinster point of view.

Can't believe Ross left us after we made him into the rampant beast you saw yesterday!!

Congrats Exeter, on any other day you would have won that game, steer clear of the French refs in the future.

Now focus on the next game and use this.

So proud

So tired

AsLongAsBut100ofUs wrote:So proud

So tired

So you should be!

Exeter played as a cohesive unit all game. They varied their attack between up the jumper and going wide well. They retained the ball well and didn't try low percentage passes. Their rush defense was very good. First HC game, they managed the occasion great. I don't think their substitutions impacted their play. But kicking.... was terrible. They left at least 6 points on the field in the first half and I don't know why they decided to kick at goal at the very end from that position. It was 45-48 metres dead centre, but there was a breeze coming down the field worth another 10 metres onto that distance. Was it a bit of panic or inexperience? Their lineout was a bit wobbly but you would have to have a safe lineout call that you have your hooker throw to, they were retaining ball well, just needed to centre the rucks in front of the posts within the 22m line and give your outhalf the chance to get a closer drop goal.

Leinster won. But should have lost.

Nacewa should have seen at least a yellow (I'm fairly sure the letter of the law could even go so far to saw something like a deliberate trip is a red card).

Healy was way below par, I don't think he was fit and it was noticeable even in the warm ups.

Strauss was good in patches, but around me there were calls for Cronin's better open running and handling skills to be brought on earlier in the second half.

Browne is a soldier but he is not a HC level player. Toner played better than him when he came on.

Cullen is starting to serious struggle in the bigger games. The second high tackle should have been a yellow (not on its own, but the fact that the same player made 2 bad high tackles in the game, the ref could easily have gone to his pocket).

Jennings, McL and Heaslip played well I thought, but there was little support from the tight 5 (apart from Strauss in small periods, and Ross for the entire game).

Ross played the best of the tight 5. The man is a diesel engine, only goes so quick (a very slow quick!) but keeps going at that speed for 80 minutes. It showed how poor the rest were that his consistent level of play outshone the rest of them.

Reddan was slow with the ball, partly due to great counterrucking from Exeter and the poor showing from our pack. No quick tap n goes, but that was good Exeter cuteness as they always got their hands on the ball whenever they infringed, and would delay just long enough for the rest of the players to get back 7-8 yards and form a line (not saying illegal or anything, just smart play!).

Sexton was not his usual self. He was taking twice as long in all of his routines and as he calls the backline line moves which were poor and limited in the game, he has to shoulder a fairly large chunk of blame for the malaise of the Leinster attacking play. They have beaten rush defences before, but obviously forgot how to today.

Centres were okay, but didn't really do much going forward, some nice glimpses. Great in defence.

Nacewa and Conway were quiet, they didn't really come infield looking for ball from my memory of the game. They just did standard winger play.

Madigan was solid at fullback. But that is all. Kearney is the better fullback but wasn't fit. Nacewa gives better creativity in that position but gave Schmidt no confidence in his outing their against Connacht a few weeks back (granted he was sick that day and it was a last minute requirement for him to play). Madigan picks good lines but his best attribute is fabulous passing (long, short but fast, flat and with zip) and he never came into the line in attack and added that, if he hit the line I feld he went for contact first and thought about passing second.

All in all, Leinster have a lot to improve on. I was working on the usual slow start, but the last 2 games, while wins, didn't bring the performance/tempo/precision that Leinster use when in overdrive. Joe needs to find that gear again.

On second watching last night I thought McFadden had a decent game.

I like the look of Madigan at fullback, his positioning has been very good but he hasn't made the breaks he makes at 10 and needs to join the line more. He'd be my 15 in the AIs if Kearney is out though.

Nacewa has been below par so far this year. He's never been the fastest winger but he looks a yard slower and isn't offering the threat he did last year. Generally there's a lack of pace in the backline and the absence of the breaking threat of Kearney, Fitzgerald and O'Brien is noticeable.

Thorn is badly missed in the set piece and Cullen looks to be really on the wane for sure now. Jennings did great work on the deck but the sooner O'Brien is back the better.

Leinster aren't 3 times champions for nothing though, this result could be a huge kick in the backside for them. Exeter were hungrier than Leinster and equal or superior in most aspects yesterday and Leinster really need a huge performance next week to show they are still the side to beat in this competition.

I wouldnt panic just yet. Leinster do usually have a very slow start to their HC campaigns. Remember montpelier away last year? That was a similar performance. It was only a bit of individual brilliance from cronin and a great kick from sexton that dug us out of that.

If we lose against the scarlets next week. Then we panic!

Losing next week wouldn't be a disaster as long as we get a bonus point,Clermont are not a team that are reliable away from home either so I'd expect them to drop a few points on the road again.

I felt the difference between yesterday and last year was our bench,normally we have a strong set of subs to come on and really up the pace of the game in the last 20 minutes but with our injury problems that quality wasn't there for us.

asoreleftshoulder wrote:
I felt the difference between yesterday and last year was our bench,normally we have a strong set of subs to come on and really up the pace of the game in the last 20 minutes but with our injury problems that quality wasn't there for us.

Yup totally agree. Great point.

Leinster have only won a few of their opening Heineken cup games over the last 8 years or so. It tends to be a tight game. Having said that Exeter were very good.

I wouldn't panic at this stage though I think Leinster may get knocked out in the quarters this years because we will probably have an away quarter if we get out of our group.

You have to feel sorry for Leinster and their injury woes this season though. Does any other team have as bad an injury list right now?

Rory_Gallagher wrote:You have to feel sorry for Leinster and their injury woes this season though. Does any other team have as bad an injury list right now?

Glasgow's pretty close, I feel, Rory. Six definite starters out including their top try scorer, first choice halfback hinge and best blindside.

A massive thank you to my hosts in Dublin - Hoog, Dinghus, Gibbo, Mickado, Staggy, G&M - what a day, what a night, thanks for sharing that, yous are the best

Well played Exeter - they deserved the win but were let down by some poor calls from the ref. Leinster must be breathing a huge sigh of relief as I'm sure they will get better from this point on.

Also, Hayes played really well. Is there an argument that he should be in the Ireland squad for the 6N?

Just heard that Budgie's wife miscarried twins this week - tragic news. Thoughts with you, big fella

That was not a good Leinster performance IMO. We still look a little toothless in attack and our defence seems to only be working at 75%.

On the positives, I thought McFadden was the pick of the backs, really taking the ball up hard and straight. Defence looked very positive too from him, I'd start him again.

Ross looked good enough and Strauss was ok. Jennings I thought was the pick of our backrow.

Negatives our scrum wasn't that great, our second row department is a real worry. It will be exploited at some point and Clermont and Scarlets will have noticed this some time ago.

We don't look deadly dangerous in attack anymore either which for me is a huge worry. We seem to go through more direct phases rather than being as inventive as I know we can be. Kearney and Fitz and SOB coming back will make a difference but we need BOD and Nacewa to up it in this department

AsLongAsBut100ofUs wrote:Just heard that Budgie's wife miscarried twins this week - tragic news. Thoughts with you, big fella

The team wore Black Armbands Asbo.

Very sad.

thebandwagonsociety wrote:Also, Hayes played really well. Is there an argument that he should be in the Ireland squad for the 6N?

I wouldn't think so, we have some fantastic locks right now. O'Connell, O'Callaghan, Ryan, Tuohy, Stevenson, Toner, Cullen and possibly Henderson would all be before him I would think.

Out of that list, Stevenson in particular is very underrated. He will be pushing Tuohy hard for a starting spot on the Ulster team.

MrsP wrote:

AsLongAsBut100ofUs wrote:Just heard that Budgie's wife miscarried twins this week - tragic news. Thoughts with you, big fella

The team wore Black Armbands Asbo.

Very sad.

The commentators pointed this out during the game, very sad news indeed. My prayers are with him and the family.

Rory_Gallagher wrote:

thebandwagonsociety wrote:Also, Hayes played really well. Is there an argument that he should be in the Ireland squad for the 6N?

I wouldn't think so, we have some fantastic locks right now. O'Connell, O'Callaghan, Ryan, Tuohy, Stevenson, Toner, Cullen and possibly Henderson would all be before him I would think.

Out of that list, Stevenson in particular is very underrated. He will be pushing Tuohy hard for a starting spot on the Ulster team.

POC is only coming back from a knock, DOC has picked up a knock. Cullen is fading and I think his Ireland days are behind him. That would leave you with Ryan, Tuohy, Toner and the kid Henderson. If I had them in my squad, I'd like an older head like a Hayes there. Ryan and Tuohy as a starting pair, McCarthy on the bench. Hayes into the wolfhounds/A team (whatever their name is at this stage) with Toner and Stevenson. Drop him into that squad in the training sessions and I reckon it puts the cat amongst the pigeons, driving some of these other guys to up their games a bit if they want a green jersey.

I know this is complete pie-in-the-sky talk from me at the minute. But looking down the line, we have fading locks (aging and fading), injuries building up on other locks, Hayes being a pack leader in Exeter who will make a strong valiant stand in the HCup and they host Leinster in the final round of group games the end of January, potentially getting good airtime around the time the 6N squad is put together. I can see him becoming popular choice by the end of January.

I think Rory is overdoing it by saying we have a few 'fantastic locks'. We have O'Connell who last season was playing as well as he ever has, and.....then whoever plays with him. I thought Ryan did well in a green shirt last season but I've been distinctly unimpressed by his performances for Munster this season, though I have only seen him three times so that might be an unfair reflection. Tuohy has played decently and Stevenson is underrated- but are they international class? I'm not sure they are. I haven't seen anything in Hayes that suggests he is either. Worth a look at in an extended squad, and the suggestion of a game for the Wolfhounds is a good one. We have a game against Fiji so why not try him there.

If Hayes is regularly playing well for Exeter then no reason why he shouldn't be considered.

Cullen is shot I think but DOC is in good form as are Tuohy and Stevenson. McCarthy is going well too. POC is still the man and you'd imagine Ryan is first choice to partner him. With Toner there, and the superlative Henderson on the horizon too, there are options but you can never have too many.

I think POC needs to really up it, we only have a handful of weeks before the Saffa game and he needs to prove his fitness, match fitness and form before then. He offers so much but he needs to let everyone know that he is on the pitch for more than just his leadership.

Toner has been playing well without being great.

Ryan is still kicking in to gear still.

Tuohy has looked very good and is a tough cookie.

Henderson has looked excellent IMO. He is going to be an Irish international and a very long term one I think

Leinster second row options are looking quite poor however unless Roux turns in to something special

Amazing to think that 11 of the 15 starters were part of the championship winning side two and a half years ago (not including Carl Rimmer from the pirates and Luke Skywalker Arscott from Brizzle)

What do people make of Hagan not getting a run? I know it was a tight game and Ross played well but the scrum was struggling a bit. In an era where it is very unusual to see a tight head play for eighty minutes I think it shows a real lack of trust from the coaches.
If Bent comes in and becomes the no. 2 tight head what would that mean for Hagans future at Leinster?

Submachine wrote:What do people make of Hagan not getting a run? I know it was a tight game and Ross played well but the scrum was struggling a bit. In an era where it is very unusual to see a tight head play for eighty minutes I think it shows a real lack of trust from the coaches.
If Bent comes in and becomes the no. 2 tight head what would that mean for Hagans future at Leinster?

It was probably just because it was a really tight game in which one penalty from a scrum in the wrong place could have been a disaster. Schmidt knows what he is doing. Hagan will feature in other matches Im sure.

I thought Ross was our best player in the tight 5 on Saturday. I can understand the reason for keeping him on as Healy looked short of gametime and Strauss was not playing up to his usual standards. I know that some of the unused subs played in the A game that evening against Leeds but as far as I can tell Hagan didn’t play there either. It’s hard to tell where Joe sees him in the squad until Bent comes in but I suspect Bent will be our bench TH when he arrives.

Just want to throw a question out there.... why would a player be using an inhaler in the warm to a big game? Surely it's a sign that they aren't completely match fit, especially when I don't recall anyone in the squad needing one in a warmup before?