Heineken Cup Round 1 (Pool 1): Edinburgh Rugby v Saracens

First topic message reminder :

Saturday 13 October 2012
Murrayfield Stadium, Edinburgh
Kick off: 15:35
Referee: John Lacey (Ireland)

Teams:

Edinburgh:

15 Tom Brown,
14 Lee Jones,
13 Nick De Luca,
12 Matt Scott,
11 Tim Visser,

10 Greig Laidlaw (capt),
9 Richie Rees,

8 Stuart McInally,
7 Ross Rennie,
6 David Denton,
5 Sean Cox,
4 Grant Gilchrist,
3 Willem Nel,
2 Ross Ford,
1 John Yapp.

Replacements:
16 Andy Titterrell, 17 Allan Jacobsen, 18 Geoff Cross, 19 Robert McAlpine, 20 Netani Talei, 21 Chris Leck, 22 Harry Leonard, 23 Dougie Fife

Saracens:

15 Alex Goode,
14 Chris Ashton,
13 Joel Tomkins,
12 Brad Barritt,
11 David Strettle,

10 Charlie Hodgson,
9 Richard Wigglesworth,

8 Jackson Wray,
7 Will Fraser,
6 Kelly Brown,
5 Mouritz Botha,
4 Steve Borthwick (capt),
3 Matt Stevens,
2 Schalk Brits,
1 Mako Vunipola.

Replacements:
16 John Smit, 17 Rhys Gill, 18 Petrus du Plessis, 19 George Kruis, 20 Andy Saull, 21 Neil de Kock, 22 Owen Farrell, 23 Chris Wyles

Current form in domestic league:

Edinburgh:

9th Place - Played 6: W 2 D 0 L 4 - 12 points

Saracens:

4th Place - Played 6: W 4 D 1 L 1 - 20 points

Last year's Heineken Cup:

Edinburgh:

Semi-finalists (lost 22-19 to Ulster at the Aviva Stadium)

Saracens:

Quarter-finalists (lost 3-22 to ASM Clermont Auvergne at Vicarage Road)

Indeed Redstag - I rate Ashton highly - maybe one of the best finisher around? But Visser is pretty even with him for that but maybe a more rounded player. Both also enjoy appearing in other parts of the field / running support lines.


How tall is Ashton? Anyone for the crossfield kick to Visser?

RDW_Scotland wrote:That's the thing - if Ashton goes wandering and leaves Visser un-marked and we get a turnover there could be a nasty mis-match out wide!

Wouldn't be such a mismatch if it's Brits needing to stop him. I have seen him stop a rampaging Alesana Tuilagi. Though I agree if it's Visser vs most of the other forwards.

True red stag.

The interesting thing to watch out for is that Hodgson and Ashton have not played with each other since the game vs Sale.

2 games with each other - 3 tries for Ashton. 3 games with Farrell - no tries for Ashton.

Hodgson creates a lot more and with Ashton being one of the most potent finishers he'll score hopefully.

I just hope Hodgson starts!

Great news:

http://edinburghrugby.org/news/edinburgh-news/4467-scott-commits-to-edinburgh-rugby

Can't have seen him going anywhere else, but great that he's committed long term. Suspect he's had a significant pay increase too now he's a Scotland Internationalist.

Might be a long shot but he's my dark horse for the Lions!

RWD Scotland I agree

If he can establish himself as no 12 for Scotland then why not have aspirations for the lions?

Let's see how he does against one of the contenders for the England 12 shirt.

Slightly off topic but there's no real standout at 12 for the lions apart from Jamie Roberts (who will need to find some form). There's definitely places up for grabs, and he might be helped that he can equally play 13 and has played all his rugby up to pro level at 10.

Similar to Farrell I suppose but a lot more attack minded!

Very true RDW. 12 is certainly an area that no one has really nailed down.

Farrell needs to do an awful lot more to be considered for the Lions IMO either as a 10 or 12. He certainly needs to become more creative and attack minded.

He looked pretty good at 12 against LW IMO but yet again his decision making can be questionable. I remember one promising passage of play where if he had just run in a straight line he had a good chance of scoring.


Straightening up is such a simple thing yet many players have the tendency to drift when forcing the player to make the tackle creates space for other players if you can get the offload off.

Interesting you bring up the Lions topic because in a way the HC is yet another shop window for players who want to play for the Lions to strut their stuff.

Plenty of players who will be wanting to be putting their hands up this weekend.

Lots of people saying what I would have said. We can't get into an arm wrestle with the Sarries, they're too strong for that. Equally we can't throw the ball about with reckless abandon and give possesion back to their attritional forwards.

We can selecta physical pack, If Bradley picks it we can gain some forward momentum and then throw it about a bit.

It will be an interesting game but IMO Bradley has 2 games to salvage this season. We are looking too far adrift to realistically challenege for a Pro12 playoff slot. This trully is a must win game.

Great news on Matt Scott - he's a player you can build your backline around. I'll bet other clubs were sniffing about. Not many really quality 12's knocking about at the moment.

I'm pretty nervous about this one. Tonks is going to need to be really strong dealing with the Sarries kicking game. I wonder if Brown will replace Jones specifically to assist with that.

That's a good point FES - Jones has been suspect under the high ball to say the least. To be fair there's not really any facet of play he's not been suspect at this season!

Brown's defence is much better too, and it will have to be if Strettle is playing.

Edinburgh turn down approach to play match in SA:

http://edinburghrugby.org/news/edinburgh-news/4468-statement-on-proposed-sa-switch

Quite happy with that - planning on going to London for the match!

Would be a nightmare for recovery for Edinburgh, both getting out there from the previous match and getting home from the match.

Obviously the money on offer wasn't high enough to make it worth the while.

I agree I certainly don't think playing Edinburgh in Capetown would be commercially successful. I am glad Edinburgh said no.

There are some fascinating matches this weekend. This one right up near the top of the list.

Were Edinburgh flattered by their HC run last season?

Do Sarries have the potential to be as good as I think they have, or are their current performances an indication of where they are.


The backline has not clicked for Sarries yet this season - but it will, and it may do this weekend.

Scottish teams are very good at letting out of form players/teams suddenly find their form again!

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/sport/rugbyunion/club/9599355/Edinburgh-reject-Saracens-proposal-to-play-Heineken-Cup-match-in-Cape-Town.html

I like this picture.

LondonTiger very true. Some very interesting questions.

Bit cheeky but I think the answer is Yes.

I think Laidlaw should have ducked out of that photo and had Grant Gilchrist go along in his place.

Let Borthwick know the sort of size a proper international lock needs to be...........

The Cape Town thing is ridiculous. I do admire what Sarries are trying to do and what they've achieved, but that was a frankly ridiculous request, and Edinburgh have done the right thing.

They both look like two very large babies in that picture.

Two large but ugly babies. Borthwick has a face only a mother could love.

Just found out I've won two tickets for Saturday thanks to Planet Rugby!!!

More drinks for me then!

RDW_Scotland wrote:Just found out I've won two tickets for Saturday thanks to Planet Rugby!!!

More drinks for me then!

Lucky bar steward!

Got to be in it to win it! The key is to pick competitions that not many people will enter - this one involved checking something on their website and emailing - I knew not many people could be hooped doing all that!

Nice one RDW!!

Having seen the BBC weather report for the weekend it looks as though there will be rain. I don't think this will bode well for Edinburgh but will be good for Saracens.. Not sure what to expect but hopefully Edinburgh can still put some width into their game.

Ive entered planet rugby competitions for embra tickets many times before. never succesfull.

BBC says light rain or dark cloud so hopefully it won't be too bad...

How ironic - Scottish fans not praying for rain!

bsando I don't think rain is good for Saracens. It makes handling even harder. Saracens have struggled enough when it's been dry!

Personally I want a more open game. I think on paper the Saracens backline will be stronger. It's all about them clicking.

It matters not what the weather is tommorrow. It's been raining here for more than 24hours and looks like it's not letting up.

The pitch will be a quagmire tomorrow even if it doesn't rain.

The good thing is that half the Saracens side that will start the game tomorrow have played at Murrayfield before.

Radge I don' think the pitch will be a qaugmire - this is a world class pitch and they will have looked after it well. The ball will be wet, yes, but I don't see it being a mudbath!

Your right it won't be a mud bath RDW, but the after a few phases of play the ball will have picked up enough water to render a fast paced, open, wide gameplan nigh unplayable.

Forecast is for the rain top stop after lunch and then just the odd light shower until kick off tomorrow. Hopefully that'll mean it will be OK, and people won't be put off by the weather.

Edinburgh are a very attacking side, with Visser the dangerman, Saracens I'm less familar with, but by all accounts are called boring, but efficient, and kick a lot of points.

penelties will be key for Edinburgh, can't afford to give them away.

I do feel theat Edinburgh did have an easy group last season, but they will be bouyed by that run, and after beating Toulouse they will have the confidance that they can beat anyone at home.

They do talk like they are targeting this game, and nearly giving up on Thomond, they said if you lose first 2 games you are pretty much out of the running,
Laidlaw said

"First game up's huge. Second game, we're going to Thomond Park and you're not wanting to go there having to win.

"So it's all in this game. A big start to this competition and it's a challenge we're all looking forward to."

I've always held that when you build a fortress at home teams are beat before you even play them, Thomond seams to still hold that aura even though its be breached a few times over the last few years.

Anyways Edinburgh are putting the pressure on themselves to win this game.

It wil be a style of play they aren't used to facing, but I think they have the ablity to win this one.

Kingshu wrote:

penelties will be key for Edinburgh, can't afford to give them away.

We're screwed then - our discipline has been awful this season! We've played 2 matches having been down to 13 men at some point, and I can't remember a game when we haven't had a man in the bin!

A few surprises here:

15 Tom Brown

14 Lee Jones
13 Nick De Luca
12 Matt Scott
11 Tim Visser

10 Greig Laidlaw CAPTAIN
9 Richie Rees

1 John Yapp
2 Ross Ford
3 Willem Nel
4 Grant Gilchrist
5 Sean Cox
6 David Denton
7 Ross Rennie
8 Stuart McInally

Substitutes
16 Andy Titterrell
17 Allan Jacobsen
18 Geoff Cross
19 Robert McAlpine
20 Netani Talei
21 Chris Leck
22 Harry Leonard
23 Dougie Fife

I don't think it's wise to label sides one way or another.

For example Saracens have been called boring but then again you look at the backline they can field. It's potentially a very dangerous backline. I would say on paper it's stronger than the Edinburgh one.


In contrast Edinburgh have been labelled as this flashy expansive side but then again Scotland are known for having a decent pack. The likes of Ford,Denton,Chunk and Rennie are good strong forwards.

As already said if Edinburgh perform well they can pretty much beat anyone. If they can raise their game to beat Toulouse then they can certainly beat Saracens.

It's a cliche but ultimately it depends who turns up on the day.

Some surprising choices for Edinburgh there.

Looks like Tonks has an injury, which is a shame cause he would be a great person to have to counter their kicking game. Tom Brown is a good replacement though.

Yapp and Nel instead of Chunk and Cross - Yapp I can understand but Nel is a risk. I suspect we're going to see the prop subs coming on quite early.

McInally at 8 with Talei on the bench - he has been playing well so would be harsh to drop him.


So all in all that is a decent first team with fantastic impact on the bench, particularly the forwads. If we're still in it after 60 mins and we can bring on impact players like Talei and Cross then we stand a chance.

Pleased with the Sarries side though raising my eyebrows a bit at Jackson Wray at no 8 (just read Joubert is injured). This is quite clearly a Saracens side that will look to play a more open game IMO.The frontrow options and backline options give this impression. Good to see form players like Vunipola and Fraser getting the nod.

13 EQ starting, 4 EQ on the bench. Saffacens? Yeah right.

1.Vunipola
2.Brits
3.Stevens
4.Borthwick
5.Botha
6.Brown
7.Fraser
8.Wray
9.Wigglesworth
10.Hodgson
11.Strettle
12.Barritt
13.Tomkins
14.Ashton
15.Goode

16.Smit
17.Gill
18.Du Plessis
19.Kruis
20.Saull
21.De Kock
22.Farrell
23.Wyles

Really excited now!

http://www.saracens.com/news/view.php?Id=7202

Beshocked, how do you rate your Backrow? I know very little about Fraser and Wray, going by the stats neither of them look like ball carriers?

I rate the Saracens backrow very highly.

Fraser have been in excellent form this season. Been frustating the opposition a lot and forcing quite a few turnovers. He notably performed well vs Robshaw.

Jackson Wray is ex England U20s. He's not had as many opportunities as Fraser but he's a good young prospect.

And Stevens starts again. Does he have compromising photos of McCall?

LondonTiger wrote:And Stevens starts again. Does he have compromising photos of McCall?

It's tactical LT, lulling the opposition into a false of security that they'll have a squillion penalties ..... or something

Must do. If I was Edinburgh I would certainly target the scrum.

beshocked wrote:I rate the Saracens backrow very highly.

Fraser have been in excellent form this season. Been frustating the opposition a lot and forcing quite a few turnovers. He notably performed well vs Robshaw.

Jackson Wray is ex England U20s. He's not had as many opportunities as Fraser but he's a good young prospect.

Cheers, will be interesting to see how to the two backrows compare. Denton V Brown is going to be good!

No worries that's certainly one of the picks.

The other battles I am looking forward to:

Ford vs Brits

Laidlaw vs Hodgson

De Luca vs Tomkins

Visser vs Ashton

Denton V Brown and Visser V Ashton could be a potential Lions-off as well!

Do Sarries fans really expect us to do better in the scrums? Dury is out on Yapp at the top level and although Nel has got better he is still a bit of an unkown for us just now.

Giclhrist is a big lump but Cox isn't massive and McInally isn't huge for an 8, but I suppose Ford is a monster and Denton is bigger than Brown so I suspect the pack might be even weight wise.

RDW Scotland the scrum has not been a strength of Saracens. For whatever reasons Saracens have conceded quite a few penalties in the scrum which have turned into points for the opposition.

I don't know how good the Edinburgh scrum is but I would focus on it because it's not a strength of ours.

The Saracens frontrow will be a bit weightier with Vunipola and Stevens picked but they are not known for their scrummaging. Brits is a light hooker and neither is he known as a good scrummager.

The better scrummagers are on the bench.

It's the Saracens lineout and breakdown work that are the most troublesome for the opposition.

Saracens gain most of their penalties with their breakdown work and pressurising the opposition.

http://www.thesun.co.uk/sol/homepage/sport/rugby_union/4584812/Heineken-Cup-Will-Carlings-preview.html

Thought you guys might want a little chuckle at Will Carling. I am not going to write off the sides in Pool 1 as he has! Though I hope he's right about Saracens progressing. How many times have Munster been called a spent force? I've lost count.

A better read here about this game:

http://www.scotsman.com/sport/rugby/top-rugby-stories/rugby-saracens-may-be-difficult-to-break-down-but-defence-coach-is-braced-for-stern-test-1-2570444

Their defence coach is talking our guys up a bit too much for my liking!

I'm slightly surprised that Talei is on the bench for McInally, not from a form perspective, but more for the way Talei raised his game in the HC last season (as did McInally I suppose). McInally is an excellent reader of the game, so perhaps it's for his ability to be in the right place at the right time that he's been picked.

Great that young MacAlpine, Leonard and Fife are on the bench for this game. Great advert for young quality Scottish players to stay in Scotland, as noted in Matt Scott's very good press release this week when extending his contract.

Nel over Cross is a surprise, given that Nel was utterly hammered by the ref against Treviso, giving away at least 5 penalties, a penalty try and getting carded. Perhaps the Edinburgh coaches felt the ref for harsh on Nel (couldn't see it from the stands).

RDW_Scotland wrote:Their defence coach is talking our guys up a bit too much for my liking!

We're not that hard to figure out really. Offload our socks off until we break the line, then throw the ball to Visser and walk back for the restart whilst he scores.

I see Will Carling is still a arrogant numpty.

Saracens have straightforward path to the last 8 despite the fact that multiple cup winners Munster are in their group as are a Semi Finalists team from last year

I reckon Edinburgh will be pretty desperate tomorrow. They need a win.

Hope desperate doesn't mean 'lets offload it even more often than we currently do - that'll work'!

Who is all going tomorrow? Any Sarries fans?