England Squad for the AUTUMN INTERNATIONALS

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Forwards:
Mouritz Botha (Saracens)
Dan Cole (Leicester Tigers)
James Haskell (London Wasps)
Phil Dowson (Northampton Saints)
Dylan Hartley (Northampton Saints)
Tom Johnson (Exeter Chiefs)
Courtney Lawes. (Northampton Saints)
Joe Marler (Harlequins)
Ben Morgan (Gloucester Rugby)
Tom Palmer (London Wasps)
Geoff Parling (Leicester Tigers)
Chris Robshaw (Harlequins)
Mako Vunipola (Saracens)
Thomas Waldrom (Leicester Tigers)
David Wilson (Bath Rugby)
Tom Wood (Northampton Saints)
Tom Youngs (Leicester Tigers)

Backs:
Anthony Allen (Leicester Tigers)
Chris Ashton (Saracens)
Brad Barritt (Saracens)
Mike Brown (Harlequins)
Danny Care (Harlequins)
Lee Dickson (Northampton Saints)
Owen Farrell (Saracens)
Toby Flood (Leicester Tigers)
Alex Goode (Saracens)
Jonathan Joseph (London Irish)
Ugo Monye (Harlequins)
Charlie Sharples (Gloucester Rugby)
Manu Tuilagi (Leicester Tigers)
Jordan Turner-Hall (Harlequins)
Ben Youngs (Leicester Tigers)

Woo no no i'm happy with Goode starting. I'm not happy with Morgan being sent back and i'm not happy with what I believe to be his philosophy. My preference is Goode as I hvae outlined before.

I'd agree. It's not good Morgan being sent back. In regards to Brown who looked like he got a knock vs LI so he might just be sent back as a precaution.

I am glad he didn't send back Farrell Jr simply because I want Hodgson to start vs Wasps at fly half!

See even you guys don't want him starting at FH!

I wanted Farrell to start vs Saints. I knew he'd do the job.

Would like to score some tries vs Wasps though. Going to be interesting with a largely thrown together backline but happily enough it will be most of the side that beat LW.

So the remaining members suggests a match day 23 of:

Marler, Youngs, Cole, Parling, Botha, Johnson, Waldrom, Robshaw
Care, Flood, Monye/Sharples, Barritt, Manu, Ashton, Goode

Vunipola, Paice, Wilson, Palmer, Wood, Dickson, Farrell, Joseph


or summat like that.

Brown not looking like he's in the 23 for the moment, interesting call by SL

And as always, interesting is a synonym for bad

I think Brown's probably going to start the tests against SA, OZ and NZ, given his strong performances over the summer. I think Goode's being given his chance against Fiji to show what he can do.

Not sure why, but i've just got an inkling about this.

bluestonevedder wrote:I think Brown's probably going to start the tests against SA, OZ and NZ, given his strong performances over the summer. I think Goode's being given his chance against Fiji to show what he can do.

Not sure why, but i've just got an inkling about this.

Bomber Lancaster's decisions throw up more questions than answers:

1. Is he going to play his first 23 vs Fiji or is he holding some first choicers back for Australia while trying to foster competetion for spots?;

2. Is he a problem gambler? He has certainly gone completely against my demands for the cotton woolling of key players by sending them back to play when were supposedly in the middle of an "injury crisis";

3. Linked to Qu. 1 and possibly most controversial of all - does he believe Waldrom is better than Morgan? Goode than Brown? Johnson than Haskell?

4. If saw Dowson gets a minor injury are we allowed to call up a replacement into the EPS? ditto for all the others playing on the upcoming weekend?

Answers on a postcard please.

I am a little bewildered and am lookign for clarity.

p.s

5. precisely who is injured and who is sent back to "find form"? ?

Actually, on reflection and post my knee jerk reaction, Brown being out of te squad is better than him being at 22 which doesn't help him, Quins, England or another player who actually provides sensible bench cover.

We might even have a sensible bench!

If Brown doesn't get to play, fair enough, well done Goode who is also on form and a class player but it will mean I don't know what he can possibly do to start as he is already the short term and long (18 months) form FB, now has pace, defence and an all round game playing for the Champs scoring tries and I can't see where he can realistically improve at club level

ChequeredJersey wrote:Actually, on reflection and post my knee jerk reaction, Brown being out of te squad is better than him being at 22 which doesn't help him, Quins, England or another player who actually provides sensible bench cover.

We might even have a sensible bench!

If Brown doesn't get to play, fair enough, well done Goode who is also on form and a class player but it will mean I don't know what he can possibly do to start as he is already the short term and long (18 months) form FB, now has pace, defence and an all round game playing for the Champs scoring tries and I can't see where he can realistically improve at club level

Sarries bias

Goode might be picked because he's basically a 2nd playmaker. I think Brown is a quality player but does he offer as much variety? Probably not.

I don't see what's wrong with Johnson starting. I would start Morgan but Waldrom is not a bad option.

I wouldn't say Lancaster as made any glaring omissions.

ChequeredJersey wrote:Actually, on reflection and post my knee jerk reaction, Brown being out of te squad is better than him being at 22 which doesn't help him, Quins, England or another player who actually provides sensible bench cover.

We might even have a sensible bench!

If Brown doesn't get to play, fair enough, well done Goode who is also on form and a class player but it will mean I don't know what he can possibly do to start as he is already the short term and long (18 months) form FB, now has pace, defence and an all round game playing for the Champs scoring tries and I can't see where he can realistically improve at club level

Yes agreed on all this pretty much. BUT what if Brown gets injured playing for Quins this weekend?

We suddenly look stupid no?

Goode does have much to recommend him. Particularly i like his ability to play at 10 in phase play.

That really keeps us ticking.

I cant see past Brown's all round game and, in November his siege gun left boot.

Bsehocked

For me Waldrom over Morgan is a SHOCK. I hope i am proved wrong.

If Morgan gets injured playing club rugby this weekend i am going to implode with rage.

At least if we put out
Marler, Youngs, Cole....thats a powerful scrummaging, physical, mobile and aggresive front row...that will give all the visiting teams a right battle.

Second row is a BIG concern for me....

Back Row...well Robshaw Yes...Waldrom NO....Johnson...jury is still out at this level...hopefully he will prove he belongs at this level.

The backs will be pretty much as i expected...and still im concerned at the amount of momentum thats gonna be delivered by the pack...

Geordiefalcon I agree with that.

I am worried most about the 2nd row too and particularly the lineout if Youngs starts.

On the other hand if Youngs sorts out his throwing I think he'll be a very good player for England.

I don't like the look of any 2nd row combo to be honest.

Got to hope Lawes is fit.

I suppose the best we could have is Lawes-Robson/Parling.

GeordieFalcon wrote:At least if we put out
Marler, Youngs, Cole....thats a powerful scrummaging, physical, mobile and aggresive front row...that will give all the visiting teams a right battle.

Second row is a BIG concern for me....

Back Row...well Robshaw Yes...Waldrom NO....Johnson...jury is still out at this level...hopefully he will prove he belongs at this level.

The backs will be pretty much as i expected...and still im concerned at the amount of momentum thats gonna be delivered by the pack...

Agreed on all counts and in particular with the bolded comment.

Look we've been bullied yes bullied in contact by Ireland and more recently SA forwards for the last 3-4 years. Bullied at forward and then beaten on the scoreboard.

We're England for fecks sakes. Our rugby heritage is to at least produce packs that get us on the front foot or at worst parity with the best sides.

Nothing massivley against Johnson but i would rate Haskell as at least equal ability, greater experience oh and he's bigger and has greater ability (subjective call alert) to get us over the gainline and to knock opponents backwards. That is why i want him in over Johnson.

For the seconds, from what is available i think Palmer/ Parling is the best we can hope for (with a lineout presence)

IF Botha is somehow deemed to give us more firepower in the loose than Parling, get him in but he comes as a package deal with Tom Wood at 6 to run the lineout.

I think if Youngs is starting at hooker, Parling will have to start too. To his credit, he managed to calm Youngs down at the weekend against Gloucester when his throwing was going askew, and Youngs made a succession of high pressure throws. In fact, I don't think he missed a lineout the entire second half...?

Parlings presence in the second row will be good for Youngs.

I don't think we got bullied by Ireland in the Six Nations Triangulation! Rather the exact opposite!

Mate i think Youngs throwing isnt as bad as made out. He had a bit of a wobble against Glos...but when it mattered in the second half he sorted it out. It will be fine.

Its the physcality of the second rows thats a worry for me...and from waldrom as well who isnt a reknowned breakdown guy.

Lets just see what happens...and that the selectors see sence when announcing the new EPS in January.

I pray that Waldrom isn't starting over Morgan, and am with Triangulation on that count.

Second rows have got to pull themselves together and recognise that their size is actually a weapon! Carry some ball, and hit some guys! Locks should be there players that opposition attackers avoid going into contact with.

Botha especially, if he is going to start/bench, needs to get his act together.

Tri,

Ironically in the last 6n we bullied Ireland...especially in the scrums. Our Front row is the real deal now.

In Sa it wasnt so much that we were bullied we more than matched them at the breakdown etc.......for me it was that we just couldnt seem to match them in the collisions. Individually they were making alot of ground through us....yet we didnt seem to make much of an impact ball in hand running at them....Thats what concerns me about our pack make up at the moment.

bluestonevedder wrote:I don't think we got bullied by Ireland in the Six Nations Triangulation! Rather the exact opposite!

Agreed of course was more thinking 2003-2011 but yes fair enough. My point stands. Nit picker

bluestonevedder the problem I think is the erratic throwing in the first half.

You can say Parling should take credit for calming Youngs down but why didn't he do it sooner? England can't afford their hooker to have a howler throwing in.

I just find it a bit worrying when these two are looking odds on to start for England and at club level they can't coordinate properly.

Unfortunately I think there's little option.

Triangulation Haskell is still a penalty machine. If he can keep his brain switched on then yes he's a good player. I don't think Johnson has done much wrong though and he's in form.

I'm not defending his throwing in the first half, but merely saying that he has got the potential to throw very well, under pressure, consistently, and that Parling seems to be able to work well with him and knows his game.

I agree though, that together, the hooker and line-out caller need to work in absolute synergy, and that Parling and Youngs are not quite there yet.

Triangulation wrote:

bluestonevedder wrote:I don't think we got bullied by Ireland in the Six Nations Triangulation! Rather the exact opposite!

Agreed of course was more thinking 2003-2011 but yes fair enough. My point stands. Nit picker

haha, sorry!

Agree with you about the other years though, we were out-muscled.

GeordieFalcon wrote:Tri,

Ironically in the last 6n we bullied Ireland...especially in the scrums. Our Front row is the real deal now.

In Sa it wasnt so much that we were bullied we more than matched them at the breakdown etc.......for me it was that we just couldnt seem to match them in the collisions. Individually they were making alot of ground through us....yet we didnt seem to make much of an impact ball in hand running at them....Thats what concerns me about our pack make up at the moment.

That's what i meant by being bullied. For one reason or another we're losing collisions.

Scrum i'm happy with esp after that Ireland game. That was special.

Now then is Mr Guscott right when he says that Lancaster has "made his first big mistake" in not selecting Freddie Burns?

Would/Should Freddie have ousted Farrell on the bench?

While i like Freddie's game a LOT. I can see the optimistic merit in having a game closer style 10 on the bench and i think Farrell is continuing to develop into an ideal one of those.

If he comes on with us 10 points ahead in any game, 20 minutes go to i will be fairly relaxed.

But he couldnt select him ...as Farrell isnt injured....and hes restricted by the EPS...so Guscott as per usual doesnt know what hes talking about...

beshocked wrote:bluestonevedder the problem I think is the erratic throwing in the first half.

You can say Parling should take credit for calming Youngs down but why didn't he do it sooner? England can't afford their hooker to have a howler throwing in.

I just find it a bit worrying when these two are looking odds on to start for England and at club level they can't coordinate properly.

Unfortunately I think there's little option.

Triangulation Haskell is still a penalty machine. If he can keep his brain switched on then yes he's a good player. I don't think Johnson has done much wrong though and he's in form.

Beshocked

Assuming that you are correct about Haskell, what should be done about him?

Is he incorrigable?

Let's be honest on here chaps we're not going to win a bean vs Aus, SA or Nz are we?

Put Haskell on the bench. He can cover 6 and 8. Bring his ball carrying dynamism in the closing 20 or earlier if Johnson is noticeably struggling.


So defeatist Triangulation. Have faith.

Let's be honest on here chaps we're not going to win a bean vs Aus, SA or Nz are we

Im actually more optimistic against Australia than the other two. Is that wrong?

GeordieFalcon wrote:

Let's be honest on here chaps we're not going to win a bean vs Aus, SA or Nz are we

Im actually more optimistic against Australia than the other two. Is that wrong?

Spot on I agree.

I agree also!

Australia just drew 18-18 with the All Blacks.

Australia have found a hard edge to their pack for the first time in a long time. I do not think that we can expect 5 scrun penalties out of them this time unfortunately.

Historically when oz match us in the forwards were doomed against them.

Even if we do beat Fiji and Oz and then lose to SA and Nz that has to be considered failure does it not?

We're doomed.

Even if we do beat Fiji and Oz

Well the self declared best team in the NH...already apparently filling 90% of the lions places next year couldnt do it over three games this summer...so i think it would be a good notch.....

GeordieFalcon wrote:

Even if we do beat Fiji and Oz

Well the self declared best team in the NH...already apparently filling 90% of the lions places next year couldnt do it over three games this summer...so i think it would be a good notch.....

SO we get some limited bragging rights of a kind over the welsh. Whoop-di-do!

Is that how we measure ourselves these days?

For me 3 from 4 or more is success. 2 from 4 or less is failure.

The line between success or failure could come down to one kick for the posts but there it is.

I think we have more chance vs Oz and SA than against Nz but we shall see.

Triangulation wrote:Australia just drew 18-18 with the All Blacks.

Australia have found a hard edge to their pack for the first time in a long time. I do not think that we can expect 5 scrun penalties out of them this time unfortunately.

Historically when oz match us in the forwards were doomed against them.

Even if we do beat Fiji and Oz and then lose to SA and Nz that has to be considered failure does it not?

We're doomed.

dooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooomed

ChequeredJersey wrote:

Triangulation wrote:Australia just drew 18-18 with the All Blacks.

Australia have found a hard edge to their pack for the first time in a long time. I do not think that we can expect 5 scrun penalties out of them this time unfortunately.

Historically when oz match us in the forwards were doomed against them.

Even if we do beat Fiji and Oz and then lose to SA and Nz that has to be considered failure does it not?

We're doomed.

dooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooomed

Correct. Get into the spirit that's it.

Hopefully it is going to rain cats and dogs for all 3 of the matches vs Aus, SA and Nz.

That way they wont flog us by too many points hopefully. Bad weather can be a great leveller.

GeordieFalcon wrote:But he couldnt select him ...as Farrell isnt injured....and hes restricted by the EPS...so Guscott as per usual doesnt know what hes talking about...

Geordie, he could've selected him in place of Foden. That would've meant relying on Jospeh for wing cover.

As far as the locks go we know it's an area we've been banging on about for a while now and even Lawes coming back in wasn't necessarily a solution to the problem. Having said that I think the likely lock pairing for Fiji (for which Lancs will put out a full strength squad) will be 4. T Palmer 5. G Parling 19. M Botha.

Lawes only looks like he'll be out for a couple of weeks so could in theory make the bench for the OZ game, or SA the following week. Incidentally Haskell I think has been sent back because he missed the game for Wasps with flu, and they could just be looking to get him some more game time.

I think it's most likely we'll see a backrow for Fiji of 6. T Johnson 7. C Robshaw 8. T Waldrom 20. T Wood. I don't think it's a great backrow to be frank. Johnson has performed well but has a tendency to miss tackles at times and Waldrom hasn't been at the top of his game this season so far. If Morgan doesn't get the 8 spot I don't see him making the bench as he's not utilitarian enough for Lancaster.

I would be happy to see Tom Wood back in the frame as I think his workrate at 6 combined with Robshaw's could be really top class and would allow Morgan to really get out and put the hammer down.

Triangulation wrote:

beshocked wrote:bluestonevedder the problem I think is the erratic throwing in the first half.

You can say Parling should take credit for calming Youngs down but why didn't he do it sooner? England can't afford their hooker to have a howler throwing in.

I just find it a bit worrying when these two are looking odds on to start for England and at club level they can't coordinate properly.

Unfortunately I think there's little option.

Triangulation Haskell is still a penalty machine. If he can keep his brain switched on then yes he's a good player. I don't think Johnson has done much wrong though and he's in form.

Beshocked

Assuming that you are correct about Haskell, what should be done about him?

Is he incorrigable?

Let's be honest on here chaps we're not going to win a bean vs Aus, SA or Nz are we?

Staying optimistic. straight wins, to be unbeaten in the UK from this point onward, conceding no tries at Twickenham

My prediction for the Fiji game is:

1. J Marler
2. T Youngs
3. D Cole
4. T Palmer
5. G Parling
6. T Johnson
7. C Robshaw
8. T Waldrom
9. D Care
10. T Flood
11. U Monye
12. M Tuilagi
13. J Joseph
14. C Sharples
15. A Goode

16. D Paice 17. M Vunipola 18. D Wilson 19. M Botha 20. T Wood 21. B Youngs 22. O Farrell 23. M Brown

Not my preferred choice I must say, but with Lancaster's usual policy i'd put money on this being the team.

To be honest if Ashton is now ruled out I would start Brown at full back.

Call me a traditionalist but I like it when wingers have a good understanding with their full back. I expect Monye to start so I would go with Brown too.

I'm pretty sure Barritt will start and JJ will bench and Brown will be at Quins

Slightly off topic...but has the Summer tour 2013 been picked yet.

Im assuming itll be a developement team even though judging by the lions threads we wont be sending many so its means some of the seniors might get a nice summer off and a few of the fringe youngsters could get blooded.

But wheres the tour gonig?

Chjw131 wrote:My prediction for the Fiji game is:

1. J Marler
2. T Youngs
3. D Cole
4. T Palmer
5. G Parling
6. T Johnson
7. C Robshaw
8. T Waldrom
9. D Care
10. T Flood
11. U Monye
12. M Tuilagi
13. J Joseph
14. C Sharples
15. A Goode

16. D Paice 17. M Vunipola 18. D Wilson 19. M Botha 20. T Wood 21. B Youngs 22. O Farrell 23. M Brown

Not my preferred choice I must say, but with Lancaster's usual policy i'd put money on this being the team.

I don't agree. I bet Barritt starts at 12 with Tuilagi at 13. Quite right too. Agree with the rest unless Marler is unfit.

Yeah it will be Barritt and Tuilagi...but i need to see Barritt showing off his ability ball in hand now not just his defence (which we all know is top drawer)

I guess overall we are all looking for more attacking play from the whole England side....

Barritt has been looking good recently. Quite happy with the side we are able to put out. Do we know who's replacing Ashton yet?

I think it should be one of Johnny May or JSD. I'm also happy for 36 and Burns to gain some valuable experience for their 6N call ups by training with the squad, starting, let's say, today? Tomorrow? Any later and it would be pointless. Let's say 5pm tomorrow

I think the New EPS in January could have a few interesting changes...

Surely the current two form English wingers are Varndell and Wade? So one of them must replace Ashton..

Does anyone know if the Summer tour 2013 is planned?

No idea GF.