Anti-English Sentiment In Lions 15's

I'm seeing more and more prospective Lions 15's with either 1 or no English players which is utterly ludicrous! I couldn't care less which nationality player pulls on the jersey in the summer,I just hope that gatland isnt as blinkered as some posters on this board.

Cole and Marler and Sheridan are smashing it up in the prem/top 14 and Heineken
Robshaw at the minute is a stand out flankers and leader
Danny Care is on fire and Ben Youngs ain't far behind
Tuilagi is un matched in the British isles any country would love to have him in their side!
Foden and Ashton are sure to travel though I admit Kearney will start with North and Bowe is close to Ashton

All of the above must travel with obviously the rest being made up with the awesome Welsh and Irish boys!

Don't understand the anti English feeling on this board

Tiger,

I have litterally just posted on another Lions thread...its not just a lack of English....its the Irish and Scots aswell...

Its obviously just going to be Wales v Australia...cos they did so well over there in the Summer....

Also since the last time Ireland, Scotland and England played Australia they won I believe?

I would have Cian Healy over Dan Cole, although Cole would make the plane. Marler and Sheridan could well go, I expect Marler to go at least. Robshaw should find himself there although to be honest the backrow could go a variety of different ways there will be an incredible competition for places there over the next few months.

Care is a livewire and I would bring him as a change of pace to Mike Phillips who will almost definitely go.

Tuilagi a good player should find himself there. Foden should be there and Ashton, I hate his guts and he doesn't seem to be perofrming too well at the moment I take it. He will go I'd say but I wouldn't start him ahead of Tommy Bowe, maybe North.

Tiger/Chief a little bit of an exaggeration to be honest but I agree with your sentiment that a lot of English players are being written off.

The best English contenders IMO Tuilagi,Barritt,Cole and Care as things stand.

Ashton has a chance too but you would expect Gatland to go with the two Welsh wingers.

Robshaw is in a similar position to Ashton, got a good shot but plenty of competition in the backrow.

At least one of Three English full backs - Foden,Brown,Goode could well get on the plane.


Two of the funniest inclusions in Lion's XV are Gray (who has done virtually nothing of note with Sale this season) and Visser (his try record shows he is good in the Pro12 but still unproven at international level.

Thomand...dont be silly your not honestly saying Tommy Bowe will start ahead of the demi Gods that are North and Cuthbert are you?

Silly boy....

That's also part of it. A lot of us are picking are teams based on what Gatland will try and pick which will probably be very much like the Welsh team in style which suits a lot of the Welsh players.

Thomond wrote:I would have Cian Healy over Dan Cole, although Cole would make the plane.

But they play in different positions.

Well at least the Scots, Irish and English lads will have a nice long holidays in the summer....watching the Wel...ahem Lions take on Australia...

Agreed TC. Deeply upsetting.

To quote President Dale: Why can't we work out our differences? Why can't we work things out? Little people, why can't we all just get along? And all agree that Care/Youngs and Flood/Wilko will be the Lions' first/second choice OHs.

Am I mixing up Marler and Cole, Stag? Marler must be the loosehead so. Apologies.

TigerChief, welcome to the board - interesting first post!

Thomond wrote:I would have Cian Healy over Dan Cole, although Cole would make the plane. Marler and Sheridan could well go, I expect Marler to go at least. Robshaw should find himself there although to be honest the backrow could go a variety of different ways there will be an incredible competition for places there over the next few months.

I don't think selecting one of the Northern Hemisphere's best Looseheads to play over and above one of the Norther Hemisphere's best Tight Heads is a particularly good idea Thomond. I know Ireland don't mind playing LH's as TH's but as the 6N demonstrated it's not always a great ploy.

The choice is Dan Cole or Adam Jones. Frankly I think Cole's work in the loose and jackaling gives him the edge with Adam on the bench.

Incidentally I think i'd have Cian Healy in over Marler at present. I'd also think about Sheridan rather than Marler on the bench.

Don't want to see a repeat of 2005 where Clive filled the team full of his England world cup buddies who were by then on the wane.

Gatland needs to be careful not to copy Clive.

You would think he's too savvy and streetwise to do so but you never know.

Wales are a good side but their recent record against the tri nations has hardly been that great.

I think that Christian Wade, Danny Care, Dan Cole and Steffon Armitage are guys that I would seriously like to see come on tour.

I dont think the Lions works well just picking whoevers on the 6 Nations starting teams.

Chjw131 wrote:

Thomond wrote:I would have Cian Healy over Dan Cole, although Cole would make the plane. Marler and Sheridan could well go, I expect Marler to go at least. Robshaw should find himself there although to be honest the backrow could go a variety of different ways there will be an incredible competition for places there over the next few months.

I don't think selecting one of the Northern Hemisphere's best Looseheads to play over and above one of the Norther Hemisphere's best Tight Heads is a particularly good idea Thomond. I know Ireland don't mind playing LH's as TH's but as the 6N demonstrated it's not always a great ploy.

The choice is Dan Cole or Adam Jones. Frankly I think Cole's work in the loose and jackaling gives him the edge with Adam on the bench.

I mixed up Cole and Marler Chjw, serves me right for posting on her ewhile writing something else. I would have Healy over Marler but Cole is ahead at tighthead at the moment, but there's a long way to go.

No bother Thomond. I would be surprised if there was a majority suggesting Marler over Healy.

beshocked wrote:
Two of the funniest inclusions in Lion's XV are Gray (who has done virtually nothing of note with Sale this season) and Visser (his try record shows he is good in the Pro12 but still unproven at international level.

At it again I see

red_stag wrote:No bother Thomond. I would be surprised if there was a majority suggesting Marler over Healy.

Quite frankly I don't get how Dave Kilcoyne isn't being mentioned as a starter

Scot Abroad wrote:

beshocked wrote:
Two of the funniest inclusions in Lion's XV are Gray (who has done virtually nothing of note with Sale this season) and Visser (his try record shows he is good in the Pro12 but still unproven at international level.

At it again I see

They are potential contenders of course but we'll see what they do in the AIs and next year's 6 nations before they are earmarked as red hot favourites for the Lions.

The jury is still out on Marler still has a lot to prove, although there is a lot of potential. The interesting one is Corbisero who for obvious reasons is very out of sight/out of mind at the moment but was looking very much the real deal.

Thomond wrote:

Chjw131 wrote:

Thomond wrote:I would have Cian Healy over Dan Cole, although Cole would make the plane. Marler and Sheridan could well go, I expect Marler to go at least. Robshaw should find himself there although to be honest the backrow could go a variety of different ways there will be an incredible competition for places there over the next few months.

I don't think selecting one of the Northern Hemisphere's best Looseheads to play over and above one of the Norther Hemisphere's best Tight Heads is a particularly good idea Thomond. I know Ireland don't mind playing LH's as TH's but as the 6N demonstrated it's not always a great ploy.

The choice is Dan Cole or Adam Jones. Frankly I think Cole's work in the loose and jackaling gives him the edge with Adam on the bench.

I mixed up Cole and Marler Chjw, serves me right for posting on her ewhile writing something else. I would have Healy over Marler but Cole is ahead at tighthead at the moment, but there's a long way to go.

Apologies. I'm with you on Healy I must say, was very impressed with his summer tour and 2011 RWC. What about hooker though, surely much less clear. Best is quality but seeing as he's out this AI will he have the opportunity to nail the position down. I wouldn't have Ford anywhere near it and Hartley, whilst doing well this season hasn't been at his best internationally for a while.

Richardt Strauss is now Irish Qualified and will make his debut against South Africa.

Strauss, as much as I don't eant to see him play for Ireland will be in the mix I think. He has been one of the better hookers in the HC for the past few years. The AIs are a good time for any prospective hookers to lay claim to a seat as aside from Best no one has really shown they deserve to be there and there are many who could be in the mix.

I agree with the OP here.

As I have stated previously the Regions generally are having a bad time of it & consequently not many welsh players are performing & haven't been for a while.

All the decisions will be made as a result of the internationals from now & the form of all the players will be key. I'm sure Gatland will pick on form in the main & that will always will upset some quality players who miss out.
But in all honesty if your picking the team now there aren't many welsh players in form & to predict they will be in form is hopeful but not a given.

I wouldn't pick a 'class' player if he hasn't shown any sort of consistent form for a while & that is where players like Warburton, Roberts, Priestland, Phillips, Faletau find themselves right now.

I'm sure they know that themselves & there is time to put it right.

Class players often get lazy until they need to prove their class again. Just a thought.

I wouldn't be too all fired ready to take players performing in leagues or HEC...we've been there before and it can shoot you in the foot.

Gatland is a wise old owl, he won't be fooled by shirt colours or 'pick-me' performances. He'll choose the players he thinks will be capable of doing what is needed to be done then - when down there, when playing, not the auditions.

SecretFly wrote:Class players often get lazy until they need to prove their class again. Just a thought.

I wouldn't be too all fired ready to take players performing in leagues or HEC...we've been there before and it can shoot you in the foot.

Gatland is a wise old owl, he won't be fooled by shirt colours or 'pick-me' performances. He'll choose the players he thinks will be capable of doing what is needed to be done then - when down there, when playing, not the auditions.

Fly,
I think we are in agreement. Let the players prove it at international level.
Gatland has already indicated he will be choosing players on form & the close calls will be down to him. That's fine by me.

Some class players are lazy but you don't see many in the ABs that are though do you?

The reality is that whilst a good few Englishmen will make the tour not many will be in the starting XV. It'll be a close call between Jones and Cole. If Gatland tries to scrummage them of the park he may go with Hartley over Best, but then again they could easily go with Ford instead. Croft has a very good Lions record, but under a different coach and it will be tough for him to get in. I'd have Warburton over Robshaw, but dependent upon who else is picked to provide ball carrying ability there may be scope to move Robshaw to 6, but then he's got to get ahead of Ferris, Lydiate, Brown, etc. In the backs on present form Care is in with a shout as is Tuilagi.

As is always the way with Lions tour the starting XV will not be the XV we consider the best at the start. Some players will get injured, others find form or simply pick up the system quicker.

Well the ABs ain't in the class I was talking about

and Hartley, whilst doing well this season hasn't been at his best internationally for a while..

I actually disagree with this. Englands front row was a huge positive in SA...and as an individual I think hes had his role changed from ball carrier to first man at the breakdown. Its a role that the Saints use him for (he must be particularly strong in that area)....and maybe its because of this and other personnell role changes that Englands breakdown is a massive improvement on where it used to be.

The problem Hartley has is similar to Ashton in that hes just not liked by other teams fans for whatever reason....

GeordieFalcon wrote:

and Hartley, whilst doing well this season hasn't been at his best internationally for a while..

I actually disagree with this. Englands front row was a huge positive in SA...and as an individual I think hes had his role changed from ball carrier to first man at the breakdown. Its a role that the Saints use him for (he must be particularly strong in that area)....and maybe its because of this and other personnell role changes that Englands breakdown is a massive improvement on where it used to be.

The problem Hartley has is similar to Ashton in that hes just not liked by other teams fans for whatever reason....

I agree he did pretty well in SA, despite getting a yellow card in the final test. But he was sat on his behind by Bismark on his way to the try line in the 2nd test. I know the whole forward pack underperformed and i'm not pinning all the blame on him, but my impression of him during the 6N was good but not world class and that's still my view until he can come in and show his all round game.

Ashton and Hartley also have the similarity that no one is really pushing for their England spots even in their absence.

It's much better for a player to have a true contender breathing down their neck. It's a problem I think Easter had.

These guys need the proper danger that their England spots are under threat. I think this would push them harder.

Look at Brown and Goode - both are excellent competition for each other and both are in good form.

I think Brown is very over rated. Goode looks a prospect and Foden is a great player. Brown is probably on a par with Goode now but hasnt the same potential. At the minute both are a step behind Foden.

beshocked wrote:Ashton and Hartley also have the similarity that no one is really pushing for their England spots even in their absence.

It's much better for a player to have a true contender breathing down their neck. It's a problem I think Easter had.

These guys need the proper danger that their England spots are under threat. I think this would push them harder.

Look at Brown and Goode - both are excellent competition for each other and both are in good form.

This is completely spot on in my view.

red_stag wrote:I think Brown is very over rated. Goode looks a prospect and Foden is a great player. Brown is probably on a par with Goode now but hasnt the same potential. At the minute both are a step behind Foden.

Foden is injured though I agree he's a very good player. Foden has had to be consistently good for England because he's had so many FBs breathing down his neck.

Exactly, its a good point although some players play best when they know theres no competition and they are the main man.

Rory Best has been excellent since Jerry Flannery left for example.

Tiger/Chief wrote:

Cole and Marler and Sheridan are smashing it up in the prem/top 14 and Heineken
Robshaw at the minute is a stand out flankers and leader
Danny Care is on fire and Ben Youngs ain't far behind
Tuilagi is un matched in the British isles any country would love to have him in their side!
Foden and Ashton are sure to travel though I admit Kearney will start with North and Bowe is close to Ashton

Now you're just being plain silly

Think Jonny Wilkinson should certainly tour. My two first choice 10s would be Toby Flood and Johnny Sexton, but think about the experience and composure Wilkinson would bring to the games he played in. Starts off in the dirt tracker side and if he goes well by the time the tests come around you never know...

I think he's still as good as he ever was, really enjoying an indian summer over in Toulon and should be brought along regardless of the fact he's retired from England. The Lions is long tour where a scratch team needs to come together quickly; personalities and off-pitch qualities count a LOT in terms of selection, probably more than anywhere else and the model professionalism of Wilkinson would be a welcome addition to the group.

Plus... the Aussies are scared of him!

Here is a scenario -

SL plays Barrett & JJ (assuming he is fit enough) as the centres. Manu T goes to the wing & has a stormer.
Would Ashton be accommodated on the other wing in the following game?
Could that be a position for Manu in the Lions to?

I think the chances of Tuilagi going to the wing in any other circumstances than due to an injury substitution are highly unlikely. Seeing JJ on the wing is however a distinct possibility

Who is the stand out 12, Jamie roberts has done very little to impress since 2009 ?

Even as an Englishman most the starting XV's I've named as hoping to see on the tour haven't contained many English players! Not bias just that I rate most our stand out players slightly behind other very good players I'm hoping can find form as I think they'll add something extra to their English counterparts.

For example;

Cole vs Adam Jones - No doubting as a Tigers and Eng fan that Cole is now an outstanding player now - great in the loose and naturally strong scrummager. Problem is the same can be said for Jones and if he finds form/fitness his experience could be vital in a starting XV.

Robshaw vs Warburton/Tipuric - Looking at Robshaw as an openside (blindside is very well covered with Lydiate,Ferris and Croft - hopefully all fit!). He's now a very good player and leader but in form Warburton is exceptional over the ball and hard to look past for me.

Tuilagi vs O'Driscoll/Davies - Tuilagi is a destructive player and will undoubtedly travel but still lacks a kicking game and has a tendency to rush up in defense (as many inexperienced players do). On a Lions tour I'd be much happier with the class of an inform and fit BOD starting.

Ashton vs North,Bowe,Visser,Cuthbert - No doubting Ashton as a finisher but anyone who regularly pays attention to his work in open play has to doubt his ground work and defence to a serious degree. As all round players I therefore rate Bowe and North above him.

Quite a conservative view in terms of the usual arguments we get over national bias but in my opinion just a simple case of several England players being as close to peoples XVs as possible without being in them.

king_carlos wrote:Even as an Englishman most the starting XV's I've named as hoping to see on the tour haven't contained many English players! Not bias just that I rate most our stand out players slightly behind other very good players I'm hoping can find form as I think they'll add something extra to their English counterparts.

For example;

Cole vs Adam Jones - No doubting as a Tigers and Eng fan that Cole is now an outstanding player now - great in the loose and naturally strong scrummager. Problem is the same can be said for Jones and if he finds form/fitness his experience could be vital in a starting XV.

Robshaw vs Warburton/Tipuric - Looking at Robshaw as an openside (blindside is very well covered with Lydiate,Ferris and Croft - hopefully all fit!). He's now a very good player and leader but in form Warburton is exceptional over the ball and hard to look past for me.

Tuilagi vs O'Driscoll/Davies - Tuilagi is a destructive player and will undoubtedly travel but still lacks a kicking game and has a tendency to rush up in defense (as many inexperienced players do). On a Lions tour I'd be much happier with the class of an inform and fit BOD starting.

Ashton vs North,Bowe,Visser,Cuthbert - No doubting Ashton as a finisher but anyone who regularly pays attention to his work in open play has to doubt his ground work and defence to a serious degree. As all round players I therefore rate Bowe and North above him.

Quite a conservative view in terms of the usual arguments we get over national bias but in my opinion just a simple case of several England players being as close to peoples XVs as possible without being in them.

I think that was correct last season, but this season I don't think its the case.

I think that the reason their is alot of anti English on here is simple.

Warren Gatland is in charge of the Lions. And he is also the Welsh head coach. So it does seem that they think/believe that Wales players will be the bulk of the Lions squad. And that doesnt matter if any other players playing for other countrys are playing better and on better form than the Welsh players.

I f you see what i mean.

In fairness most nations are more familiar with their own players.

Honestly I don't watch the AP that much so until the Heino gets going and the AIs and 6N are on I won't really see much of the English guys, whereas I see a bit more of guys in the Rabo.

I'm sure a lot of English fans don't watch the Rabo either so won't know who's in form there.

There'll be plenty of English guys on tour I'm sure and there's a few test contenders there too. If I was picking a test 15 now it would probably reflect the players I'm watching most which are the Rabo based players.

Nothing can be worse than Woodward talking 268 hasbeen English players in 2005.

RogerLewis wrote:Nothing can be worse than Woodward talking 268 hasbeen English players in 2005.

Atleast most of those HAVE BEEN players. Was RUGBY WORLD CUP WINNING CHAMPIONS.

Yes... WAS. Had no relevance in 2005. Woodward omitted all the form players.

Let's pick Guscott then, he was on fire in 1997.

Tiger/Chief, perhaps you missed Matt Dawson select his Lions XV? Big lack of England players there! He must be biased. That said, and I've commented about this before, there does not seem to be many England players in people's Lions XV. For the record; Care, Foden/Brown, Tuilagi, Cole, Hartley, Robshaw are the capable starters. The only nailed on one there though is Care. The rest of the positions are up for grabs. I'm certain that after the 6 Nations some England locks will be in contention. A lot of candiates in back-row and back 3 though.