Anti-English Sentiment In Lions 15's

First topic message reminder :

I'm seeing more and more prospective Lions 15's with either 1 or no English players which is utterly ludicrous! I couldn't care less which nationality player pulls on the jersey in the summer,I just hope that gatland isnt as blinkered as some posters on this board.

Cole and Marler and Sheridan are smashing it up in the prem/top 14 and Heineken
Robshaw at the minute is a stand out flankers and leader
Danny Care is on fire and Ben Youngs ain't far behind
Tuilagi is un matched in the British isles any country would love to have him in their side!
Foden and Ashton are sure to travel though I admit Kearney will start with North and Bowe is close to Ashton

All of the above must travel with obviously the rest being made up with the awesome Welsh and Irish boys!

Don't understand the anti English feeling on this board

I'd have Cole, Hartley and maybe even Corbisero in the front row. I wouldn't mind seeing Care start. Tuilagi is a bit overrated but if Gatland is looking to overpower the Aussies (which I think will be the main strategy) then Tuilagi can be effective.

I agree that Robshaw should also be a contender and if I was picking the team I'd have Nick Easter on it. He should be still playing for England. Ashton is probably 4th or 5th choice winger as things stand.

I don't see the point of bringing Wilkinson. Flood, Sexton and Halfpenny are all good kickers.

As a bolter maybe Freddie Burns could be worth a look.

Morgannwg wrote:Tiger/Chief, perhaps you missed Matt Dawson select his Lions XV? Big lack of England players there! He must be biased. That said, and I've commented about this before, there does not seem to be many England players in people's Lions XV. For the record; Care, Foden/Brown, Tuilagi, Cole, Hartley, Robshaw are the capable starters. The only nailed on one there though is Care. The rest of the positions are up for grabs. I'm certain that after the 6 Nations some England locks will be in contention. A lot of candiates in back-row and back 3 though.

Nailed on in what sense? Current form? If that's the case then I think you can add Cole to the list, but Jones could easily come back before June.

I don't see how Hartley is being touted as a starter, Best is the better player, he is known for being a very good scrummager, his line out stats in last years HEC where immense, his work in loose is simaler to that of a decent backrow but most of all its his attitude and leadership.

King Carlos - that is a great balanced post. Why does it have to be "anti-english" when a poster picks a Lions team - Just allow them their opinion - Wales are the current GS champs and made it to the semi finals of the RWC and were perhaps unlucky not to get to the final. Gatland is a welsh coach and he may well go with a degree of familairity to some extent, however he's no ones fool like Woodward was for the Lions and I believe he will pick his best squad and team. For me the followng english players have more than a good chance of touring, however the AI's will be the best barometer for many:

Foden
Ashton
Tuilagi
Flood
Care
Cole
Hartley
Waldrom (Gatlands type of player)
Robshaw
Morgan

As an aside I actually think Kelly Brown could be a bolter for Lions Captain - That's not anti Warburton by the way, just my opinion

profitius wrote:I'd have Cole, Hartley and maybe even Corbisero in the front row. I wouldn't mind seeing Care start. Tuilagi is a bit overrated but if Gatland is looking to overpower the Aussies (which I think will be the main strategy) then Tuilagi can be effective.

I agree that Robshaw should also be a contender and if I was picking the team I'd have Nick Easter on it. He should be still playing for England. Ashton is probably 4th or 5th choice winger as things stand.

I don't see the point of bringing Wilkinson. Flood, Sexton and Halfpenny are all good kickers.

As a bolter maybe Freddie Burns could be worth a look.

Waste of time going then cos the Aussies will tackle all day long...their scrum was weak a few years back...but im not sure where this impression that anyone will just try to over power them everywhere else has come from....

It's natural that the Welsh squad is many people's starting point. They did well at the RWC, they are the Grand Slam Champions and their coach is the Lions coach. Many of the England squad, by comparison, had hardly played International rugby a year ago.

But a lot can change between now and the squad announcement and there are several factors that suggest that other players can force their way in:

1) It seems to me that Gatland has shown a willingness to pick players on form and try the untried

2) Several Welsh players who would otherwise be nailed on tourists and many people's starters are struggling to put a run of games together

3) That same bunch of novice English players got tantalisingly close to the Grand Slam themselves. They tripped up in SA, but the final test suggests that a major factor was inexperience of playing at that level rather than lack of ability to do so. In 6 months' time, those players will have doubled their international experience

4) It's a Lions tour. Surprise picks always emerge and force themselves into the squad.

In short, nobody knows owt at this stage. But it's still fun to wind each other up, isn't it?

In short, nobody knows owt at this stage. But it's still fun to wind each other up, isn't it?
Poorfour


Posts: 469
Join date: 2011-10-01



Oh yes, i totaly agree with you on that.

GeordieFalcon wrote:

profitius wrote:I'd have Cole, Hartley and maybe even Corbisero in the front row. I wouldn't mind seeing Care start. Tuilagi is a bit overrated but if Gatland is looking to overpower the Aussies (which I think will be the main strategy) then Tuilagi can be effective.

I agree that Robshaw should also be a contender and if I was picking the team I'd have Nick Easter on it. He should be still playing for England. Ashton is probably 4th or 5th choice winger as things stand.

I don't see the point of bringing Wilkinson. Flood, Sexton and Halfpenny are all good kickers.

As a bolter maybe Freddie Burns could be worth a look.

Waste of time going then cos the Aussies will tackle all day long...their scrum was weak a few years back...but im not sure where this impression that anyone will just try to over power them everywhere else has come from....

Because its Gatlands style and it makes sense. They'll play a Welsh style but naturally they'll have more options. They should win the set pieces comfortably. The Lions pack will have loads of ball carrying options so the Aussies will have to stop them and if they concentrate on that the ball will go wide to North, Roberts etc who'll gain the hard yards. The Aussies will tackle everything but the pressure they'll be under will eventually tell.

Hmm except that Gatland has tried to do that on 5 occasions now over the past 12 months and it hasn't worked. The Australian set piece has been solid, the defense equal to everything the Welsh carriers have thrown at them and in the summer they even dominated the collisions. Pocock is better than Warburton on the deck and the Australian backs have more cutting edge, pace and guile.

If Gatland is going down there without a plan B, as he did in the summer then the Ozzies will win the series I think.

BelfastDickVet wrote:I don't see how Hartley is being touted as a starter, Best is the better player, he is known for being a very good scrummager, his line out stats in last years HEC where immense, his work in loose is simaler to that of a decent backrow but most of all its his attitude and leadership.

I think Best will tour, but..... to say he is better than Hartley because he is a better scrummager?

Did you watch the England Vs Ireland Game in this years 6 nations ? you didnt .....

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZXmC_fku15Y


Him and the rest of his front row were completely dominated by Hartley and Co. Mainly in the scrum and in the majority of other aspects of the game.

IMO Hartley has to start with best on the bench

Tell that to Hartley when hes going backwards over his own line at the hand of Ulster in December

I understand people's concern about Gatland doing a Woodward. However, I would point out some differences.
He is the Welsh coach but he's not Welsh.
He is the Welsh coach but has also coached Ireland and in NZ.
So he MAY be less biased or influenced than you fear.

I love it when people use games that haven't actually happened yet to illustrate their argument.

neilthom7 wrote:Tell that to Hartley when hes going backwards over his own line at the hand of Ulster in December

Is this the same Ulster Team that contains Rory Best and Tom Court ? 2/3rds of the front row that got dominated in the 6 nations ?


Cant wait

EngInAuck wrote:

BelfastDickVet wrote:I don't see how Hartley is being touted as a starter, Best is the better player, he is known for being a very good scrummager, his line out stats in last years HEC where immense, his work in loose is simaler to that of a decent backrow but most of all its his attitude and leadership.

I think Best will tour, but..... to say he is better than Hartley because he is a better scrummager?

Did you watch the England Vs Ireland Game in this years 6 nations ? you didnt .....

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZXmC_fku15Y


Him and the rest of his front row were completely dominated by Hartley and Co. Mainly in the scrum and in the majority of other aspects of the game.

IMO Hartley has to start with best on the bench

No I didn't say best should start JUST because he is a better scrummager but also he is better in the loose, line out, his attitude and leadership on the field is better than Hartley. Also that was a much weakened scrum in the 6 nations and best was one of the few player who actually stood out for Ireland in that match. I would say the "domination" was more due to the very destructive scrummaging of cole on the out of position court.

EngInAuck wrote:

neilthom7 wrote:Tell that to Hartley when hes going backwards over his own line at the hand of Ulster in December

Is this the same Ulster Team that contains Rory Best and Tom Court ? 2/3rds of the front row that got dominated in the 6 nations ?


Cant wait

Yeah but the other 1/3 is John Afoa who ain't too shabby!

I think you mean Corbisiero, but the English scrum was well on top by the time Court came on. Best is a very good player but I don't see why people are so down on Hartley. The comments about his leadership in particular seem odd, as he's pretty widely recognised to be a great leader..

rodders wrote:Hmm except that Gatland has tried to do that on 5 occasions now over the past 12 months and it hasn't worked. The Australian set piece has been solid, the defense equal to everything the Welsh carriers have thrown at them and in the summer they even dominated the collisions. Pocock is better than Warburton on the deck and the Australian backs have more cutting edge, pace and guile.

If Gatland is going down there without a plan B, as he did in the summer then the Ozzies will win the series I think.

It was the end of a long season for Wales, Wales could have won a few of those matches and before you consider the players the Lions will have available.

A lot of guys are quoting Gatland's "he will pick on form" in the press, if he does that then why does he pick Warburton as the Welsh captain for the AI's? He is clearly not playing well but they are trying to fit him into other positions as he is not the best 7 in Wales let alone England, Scotland, Ireland and England. Complete bull, the Wales management did not pick the on form players in Aust first test many had not played for weeks and other walked straight back into the team after long term injuries. This is the reason Wales did not win any of the games, i.e., they do not pick on form.

I'm not worried about Lions coaches being biased - Woodward wasn't biased - I am worried about them being wrong - and Woodward was certainly wrong.

It's difficult to know how wrong Woodward was. New Zealand would have been a handful for any squad which toured that year, and those injuries were a blow. Still, surely even Woodward looks back and thinks he could have selected differently, even if another group would also have been defeated.

Gatland won't be biased but he could be wrong. He could be wrong about the kind of game plan to run; he could be wrong about how well some players will respond under the scrutiny of a Lions tour. If we lose the series, and he has favoured Welsh players, then he'll be proved wrong, but it won't mean he was biased.

"Woodward wasn't biased" - Come on mate when he picked his squad he stated that the team would be largely made up of welsh and Irish players - When he picked the team it was an ageing chariot that was well passed it.

"It's difficult to know how wrong Woodward was" - Well he presided over the worse Lions tour in history - How difficult is that to understand - His meddling with Henson via Alistair Campbell was also an absolute disgrace.

Gatland will pick his best squad and where there is nothing in it for example Foden and 1/2P he may well go with the player he is more familiar with. I actually think Gatland will pick a lot of english and Irish players just to mix things up and give the team some "edge"

Poor England. So harshly treated and misunderstood *violin smiley*

munkian wrote:Poor England. So harshly treated and misunderstood *violin smiley*

The new Millwall

thomh wrote:

Morgannwg wrote:Tiger/Chief, perhaps you missed Matt Dawson select his Lions XV? Big lack of England players there! He must be biased. That said, and I've commented about this before, there does not seem to be many England players in people's Lions XV. For the record; Care, Foden/Brown, Tuilagi, Cole, Hartley, Robshaw are the capable starters. The only nailed on one there though is Care. The rest of the positions are up for grabs. I'm certain that after the 6 Nations some England locks will be in contention. A lot of candiates in back-row and back 3 though.

Nailed on in what sense? Current form? If that's the case then I think you can add Cole to the list, but Jones could easily come back before June.

You can have Cole aswell then. The last thing we need is another weeping England fan, so just have Cole as your starter.

We do feel a bit 'Millwall' at times here in land, but we are an altogether better class than Millwall.
Mother country, invented the game, 'English' language, only NH RWC win.
Like teenagers need a parent to rebel against, or a big brother to compete with, England fulfill the 'hate' role of the English speaking rugby family. Only France seem not to care too much, as the main non Commonwealth rugby nation. Argentina has a different set of issues, although I think they quite like the mother country of rugby.

Morgannwg wrote:

thomh wrote:

Morgannwg wrote:Tiger/Chief, perhaps you missed Matt Dawson select his Lions XV? Big lack of England players there! He must be biased. That said, and I've commented about this before, there does not seem to be many England players in people's Lions XV. For the record; Care, Foden/Brown, Tuilagi, Cole, Hartley, Robshaw are the capable starters. The only nailed on one there though is Care. The rest of the positions are up for grabs. I'm certain that after the 6 Nations some England locks will be in contention. A lot of candiates in back-row and back 3 though.

Nailed on in what sense? Current form? If that's the case then I think you can add Cole to the list, but Jones could easily come back before June.

You can have Cole aswell then. The last thing we need is another weeping England fan, so just have Cole as your starter.

How generous . Talking of nailed on welshes, i'm looking forward to seeing Warbs in action down under again .... for the 2 minutes of field time he sees before he pukes or dislocates a finger nail.

AlastairW wrote:

Morgannwg wrote:

thomh wrote:

Morgannwg wrote:Tiger/Chief, perhaps you missed Matt Dawson select his Lions XV? Big lack of England players there! He must be biased. That said, and I've commented about this before, there does not seem to be many England players in people's Lions XV. For the record; Care, Foden/Brown, Tuilagi, Cole, Hartley, Robshaw are the capable starters. The only nailed on one there though is Care. The rest of the positions are up for grabs. I'm certain that after the 6 Nations some England locks will be in contention. A lot of candiates in back-row and back 3 though.

Nailed on in what sense? Current form? If that's the case then I think you can add Cole to the list, but Jones could easily come back before June.

You can have Cole aswell then. The last thing we need is another weeping England fan, so just have Cole as your starter.

How generous . Talking of nailed on welshes, i'm looking forward to seeing Warbs in action down under again .... for the 2 minutes of field time he sees before he pukes or dislocates a finger nail.

Do you think he's nailed on for that 7 jersey considering the competition in the back-row? Most of us welshies, believe he is not nailed for the Wales 7 jersey, despite what Howley thinks.

Nice to see you happy, in a jolly mood in regard to injury. That sums you up well, rubbing it in that Sam has been injury prone so early in his career which can leave considerable physical and pyschological damage to a player who plays rugby for a profession and for love of the game. How disgusting are you? I've had two knee operations (ACL) and I'm left with a bad leg and hamstring. Firstly, it's extremely painful when suffering an injury. Secondly, hospitals are awful. And third, rehab is long. Do you find this amusing?

Here we go again, another Lions political meltdown. Perhaps the concept of the four nations "uniting" is just a romantic but flawed notion and the Lions should be abandoned and replaced with three match tours of each of the constituent nations?

I'm English and I wouldn't have Hartley anywhere near a Lions jersey, massively overrated.

Best is well ahead of him (and any other NH hook currently) and hopefully Ford will pick up a bit of form too.

Morgannwg wrote:

AlastairW wrote:

Morgannwg wrote:

thomh wrote:

Morgannwg wrote:Tiger/Chief, perhaps you missed Matt Dawson select his Lions XV? Big lack of England players there! He must be biased. That said, and I've commented about this before, there does not seem to be many England players in people's Lions XV. For the record; Care, Foden/Brown, Tuilagi, Cole, Hartley, Robshaw are the capable starters. The only nailed on one there though is Care. The rest of the positions are up for grabs. I'm certain that after the 6 Nations some England locks will be in contention. A lot of candiates in back-row and back 3 though.

Nailed on in what sense? Current form? If that's the case then I think you can add Cole to the list, but Jones could easily come back before June.

You can have Cole aswell then. The last thing we need is another weeping England fan, so just have Cole as your starter.

How generous . Talking of nailed on welshes, i'm looking forward to seeing Warbs in action down under again .... for the 2 minutes of field time he sees before he pukes or dislocates a finger nail.

Do you think he's nailed on for that 7 jersey considering the competition in the back-row? Most of us welshies, believe he is not nailed for the Wales 7 jersey, despite what Howley thinks.

Nice to see you happy, in a jolly mood in regard to injury. That sums you up well, rubbing it in that Sam has been injury prone so early in his career which can leave considerable physical and pyschological damage to a player who plays rugby for a profession and for love of the game. How disgusting are you? I've had two knee operations (ACL) and I'm left with a bad leg and hamstring. Firstly, it's extremely painful when suffering an injury. Secondly, hospitals are awful. And third, rehab is long. Do you find this amusing?

oooooo look, a deluded welsh on a high horse, how mundane and un-original. I'd best start weeping about England we can get 2 stero-types on the go. Dish it but can't take it Morg; you're a joke. Thanks for the giggles though.

Lets just try keep everyone happy:

01 Cian Healy
02 Ross Ford
03 Dan Cole
04 Courtney Lawes
05 Richie Gray
06 Stephen Ferris
07 Sam Warbuton
08 Toby Falatau
09 Chris Cussiter
10 Jonathan Sexton
11 Christian Wade
12 Jonathan Davies
13 Manu Tuilagi
14 Tim Visser
15 Rob Kearney

Coach: Warren Gatland

England, Scotland and Ireland get 4 each. Wales get 3 and the Coach.

We are all happy (until we lose the tests and we are all sad)

Lions fans here always coagulate into sectarian friction blocks. We hope our players bond better on the actual tour. No doubt the touring fans buddy up too in the bars and hotels but I have not been on tour, so am not sure. Anyone been on a B&I tour ? How is the B&I fan behaviour out there ?

Meanwhile back here in this virtual world, the keyboard warriors feel safe to hurl banter without it impacting on the actual Lions. We naturally all have our favourite national champions, but we all get behind the 'Team' once it is out on the paddock.

Hmmm... this thread lasted longer than expected

EngInAuck wrote:

BelfastDickVet wrote:I don't see how Hartley is being touted as a starter, Best is the better player, he is known for being a very good scrummager, his line out stats in last years HEC where immense, his work in loose is simaler to that of a decent backrow but most of all its his attitude and leadership.

I think Best will tour, but..... to say he is better than Hartley because he is a better scrummager?

Did you watch the England Vs Ireland Game in this years 6 nations ? you didnt .....

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZXmC_fku15Y


Him and the rest of his front row were completely dominated by Hartley and Co. Mainly in the scrum and in the majority of other aspects of the game.

IMO Hartley has to start with best on the bench

Hartley is the worst Home NAtion starting hooker. He shouldn't tour.
That domination was down to Tom Court being shoite, England had the edge at first, but that was down to the starting 3 playing with a fractured rib (so I've been led to believe).
That's a poor argument there.

Red, I like that - apart from Cusiter - but I appreciate what you are tying to do

gregortree wrote:Red, I like that - apart from Cusiter - but I appreciate what you are tying to do

I wouldnt dream of doing that in a bajillion years. I think quotas are an evil in sport.

Making the point that if you start trying to please everyone you'll get nowhere.

I also think that there are more important things that picking starting internationals.

beshocked wrote:Ashton and Hartley also have the similarity that no one is really pushing for their England spots even in their absence.

It's much better for a player to have a true contender breathing down their neck. It's a problem I think Easter had.

These guys need the proper danger that their England spots are under threat. I think this would push them harder.

Look at Brown and Goode - both are excellent competition for each other and both are in good form.

i'm pretty sure Tom Youngs would have something to say about that. If he tided up his lineout throwing, he'd certainly be 'as good as', if not better than Hartley.

gregortree wrote:Red, I like that - apart from Cusiter - but I appreciate what you are tying to do

You could change for Rory Lawson

red_stag wrote:Lets just try keep everyone happy:

Okay so;

15 Dan Evans
14 Jamie Smith (Ireland)
13 Adam Hughes
12 Pat Leach
11 Tom Prydie
10 Steffan Jones
9 Joe Bedford (English)
1 Phil Price
2 Sam Parry
3 Dan Way (English)
4 Ian Nimmo (Scottish Qualified)
5 Rob Sidoli
6 Danny Lydiate
7 Lewis Evans
8 Toby Faletau

All the nations covered. I think I've cracked it.

I'd say you couldn't argue with North and Cuthbert on the wings. Cuthbert has been superb for Wales and when he get's the ball eventually from a dire pack at the Blues. Don't think you could argue with him starting although I love Bowe.

North brings that natural world class attributes to the team. He's a certainty for me to start, the most exiting winger in the NH for quite some time.

Rev, I lurve it.

Jimpy wrote:

beshocked wrote:Ashton and Hartley also have the similarity that no one is really pushing for their England spots even in their absence.

It's much better for a player to have a true contender breathing down their neck. It's a problem I think Easter had.

These guys need the proper danger that their England spots are under threat. I think this would push them harder.

Look at Brown and Goode - both are excellent competition for each other and both are in good form.

i'm pretty sure Tom Youngs & Tom Lindsay would have something to say about that. If they tided up their lineout throwing, they'd certainly be 'as good as', if not better than Hartley.

I made a slight change to that Jimpy if you dont mind...im a big fan of Lindsay.

Re: Lions Test XV Prediction game.
by Biltong on Mon Sep 10, 2012 10:13 am

1 Healy
2 Best
3 Cole
4 Gray
5 O'Connell
6 Rennie
7 Robshaw
8 Denton
9 Phillips
10 Sexton
11 North
12 Roberts
13 Davies
14 Bowe
15 Kearney

Bench:
Jones
Ford
Ross
Ferris
Blair
Flood
Tuilagi

I selected this team on a previous thread.

I have no bias toward any team. Sometimes the individuals just stack up in the wrong way for any particular country, I don't think it is being Biased

Biltong for 606 Lions manager !

Isnt Rennie out for a year? Or did i read that wrong?

Gray needs to get the hell out of Sale...we want him at his best...and surely now we can move on from Phillips?

gregortree wrote:Biltong for 606 Lions manager !

Is it a paid job?

Denton's 1 season wonder looks over the way he's playing - Can't see him making the squad - Ben Morgan would be a much better option although I can see Heaslip, Faletau and Waldrom in the mix

CH

Double Mod pay Biltong !

That is: 2 x 0 = ?

gregortree wrote:Double Mod pay Biltong !

That is: 2 x 0 = ?

= Nothing, nada, zip, zero, zigalo, niks, for mahala, squat.

RubyGuby wrote:Denton's 1 season wonder looks over the way he's playing - Can't see him making the squad - Ben Morgan would be a much better option although I can see Heaslip, Faletau and Waldrom in the mix

CH

God i hope not...i cringe seeing him in the flamin England squad....