England v Aus - KO 14:30 Sat 17th NOV at HQ - Match Thread/Build Up etc....

[HERSH]

First topic message reminder :

Feel free to discuss this game and any other aspect involving the England Rugby team good or bad as your opinions count and you won't be judged (by me) if you go against England, but do try to give a reason!

Please respect other posters opinions

Game 1: Eng v Fiji
Game 2: Eng v Aus
Game 3: Eng v SA
Game 4: Eng v NZ

England team to face Australia:

Alex Goode
Chris Ashton
Manusamoa Tuilagi
Brad Barritt
Charlie Sharples
Toby Flood
Danny Care
Joe Marler
Tom Youngs,
Dan Cole
Tom Palmer
Geoff Parling
Tom Johnson,
Chris Robshaw
Thomas Waldrom
Replacements: David Paice
David Wilson
Mako Vunipola
Joe Launchbury
Tom Wood
Ben Youngs
Owen Farrell
Mike Brown

[BristolDave]

They appeared slow out of the blocks and never got going. Lancaster said it was their best week training - perhaps they left it on the training paddock??

[Hood83]

Good post I agree with from the Telegraph site:

"Warning, long post

Ok first things first, congratulations, to a depleted but wholly committed Australia, they were stronger at the breakdown, stronger in the collision, savvy at the scrum, and showed more game sense, and thoroughly deserved the win.
This result has hopefully done England a favour, for it is clear now the team sheet needs some tweaking
The most frustrating aspects of this match, as an England fan, were as follows,
England showed that their passing and distribution is second class, too many times the ball was shuffled through pairs of hands in the back line with the final receiver taking the ball from a static position, to run into a lined up defence, which has spent the last 3 to 4 months defending against South Africa and New Zealand, with NZ possessing the most fluid, intelligent attacking game on the planet.

The poor passing was prevalent throughout the match and Farrell with England’s last attacking chance of the match throws and absolute shocker and Tuilagi knocks on.
Too many passes were stoppers, (behind the target) therefore slowing all momentum.
There was no vigour, or zip to the England attack, things must change in my opinion, bring Tuilagi to 12 and put someone with an outside break at 13 Barratt and Tuilagi, are not showing any attacking threat other than the crash ball bang it up the middle, there is no guile, or rapier like incisive breaks.
Also what is more worrying is that England showed a lack of a Plan B or if they did they did not execute it well.

The scrum struggled, all afternoon, Marler up against Alexander, came second, the tight head’s nous and savvy proved too much for Joe, he should have been replaced at the interval in my opinion, as the same penalties were given against him immediately after the break, he was constantly tricked on the bind and had no clue as to counter it.
The only time England got a shove was when Mako had a surge, but as soon as Alexander lost ground he was replaced. England badly missed Cords.

Basically in my opinion what lost England the game was making the wrong choices at the wrong time, tapping penalties, when kicks were the better option to cut down the lead. The try from the tap penalty was the right call in the first half, but going for the corner and the catch and drive when the points were there for the kick, was a risk especially given England were second best in the forwards. Plus Youngs tap into nothing in the 2nd half
I think Wood needs to start for Johnson he was invisible today, and Launchberry has got to be worth a start.
Waldrom had a better game this week but I am still left feeling there are better options, he gave a lot of penalties away, despite showing well on the carry.

The lack of savvy is not surprising, especially when you realise that Nathan Sharpe has more international caps than England’s forwards combined. However that does not excuse, the complete lack of basic skills on display, passing, catching, running from deep, giving the ball carrier options and for Christs sake somebody tell the ball carriers to stop running diagonally on the attack, it shuts off space and allows the drift defence time to shuffle the ball into touch. I saw this time and again, I was coached this at U12 level. Catty needs to throw a few f*%ks into the backs either that or someone needs to throw a few into Catty."

Have you seen the Twickenham fans? There's no shortage of cords

[Guest]

So were are we at England fans?
Fill in the gap"England are ........................"

In a transition?
Rebuilding?
Young team?
Youthful team?
Inexperienced?
Fluid?
Attacking team?
Grind out a win kind of team?
Settled?
Work in progress?
Building for the world cup?
or something else?

Just want to gauge the general consensus with the fans, i find it exhausting to keep up with the spin words.

Well i see the buzz word in the media is "Rebuilding" bloody hilarious. they are a settled team who are pretty crap and haven't won anything of note,
Lancaster looks clueless

[BristolDave]

Good post I agree with from the Telegraph site:

"Warning, long post

Ok first things first, congratulations, to a depleted but wholly committed Australia, they were stronger at the breakdown, stronger in the collision, savvy at the scrum, and showed more game sense, and thoroughly deserved the win.
This result has hopefully done England a favour, for it is clear now the team sheet needs some tweaking
The most frustrating aspects of this match, as an England fan, were as follows,
England showed that their passing and distribution is second class, too many times the ball was shuffled through pairs of hands in the back line with the final receiver taking the ball from a static position, to run into a lined up defence, which has spent the last 3 to 4 months defending against South Africa and New Zealand, with NZ possessing the most fluid, intelligent attacking game on the planet.

The poor passing was prevalent throughout the match and Farrell with England’s last attacking chance of the match throws and absolute shocker and Tuilagi knocks on.
Too many passes were stoppers, (behind the target) therefore slowing all momentum.
There was no vigour, or zip to the England attack, things must change in my opinion, bring Tuilagi to 12 and put someone with an outside break at 13 Barratt and Tuilagi, are not showing any attacking threat other than the crash ball bang it up the middle, there is no guile, or rapier like incisive breaks.
Also what is more worrying is that England showed a lack of a Plan B or if they did they did not execute it well.

The scrum struggled, all afternoon, Marler up against Alexander, came second, the tight head’s nous and savvy proved too much for Joe, he should have been replaced at the interval in my opinion, as the same penalties were given against him immediately after the break, he was constantly tricked on the bind and had no clue as to counter it.
The only time England got a shove was when Mako had a surge, but as soon as Alexander lost ground he was replaced. England badly missed Cords.

Basically in my opinion what lost England the game was making the wrong choices at the wrong time, tapping penalties, when kicks were the better option to cut down the lead. The try from the tap penalty was the right call in the first half, but going for the corner and the catch and drive when the points were there for the kick, was a risk especially given England were second best in the forwards. Plus Youngs tap into nothing in the 2nd half
I think Wood needs to start for Johnson he was invisible today, and Launchberry has got to be worth a start.
Waldrom had a better game this week but I am still left feeling there are better options, he gave a lot of penalties away, despite showing well on the carry.

The lack of savvy is not surprising, especially when you realise that Nathan Sharpe has more international caps than England’s forwards combined. However that does not excuse, the complete lack of basic skills on display, passing, catching, running from deep, giving the ball carrier options and for Christs sake somebody tell the ball carriers to stop running diagonally on the attack, it shuts off space and allows the drift defence time to shuffle the ball into touch. I saw this time and again, I was coached this at U12 level. Catty needs to throw a few f*%ks into the backs either that or someone needs to throw a few into Catty."

Have you seen the Twickenham fans? There's no shortage of cords

[Guest]

HERSH,HERSH where art thou HERSH?

[anotherworldofpain]

I was disappointed Ashton wasn't playing today. I'm sure he would have made a difference, he always seems to score against Australia, doesn't he?

[Guest]

The Aussies are scared of Ashton,he was told to leave the pitch to make the contest even.
Also the TMO heard about how many big hard brothers Manu has so he thought it would be best to award his non try.

[nathan]

So were are we at England fans?
Fill in the gap"England are ........................"

In a transition?
Rebuilding?
Young team?
Youthful team?
Inexperienced?
Fluid?
Attacking team?
Grind out a win kind of team?
Settled?
Work in progress?
Building for the world cup?
or something else?

Just want to gauge the general consensus with the fans, i find it exhausting to keep up with the spin words.

Well i see the buzz word in the media is "Rebuilding" bloody hilarious. they are a settled team who are pretty crap and haven't won anything of note,
Lancaster looks clueless

Grow up view, I understand your doing it because a select few wind you guys up but those select few aren't in this thread.

[Guest]

True nathan, the armchair fans are not here.
That's kind what gets me, i support Wales win or lose and happily chat on a forum about it even after that hard pill to swallow A.K.A the Samoa game.

Plenty if idiots rubbing it in the face,telling us how dominant England are after beating Fiji.

[BristolDave]

For me the disappointing thing is that despite the rivalry things are not looking good for the lions when Aus get their injured players back. Hopefully Wales can do all NH a favour by beating them shortly

[Guest]

If Wales did and it is a huge IF! beat Australia this autumn all would be forgotten,they know that,maybe that might get them to pull their fingers out.

[BristolDave]

Hopefully at least 1 NH team can pull off a surprise in the next couple of weeks to give us all a lift.

[tigerleghorn]

Good post I agree with from the Telegraph site:

"Warning, long post

Ok first things first, congratulations, to a depleted but wholly committed Australia, they were stronger at the breakdown, stronger in the collision, savvy at the scrum, and showed more game sense, and thoroughly deserved the win.
This result has hopefully done England a favour, for it is clear now the team sheet needs some tweaking
The most frustrating aspects of this match, as an England fan, were as follows,
England showed that their passing and distribution is second class, too many times the ball was shuffled through pairs of hands in the back line with the final receiver taking the ball from a static position, to run into a lined up defence, which has spent the last 3 to 4 months defending against South Africa and New Zealand, with NZ possessing the most fluid, intelligent attacking game on the planet.

The poor passing was prevalent throughout the match and Farrell with England’s last attacking chance of the match throws and absolute shocker and Tuilagi knocks on.
Too many passes were stoppers, (behind the target) therefore slowing all momentum.
There was no vigour, or zip to the England attack, things must change in my opinion, bring Tuilagi to 12 and put someone with an outside break at 13 Barratt and Tuilagi, are not showing any attacking threat other than the crash ball bang it up the middle, there is no guile, or rapier like incisive breaks.
Also what is more worrying is that England showed a lack of a Plan B or if they did they did not execute it well.

The scrum struggled, all afternoon, Marler up against Alexander, came second, the tight head’s nous and savvy proved too much for Joe, he should have been replaced at the interval in my opinion, as the same penalties were given against him immediately after the break, he was constantly tricked on the bind and had no clue as to counter it.
The only time England got a shove was when Mako had a surge, but as soon as Alexander lost ground he was replaced. England badly missed Cords.

Basically in my opinion what lost England the game was making the wrong choices at the wrong time, tapping penalties, when kicks were the better option to cut down the lead. The try from the tap penalty was the right call in the first half, but going for the corner and the catch and drive when the points were there for the kick, was a risk especially given England were second best in the forwards. Plus Youngs tap into nothing in the 2nd half
I think Wood needs to start for Johnson he was invisible today, and Launchberry has got to be worth a start.
Waldrom had a better game this week but I am still left feeling there are better options, he gave a lot of penalties away, despite showing well on the carry.

The lack of savvy is not surprising, especially when you realise that Nathan Sharpe has more international caps than England’s forwards combined. However that does not excuse, the complete lack of basic skills on display, passing, catching, running from deep, giving the ball carrier options and for Christs sake somebody tell the ball carriers to stop running diagonally on the attack, it shuts off space and allows the drift defence time to shuffle the ball into touch. I saw this time and again, I was coached this at U12 level. Catty needs to throw a few f*%ks into the backs either that or someone needs to throw a few into Catty."

You dont seem to mension Care. What did you think of his performance today?

[BristolDave]

As a former scrum half I think both of them struggled with the ball they were getting. Compare to NZ, their SH gets fast,clean ball. We just get a mess with forwards in the way. Number of times Care and Youngs had people in the way and that hampers anything else that we try to do

[yappysnap]

Yeah both had legs and arms all over the place and then once the ball was out forwards just stood next to them looking confused.

England have gone back to rucking at the ball rather then over it and we're paying the price for that with crap quality ball to use and our backs having to play with the whole oppo backline in their faces.

[BristolDave]

Agree yappy

[ChequeredJersey]

Good post I agree with from the Telegraph site:

"Warning, long post

Ok first things first, congratulations, to a depleted but wholly committed Australia, they were stronger at the breakdown, stronger in the collision, savvy at the scrum, and showed more game sense, and thoroughly deserved the win.
This result has hopefully done England a favour, for it is clear now the team sheet needs some tweaking
The most frustrating aspects of this match, as an England fan, were as follows,
England showed that their passing and distribution is second class, too many times the ball was shuffled through pairs of hands in the back line with the final receiver taking the ball from a static position, to run into a lined up defence, which has spent the last 3 to 4 months defending against South Africa and New Zealand, with NZ possessing the most fluid, intelligent attacking game on the planet.

The poor passing was prevalent throughout the match and Farrell with England’s last attacking chance of the match throws and absolute shocker and Tuilagi knocks on.
Too many passes were stoppers, (behind the target) therefore slowing all momentum.
There was no vigour, or zip to the England attack, things must change in my opinion, bring Tuilagi to 12 and put someone with an outside break at 13 Barratt and Tuilagi, are not showing any attacking threat other than the crash ball bang it up the middle, there is no guile, or rapier like incisive breaks.
Also what is more worrying is that England showed a lack of a Plan B or if they did they did not execute it well.

The scrum struggled, all afternoon, Marler up against Alexander, came second, the tight head’s nous and savvy proved too much for Joe, he should have been replaced at the interval in my opinion, as the same penalties were given against him immediately after the break, he was constantly tricked on the bind and had no clue as to counter it.
The only time England got a shove was when Mako had a surge, but as soon as Alexander lost ground he was replaced. England badly missed Cords.

Basically in my opinion what lost England the game was making the wrong choices at the wrong time, tapping penalties, when kicks were the better option to cut down the lead. The try from the tap penalty was the right call in the first half, but going for the corner and the catch and drive when the points were there for the kick, was a risk especially given England were second best in the forwards. Plus Youngs tap into nothing in the 2nd half
I think Wood needs to start for Johnson he was invisible today, and Launchberry has got to be worth a start.
Waldrom had a better game this week but I am still left feeling there are better options, he gave a lot of penalties away, despite showing well on the carry.

The lack of savvy is not surprising, especially when you realise that Nathan Sharpe has more international caps than England’s forwards combined. However that does not excuse, the complete lack of basic skills on display, passing, catching, running from deep, giving the ball carrier options and for Christs sake somebody tell the ball carriers to stop running diagonally on the attack, it shuts off space and allows the drift defence time to shuffle the ball into touch. I saw this time and again, I was coached this at U12 level. Catty needs to throw a few f*%ks into the backs either that or someone needs to throw a few into Catty."

You dont seem to mension Care. What did you think of his performance today?

Well, this is me merely quoting a comment from a different forum (well, the comments on the telegraph rugby section). Some of the opinions coincide with mine but these are not my opinions. As for Care, I thought he passed reasonably well, was risky at times and he did of course make those 2 poor kicks (though he also set up out "try"). On first reflection I thought he was very good, on second he was fine but better than Youngs, though I understand the arguments of those who disagree

[rainbow-warrior]

My world how the worm turns within such a short time. Where is the one who virtually commentated on the Welsh game? Where hersh? not got the guts to face up. England on par with Wales no more.

[HERSH]

A lot of negative and rather abusive comments on here since Aus won yesterday, why I don't really know? at the end of the day we are rugby fans not football fans.

1st of all well played Aus, to bounce back after last weeks drubbing shows tremendous character, but then again it wasn't that surprising seeing as only a few weeks ago they drew with the best team in the world, only a fool would have written off Aus and imo I can only see them getting stronger as their tour goes on.

Aus are ranked higher than England for a reason, but never the less it was rather disappointing seeing as we had our chances to take points I can't help but think another Captain would have taken a shot at goal, one rule at this level is to keep the score board ticking over England failed to do that as they wanted another try, who's to blame for that? Robshaw IMO has to take the responsibility.

Overall if England learn this lesson then it will only make us a better team roll on SA, and roll on a home nation NH win against a SH opponent.

[Guest]

Ok HERSH so we won't be negative now because it suits you, also the "we are in this together" comments at the end i love it, us v the SH, you should become a politician HERSH

[HERSH]

It's true view the home nations have to start performing it's pathetic.

I'd love to see Wales beat the All Blacks just as much I'd like to see Eng beat SA next weekend.

[Guest]

Well then on that note i wish you luck.

[HERSH]

Stranger things have happened View.

[TJ1]

and roll on a home nation NH win against a SH opponent.

Scotland were the last to do so :-) Just a wee reminder. In case you had forgotten

[Warthog]

WHAT ???!! England LOST ??? After their fantastic triumphant thumping domination of Fiji ??? How is this possible???

Great result and maybe the likes of HERSH will crawl back under his little rock and have a cry into his warm beer....

In other news, Ireland B team nil Fiji, but obviously the English spin machine will dismiss this as Fiji being real bad (which they are).. no such comments after England played them...

A dose of reality now, my friends?

[EnglishReign]

Tuilagi needs to be released back to Tigers to work on distribution. I know he will get some plaudits for the try, but any other 13 would've passed out wide to be sure. He just hinders any attacking flow we have by not passing.

I would love Lancaster to be brave and play 12. Twelvetrees 13. JJ against SA. But he can stick with Waldrom, cos Morgan's on fire and we play Sale next week

[Hound_of_Harrow]

Oh dear, the face of gloating. Ugly mutha, ain't it.

[yappysnap]

Would anyone else like to see Wood start at 6 and Haskell brought on to the bench so that we at least have an option to change 8 if we want to?

Otherwise just get Vunipola B straight in there, his brother's taken to internationals like the proverbial fish and I don't see why Bill won't be the same.

[Pete C (Kiwireddevil)]

WHAT ???!! England LOST ??? After their fantastic triumphant thumping domination of Fiji ??? How is this possible???

Great result and maybe the likes of HERSH will crawl back under his little rock and have a cry into his warm beer....

In other news, Ireland B team nil Fiji, but obviously the English spin machine will dismiss this as Fiji being real bad (which they are).. no such comments after England played them...

A dose of reality now, my pommy friends?

Ah more schadenfreude. And as with the English Friday night and the welsh last night, when exhibited publicly it reflects worse on the exhibitor.

[kiakahaaotearoa]

I blame the organisers. Of course this is going to happen if you give supporters one full day to gloat. Then the vitriol from the first side is given time to build up and reprisal attacks occur.

They should be scheduling these matches at the same time so the simultaneous gloating gets cancelled out.

[ChequeredJersey]

WHAT ???!! England LOST ??? After their fantastic triumphant thumping domination of Fiji ??? How is this possible???

Great result and maybe the likes of HERSH will crawl back under his little rock and have a cry into his warm beer....

In other news, Ireland B team nil Fiji, but obviously the English spin machine will dismiss this as Fiji being real bad (which they are).. no such comments after England played them...

A dose of reality now, my pommy friends?

You know you are also a Pommy, right?

[yappysnap]

WHAT ???!! England LOST ??? After their fantastic triumphant thumping domination of Fiji ??? How is this possible???

Great result and maybe the likes of HERSH will crawl back under his little rock and have a cry into his warm beer....

In other news, Ireland B team nil Fiji, but obviously the English spin machine will dismiss this as Fiji being real bad (which they are).. no such comments after England played them...

A dose of reality now, my pommy friends?

Ah more schadenfreude. And as with the English Friday night and the welsh last night, when exhibited publicly it reflects worse on the exhibitor.

Why does this not happen during the Rugby Championship Pete? Are kids just not aloud on the internet in the SH?

[Guest]

They even wheeled out Clive Woodward on the SKY team to help gloat

It was a huge shot in the foot by full time

[yappysnap]

Yep there's another one of the children...

[majesticimperialman]

So were are we at England fans?
Fill in the gap"England are ........................"

In a transition?
Rebuilding?
Young team?
Youthful team?
Inexperienced?
Fluid?
Attacking team?
Grind out a win kind of team?
Settled?
Work in progress?
Building for the world cup?
or something else?

Just want to gauge the general consensus with the fans, i find it exhausting to keep up with the spin words.

Well i see the buzz word in the media is "Rebuilding" bloody hilarious. they are a settled team who are pretty crap and haven't won anything of note,
Lancaster looks clueless

So did Howely against Samoa.

[mbernz]

Would anyone else like to see Wood start at 6 and Haskell brought on to the bench so that we at least have an option to change 8 if we want to?

Otherwise just get Vunipola B straight in there, his brother's taken to internationals like the proverbial fish and I don't see why Bill won't be the same.

Wood looked good when he came on, I'd happily start him. Haskell has been pretty average this season though, I'm less sure he is the answer for the bench. I'm not a huge fan of Waldrom qualifying for England, but I don't agree with a lot of the criticism from some of how he played against Oz, I think he was possibly our best backrow performer. I'm also not sure Morgan is the messiah many make him out to be, but I think it's worth a punt having him on the bench if Wood starts and we want to see how Morgan does against the Boks again, Waldrom can go to blindside if one of the flankers gets injured, or Launchbury could cover there.

[gregortree]

Please can somebody start a 'GLOATING' thread for the kids to have no holds barred gloat fest safely in the sand pit.

Then the grown ups can stay on here to talk about rugby.
And Good luck (needed) to all B&I teams for next two weeks.

[Biltong]

WHAT ???!! England LOST ??? After their fantastic triumphant thumping domination of Fiji ??? How is this possible???

Great result and maybe the likes of HERSH will crawl back under his little rock and have a cry into his warm beer....

In other news, Ireland B team nil Fiji, but obviously the English spin machine will dismiss this as Fiji being real bad (which they are).. no such comments after England played them...

A dose of reality now, my pommy friends?

Ah more schadenfreude. And as with the English Friday night and the welsh last night, when exhibited publicly it reflects worse on the exhibitor.

Why does this not happen during the Rugby Championship Pete? Are kids just not aloud on the internet in the SH?

Good one yappy, our kids are allowed on the internet, just not allowed to wum.

[gregortree]

Yappy - 'allowed' - and no

[bluestonevedder]

Incredibly disappointing display from England. No imagination, no grunt, no balls basically.

Honest to God, how hard is it to hit the ball at speed? I'm fed up of seeing England players handed the ball from a static start, with only a few centimeters of space to churn up some speed and power. You go nowhere.

I don't understand what England are being coached offensively. Hit the ball from 10 meters away, smash the gainline or suck in a few more defenders to create space outside of you, fast ball out to the backs, where they can actually take advantage of the available space and possibly execute a flowing back move.

Of course, it still remains to be seen whether or not our backs know any moves.

[OzT]

Yappy - 'allowed' - and no

They could've been noisy as well too...

[gregortree]

OzT,
The Welsh kids got very noisy on Saturday night and into Sunday.
They need a special place to shout, away from the grown ups.

[Jimpy]

They even wheeled out Clive Woodward on the SKY team to help gloat

It was a huge shot in the foot by full time

Is your Mother a weight lifter?

SCW didn't gloat at all, in fact he readily highlighted England's deficiancies.

[RubyGuby]

"SCW didn't gloat at all, in fact he readily highlighted England's deficiancies."

I think that's what he means by Woodward gloating

[gregortree]

'Deficiences' (sp) fair enough, we need to examine these honestly.
Essential for progress to be made. SCW might be able to help, although he quit HQ once on this issue.

(Gloaters can switch over now, tune into that special 'GLOATERS' thread which is being set up for you)

Rugby adults - stay tuned to this channel and the RSA one for grown up rugby talk

[Warthog]

Seriously though. It is a funny old game...

England beat Fiji so convincingly... I just don't understand....

[Warthog]

[gregortree]

ok Warthog, you can switch over now

[Warthog]

*Switch*

[Guest]

They even wheeled out Clive Woodward on the SKY team to help gloat

It was a huge shot in the foot by full time

Is your Mother a weight lifter?

SCW didn't gloat at all, in fact he readily highlighted England's deficiancies.

Nope,just a normal mum.

[Sponsored content]