England v Aus - KO 14:30 Sat 17th NOV at HQ - Match Thread/Build Up etc....

[HERSH]

First topic message reminder :

Feel free to discuss this game and any other aspect involving the England Rugby team good or bad as your opinions count and you won't be judged (by me) if you go against England, but do try to give a reason!

Please respect other posters opinions

Game 1: Eng v Fiji
Game 2: Eng v Aus
Game 3: Eng v SA
Game 4: Eng v NZ

England team to face Australia:

Alex Goode
Chris Ashton
Manusamoa Tuilagi
Brad Barritt
Charlie Sharples
Toby Flood
Danny Care
Joe Marler
Tom Youngs,
Dan Cole
Tom Palmer
Geoff Parling
Tom Johnson,
Chris Robshaw
Thomas Waldrom
Replacements: David Paice
David Wilson
Mako Vunipola
Joe Launchbury
Tom Wood
Ben Youngs
Owen Farrell
Mike Brown

[propdavid_london]

Or like harlequins open and flowing game of pace and off loads!

[Hood83]

I know people don't like Waldrom, and it wasn't his best game on Saturday, but looking at some of his stats from ESPN gives a different story: 13 passes, 17 carries, 48 metres, 2 defenders beaten, 2 offloads, 2 turnovers, 10 out of 11 tackles.

That is a shedload of work. If he can put that kind of shift in without overly impressing, then imagine what he could do on a good day. Worth sticking with for Aus I think.

Exactly the kind of workmanlike performance that caused everyone to moan about Nick Easter for 4 years and Lancaster to refuse to pick him no matter how much more experienced, better, thinner he is than Morgan or english he is is than Waldrom

I remember when Crane got a game for England and there were many bemoaning his performance afterwards. Didn't seem to matter that he'd actually made more tackles, yards, carries etc than anyone else at the time he went off. I think some people forget sometimes that you need balance, and you can't just go for the most explosive/quickest player in each position you need to get some grafters in as well.

Was this the Oz game? In which case i'd be amazed if the stats read anything other than Carries: 12, Metres made: -20 metres. Tackles: 1...you get the idea. He looked terrible. That said, and in is defence, the whole team looked dreadful and it was his first game at that level I think.

I'm still confident that Crane is not international level.

[Peter Seabiscuit Wheeler]

I hope youre not trying to suggest that Waldrom wins turnovers on a regular basis? Thsi is the guy whos own coach said he strugglesd to pick the ball up because his stomach gets in the way.

Ha, nope, hence my 'This is not me saying Waldrom is any good'. He can however, and in spite of his gut, run. A basic aspect of the game Easter's never mastered. I don't need or want Pierre Spies level of pace, just someone who's lack of pace doesn't mean he's a pointless bystander against teams that play at speed e.g. the Southern Hemisphere teams.

Right but given the vaguely relaistic choices are between him, Waldrom (who has the acceleration of a slowly accelerating thing) and Morgan who makes Chris Budgen look like the kind of guy who can go full out for 80 minutes, "bloody Dowson" and a tin of custard .....
Sure it would be nice to pick Chuck Norris at 8 but in lieu of him you pick from the players that actually exist. Unless you count James Haskell.
The argument wasnt "is Nick Easter flawless" it was " would he be a better choice than the ones currently in the squad". Waldrom doesnt offer anything that the current fired up Easter doesnt, whereas Easter brings more agility and (again the reason he was bought up initialy) the experience and leadership (however questionable that mightve been a year or so ago) the side so obvious lacks. Easter served England well for the most part through his vcareer and since getting dropped has been the best 8 in the Jeff.
Its not world changing or anything but yknow its good to have a whinge even when things are going fairly well.

[Big]

Was this the Oz game? In which case i'd be amazed if the stats read anything other than Carries: 12, Metres made: -20 metres. Tackles: 1...you get the idea. He looked terrible. That said, and in is defence, the whole team looked dreadful and it was his first game at that level I think.

I'm still confident that Crane is not international level.

I am indeed - they're not too hard to find... http://www.espnscrum.com/statsguru/rugby/match/98399.html

Okay, I'd forgotten Wilkinson on the tackle count. But from the pack no-one else had done more when Crane went off a little after 50 mins in.

You'll note that I didn't say he was great/internanational level - but given the absolute mare the entire rest of the team had that day I was very very surprised at the time that some singled him out for criticism. Very harsh given he was a) a 23 year old given his first start, b) had done more work than anyone else in the pack and c) we were actually winning while he was on the pitch!

[thebluesmancometh]

I think this game will highlight how far England have come in reality.

All this talk of improvements will be shown. I think England are favourites in my eyes and anything less than a win will be hugely dissapointing.

[lostinwales]

Easter was also pretty useful in the lineout.

[aitchw]

Just too used to the false dawns to be convinced about the outcome of this one. Whilst very happy that progress is being made and new caps are being awarded I can't see yet a squad that is laying ghosts to rest and producing creative, intelligent rugby af the kind that merits a top 3 place. Oz has it's ups and downs, against France it was a major down, but I don't expect a similar performance this weekend. Unless we totally dominate up front they are likely to have enough in the backs to score tries from reasonable ball. I don't have that confidence with our back line yet. If it takes us 15mins to get going this time we could be 14 down in short order. I would never underestimate the Aussies, they've pulled out some unexpected performances against the Blacks and England are a way behind them.

[Peter Seabiscuit Wheeler]

Was this the Oz game? In which case i'd be amazed if the stats read anything other than Carries: 12, Metres made: -20 metres. Tackles: 1...you get the idea. He looked terrible. That said, and in is defence, the whole team looked dreadful and it was his first game at that level I think.

I'm still confident that Crane is not international level.

I am indeed - they're not too hard to find... http://www.espnscrum.com/statsguru/rugby/match/98399.html

Okay, I'd forgotten Wilkinson on the tackle count. But from the pack no-one else had done more when Crane went off a little after 50 mins in.

You'll note that I didn't say he was great/internanational level - but given the absolute mare the entire rest of the team had that day I was very very surprised at the time that some singled him out for criticism. Very harsh given he was a) a 23 year old given his first start, b) had done more work than anyone else in the pack and c) we were actually winning while he was on the pitch!

The expectations on England were still very high at that point as well. Simply being "decent" was a shame on your nation, whereas now the likes of Hodgson, Dickson, Barrit and Farrell get lauded as the next big thing (till they get dropped a few weeks later ) by putting in workmanlike if limited performances.

Cranes big problem though must have been his injuries. hes missed a lot of rugby since then, and now often plays second fiddle to the fat kiwi at club level even when fit.
Im doubt we will see him in an England shirt again, but I agree the assesments on him were over harsh at the time. I thin the feeling was though that he was never going to be big enough for the modern international game.

[Alex_Germany]

Morgan and Waldron would have been fine in the England team of yesteryear. Then they brought in those skin tight shirts and suddenly everyone has to look like Haskell.

[AlastairW]

Morgan and Waldron would have been fine in the England team of yesteryear. Then they brought in those skin tight shirts and suddenly everyone has to look like Haskell.

Matt Stevens disagrees with you

[Big]

The expectations on England were still very high at that point as well. Simply being "decent" was a shame on your nation, whereas now the likes of Hodgson, Dickson, Barrit and Farrell get lauded as the next big thing (till they get dropped a few weeks later ) by putting in workmanlike if limited performances.

Cranes big problem though must have been his injuries. hes missed a lot of rugby since then, and now often plays second fiddle to the fat kiwi at club level even when fit.
Im doubt we will see him in an England shirt again, but I agree the assesments on him were over harsh at the time. I thin the feeling was though that he was never going to be big enough for the modern international game.

Agree on the injuries and also agree that he probably won't play again. It depends who steps up though. If Crane can get a couple of injury free seasons, and gets to the point that he is playing better than before then it can't be ruled out - particularly if others aren't playing well or have injury problems of their own. It feels like he's been around for ages, but he is still only 26 and injuries permitting probably has his best rugby to come over the next few seasons. And hey, if we get to the World Cup final and the scores are tied at the end of injury time... you know you'll want him in the squad!

[Effervescing Elephant]

David Pocock ruled out with a calf strain - Gavin Mairs on Twitter.

Thoughts?

[HERSH]

Oh dear.

[thebluesmancometh]

I personally think not winning this game comfortably will be a huge disapointment to England, after their progression to top of the NH tree they have to beat this Aus side surely?!

[mystiroakey]

Ermmm I take it thats abit tounge and cheek!!

Trying to pile the pressure on blues

[HERSH]

Maybe Blue is Mr Gatland?

[gregortree]

Blue Man,
No, not comfortably.
England are about to get dominated - according to the Aussie hooker:

Polota-Nau insists Australia are ready to deliver.
"We are confident we can dominate the English scrum. We have got it right in previous games, we just have to revisit where we were strong and concentrate on that,"

Aus did draw with ABs recently, so they cannot be all that bad ?

[HERSH]

Look what happened to Wales when they underestimated a tired beaten Argentinean team, I don't think us English fans would do that to Aus as deep down we respect them as a rugby team.

[Geordie]

I think we can win this game...but its not going to be a walk in the park that some seem to be thinking...

Some things worked well against Fjij...and some things didnt...so it was a useful game to blow the cobwebs out and the rustyness...but this will be a step up.

I suspect the team will be the same...though id like to see Launchbury start..i cant see it happening.

The back row...Waldrom is not my choice but will play...and once again the Jury gets to watch Tom Johnson.
I just cant make my mind up on him. He's like a livewire who was everywhere...hitting rucks, carrying etc....and yet i sometimes wonder just HOW effective he is doing that...is he abrasive enough when he hits the rucks etc...

Now Graham Rowntree obviously says a definate yes...and our breakdwon work etc has been a significant improvement...so i gues i shoudl give him the benefit of the doubt..but i will watch him again with great interest on Saturday...

[thebluesmancometh]

Hey that wasn't meant to be an insult, now the rusty firat game is out of the way this England team is on par easily with this Aus team, and with the rumours of the Aus camp the France game kinda highlighted their problems.

Now that Nau has come out with this blustering chest bashing trying to gear the Ozzies up it's confirmed to me how England are favourites.

For all HERSH garbage, I want the English team to win this one, and beleive they should, and well!!!

[No 7&1/2]

England really should be looking to beat Australia comfortably going by the long list of injuries they have (now Pocock as well) and the thumping France have just delivered. I agree with Lancaster that there will be some reaction by Aus but I think we will win this by 10+. The last time I felt confident going against a major nation Ireland handed us our ar**** on a plate though!

[thebluesmancometh]

I'd say 10 points isn't that unfair.

My money will be on England by 5-7 this weekend!

[mystiroakey]

Well blues I would say england edge them however its two good sides playing against each other- the best doesnt allways win- the home team doesnt allways win- the loser wont become rubbish and the winner wont become great!!

we cant underestimate a good team, we are not like the welsh fans

[HERSH]

We're playing those mind games together
Pushing the barriers planting seeds
Playing the mind guerrilla
Chanting the Mantra peace on earth
We all been playing those mind games forever
Some kinda druid dudes lifting the veil
Doing the mind guerrilla
Some call it magic the search for the grail

Love is the answer and you know that for sure
Love is a flower you got to let it grow

So keep on playing those mind games together
Faith in the future out of the now
You just can't beat on those mind guerrillas
Absolute elsewhere in the stones of your mind
Yeah we're playing those mind games together

His still at it!

[thebluesmancometh]

jeez

Maybe I'm overestimating English fans on here, if your all HERSH, Mystir types then maybe I'm better off attempting a wind up?

[gregortree]

BBC:
"Tens of thousands have gathered in northern Australia in the hope of glimpsing a rare total solar eclipse.
The eclipse is expected to plunge parts of Queensland into darkness for just over two minutes on Wednesday morning. "I guess it is time zones or something.
75,000+ already witnessed this is Paris at the weekend.

[mystiroakey]

why you getting so defensive, We arnt the type off fans to underestimate a good team- Is that clear enough- whatever you want to say about Aus- well its rubbish- they are still a very good team and need to be respected.

If you think we should underestimate them and expect a good victory- and you feel a better class of fan should- then jeas!! you got it back to front

[George Carlin]

Usual respectful article from the Aussie press about the England team:
http://www.smh.com.au/rugby-union/union-news/england-who-the-bloody-hell-are-they-20121113-29a1j.html

Monye cannot retain his place if Ashton is available and all out of dwarves.

Australia are in trouble in the forwards - Pocock out, Kane Douglas out, Higginbotham can't replace him because he's still suspended and Rob Simmons has been cited for dropping Nyanga on his heed.

England need to really turn the screw in the set piece and start kicking these penalties. No excuse for England to lose this one - I'll take them to win by 10 at least.

[thebluesmancometh]

Fair summation there Carlin

[englandglory4ever]

Obviously Aus are one of the big 3 and have been for years. No game against them can be taken lightly even by the NZers. It will be tough for England but that's what we want to see. How will they cope with the expectation when under pressure is the question? It is stupid to think this will be an easy win for us.

[HERSH]

[mystiroakey]

I am gonna back a 20pt win.. however I am not expecting anything-

Aus, SA, Ireland and england can all beat each other- no one team is that consitant yet..

I think England are the most out of the above- but we couldnt turn the screws enough v the better sides we have played recently. We still dont know where we are yet. The potential is there mind

[hugehandoff]

Eng should win and if they have pretensions of being a decent side then they must win. They are home and the Aussies are missing key players in Horwill, Genia, probably Pocock (and even if he does play he won't be fully fit), Cooper, O'Connor (and no doubt some others). I never underestimate the Aussies because they have that competitive streak and still some quality players, but if we cannot win this then heaven help us when we face the All Blacks.

[Peter Seabiscuit Wheeler]

Backing a 20 point win against any of the top 10 is pushing it, let alone a top 3 side.
The fact is though this is as good an opportunity as the one Scotland got recently to beat Aus as England will get. Aa near a full strength side as they ever have in the AIs at home in whats likely to be wet conditions against a dispirited injury riddled broken down Aus side that lost last time they came here heavily.
Aus in theory are the better side, that doenst mean England shouldnt be dissapointed if they dont win this and shouldnt go in as favourites. Nor does it mean that a 20 point win is likely or that Aus couldnt suddenly click again ( as hey are prone to doing time to time) and win.
But England should be confident they have a good chance.

[mystiroakey]

i have good odds- thats why i am going for it- its a bet and i think its good value. nothing to do with what i believe will happen though- but i think it has more chance than my odds!

[OzT]

Maybe a case of trying to bring Pocock back too early? Best we rest the bloke for rest of the tour and give him chance to fully recover.

[Peter Seabiscuit Wheeler]

i have good odds- thats why i am going for it- its a bet and i think its good value. nothing to do with what i believe will happen though- but i think it has more chance than my odds!

Sorry yeah thats sound logic. Given last time they met it was an open high scoring game, and that Aussies last game was lost by a big margin, and England look like they may have worked out an attacking plan suddenly ( ie not starting Farrell) ...if you can get decent odds there may be some value there.

[mystiroakey]

Tbh there is no value on an england win or even the standard handicaps 6, 11 or 12.5

There is also no value on an aus win. I think 5/1 is ok for a 20+ pt win

[HERSH]

Argentina were 9/2 against Wales

[Big]

Eng should win and if they have pretensions of being a decent side then they must win. They are home and the Aussies are missing key players in Horwill, Genia, probably Pocock (and even if he does play he won't be fully fit), Cooper, O'Connor (and no doubt some others). I never underestimate the Aussies because they have that competitive streak and still some quality players, but if we cannot win this then heaven help us when we face the All Blacks.

Spot on in my view. For this and the South Africa game. It's clear that New Zealand are a step ahead at the moment, but we should be aiming to beat everyone else at home.

[lostinwales]

Should be aiming to beat NZ too. Unlikely to happen but every few years we do manage it.

[mbernz]

Usual respectful article from the Aussie press about the England team:
http://www.smh.com.au/rugby-union/union-news/england-who-the-bloody-hell-are-they-20121113-29a1j.html

God, not another urine poor journalistic effort to add to ones our press are producing!

The lass who wrote this one doesn't seem to be too good with facts or maths:

"Waldrom, a Hurricane until signing with Leicester in 2010, qualifies on the RFU's three-year residency rule."

[mystiroakey]

i actually enjoyed the article but didnt england score 7 tries not 5

[Peter Seabiscuit Wheeler]

Usual respectful article from the Aussie press about the England team:
http://www.smh.com.au/rugby-union/union-news/england-who-the-bloody-hell-are-they-20121113-29a1j.html

God, not another urine poor journalistic effort to add to ones our press are producing!

The lass who wrote this one doesn't seem to be too good with facts or maths:

"Waldrom, a Hurricane until signing with Leicester in 2010, qualifies on the RFU's three-year residency rule."

To be fair though it is qualified by this statement :

That is not a record high number by Australian or New Zealand standards

So whilst it does misrepresent the facts in some cases and pander to some english bashing myths (RFU rule?) the article does make it clear England are hardly alone in having a few foriegns in their team

Indeed the tne of the article is no where near as insulting or shocking as the headline might suggest, its not unreasonable, given the aussies havent played lancasters nelgand before, to focus on the unheard of players. A large chunk of the team havent faced Aus before, and many fans wouldnt have a clue who they are.
That it ignores the new "proper" english lads ( Sharples, Goode etc) and instead focuses on the foriegns is a bit rum but not as bad as a Chris Rattue article on anything.

[LondonTiger]

This has to be pretty close to my favourite pre-match article of all time:

http://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/0/cricket/20315849


All I can say is if Ioane deems Sharples to be pretty, I would hate to meet the girls he dates (or boys).

[Duty281]

According to the BBC, Chris Ashton is in the 23 man squad but not Ugo Monye. Good call that by Lancaster to keep Sharples, I feared he may take the safe option.

[lostinwales]

No morgan tho - I would guess that Ashton is the only definite change.

The released players:
Anthony Allen (Leicester Tigers), Mouritz Botha (Saracens), Freddie Burns (Gloucester Rugby), Alex Corbisiero (London Irish), Lee Dickson (Northampton Saints), Phil Dowson (Northampton Saints), James Haskell (London Wasps), Jonathan Joseph (London Irish), Courtney Lawes (Northampton Saints), Ugo Monye (Harlequins), Ben Morgan (Gloucester Rugby), George Robson (Harlequins), Billy Twelvetrees (Gloucester Rugby)

[EnglishReign]

Well done Charlie and Stu. I really wanted Morgan back in, I don't really see what he's done wrong.

[yappysnap]

He plays for Gloucester?

Basically Lancaster realises he should be playing Easter but has trapped himself in a corner by running his mouth of about age and building etc so he'd now going to pick a player as similar to Easter as possible no matter what.

[majesticimperialman]

I am glad Sharples and Ashton are both in the squad.

Would like to have seen Frddie Burns get a run out instead of Owen Farrel. I guess there is the time though, if not now then maybe in the 6ns.

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