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England v Aus - KO 14:30 Sat 17th NOV at HQ - Match Thread/Build Up etc....

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Post by HERSH Sat 10 Nov 2012, 4:51 pm

First topic message reminder :

Feel free to discuss this game and any other aspect involving the England Rugby team good or bad as your opinions count and you won't be judged (by me) if you go against England, but do try to give a reason!

Please respect other posters opinions Hug

Game 1: Eng v Fiji
Game 2: Eng v Aus
Game 3: Eng v SA
Game 4: Eng v NZ

England team to face Australia:

Alex Goode
Chris Ashton
Manusamoa Tuilagi
Brad Barritt
Charlie Sharples
Toby Flood
Danny Care
Joe Marler
Tom Youngs,
Dan Cole
Tom Palmer
Geoff Parling
Tom Johnson,
Chris Robshaw
Thomas Waldrom
Replacements: David Paice
David Wilson
Mako Vunipola
Joe Launchbury
Tom Wood
Ben Youngs
Owen Farrell
Mike Brown


Last edited by HERSH on Thu 15 Nov 2012, 10:55 am; edited 1 time in total
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Post by LondonTiger Tue 13 Nov 2012, 8:05 pm

yappysnap wrote:He plays for Gloucester?

Basically Lancaster realises he should be playing Easter but has trapped himself in a corner by running his mouth of about age and building etc so he'd now going to pick a player as similar to Easter as possible no matter what.

Actually I take it more as Waldrom won the shirt by outperforming Morgan on the SA tour and is being retained as the man in possession (though two starts is hardly man in possession Smile ) who has done little wrong so far. Personally I think Lancaster is wrong - but he knows the players better than I do.

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Post by yappysnap Tue 13 Nov 2012, 8:05 pm

Need a big game from Ashton after walking straight back into the squad after his ban. He needs to be on good behaviour, sharp in defence and clinical in attack if he's given any chances.

Thankfully I think he'll come out with a point to prove and be exactly that.

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Post by yappysnap Tue 13 Nov 2012, 8:09 pm

LondonTiger wrote:
yappysnap wrote:He plays for Gloucester?

Basically Lancaster realises he should be playing Easter but has trapped himself in a corner by running his mouth of about age and building etc so he'd now going to pick a player as similar to Easter as possible no matter what.

Actually I take it more as Waldrom won the shirt by outperforming Morgan on the SA tour and is being retained as the man in possession (though two starts is hardly man in possession Smile ) who has done little wrong so far. Personally I think Lancaster is wrong - but he knows the players better than I do.

The problem with this whole "winning the shirt" idea is that it only applies to some players. Goode didn't "win" it but has now jumped the que and has the full back shirt, by the same token Monye had a wingers shirt but has been dropped, Johnson has the 6 shirt but you can sense that he's going to be pushed out by Woods wether he plays well or not and then Launchberry played very well but Palmer will still retain that 5 shirt.

To be honest I do think that on form Waldrom can be just as affective as Morgan, both are pretty iffy at times too I was just really surprised by the very basic mistakes that he was making on the weekend.

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Post by mckay1402 Tue 13 Nov 2012, 8:16 pm

I think unless Australia improve dramatically they are going to get smashed by England.
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Post by yappysnap Tue 13 Nov 2012, 8:17 pm

26-10 to Tigers, 10 mins to half time I think

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Post by yappysnap Tue 13 Nov 2012, 8:18 pm

Completely wrong thread...

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Post by LondonTiger Tue 13 Nov 2012, 8:31 pm

yappysnap wrote:Goode didn't "win" it but has now jumped the que and has the full back shirt, by the same token Monye had a wingers shirt but has been dropped,
Ture about Goode - but that looked like a tactical decision as Brown and Goode are very different in style. Monye was only ever a temporary stand in.

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Post by yappysnap Tue 13 Nov 2012, 8:37 pm

I just hope that Ashton comes back playing well like we know that he can, Sharples was a breath of fresh air on Sat, when was the last time Eng had a winger throwing those kind of outragous steps out wide?

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Post by ChequeredJersey Tue 13 Nov 2012, 8:42 pm

Poor Brown. Oh well, some players get this happening to them and we can't say Goode hasn't done well when he got the shirt, so I'd say he won it through virtue of Brown's injury but now is seen as a better fit for our gameplan altogether. Apparently Lancaster even thought of Brown at 14 alla Foden. All he can do now is continue to be the best FB in the AP and make himself available if things change
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Post by yappysnap Tue 13 Nov 2012, 8:45 pm

+1

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Post by ChequeredJersey Tue 13 Nov 2012, 8:47 pm

I imagine this is what it is like to be a Gloucester fan
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Post by yappysnap Tue 13 Nov 2012, 8:50 pm

Similar but at least we can be impressed with the player that's pushed our guy out. Wink

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Post by ChequeredJersey Wed 14 Nov 2012, 2:09 am

http://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/0/rugby-union/20314120

Guscott's column and it actually reads pretty well and is reasonably informative for a change
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Post by gregortree Wed 14 Nov 2012, 9:48 am

yappysnap wrote:I just hope that Ashton comes back playing well like we know that he can, Sharples was a breath of fresh air on Sat, when was the last time Eng had a winger throwing those kind of outragous steps out wide?

The last time England selected a Gloucester winger - Sinbad.
Maybe try this more often.

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Post by gregortree Wed 14 Nov 2012, 9:51 am

Gloucester wingers have more steps than Strictly Head Judge Len.

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Post by EnglishReign Wed 14 Nov 2012, 9:57 am

And the scary thing is, I'd be tempted to put Charlie behind May and Sinbad.

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Post by EnglishReign Wed 14 Nov 2012, 9:58 am

gregortree wrote:
yappysnap wrote:I just hope that Ashton comes back playing well like we know that he can, Sharples was a breath of fresh air on Sat, when was the last time Eng had a winger throwing those kind of outragous steps out wide?

The last time England selected a Gloucester winger - Sinbad.
Maybe try this more often.

I rewatched the Eng v Aus game from 2002, on youtube. Sinbad was electric, some beautiful passing, offloads and running. Set up both Cohen tries.

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Post by beshocked Wed 14 Nov 2012, 10:00 am

yappysnap wrote:
LondonTiger wrote:
yappysnap wrote:He plays for Gloucester?

Basically Lancaster realises he should be playing Easter but has trapped himself in a corner by running his mouth of about age and building etc so he'd now going to pick a player as similar to Easter as possible no matter what.

Actually I take it more as Waldrom won the shirt by outperforming Morgan on the SA tour and is being retained as the man in possession (though two starts is hardly man in possession Smile ) who has done little wrong so far. Personally I think Lancaster is wrong - but he knows the players better than I do.

The problem with this whole "winning the shirt" idea is that it only applies to some players. Goode didn't "win" it but has now jumped the que and has the full back shirt, by the same token Monye had a wingers shirt but has been dropped, Johnson has the 6 shirt but you can sense that he's going to be pushed out by Woods wether he plays well or not and then Launchberry played very well but Palmer will still retain that 5 shirt.

To be honest I do think that on form Waldrom can be just as affective as Morgan, both are pretty iffy at times too I was just really surprised by the very basic mistakes that he was making on the weekend.

You are right, Goode didn't win the shirt because the FB shirt has been his since the 3rd test in SA. Goode has done little wrong. Strong performance in SA. You can't drop the man of the match vs Fiji. If Goode had been lacklustre or put in a mediocre performance there would be grounds for dropping him. Just like Monye.

Lancaster has seen no need to drop Goode and why should he? Brown might be hailed as a deity at Quins, he's a very good player but he's unproven at international level. He had an opportunity to take the FB shirt in SA but injury saw him fall behind Goode. A place he has been ever since.

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Post by gregortree Wed 14 Nov 2012, 10:01 am

ER, oh yes, they were the days.... rose

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Post by Jimpy Wed 14 Nov 2012, 10:10 am

I don't think Goode has done much wrong so far, he's been solid enough. He doesn't posess Foden's skillset, but is a more than able stand-in - however, I don't think he's done enough to keep Foden from being 1st choice at 15.

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Post by Geordie Wed 14 Nov 2012, 10:28 am

I think Goode has better actual creativity with his passing etc...whereas Foden offers more threat with his actual running...think they both have their strengths...as does Brown...we are fortunate to have all three...though sadly it means 1 will miss out....and it looks like SL has decided it going to be Brown.


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Post by HERSH Wed 14 Nov 2012, 10:33 am

"Brown might be hailed as a deity at Quins, he's a very good player but he's unproven at international level."

Why do people forget Brown was tried and tested before and he wasn't International class then nor is he now, he was rubbish.
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Post by LondonTiger Wed 14 Nov 2012, 10:40 am

HERSH wrote:"Brown might be hailed as a deity at Quins, he's a very good player but he's unproven at international level."

Why do people forget Brown was tried and tested before and he wasn't International class then nor is he now, he was rubbish.

picard

Brown has improved out of sight since the tour to NZ 4 years ago. He accepted his speed needed to improve - so out of his own pocket he followed the trend started by Kenny Logan to hire Margot Wells. He looked good in the summer against SA and only injury gave Goode a chance. Brown would probably have got the shirt back if we had started against SA - but the tactical options offered by a FB who has also played at 10 meant Goode continued in the team. He did very well.

We are fortunate to have a number of players who do not look out of place as an international Full Back.

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Post by Morgannwg Wed 14 Nov 2012, 10:56 am

Goode might be what you need against the Aussies, I don't think he is as good as Saracens fans believe but he does posess a similar skill set to the Wallaby backs. Can't see past an England win here, especially as Aus are without Pocock.
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Post by beshocked Wed 14 Nov 2012, 10:59 am

Morgannwg Wales aren't as good as Welsh fans think. What's your point?

Goode is a very good player who keeps on proving it.

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Post by Geordie Wed 14 Nov 2012, 11:01 am

Whats every ones impression of Englands back row...

Would
6 Johnson
7 Robshaw
8 Waldrom

be your choice.
What does each player ACTUALLY bring to the table....

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Post by LondonTiger Wed 14 Nov 2012, 11:06 am

GeordieFalcon wrote:Whats every ones impression of Englands back row...

Would
6 Johnson
7 Robshaw
8 Waldrom

be your choice.
What does each player ACTUALLY bring to the table....

That would not be my preferred choice - but of the players in the 23 man squad, that is how I would line them up.

Johnson - Quick, good lineout option, gets stuck in at rucks and mauls.
Robshaw - Tackle machine, turnover expert, good hands, great engine. Decent lineout.
Waldrom - Good rugby brain, gets himself in the right positions for fielding kicks, more pace than you expect and good broken field carrier. (Iffy in the tight)

Wood - Quickish, good lineout bit flimsy when compared to Johnson and Robshaw.



when all fit my preferred option would be:

6 Croft
7 Robshaw
8 Morgan

20 Haskell

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Post by EnglishReign Wed 14 Nov 2012, 11:10 am

A back 3 of sharples, Ashton and Goode could be pretty devastating.

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Post by Morgannwg Wed 14 Nov 2012, 11:11 am

beshocked wrote:Morgannwg Wales aren't as good as Welsh fans think. What's your point?

Goode is a very good player who keeps on proving it.

picard
Well done for making yourself look like a muppet Beshocked, didn't even require input from elsewhere on this occassion. I'm saying Goode should start, however he isn't that 'good' a player yet. Not sure what Wales has to do with any of it.
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Post by Peter Seabiscuit Wheeler Wed 14 Nov 2012, 11:11 am

The point with Goode is that he enables England top play completley differently. Brown has his strengths, but acting as a part time 12? Dont see it. Foden conversly could displace him and still enable to persist with bringing the 15 into the midfield in attack as a second playmaker. Sometimes a player misses out because the side has found a system that works for them that suits another player better.

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Post by beshocked Wed 14 Nov 2012, 11:16 am

Morgannwg

you are entitled to your opinion as I am to mine. I think Goode is good enough.

Englishreign I agree.

I would go with a backrow of Johnson,Robshaw,Morgan.

Personally I believe Johnson gets too much criticism.

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Post by Morgannwg Wed 14 Nov 2012, 11:20 am

So why bring Wales into this? Unless your intent on turning this into a England v Wales bickering thread, don't think everyone else would appreciate that!

I singled out Sarries fans because they sing Goode's praises a lot and I've even seen some state he's a candidate for the Lions. I think he's far from that. Whenever I've seen Alex Goode play he does a lot of things well but his play can also be erratic. Although it's mostly just good play so far this season. I'll be paying some attention to him on saturday.
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Post by HERSH Wed 14 Nov 2012, 11:50 am

Guys stay on topic, otherwise push off.

There is a dedicated thread for the Wales v England bickering.

This thread is about Eng v Aus on Saturday, I'm sure there is a Pokemon thread somewhere too. thumbsup
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Post by Effervescing Elephant Wed 14 Nov 2012, 11:58 am

The voice of reason as always there Hershypops!
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Post by thomh Wed 14 Nov 2012, 12:07 pm

beshocked wrote:

You are right, Goode didn't win the shirt because the FB shirt has been his since the 3rd test in SA. Goode has done little wrong. Strong performance in SA. You can't drop the man of the match vs Fiji. If Goode had been lacklustre or put in a mediocre performance there would be grounds for dropping him. Just like Monye.

Lancaster has seen no need to drop Goode and why should he? Brown might be hailed as a deity at Quins, he's a very good player but he's unproven at international level. He had an opportunity to take the FB shirt in SA but injury saw him fall behind Goode. A place he has been ever since.

Ever since? There's only been one England game since then. I'm a Quins fan who actually agrees with Goode's selection, but you seem to be implying that Goode made the shirt his own during Brown's injury, which isn't really true. There was pretty much nothing to choose between our three full backs on that tour.

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Post by ChequeredJersey Wed 14 Nov 2012, 12:28 pm

HERSH wrote:"Brown might be hailed as a deity at Quins, he's a very good player but he's unproven at international level."

Why do people forget Brown was tried and tested before and he wasn't International class then nor is he now, he was rubbish.

Because it is a generally known fact that he was suffering from food poisoning on that SA tour (in the one test that you are judging him on). If that excuse flies for the ABs why doesn't it for Brown?
Have you actually watched Brown play in the past 2 seasons? Your comments imply you haven't as I've seen NO lack of pace at all
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Post by ChequeredJersey Wed 14 Nov 2012, 12:30 pm

thomh wrote:
beshocked wrote:

You are right, Goode didn't win the shirt because the FB shirt has been his since the 3rd test in SA. Goode has done little wrong. Strong performance in SA. You can't drop the man of the match vs Fiji. If Goode had been lacklustre or put in a mediocre performance there would be grounds for dropping him. Just like Monye.

Lancaster has seen no need to drop Goode and why should he? Brown might be hailed as a deity at Quins, he's a very good player but he's unproven at international level. He had an opportunity to take the FB shirt in SA but injury saw him fall behind Goode. A place he has been ever since.

Ever since? There's only been one England game since then. I'm a Quins fan who actually agrees with Goode's selection, but you seem to be implying that Goode made the shirt his own during Brown's injury, which isn't really true. There was pretty much nothing to choose between our three full backs on that tour.

+1, especially as they all had similar quality matches, one each. Goode was fortunate enough that the forwards manned up enough to get a flattering draw in his match which was in far easier circumstances to either of the other two. Against Fiji, however, he was class
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Post by thomh Wed 14 Nov 2012, 12:44 pm

Yes, he was excellent and it will be interesting to see if the two fly halves tactic works as well against stronger opposition. If anything what I'm saying is a compliment to Goode- I don't think his selection has anything to do with him happening to have played the last test rather than the first. They just weighed up the two options and decided Goode is the better bet right now.

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Post by LondonTiger Wed 14 Nov 2012, 12:48 pm

Agreed thomh.

On a horses for courses selection we may then see different options against SA.

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Post by Jimpy Wed 14 Nov 2012, 1:20 pm

Morgannwg wrote:
beshocked wrote:Morgannwg Wales aren't as good as Welsh fans think. What's your point?

Goode is a very good player who keeps on proving it.

picard
Well done for making yourself look like a muppet Beshocked, didn't even require input from elsewhere on this occassion. I'm saying Goode should start, however he isn't that 'good' a player yet. Not sure what Wales has to do with any of it.

I know, I know. You caught me napping there.

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Post by yappysnap Wed 14 Nov 2012, 8:48 pm

beshocked wrote:
yappysnap wrote:
LondonTiger wrote:
yappysnap wrote:He plays for Gloucester?

Basically Lancaster realises he should be playing Easter but has trapped himself in a corner by running his mouth of about age and building etc so he'd now going to pick a player as similar to Easter as possible no matter what.

Actually I take it more as Waldrom won the shirt by outperforming Morgan on the SA tour and is being retained as the man in possession (though two starts is hardly man in possession Smile ) who has done little wrong so far. Personally I think Lancaster is wrong - but he knows the players better than I do.

The problem with this whole "winning the shirt" idea is that it only applies to some players. Goode didn't "win" it but has now jumped the que and has the full back shirt, by the same token Monye had a wingers shirt but has been dropped, Johnson has the 6 shirt but you can sense that he's going to be pushed out by Woods wether he plays well or not and then Launchberry played very well but Palmer will still retain that 5 shirt.

To be honest I do think that on form Waldrom can be just as affective as Morgan, both are pretty iffy at times too I was just really surprised by the very basic mistakes that he was making on the weekend.

You are right, Goode didn't win the shirt because the FB shirt has been his since the 3rd test in SA. Goode has done little wrong. Strong performance in SA. You can't drop the man of the match vs Fiji. If Goode had been lacklustre or put in a mediocre performance there would be grounds for dropping him. Just like Monye.

Lancaster has seen no need to drop Goode and why should he? Brown might be hailed as a deity at Quins, he's a very good player but he's unproven at international level. He had an opportunity to take the FB shirt in SA but injury saw him fall behind Goode. A place he has been ever since.

Really I write all of that and that's all you pick up on?

Goode now has the shirt but got lucky on Browns injury to get a chance, what's brilliant for us is that against Fiji he stepped up to the plate and showed his class. He was by far our best back in that game and if he can put in those kinds of performances against the top three in the coming weeks then he'll def be first choice.

To my mind though there is a place for all three fb's depending upon the make up of the backline and the opposition. Foden is almost like having a third wing with his pace and talent for burning the man on the outside, Brown is an old school 15 who has the best all round skillset and Goode is the 10 at fullback style player.

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Post by Guest Wed 14 Nov 2012, 9:06 pm

England should put 40 points on this Australia side, they have more depth ,resources and money than the French.
If England don't crack the top three by the end of the autumn they should be ashamed,
the worlds richest Union should be showing the AllBlacks how it's done.

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Post by nathan Wed 14 Nov 2012, 10:05 pm

viewtothegym wrote:England should put 40 points on this Australia side, they have more depth ,resources and money than the French.
If England don't crack the top three by the end of the autumn they should be ashamed,
the worlds richest Union should be showing the AllBlacks how it's done.

Bugger off you donut!

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Post by yappysnap Wed 14 Nov 2012, 10:07 pm

nathan wrote:
viewtothegym wrote:England should put 40 points on this Australia side, they have more depth ,resources and money than the French.
If England don't crack the top three by the end of the autumn they should be ashamed,
the worlds richest Union should be showing the AllBlacks how it's done.

Bugger off you donut!

+10000000

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Post by gregortree Thu 15 Nov 2012, 8:59 am

View, yawn, Laugh
and the England 'resources' theme has been aired on these boards 40 times too. Anything new you have to add to the theme ?

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Post by Biltong Thu 15 Nov 2012, 9:01 am

I have been thinking about this match, I am thinking England will win ths, but it won't be easy, Australia will be hurting after the loss last weekend, but the question is how are their motivation and team spirit, for that reason, I think england will take this by the narrowest of margins.
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Post by Effervescing Elephant Thu 15 Nov 2012, 9:03 am

I think this one is too close to call. I'm fence sitting big style on this one!
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Post by Peter Seabiscuit Wheeler Thu 15 Nov 2012, 9:05 am

If Scotland votes to split off and we lose north sea oil can we use our lack of natural resources as an excuse for losing games?


As for worlds richest Union...they lost over 6 million last year (thanks to the world cup) and expect to lose far more by hosting ...the world cup. Unfortunatly because the RFU makes welfare payments to the rest of the rugby world they dont really see the best of the revenues they generate, aside form those on the RFU council.

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Post by HERSH Thu 15 Nov 2012, 9:08 am

viewtothegym wrote:England should put 40 points on this Australia side, they have more depth ,resources and money than the French.
If England don't crack the top three by the end of the autumn they should be ashamed,
the worlds richest Union should be showing the AllBlacks how it's done.

Viewtothemaleshowers you've come to the wrong place Son, we (England fans) always respect the opposition unlike some other Nation that still won't except that they lost to the better team last Saturday, but keep telling yourself that your the 2nd best team in the world and maybe one day you might beat the worlds No1, you never know it might even be in your lifetime. Laugh
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