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Ireland vs England

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Ireland vs England  Empty Ireland vs England

Post by No 7&1/2 Tue 16 Mar 2021, 7:12 am

Thought I'd set up a neutral venue.

Some team news is that Ryan and Ringrose have been ruled out for the home team.

No sign as yet of Underhill so Wilson on for another start unless Jones gets brave and picks Martin from the off. May actually be tempted as POM is back available.


Last edited by No 7&1/2 on Tue 16 Mar 2021, 9:00 am; edited 1 time in total (Reason for editing : rubbish spelling)

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Post by Gooseberry Tue 16 Mar 2021, 8:05 am

No 7&1/2 wrote:Thought I'd set up a neutral venue.

Some team news is that Ryan and Ringrose have been ruled out for the home team.

No sign as yet of Underhill so Wilson on for another start unless Jones gets brave and picks Martin from the off. May actually be temped as POM is back available.

For a second I read that as May for Wilson Whistle

Big game for both sides pride if nothing else and a tough one to call. Both look to be improving a bit.

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Post by Soul Requiem Tue 16 Mar 2021, 8:13 am

This is the game where Underhill will be missed. The last few games have been decided by England consistently dominating the gain line, hitting Ireland back phase after phase. I'd be tempted like you to start Martin or maybe even Earl.

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Post by mountain man Tue 16 Mar 2021, 8:22 am

I reckon no changes, why would Jones change a winning team and in fairness one that played really well from 1-15 plus subs.
As for Underhill, well he's obviously fit and playing well for Bath so maybe he'd be back(?). Wilson was fine but not outstanding and Underhill definitely more dynamic.
I've said this on other thread that only possible other change could be in backs subs, however Robson has to be there as 9, Daly will be so only other one is Lawrence. I'd try Odogwu maybe but then very harsh to drop Lawrence again.

Who knows, Eddie confounds all with his selections usually!

One thing with Ryan out which is a shame for him and Ireland but good news I'd say for England. The line out will be interesting, Ireland stole so much Scottish ball, was it woeful Scotland or just excellent by Ireland. England line out usually very good so that will be a key point in game I reckon. Scrums should also be well matched.

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Post by Oakdene Tue 16 Mar 2021, 8:34 am

Got to fancy the English wingers to do some damage if England can get the ball wide enough to them. Lowe's defence has been questionable at best.

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Post by mountain man Tue 16 Mar 2021, 8:44 am

Oakdene wrote:Got to fancy the English wingers to do some damage if England can get the ball wide enough to them. Lowe's defence has been questionable at best.

Yep, he's good in attack but defence not so sharp. Earls though played well on Sunday, he's deceptively strong. If Bundee Aki comes in for Ringrose then that's very strong centre partnership of Henshaw and Aki for Farrell and Slade to deal with. I think that will be area Ireland will target.


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Post by MichaelT Tue 16 Mar 2021, 9:04 am

Ireland had Farrell and Aki as their centres last November and there was a lot made of how Englands (Slade/ Lawrence) wouldn't cope. Coped pretty well then if you ask me. Henshaw on the other hand is in great form. Moved himself up to Lions probable.

I don't think Underhill can be called up with the current agreement unless theres an injury? Curry had the game of his life v France though so if he keeps that up, and the Vunipolas always go well against Irish teams, Underhill might not be missed. He wasn't playing last time in Dublin when England won.

If England get the amount of ball and attack like they did again on Saturday Ireland will struggle. Ireland dont have the pace to move it like France themselves and their wide defence is poor. Hopefully Lowe starts as he will not deal with Watson or May running round him.

However, all the Irish pre-tournament reports in the papers were about this match (several pundits saying it would be a grand slam decider), so think Ireland will be targeting it. Wont be surprised with either result.

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Post by GeordieFalcon Tue 16 Mar 2021, 9:37 am

i cant see Jones making any changes, bar those for injuries.

Id like to see Lawrence get a bit longer than 9 mins though.

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Post by Pete330v2 Tue 16 Mar 2021, 9:40 am

I just don't think Ireland have the raw power to take on the English pack. Ryan's absence will be a miss and that means that Beirne will likely be moved to lock. Personally I'd throw Ryan Baird in there and leave Beirne in the back row where I reckon he does more damage. I'd love to have had Gavin Coombes in the mix, he's a beast and a perfect counter for Billy Vunipola but he's not deemed to be ready, I think he is but that's life. The selection will be as predictable as ever with O'Mahoney being brought straight back into the 6 shirt which I completely disagree with but once again, that's life.

England by 15 but I hope my gut's very, very wrong.

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Post by The Oracle Tue 16 Mar 2021, 10:32 am

Just seen that CJ Stander has announced his international retirement!  Bit out of the blue!

Edit: Sorry, retiring from ALL forms of rugby. Didn't see that coming.
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Post by mountain man Tue 16 Mar 2021, 10:35 am

At end of season though so he'll be there against England Saturday. Odd decision really as he's been so good.
He's going back to South Africa so must be a family thing or something.

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Post by king_carlos Tue 16 Mar 2021, 1:11 pm

Such a shame that Ryan has been ruled out. He was magnificent against Scotland up until getting injured. Back to his very best. It would have been great to see the match-up between Ryan and Itoje. It also would have been a good gauge of how the Proudfoot lineout is developing especially with Kruis and Lawes unavailable.

I expect the lineout to be a huge battle with Bierne still there though. Do Ireland fans reckon Bierne will move to lock with POM at blindside or will Farrell Snr trust Ryan Baird with a starting shirt?

From an England perspective I'd hope for an unchanged side unless Underhill comes back into camp.

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Post by No 7&1/2 Tue 16 Mar 2021, 1:41 pm

Slade is a doubt with a leg injury.

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Post by TightHEAD Tue 16 Mar 2021, 1:42 pm

When is it?

What time?

etc... Basics missed.
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Post by GeordieFalcon Tue 16 Mar 2021, 1:43 pm

No 7&1/2 wrote:Slade is a doubt with a leg injury.

That could open the door for Ollie Lawrence.

Would be a shame as Slade had a great game on Saturday.

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Post by No 7&1/2 Tue 16 Mar 2021, 1:46 pm

TightHEAD wrote:When is it?

What time?

etc... Basics missed.

Sunday 3pm. Don't miss it.

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Post by TightHEAD Tue 16 Mar 2021, 1:46 pm

Stander is only 31, 3/4 years left surely. Bloody mercenaries.  Leprechaun Springbok
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Post by No 7&1/2 Tue 16 Mar 2021, 1:47 pm

GeordieFalcon wrote:
No 7&1/2 wrote:Slade is a doubt with a leg injury.

That could open the door for Ollie Lawrence.

Would be a shame as Slade had a great game on Saturday.

I'd like to see Lawrence in there so I'm not too disheartened by the news. Perhaps gives Odogwu the opening as well.

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Post by mountain man Tue 16 Mar 2021, 1:49 pm

GeordieFalcon wrote:
No 7&1/2 wrote:Slade is a doubt with a leg injury.

That could open the door for Ollie Lawrence.

Would be a shame as Slade had a great game on Saturday.

Yep Slades best game for a while. Still as you say Lawrence maybe a starter. Marchant been called to squad as cover but be good to see Lawrence start and Odogwu on bench.

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Post by mountain man Tue 16 Mar 2021, 1:53 pm

No 7&1/2 wrote:
TightHEAD wrote:When is it?

What time?

etc... Basics missed.

Sunday 3pm. Don't miss it.

No it's 16:45 on Saturday 20th. Or were you on the wind-up? Very Happy

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Post by No 7&1/2 Tue 16 Mar 2021, 1:59 pm

Never.

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Post by Pete330v2 Tue 16 Mar 2021, 2:42 pm

king_carlos wrote:Such a shame that Ryan has been ruled out. He was magnificent against Scotland up until getting injured. Back to his very best. It would have been great to see the match-up between Ryan and Itoje. It also would have been a good gauge of how the Proudfoot lineout is developing especially with Kruis and Lawes unavailable.

I expect the lineout to be a huge battle with Bierne still there though. Do Ireland fans reckon Bierne will move to lock with POM at blindside or will Farrell Snr trust Ryan Baird with a starting shirt?

From an England perspective I'd hope for an unchanged side unless Underhill comes back into camp.

I predict the predictable with POM returning to the 6 shirt unfortunately. I am a fan of POM but think we need some extra bulk in the pack, POM ultimately lacks the mass but makes up for it with manic, berserker like aggression. This is a time for solid bulk and control IMO, Farrell will undoubtedly remain conservative with his selection.

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Post by GeordieFalcon Tue 16 Mar 2021, 3:12 pm

I think i'd be looking to swap Mark Wilson and Ben Earl...

6 Earl
7 Curry
8 Billy V

Put George Martin on the bench.

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Post by king_carlos Tue 16 Mar 2021, 3:30 pm

Interesting that Marchant has been called up from the shadow squad instead of Joseph.

JJ would be the most like for like cover for Slade in terms of running the defence from 13.

I like that there are now 3 very talented and young outside centres in the squad though.

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Post by Poorfour Tue 16 Mar 2021, 3:46 pm

king_carlos wrote:Interesting that Marchant has been called up from the shadow squad instead of Joseph.

JJ would be the most like for like cover for Slade in terms of running the defence from 13.

I like that there are now 3 very talented and young outside centres in the squad though.

Marchant's a good defender though and can cover wing and centre, so he's useful to have around the squad. He's also got more top level experience than Lawrence and Odogwu and is coming into some form. It's unlikely he'd jump straight into the matchday squad, but not outside the bounds of possibility, especially if there's a 5-3 split instead of 6-2
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Post by doctor_grey Tue 16 Mar 2021, 4:33 pm

Odogwu hasn’t played any Rugby since the start of the tournament?  For him, being in the England squad must be like receiving a promotion in the Russian army: the good news is now you are an officer. The bad news is you’re being sent to Siberia in winter and no one will see or hear from you for eight weeks or so.

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Post by theslosty Tue 16 Mar 2021, 4:43 pm

England are a bad match up for Ireland at the moment. Against the likes of Scotland and Wales our phase play is strong enough to overwhelm them but England have more than enough physicality to counter it and we don't really have a Plan B.

Ringrose didn't have his best game vs Scotland but is a big loss in my mind. Our attack hasn't been great at the best of times but with Ringrose absent it tends to be even more blunt than usual.

It's hard to be optimistic especially when we usually rely on the emotion of this occasion to fire ourselves up and for obvious reasons that won't be available this weekend. The only thing I'll say is that the 18-7 loss in the Autumn could have been a lot closer had our lineout been functioning, and on the evidence so far in this 6N POC has completely transformed that area. The loss of Ryan could be compensated by bringing POM back in who is up there with the very best defensive lineout jumpers in Europe - I kinda hope Farrell does start him purely for the social media fume it will cause Very Happy
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Post by doctor_grey Tue 16 Mar 2021, 4:59 pm

theslosty wrote:England are a bad match up for Ireland at the moment. Against the likes of Scotland and Wales our phase play is strong enough to overwhelm them but England have more than enough physicality to counter it and we don't really have a Plan B.

Ringrose didn't have his best game vs Scotland but is a big loss in my mind. Our attack hasn't been great at the best of times but with Ringrose absent it tends to be even more blunt than usual.

It's hard to be optimistic especially when we usually rely on the emotion of this occasion to fire ourselves up and for obvious reasons that won't be available this weekend. The only thing I'll say is that the 18-7 loss in the Autumn could have been a lot closer had our lineout been functioning, and on the evidence so far in this 6N POC has completely transformed that area. The loss of Ryan could be compensated by bringing POM back in who is up there with the very best defensive lineout jumpers in Europe - I kinda hope Farrell does start him purely for the social media fume it will cause Very Happy
I like your reason for bringing POM back, just for the ruckus! Works for me.

I don’t think England is ever (well, hardly ever) a bad matchup for Ireland. In every match including that boring ANC match, Ireland has always brought the goods regardless of how well or not both teams played. And every game is tough as nails.

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Post by theslosty Tue 16 Mar 2021, 5:16 pm

If POM is named the amount of Irish 'das' particularly from Leinster and Ulster foaming at the mouth would be a sight to see Very Happy

I think it's a bad match up for our current style of play in that England find it quite easy to counter Ireland's strengths. To me it seems like Ireland will beat Scotland and Wales* most of the time but Scotland and Wales are more capable of beating England than we are. Particularly in Scotland's case they don't have to go head to head with England's power because they have the speed and skill out wide to beat them in that area. We don't really have players like Russell or Hogg right now (or we aren't picking them) so that option isn't available to us. I will say however the individuals in Ireland's backline are better than what they are producing at the moment and that's where Mike Catt has to take responsibility.

I agree with the poster above however that Underhill is a miss for England as his tackling is kryptonite to our possession game.

*but for POM's moment of madness I think we would have won in Cardiff
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Post by Gooseberry Tue 16 Mar 2021, 6:32 pm

Ireland have been very good at getting and keeping the ball over the recent tests. England have been pretty good at giving it away. If they cant sort out the penalties and dont get their usual easy ride at the lineout then England are going to have a big problem.

The autumn game looked a comfortable win for England but it took a bit of individual magic from May vs some absolutely toothless Ireland plays. May hasnt been producing those moments this winter, and Ireland are starting to look a bit more capable of turning possession into tries than they did. Underhill was a big part of England shutting down Ireland in the autumn too.


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Post by lostinwales Tue 16 Mar 2021, 10:29 pm

Gooseberry wrote:Ireland have been very good at getting and keeping the ball over the recent tests. England have been pretty good at giving it away. If they cant sort out the penalties and dont get their usual easy ride at the lineout then England are going to have a big problem.

The autumn game looked a comfortable win for England but it took a bit of individual magic from May vs some absolutely toothless Ireland plays. May hasnt been producing those moments this winter, and Ireland are starting to look a bit more capable of turning possession into tries than they did. Underhill was a big part of England shutting down Ireland in the autumn too.


It is a funny one. Ireland were truly our bogey team for a few years then we worked out how to beat them.

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Post by TightHEAD Tue 16 Mar 2021, 11:48 pm

Ireland 19 England 43
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Post by mountain man Wed 17 Mar 2021, 8:03 am

TightHEAD wrote:Ireland 19 England 43

I'd take that. And party!

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Post by No 7&1/2 Wed 17 Mar 2021, 2:06 pm

Some quotes via the BBC from Jonny May: 'We needed that win, it was an important win for England rugby, not just for the people in this environment, but the people watching at home as well," he admitted.
"We have been under pressure from ourselves firstly, no-one can put ourselves under more pressure than what we do.
"But we felt it externally as well. You can't help but feel it. We care a lot about what we do and there is a bit of a regret that there is a lot of people at home watching us at the moment and you want to give them something to smile about. "Up until Saturday we hadn't done that yet."

England won nine straight matches in 2020, adding the Autumn Nations Cup to the Six Nations title, but May admits results papered over the cracks in terms of performance, with an inspired Scotland exposing those fault-lines last month.

"I'm not sure if I am speaking on behalf of everybody, but my line in the sand [after Scotland] was that our attack isn't good enough - nowhere near where it needs to be," May explained. "Our set-piece and our defence [in 2020] was brilliant, we won games, but our attack wasn't quite right. That got swept under the rug because we were winning games. "And then Scotland on a day where the set-piece and defence wasn't quite where it needs to be, which will happen sometimes, it really shone a light on the fact our attack wasn't there to win us the game when it should have been.
"So that hit home, and we got hold of it as players, and we've been taking step forward after step forward ever since then."

However, May says the victory over France last time out will be worthless if England are unable to back it up against Ireland in Dublin this coming Saturday.

"It's funny really because I'm nervous now, because what does that mean if we don't back it up?" he asked.
"We need to be on it this week, and we are. It is going to be a huge game and I bet Ireland are feeling exactly the same.
"They've had a similar campaign to us and they will be desperate to win this last game."'


Not too sure why it hadn't hit home with the players that the attack was subdued in the Autumn! We have had some disruption around the attack/skills coach and covid hasn't helped it but come on surely May knows he wasn't getting his hands on the ball as often! Seems that the players have taken that on themselves eventually and that's the sort of thing that they should be applauded for. Certainly since Scotland there has been a definite change and with it seemingly led by the players (perhaps Robinson too?) puts the one about Jones' not listening partially to bed.

Still wasn't as seamless as a team display as we have seen under Jones so lets hope (England fans at least) that everything slots into place at the weekend.

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Post by doctor_grey Wed 17 Mar 2021, 5:29 pm

Well, he said all the right things, though omitting serious mention of the pens given away.

I know how he feels about pressure. At my club I always feel pressure to see our few women fans with big boobs celebrate exuberantly.

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Post by lostinwales Wed 17 Mar 2021, 5:37 pm

Much talking up of Tom Curry in the press. Probably premature, but he is ridiculously accomplished for a 22yr old.

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Post by hugehandoff Wed 17 Mar 2021, 7:18 pm

lostinwales wrote:Much talking up of Tom Curry in the press. Probably premature, but he is ridiculously accomplished for a 22yr old.

Surely his twin must be pretty good too? Be great to have both playing?

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Post by majesticimperialman Wed 17 Mar 2021, 9:22 pm

This is going to be a cracking game bith teams needing a big performance, it is a must win game for both teams.. ...I just hope we see no red cards and no injuries to any players.....And of course an England win. Come on England. Very Happy Yahoo Yahoo Yahoo

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Post by quinsforever Wed 17 Mar 2021, 11:13 pm

i think England are going to win emphatically. just stars aligned and all that.

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Post by No 7&1/2 Thu 18 Mar 2021, 8:26 am

lostinwales wrote:Much talking up of Tom Curry in the press. Probably premature, but he is ridiculously accomplished for a 22yr old.

https://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/rugby-union/56431244

Proudfoot mainly. A bit unusual within the current setup as Jones normally directs the media traffic off his players. He started off brilliantly but the improvements to his game since he came in are astounding to be frank. I can't remember who said it recently on here, but he comes and works hard, but we need a lineout option and so suddenly he's a go to guy. This time we're looking around and the ball carriers in the pack aren't quite there; suddenly he's smashing through France consistently. It's not a mind set with him, he works so hard. Loved the bit behind the scenes with martin as well, helping him set his body in mauls better, not just hard working but making sure he pulls his team mates along with him. The comparison to McCaw here isnt to say he is as good as the all time great now but that he has that same drive for himself and his team. We're very very lucky with England that we have him, Itoje and Barbeary at differnet stages of their careers but look like they will be in discussions for the best england side already.

Watch him pick up a red cards after 2 minutes now!

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Post by WELL-PAST-IT Thu 18 Mar 2021, 8:45 am

When are the teams announced?
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Post by Oakdene Thu 18 Mar 2021, 8:56 am

Curry is very very good but I feel, as an outsider looking in, that he isn't as effective when he hasn't got his mate Underhill packing down with him. Reminds me a bit of when we used to play Warburton & Lydiate, they were immense together but Saw wasn't as good when Lydiate was out.

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Post by mountain man Thu 18 Mar 2021, 8:57 am

WELL-PAST-IT wrote:When are the teams announced?

Can't remember if it's 10:00 or 12:00 but one of those. Today.

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Post by No 7&1/2 Thu 18 Mar 2021, 9:00 am

Ha, was going to say 11 Mountain!

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Post by No 7&1/2 Thu 18 Mar 2021, 9:02 am

Oakdene wrote:Curry is very very good but I feel, as an outsider looking in, that he isn't as effective when he hasn't got his mate Underhill packing down with him. Reminds me a bit of when we used to play Warburton & Lydiate, they were immense together but Saw wasn't as good when Lydiate was out.

He didn't have a great game vs Scotland when he was doing the lifting for 3 certainly. My potm in the last game though and was good against Wales. He got in the team when Underhill was injured though and put in potms perfmormances. There's always the balance in rugby though, the nuts and bolts of 1 position certainly highlight or undermine others.

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Post by mountain man Thu 18 Mar 2021, 9:08 am

No 7&1/2 wrote:Ha, was going to say 11 Mountain!

Seeing as Eddie can be quite contrary it'll probably now be 19:17 or something..

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Post by Oakdene Thu 18 Mar 2021, 9:13 am

WELL-PAST-IT wrote:When are the teams announced?

England, France & Wales 11:00
Scotland 13:30
Italy 14:00
Ireland 16:00

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Post by lostinwales Thu 18 Mar 2021, 9:14 am

Oakdene wrote:Curry is very very good but I feel, as an outsider looking in, that he isn't as effective when he hasn't got his mate Underhill packing down with him. Reminds me a bit of when we used to play Warburton & Lydiate, they were immense together but Saw wasn't as good when Lydiate was out.

I don't think he needs Underhill to shine but it does highlight how good Underhill can be, in that he makes space for the others to do their thing. When the backrow were working best I believe they had Underhill competing for everything but Curry having the option to pick and choose when he got involved at the breakdown, and he chooses very well. I think this makes for a more eye catching performance.

Underhill always seems to be the backrow player most under threat, and yet when he comes back from the (sadly inevitable) injury breaks he tends to produce the kinds of performances that put those threats to rest.

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Post by No 7&1/2 Thu 18 Mar 2021, 9:17 am

Bar Willis, lost. Whose own long term injuries have put his shout to bed Sad

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Post by lostinwales Thu 18 Mar 2021, 9:27 am

No 7&1/2 wrote:Bar Willis, lost. Whose own long term injuries have put his shout to bed Sad

You are right on that one. He looked made for international rugby. We can only hope he makes a full recovery.


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