England Changes Vs Ireland?

I thought it was a good all round team performance from England against the Scots, particularly in the pack but I do not think anyone had a bad game as such. England showed the intent to move the ball quickly throughout the game, this did leave them open to turnovers and counter attacks, as a result of this the likes of brown and Goode were stretched defensively. So despite what could be perceived as flaky defensive displays I think Lancaster will continue with, what has been his policy up to this point, and try to pick the same team next week.

At this point I have to say that Mike Browns positioning and decision making out on the wing was directly responsible for the Scots first try, in a game where England are not so dominant up front it is errors like this that could lead to crucial scores. I thought Brown was excellent again in attack and want to see him in the team vs Ireland. I am sure im not the only one who would like to see brown at full back and a winger brought in but I dont think Lancaster will do this as there are no wingers in the squad demanding selection. Wade should be in the squad.

Apart from that we have the potential return of Tuilagi. Now, a fit and firing tuilagi is a certain starter but the policy is play your way back in, and he should be given every opportunity to do so from the bench, if he does come back firing then the question of who he replaces will be asked on the next test weekend.

The only other selection questions may come from injuries and knocks that tend to emerge in the days after a test match but the only one I have heard is Morgans ankle and nothing to suggest he is not fit, if he isnt, its Haskell for me. Haskell is unfortunate not to be in the side anyway, different player to morgan but against a strong Irish back row it could be a benefit having him there.

From what I read all over some were impressed by Twelvetrees, in my opinion he is the only one I will replace. His distribution at times were lacking, a few times he chose to go into contact where an offload would have been the better choice.

But I agree all over England showed good intent and had ball in hand a lot. I just hope they continue with this same intensity and game plan and don't decide to be as intent as last year by trying to scrum Irlenad off the ball.

They have shown the ability to attack out wide and have also learn't when to do it and when not. I think Farrell is really imrpving his distribution and skills.

It will be a good game.

you may well be right biltong, tui could come back in for 12trees.

what i will say is that barritt should remain, his value to england is vastly understated

I'd only make two changes: Tuilagi in for Barritt, Foden in for Brown.

Assuming Morgan is fit, I'd stay with the same pack, and if not then I agree that Haskell would be a good option - may not be as dangerous an open-field runner as Morgan, but is so powerful at making those extra couple of metres in close quarters. I noticed when Morgan went off it was actually Wood packing down at 8 and Haskell on the blind-side.

The backs - I'd like a bit more pace in the back 3, as I thought a couple of times we played ourselves into trouble because neither Brown nor Goode are really quick. Also, if we are going to be as attack-minded with the off-loading game as we looked on Saturday, having a second player (aong with Ashton) who has length of the field pace will be very valuable. Perhaps Foden back on the wing and Brown to full-back. Oh, and tell Brown that sometimes just kicking to touch is a decent idea...

Bilt, I'm not sure that your criticism of 12trees is entirely justified, as I think most of the time even when he ended up going to ground he was looking for any opportunity to off-load, but there simply wasn't the support in the right place. Give him a couple of quicker support players (Manu and a faster left wing and fullback) and he might look a lot better.

To be honest though, it would be harsh to drop anyone that played on Saturday - one of England's better performances in a long time. I don't think any of the starting XV would rate at less than 7 out of 10, which is about as good as you could hope.

Dummyhalf, I just think Tuilagi is the man to take contact at full tilt, he will be much better at it than Twelvetrees, and also Tuilagi and Barrit seems to have clicked last time round against NZ.

Hartley for Youngs
Haskell in if Morgan not Fit.
Tuilagi in but I can't decide if I would play 36 or Barritt alongside him).
Strettle or Wade on the Wing to replace Brown, as England need a proper Winger and more pace out wide.
Brown for Goode. He has done nothing wrong but I think Brown is the better FB and I like his aggression.

Lancaster's not afraid of rotation, and he's already publicly said that he sees the England team as more of a group of 40 players - he'll just pick the 23 that A) are on form B) fit the tactics they go with. Both dependent of injury of course.

With 36 doing a Launchbury and taking to test level play like a duck to water (yes, there's room for improvment, but when isn't there?) that adds another string to our bow. Obviously Tuilangi was off the menu due to injury last weekend, but i think Ireland selection will depend on what tactics they want to go with as opposed to anything else. This sounds conservative but we need a solid defense in the 12 channel against the meastro that is BOD and Barritt would make a great defensive foil with Tuilangi on the outside. If he's match fit, i think we will see a return to the Barritt/Tuilangi 12/13 for Sunday's game.

Obviously Tuilagi will come back in... the match up against BOD will be immense and I expect him if fully refreshed to give a good showing.

Twelvetrees or Barritt.... well Barritt is the better tackler even though Twelvetrees is no slouch.
Does England need a tackling demon at 12??? I would suggest no, not against D'arcy and IRE backrow. If it was Nonu then perhaps.

Twelvetrees offers a lot in terms of a 2nd receiver however and I think ENG will need this to take the pressure off Farrell who will be targeted by O'Brien et al.

TBH id be surprised if there were changes that werent injury enforced.

36 Barrit Tuilagi is perhaps the hardest choice, although Tuilagi has been out for a long time so even if he is fully fit does the lack of gametime make it easier to stick with the winning combo? Or go back to the combo that took apart nz? Or bring in Tuillagi for barrit and go all out on attack? Barrit is out of position at 13 and seriously lacks pace there, he may be the defensive organiser but his own positioning may have been suspect at times.

Browns Goode Foden is the other tough choice. Brown ran the ball a ridiculous distance, but again seemed to get caught out of position a couple of times...hardly surprising for another player being put in a role hes not used to. Goode at fullback was pretty anonymous, a back line with 36 doesnt require him stepping in so much and rather negates the point of having him picked in the first place. The build up to the first and the run in for the second scotland try can partly be blamed on the back 3 being out of position and cover just not being there or being slow to get across.
Id like to see Foden on the bench at least.

Injury replacement for Morgan if required? Its Haskell or Waldrom, other as the bench option.

Disappointed by Alex Goode and Mike Brown. I thought they were both our weakest players.

I would probably start Brown at FB. Drop Alex unfortunately.

In regards to left wing, the options are Foden, Brown again or Strettle. Hardly any of them fill me with confidence. I suppose I would pick Strettle purely because he is a 11.


I thought 36 had a great debut but I do remember on one occasion when he was really greedy and instead of passing he tried to run. Butchered an overlap I believe.

The centres conundrum is very tough. I would say that Manu has to come back in at 13 with either 36 or Brad at 12.

I'd also bring back Hartley as I think the pack needs his bite... the front row of Marler and Youngs looks a little too inexperienced and lightweight... against a very good unit of Healy, Best and Ross.

My England team with three changes:

1. Marler- More of the same from Joe, keep growing the beard!
2. Youngs- More of the same but no silly pens!
3. Cole- Needs to get a bit more fired up for the Irish but he's key for us.
4. Launchberry- To help counter the big Irish locks, maybe Lawes coming on earlier though?
5. Parling- Sharpen up that lineout!
6. Wood- Brings the physicality that we need, just needs to bring it for the full 80 and not in drips and drabs
7. Robshaw- Maybe a bit more groundhog work? Or am I being picky?
8. Morgan- Hope he isn't injured as the way he flattened all before him was brilliant! Hask just doesn't bring that bulk.
9. Youngs- Did nothing to warrant dropping and looks back on track, lost weight too?
10. Farrel- Kicking will be key against the Irish and tackling the massive backrow
11. Foden/Strettle- Hhhmmm I'd actually look at Monye as he has the pace and physicality to mark the fast and deadly Irish wingers. Strettle tackles like a queen and Foden is another 15 out of position
12. 36- Has done nothing to be dropped and like Farrel looks a big game player
13. Barritt- Potentially his final game as a starter but I'd like him there just to help manage BOD at least for the first 50
14. Ashton- Needs to be on top form to manage his opposite number but seems to be coming back on form and we'll need his try scoring skills
15. Brown- Gives us that defense and counter attack ability we need at the back, good boot as well.

16, Wilson 17, Hartley 18, Vunipola 19, Lawes 20, Haskell 21, Care 22, Flood 23, Tuilagi

So it's no changes in the pack which is amazing as I can not remember a 6N's without us winging about pods, static carrying, dodgy rucking or forwards always in the backline!

Then in the backs Brown moves to 15 as a test of skills, Foden/Strettle come on to the left wing to hopefully secure that side and Manu takes the 23 shirt to add a heck of an impact in the second half (hopefully just when BOD's tiring).

surprised to see people suggesting so many changes, for me its just a case of where tuilagi starts the game, probably on the bench at the expense of strettle.

HQMatt

I'm not expecting many changes (other than forced ones - Morgan has to be a question mark). As you say, the big question for Ireland is whether Manu starts or is on the bench.

I think in the longer term we'll see Foden back in, probably on the wing, and Brown moved back to 15 - I think Goode's slight lack of pace counts against him in defence, and that his play-making abilities are less useful with 12trees on the pitch.

HQ matt wrote:surprised to see people suggesting so many changes, for me its just a case of where tuilagi starts the game, probably on the bench at the expense of strettle.

I don't think three changes (1 positional and two players) is a lot for a squad that needs to play the whole tournament. We need to find our best possible 15, grow a bit of strength in depth and win the 6N's and it's obvious that while the back three situation is ok as a stop gap it isn't anywhere near perfect, the centres are very good but need the right mix as well.

I'm torn between 36 and Barritt, I reckon it will be down to how they pair up in training with Manu, but then Manu could start on the bench and I'll be ok with that

dummy half

i agree. long term foden should return, he was englands best back(by some margin) for nearly 2 years. the difficulty is that either goode or brown would would have to drop out of the 23 all together, there just isnt space for 3 fullbacks in the match day squad.

ideally you would want to re-introduce players to the test arena from the bench, lancaster may not have that luxury with foden.

HQ matt wrote:

ideally you would want to re-introduce players to the test arena from the bench, lancaster may not have that luxury with foden.

Strettle on the wing, brown at fullback *shrug*

Thing is with 36 too is that it was his first cap - and he made mistakes right from the start - he tried to do too much and didnt always know where support was. But the crucial thing was he wasnt phased at all - and he got better through the game.

I think he will continue to get better and better, but only with time on the park. So the question is do you gamble that the good things he does will outweigh the bad (and that the more he plays the less 'bad' there is likely to be) or do you go with the less inspiring but totally dependable Barritt? So many fine balances -also depends on how fit Tuilagi is?

he tried to do too much and didnt always know where support was. But the crucial thing was he wasnt phased at all - and he got better through the game.

That's how I saw it as well.

Marler
Hartley
Cole
Launchbury
Parling
Wood/Haskell
Robshaw
Morgan/Wood
Care
Farrell
Barrit
Tuilagi
Ashton
Brown
Goode

Bench : Wilson, Vunipola, T.Youngs, Lawes, Kvesic, B. Youngs, Flood, Strettle(?)/Wade?/May?

Hopefully Morgan recovers if not then Wood plays 8 with Haskell to 6. We lose nothing in physicality there.
Harsh on the dropees but we need Hartley's drive in the scrum and his leadership. Youngs gave away 3 poor penalties. Youngs will give great thrust from the bench
Care was sharper that Youngs who was at times ponderous with his decision making and passing and who crabbed a little cross field.
Assuming Tuilagi comes back in in the centres. 36 will I suspect take the 12 shirt at some point in this 6N but to start in Dublin where we've not won in 10 years I think we can do with the under rated Barrit to cement the white wall.
I'm keeping Brown at wing because the Irish love to kick the leather off it.

I would much prefer a centre who tries too much and learns from it then one who just never tries.

I think that there are basically two options for the backs (forwards pretty much pick themselves)

either:

9 Youngs
10 Farrell
11 Brown
12 Barritt
13 Tuilagi
14 Ashton
15 Goode

OR

9 Youngs
10 Farrell
11 Foden
12 36
13 Tuilagi/Barritt
14 Ashton
15 Brown

If we play 12T then we don't need Goode at 15 and Brown is the better option. If we don't play 12T then we need Goode for his first receiver skills. We basically play slightly differently if we select 12T or not. I wouldn't even like to say which option is better or worse, they are just different.

Pretty sure SL will continue with the attacking/offloading game and pretty sure it will result in 1 loss. Our handling isn't quite up to that type of game yet, Ashton's pass to Cole's stomach, and Morgan twisting his ankle with an unnecessary and failed offload after a great run being good examples. A counter-attacking side won’t have failed to see their opportunity – good job we’re not playing NZ .

SL’s blind-spot at wing is getting depressing – Brown is a class FB but is not a test winger. I bet he persists with it though. Goode was disappointing and may not be necessary with 36T in. I have no interest with SL’s plan of playing a team until someone plays so badly they’re replaced. Do some more thinking Stu and pick the best team, not the last team.

Brown to FB, Manu back with 36T, and whoever is the best winger in the country in.

What is nice is that we are debating which would be our best side, but there is no longer a question of "if player x gets injured we're F***ed" any more.

If Farrell is injured we have Flood (and maybe Burns)
If Ashton gets injured there is Strettle (and maybe Wade)
If Barritt Gets injured there is 12T
If 12T gets injured there is Barritt
If Tuilagi is injured we can play 12T and Barritt or bring in JJ
If Brown is injured we have Foden/Strettle
If Goode is injured we have Foden/Brown.

In the forwards we have 2 decent LHs, 2 good Hookers, Dan Cole (Wilson isn't awful either, though this is our weakest position), 3 top quality 2nd Rows, 5 top quality Back rows.

Compared to a couple of years ago we are in a far better position!

Team from 2011 6 nations:


15 FB
Ben Foden
14 W
Chris Ashton
13 C
Mike Tindall (c)
12 C
Shontayne Hape
11 W
Mark Cueto
10 FH
Toby Flood
9 SH
Ben Youngs
1 P
Alex Corbisiero
2 H
Dylan Hartley
3 P
Dan Cole
4 L
Louis Deacon
5 L
Tom Palmer
6 F
Tom Wood
7 F
James Haskell
8 N8
Nick Easter
Replacements
16 H
Steve Thompson
17 P
Paul Doran Jones
18 L
Simon Shaw
19 F
Tom Croft
20 SH
Danny Care
21 FH
Jonny Wilkinson
22 C
Matt Banahan

I agree with most about what has been said here.

I don't think we need the extra 'playmaking' full back if 36 plays, we need the pace out wide to feed off the good things he can do. So for me, if Billy plays, Brown should move to fullback and Foden should come in on the wing. If, however, he goes with Barritt and Tuilagi, i think he should stick with what he has in the back three.

Do we think he might play Tuilagi on the wing? I hope not...

For what its worth i would play Billy and Barritt in the centres - the kicking option this offers away from home sways it for me - and put brown to fullback and Foden on the wing, Tuilagi on the bench (just for Ireland). I like Browns massive boot at the back, especially away from home, and Fodens pace not only going forward but also in defense, i feel, is invaluable. People forget how good Foden is in defense. Harsh on Goode but as i say, i don't think we need what he offers with Billy on the park, especially in Dublin.

Like almost everyone, if morgan is injured, bring haskell and then kvesic in. If not leave well alone (with the possible exception of Hartley - irish lineout is a worry for england)

xx

Barney McGrew did it wrote:Pretty sure SL will continue with the attacking/offloading game and pretty sure it will result in 1 loss. Our handling isn't quite up to that type of game yet, Ashton's pass to Cole's stomach, and Morgan twisting his ankle with an unnecessary and failed offload after a great run being good examples. A counter-attacking side won’t have failed to see their opportunity – good job we’re not playing NZ .

SL’s blind-spot at wing is getting depressing – Brown is a class FB but is not a test winger. I bet he persists with it though. Goode was disappointing and may not be necessary with 36T in. I have no interest with SL’s plan of playing a team until someone plays so badly they’re replaced. Do some more thinking Stu and pick the best team, not the last team.

Brown to FB, Manu back with 36T, and whoever is the best winger in the country in.

Agree that we dont need 3 playmakers so it really does need to be a 36 or Goode scenario.

Barney

you're too negative though. our offloading style keeps us on the front foot, it slows the defensive line speed of the opposition and makes a win for England more likely not less likely.

That being said it has been acknowledged by England that some of the passes were pushed and they do need to settle that down a little. Tone the offloading game down a tad but keep it.

If Goode plays he needs to be a little bit more conservative in terms of coming up into the line because we did get caught out a couple of times on turnover and at the back.

So if we were to rule out Foden and Strettle at 11 and could pick from the Saxons as well as the EPS who would people want on the wing?

This is assuming that Brown's at 15.

I'd take May, he's more rounded then Wade, has more experience and a better kicking game and can still create magic.

Barney McGrew did it wrote:Pretty sure SL will continue with the attacking/offloading game and pretty sure it will result in 1 loss. Our handling isn't quite up to that type of game yet, Ashton's pass to Cole's stomach, and Morgan twisting his ankle with an unnecessary and failed offload after a great run being good examples. A counter-attacking side won’t have failed to see their opportunity – good job we’re not playing NZ .

SL’s blind-spot at wing is getting depressing – Brown is a class FB but is not a test winger. I bet he persists with it though. Goode was disappointing and may not be necessary with 36T in. I have no interest with SL’s plan of playing a team until someone plays so badly they’re replaced. Do some more thinking Stu and pick the best team, not the last team.

Brown to FB, Manu back with 36T, and whoever is the best winger in the country in.

We'll def lose some games playing this way, but hopefully we'll win more then we lose and even the losses will be entertaining. And if we are struggling SL could always pick more Quins boys.

Yapp, pity Lions favourite Khon has already been picked up by Wales eh

"Maybe it is just me," reckoned Geoff Parling, the Eeyore of this England team, "Maybe I'm a miserable Bar Steward." Parling reckoned that England were stuck in third or, at best, fourth gear against Scotland. There were, he said, plenty of mistakes to pick over in the days before the match in Dublin, where England have lost four of their last five games. But no, it was not just Parling who thought that. Others said the same... ... The lugubrious Leicester lock may, though, have been the only one who reckoned that it was his flop over the line that made England's third try rather than the loopy miss-pass from Owen Farrell that landed slap in his lap. "Yeah, Faz wasn't bad, was he? But how about that finish?"

That's exactly what we want to hear.

Peter Seabiscuit Wheeler wrote:Yapp, pity Lions favourite Khon has already been picked up by Wales eh

I know! After the summer Lancaster will be kicking himself when he's just watched Kohn complete his hatrick of tries to seal the series win for the Lions.

Wasnt particularly impressed with Brown though I doubt he will be dropped as SL seems to be more likely to back his players and stick with a core 15 than former England coaches.

Despite a good showing Im sure 36 will make way for ManuT. Hope not though.

By the way, anyone know why OF puts on a lobsided special face when he is taking kicks? Im sure all the kids will be copying that a bit like they copied Jonny's handcupping dump position before.

Triangulation,

You make some good points, and i can see why you might want the extra kicker in the back three...

But i just can't agree about bringing Care back in. Youngs was fantastic at the weekend. He changed the point of attack fantastically, he put tempo in to the game when it was needed and put his foot on the ball (excuse the football parlance) when that was needed. he did do the sideways run on occasion but not excessively, he kept the inside defense very honest throughout, and may have been some of the reason scotland fans are bemoaning their poor line speed in defense. His kicking game can also be a huge asset, both in defense and as an attacking threat, he sees space in behind so quickly.

Care is a very good scrum half and i'm certainly not saying he isn't good enough to play for england . he puts speed into a game very well and can play at a very high tempo. his running skills are also fantastic and covering in defense i think his workrate (as all harlequins players seem to have) is enourmous.


However, the variety and subtlety youngs adds when on form is something england haven't seen the like of in many a year - he really is that good in my opinion.

That said, when not on form care should be picked ahead of him... its just y
Youngs is very much on form right now (i think his role in the NZ win was much underrated too).

Just my opinion, but right now, i am very much sticking by this one.

xx

Like the way we all get two kisses at the end of every post.

Our mobile forwards have enjoyed a lot of success going forward ball in hand, but the Irish "choke tackle" worries me. What is the best way to counter this? If England don't have a gameplan for it there could be plenty of turnovers.

nobbled wrote:Our mobile forwards have enjoyed a lot of success going forward ball in hand, but the Irish "choke tackle" worries me. What is the best way to counter this? If England don't have a gameplan for it there could be plenty of turnovers.

I think this will be an effective ploy for Ireland because of how direct the England backs are and how good Sexton is at executing it.

Best way to counter it is to:

-offload
-pile in with numbers and get momentum moving very quickly forward. That way it is more likely to hit the deck quicker and the ref is more likely to give the attacking team a chance to recycle.
-dont be so direct in attack. Run dummy lines, use back moves, keep the Ireland defense guessing.

It works best for Ireland when we come up against straight running 12s like Pat McCabe or Jamie Roberts. If you want to avoid it dont be so direct.

Watch out for shooters too as this is another way the Ireland D executes this defense. OF will need to mix his game with dinks, chips, cross fields and well executed moves.

GunsGerms wrote:It works best for Ireland when we come up against straight running 12s like Pat McCabe or Jamie Roberts. If you want to avoid it dont be so direct.

Watch out for shooters too as this is another way the Ireland D executes this defense. OF will need to mix his game with dinks, chips, cross fields and well executed moves.

Sounds like another argument in favour of 36 over Barritt then...
I think we have to play Manu at 13 - we need to keep the legend that is BOD busy, and Manu is a bit of a handful...

The England defensive line also use shooters or at least a line in which one or more defenders get in between the ball carrier and anyone he might like to pass to.

It is effective.

The worry for me re the choke tackle is that we will use support runners, binding on to the ball carrier to drive forwards.

Fine so far.......


Except that : 1. it possibly "uses up" an extra attacker ; and 2. i worry, possibly wrongly that this might lead to penalties against us for "players going off their feet" at rucks.

the choke/strangle tackle is highly effective and my head says Ireland will win this unfortunately.

We cannot expect any scrum dominance this time either.

England will win this if they pound the sh1t out of Ireland. Sorry for being vulgar but they have more muscle and it will win them the match. Be warned Ireland will be up for it though. If Ireland had PO'C I'd be confident we would win. We dont so Im not sure. Too close to call. Wouldnt be surprised if one team got hammered either as is often the case in this fixture.

its worth bearing in mind that engalnd have won the last couple of years simply by being better than Ireland on the day. id consider using the same tactic again

GunsGerms wrote:England will win this if they pound the sh1t out of Ireland. Sorry for being vulgar but they have more muscle and it will win them the match. Be warned Ireland will be up for it though. If Ireland had PO'C I'd be confident we would win. We dont so Im not sure. Too close to call. Wouldnt be surprised if one team got hammered either as is often the case in this fixture.

Hold on a minute!!!

1. if we go route 1 - were agreed well be choke/strangle tackled to pieces;

2. ireland have more than enough muscle to counter that. SOB, Heaslip and Healy will be more than a match.

England have to tone down the offloading game a little but otherwise play as they have done in the last 2 games. Possibly with the addition of one or two driving mauls.

Peter Seabiscuit Wheeler wrote:its worth bearing in mind that engalnd have won the last couple of years simply by being better than Ireland on the day. id consider using the same tactic again

Well, if that can be considered a tactic, then yep! With you a 100%!!

Peter Seabiscuit Wheeler wrote:its worth bearing in mind that engalnd have won the last couple of years simply by being better than Ireland on the day. id consider using the same tactic again

and by that logic it is also worth reminding you that Ireland hammered England in their last encounter in Landsdowne in the 6N by being a better team.

GunsGerms wrote:

Peter Seabiscuit Wheeler wrote:its worth bearing in mind that engalnd have won the last couple of years simply by being better than Ireland on the day. id consider using the same tactic again

and by that logic it is also worth reminding you that Ireland hammered England in their last encounter in Landsdowne in the 6N by being a better team.

Of course the last time England and Ireland met at the Aviva (Aug 2011), Ireland were battered by a very physical England. Admittedly it was the first win since 2003 in Dublin - but hey the start of a winning streak

I don't think this ENG side will be battered like they were in 2011... nor Ireland battered up front like they were in 2012.

Going to be a massive game, the biggest in the 6N.

Tuilagi vs. O'Driscoll... if Tuilagi is fit I think BOD will struggle to keep up.

fa0019 wrote:I don't think this ENG side will be battered like they were in 2011... nor Ireland battered up front like they were in 2012.

Going to be a massive game, the biggest in the 6N.

Tuilagi vs. O'Driscoll... if Tuilagi is fit I think BOD will struggle to keep up.

Love it. Please, please, please write off Drico because we all know what happens when people write him off.

Not writing him off.... writing up Tuilagi, the kid is awesome.