Ireland XV vs Fiji, Match Thread and Build-Up

by **Notch** Mon Nov 12, 2012 3:48 pm

Looking ahead to this game, Eoin Reddan is a doubt apparently but there are no other new injury concerns. Ferris and O'Connell are confirmed out of this and next week.

I've already talked about the issue of this game not being considered a full international which can be found HERE and we should should probably try and keep discussion of that issue to the relevant thread.

I'm very much of the opinion that we should largely keep the same team. I don't see how wholesale changes are going to help prepare the firsts for Argentina. There should of course be a few tweaks (please put Earls back in the back three) but this team needs time on the pitch together. Of course, I think our problems run deeper than a lack of pitch time together but we're in a desperate situation here. We need to beat Argentina and this game has to be treated as a dry run for the week after.

by BelfastDickVet Mon Nov 12, 2012 4:19 pm

This game should be used more to assess the bench options and the marginal first team calls for the Argentina game. So we should be starting the young Munster loose-head (name has left me right now) i wonder if Declan Fitzpatrick is back from his mandatory time out due to the knock to the head he received? Also we should retain Strauss as i don't feel Cronin is up to the standard required for international rugby. he is a great player for Leinster but that doesn't mean he will be a great player for Ireland.

start Touhy along with Ryan as McCarthy put in a good shift at the weekend. Henderson in the back row along with POM and Henry. I feel POM needs to up his game here. I wasn't overly impressed by him at the weekend, if Henderson out shines him against Fiji I reckon he should be dropped to the bench.

Marshal should start this one, especially if reddan is an injury worry as it will give him some game time if he is need off the bench in the final game. If kidney is insistent on keeping ROG in the 22 then he should start this one as we need to see if he is still able to marshal an (unofficial) international game and then spring sexton off the bench.

We should Try cave at 13 to see how he fairs against the large hard running Fijians and to be honest we need to assess what we have got in the 13 area as earls is certainly not the answer. I also reckon we should start Luke marshal as he is the most likely to succeed D'arcy, he is a very intelligent and astute rugby player who would gain a lot form starting in this match, as the one thing he lacks is a bit of decision making in particular areas. I think McFadden will alway be a utility player and not a starter so there is little gained form starting him here.

Retain the back three as they didn't always gel at the weekend and could do with a bit more time together.

In my mind I have picked this team with no provincial bias, I feel it is important to state this, due to the nature of previous Ireland threads.

1) kilcoyne
2) Strauss
3) Deccie Fitz (if fit) or Ross ( test his fitness further)
4) Ryan
5) Touhy
6) Henderson
7) Henry
8) POM
9) Paul Marshal
10) ROG ( this could negate marshal fast service though) I would prefer to have either madrigal or Jackson but I have chosen ROG for the reasons above
11) Trimble
12) Luke Marshal
13) Cave
14) Bowe
15) Zebo

by **Notch** Mon Nov 12, 2012 4:38 pm

I would start this team;

Healy-Strauss-Ross
Ryan-McCarthy
Henderson-O'Mahony(c)-Henry

Marshall-Sexton

D'Arcy-Cave
Earls-Zebo-Trimble

With a bench of Cronin, Kilcoyne, Bent, Tuohy, Heaslip, Murray, O'Gara, Bowe

It's pretty much a dry run for the next game. We need a new centre combination, the pack obviously needs as little disruption as possible to work on the lineout, Zebo needs more gametime to adapt to 15 etc. I think we should only rest Heaslip and Bowe. Everything else is as it will be against the Pumas with Henderson and Trimble dropping back to the bench in that game.

Change the whole front row at half-time, other substitutions to happen early in the second half.

by Warthog Mon Nov 12, 2012 4:43 pm

Belfast Dick claims not to be biased with 9 / 15 players coming from Ulster....

by BelfastDickVet Mon Nov 12, 2012 4:44 pm

But Healy got through some amount of work last week, and you know what you get with him. We should at least test out kilcoyne to see if he is up to it.

by BelfastDickVet Mon Nov 12, 2012 4:45 pm

Warthog wrote:Belfast Dick claims not to be biased with 9 / 15 players coming from Ulster....

Wise your self up, this is a mostly second/third string team, who would claim to bias here. I have also writen a justification for any selection i have made so argue against that instead of making a moronic comment.

Poor first post!

by Warthog Mon Nov 12, 2012 4:47 pm

Oh it isn't my first, Dick. No by a long way. And you need to "catch yerself on" if you think I need to "wise up".. Shocked

by pete (buachaill on eirne) Mon Nov 12, 2012 4:47 pm

I'm with Notch on this one Dick I gota say. A week ago, jeez less, I was all for trying out young guys but we now HAVE TO beat Argentina to stay in the top8 for sure. If Scotland get a win against S.Africa (and it has happened before up there) then we are sunk. I would put in a few changes as well but not many.

Does anyone think that Bent looked so much better than Ross when he came on? Scrum was great and his carrying was such an improvement on Ross.

Agree that POM needs a big game pretty soon he was poor in NZ too.

I'd keep Ryan and McCarthy together because if they start the week after and I think they will then this game could stand to them.

By god Earls needs to get out of that midfield.

Healy-Strauss-Bent
Keeping the same personnel other than Bent who looked really good when he came on.

Ryan-McCarthy
Need game time ahead of the Pumas

Henderson-POM-Henry (c)
POM and Henderson I think are in a shoot out for the 6 jersey.

Marshall-Sexton
Starting Marshall ahead of Murray because if Reddan doesn't make the Pumas then Marshall needs some match time with Sexton.

Darcy-Bowe
Earls is not a centre IMO and I want to try Tommy there to see if he can provide a spark and deal with the defensive role.

Earls-Zebo-Trimble
Putting Earls back on the wing and retaining Zebo at 15 to gain further experience.

Cronin-Kilcoyne-Ross-Tuohy-Heaslip-Murray-Jackson-Cave
If Bowe isn't cutting it put in Cave and Bowe can move to wing if necessary. No place for ROG who shouldn't be in the training squad at this stage. Kilcoyne looked good in his time on the pitch so stays ahead of Court.

by BelfastDickVet Mon Nov 12, 2012 4:48 pm

Lol go back to the playground and leave the bickering out of this thread.

by Warthog Mon Nov 12, 2012 4:51 pm

Basically I would like to see Trimble dropped, Marshall and Jackson given a run, Bent on for 65 minutes with Healy rested.

Touhy deserves a run and so does Gilroy (playing great stuff).

Cave is not international standard and if we want to build for the future in this problematic position, we need real contenders. Cave isn't it.

Also, I don't think Ferris is worth counting on, unfortunately. He is always injured.

I think we have seen the last of POC in an Irish shirt.

by Warthog Mon Nov 12, 2012 4:52 pm

Ha catch yerself on sonny. No one's bickering but yerself hey...

by **rodders** Mon Nov 12, 2012 4:53 pm

Boyne have you locked yourself out again?.... Whistle

by BelfastDickVet Mon Nov 12, 2012 4:53 pm

pete (buachaill on eirne) wrote:I'm with Notch on this one Dick I gota say. A week ago, jeez less, I was all for trying out young guys but we now HAVE TO beat Argentina to stay in the top8 for sure. If Scotland get a win against S.Africa (and it has happened before up there) then we are sunk. I would put in a few changes as well but not many.

Does anyone think that Bent looked so much better than Ross when he came on? Scrum was great and his carrying was such an improvement on Ross.

Agree that POM needs a big game pretty soon he was poor in NZ too.

I'd keep Ryan and McCarthy together because if they start the week after and I think they will then this game could stand to them.

By god Earls needs to get out of that midfield.

Healy-Strauss-Bent
Keeping the same personnel other than Bent who looked really good when he came on.

Ryan-McCarthy
Need game time ahead of the Pumas

Henderson-POM-Henry (c)
POM and Henderson I think are in a shoot out for the 6 jersey.

Marshall-Sexton
Starting Marshall ahead of Murray because if Reddan doesn't make the Pumas then Marshall needs some match time with Sexton.

Darcy-Bowe
Earls is not a centre IMO and I want to try Tommy there to see if he can provide a spark and deal with the defensive role.

Earls-Zebo-Trimble
Putting Earls back on the wing and retaining Zebo at 15 to gain further experience.

Cronin-Kilcoyne-Ross-Tuohy-Heaslip-Murray-Jackson-Cave
If Bowe isn't cutting it put in Cave and Bowe can move to wing if necessary. No place for ROG who shouldn't be in the training squad at this stage. Kilcoyne looked good in his time on the pitch so stays ahead of Court.

I do see where you guys are coming from, the logic behind my selection was that we are going to have three tests against strong hard hitting teams and no doubt by the third match our players will be abit fatigued and there may be some injuries by that stage, so we need to know that our boys on the bench are up to the task as this is such a must win game for us. But in fairness maybe dry run of the team for Argentina would be the best thing, to try and iron out a few of the problems which hampered us against the boks.

by Warthog Mon Nov 12, 2012 4:54 pm

Court
Cronin
Bent
McCarthy
Touhy
McLaughlin
Henry
Heaslip
Marshall
Jackson
Zebo
Bowe
McFadden
Gilroy
Earls

by Warthog Mon Nov 12, 2012 4:55 pm

Rodders, I am truly stunned.

by BelfastDickVet Mon Nov 12, 2012 4:56 pm

Warthog wrote:Ha catch yerself on sonny. No one's bickering but yerself hey...

Sorry mate I just don't want another thread to go down the toilet like so many of the last few have.

by pete (buachaill on eirne) Mon Nov 12, 2012 5:16 pm

We need to win the Pumas game the Fiji game is largely irrelevant so anything that can be done in it to help us win the Puma game should be done.

Is that a statement that people agree with?

by BelfastDickVet Mon Nov 12, 2012 5:19 pm

I am coming round to that idea.

by Mickado Mon Nov 12, 2012 5:36 pm

Pete I agree with that.

by LeinsterFan4life Mon Nov 12, 2012 5:49 pm

pete (buachaill on eirne) wrote:We need to win the Pumas game the Fiji game is largely irrelevant so anything that can be done in it to help us win the Puma game should be done.

Is that a statement that people agree with?

No we want to win the Fiji game. This is a great opportunity to give players like Kilcoyne, Henderson and jackson some experience on the international stage. The players that get picked for this game should be going out and threating it like it is a test match.

We need to break out of this losing habbit.

by pete (buachaill on eirne) Mon Nov 12, 2012 6:03 pm

If we need to break out of this losing habit and treat this game like a test match why not put out our best XV? Kilcoyne and Jackson definitely aren't included in that bracket and Henderson is a long shot.

by LeinsterFan4life Mon Nov 12, 2012 6:05 pm

pete (buachaill on eirne) wrote:If we need to break out of this losing habit and treat this game like a test match why not put out our best XV? Kilcoyne and Jackson definitely aren't included in that bracket and Henderson is a long shot.

I said the players that get picked need to treat it like a test match. This is a serioulsy weakend Fiji side. Probably the worst Fiji side ive ever seen TBH. We need to be winning this game.

by Pete C (Kiwireddevil) Mon Nov 12, 2012 6:07 pm

Warthog wrote:Rodders, I am truly stunned.

I'm impressed at his guessing skills too, I had to do an IP check to figure it out Wink

by pete (buachaill on eirne) Mon Nov 12, 2012 6:25 pm

Disagree Leinsterfan for life:

We do not need to win this game, it would be god awful if we didn't win it but we don't need to.
To ensure we stay in the top 8 of the World Rankings and give Deccies successor a chance in the next world cup we do need to win the game vs the Pumas.

If giving our first string guys another go means that they have a better chance of doing that then I am all for it

by **rodders** Mon Nov 12, 2012 6:27 pm

It was easy Kiwi... there's not many in these parts crazy enough to pick McFadden at centre .... had to be Boyne or Gibbo Wink

..and even Gibbo wouldn't dare write O'Connell off with the Munster boys around...... Whistle

....

by pete (buachaill on eirne) Mon Nov 12, 2012 6:29 pm

Rodders detective extraordaire!

New emoticon needed

by **rodders** Mon Nov 12, 2012 6:32 pm

:columbo:

... now if I could just work out who awop is..... Whistle

by **Notch** Mon Nov 12, 2012 6:35 pm

We will win this game, lads. Might even score a few tries too because there is a gulf of class in terms of individuals available to Ireland and Fiji.

Our forwards will win it. What we should do is treat this as a dress rehearsal for Argentina.

by pete (buachaill on eirne) Mon Nov 12, 2012 6:40 pm

Notch wrote:We will win this game, lads. Might even score a few tries too because there is a gulf of class in terms of individuals available to Ireland and Fiji.

Our forwards will win it. What we should do is treat this as a dress rehearsal for Argentina.

by LeinsterFan4life Mon Nov 12, 2012 6:42 pm

pete (buachaill on eirne) wrote:Disagree Leinsterfan for life:

We do not need to win this game, it would be god awful if we didn't win it but we don't need to.
To ensure we stay in the top 8 of the World Rankings and give Deccies successor a chance in the next world cup we do need to win the game vs the Pumas.

If giving our first string guys another go means that they have a better chance of doing that then I am all for it

The reason why I said we needed to win this game is because the players need to get out of this losing habit they now have with Ireland.

by pete (buachaill on eirne) Mon Nov 12, 2012 6:43 pm

LeinsterFan4life wrote:
pete (buachaill on eirne) wrote:Disagree Leinsterfan for life:

We do not need to win this game, it would be god awful if we didn't win it but we don't need to.
To ensure we stay in the top 8 of the World Rankings and give Deccies successor a chance in the next world cup we do need to win the game vs the Pumas.

If giving our first string guys another go means that they have a better chance of doing that then I am all for it
The reason why I said we needed to win this game is because the players need to get out of this losing habit they now have with Ireland.

It's our first team that are used to losing with ireland surely they are the ones who could use the psychological boost rather than Kilcoyne and Jackson?

by LeinsterFan4life Mon Nov 12, 2012 6:46 pm

pete (buachaill on eirne) wrote:
LeinsterFan4life wrote:
pete (buachaill on eirne) wrote:Disagree Leinsterfan for life:

We do not need to win this game, it would be god awful if we didn't win it but we don't need to.
To ensure we stay in the top 8 of the World Rankings and give Deccies successor a chance in the next world cup we do need to win the game vs the Pumas.

If giving our first string guys another go means that they have a better chance of doing that then I am all for it
The reason why I said we needed to win this game is because the players need to get out of this losing habit they now have with Ireland.

It's our first team that are used to losing with ireland surely they are the ones who could use the psychological boost rather than Kilcoyne and Jackson?

But if those guys are going to be on the bench against ARG wont they need gametime? Kilcoyne was on the bench and Hendo came off the bench, so those need gametime.

why are we having this arguement? Its so stupid. Why would we not want to be winning this game.

by pete (buachaill on eirne) Mon Nov 12, 2012 6:52 pm

this is what the Independent are predicting versus Fiji

Zebo; Bowe, Earls, McFadden, Gilroy; Sexton, Murray; Kilcoyne, Cronin, Bent, Ryan, McCarthy, Henderson, Henry, Heaslip (capt). Subs: Court, Sherry, Archer, McLaughlin, Tuohy, P Marshall, L Marshall, T O'Halloran.

I really hope this is not the team, i have more than one problem with it furious

by Hookisms and Hyperbole Mon Nov 12, 2012 6:54 pm

Selection doesn't matter. Even if some of the fringe players like, for instance Jackson, Cave, Marshall or McLaughlin plays well does anyone believe it will make one jot of difference to Argentinian side. This game is totally irrelevant the shape we are in presently.

by pete (buachaill on eirne) Mon Nov 12, 2012 7:07 pm

Hookisms and Hyperbole wrote:Selection doesn't matter. Even if some of the fringe players like, for instance Jackson, Cave, Marshall or McLaughlin plays well does anyone believe it will make one jot of difference to Argentinian side. This game is totally irrelevant the shape we are in presently.

Hugely disagree Hookisms.

I know things are bad, really bad, but we have to try and keep our head above water for one more month and if we do it means our new coach will have a better chance in the 2015 RWC. This game is MASSIVELY relevant, it has knock on implications that few Six Nations games have. We really need to beat Argentina for the future, not for Kidney, not for certain players but for the guys like ZeBo, Sexton, Henderson, Kearney, Bowe, Earls.

Imagine coming up against the All Blacks and Wales in a World Cup group. It would be horrible.

by Hookisms and Hyperbole Mon Nov 12, 2012 7:12 pm

We won't beat Argentina. The Argentina of old would trundle up with 8 forwards and try and bore us to death. They have moved on, we have gone backwards.

I meant the Fijian game is irrelevant Pete, sorry if I wasn't clear. The Argentina game is massive. What will be learnt from the Fijian game? Will Kidney actually reward players in form? Of course not. We can guess what his selection will be for the Argentina games, with one lunatic selection in there as well.

by pete (buachaill on eirne) Mon Nov 12, 2012 7:20 pm

Oh apologies. Yes the Fijian game is relatively meaningless.

Even if we don't think we can beat Argentina we have to try for the good of our world cup ambitions in 3 years time.

by **Notch** Mon Nov 12, 2012 7:27 pm

pete (buachaill on eirne) wrote:this is what the Independent are predicting versus Fiji

Zebo; Bowe, Earls, McFadden, Gilroy; Sexton, Murray; Kilcoyne, Cronin, Bent, Ryan, McCarthy, Henderson, Henry, Heaslip (capt). Subs: Court, Sherry, Archer, McLaughlin, Tuohy, P Marshall, L Marshall, T O'Halloran.

I really hope this is not the team, i have more than one problem with it

Yeah, it's not great. Not great. I don't see how this would help prepare us for Argentina. I'll be so disappointed if we continue to stop Earls from fulfilling his potential in the back three. He has been genuinely good there and could be again.

by pete (buachaill on eirne) Mon Nov 12, 2012 7:30 pm

Agree again. He isn't the perfect winger and has things to learn but he could be really really good, his raw skills are far better suited to that sort of a role.

If I had one millisecond of brainwashing power on DK and could only make him make one change I'd make him change Murray at 9 I think over Earls at 13. Murray hamstrings our backline to scary levels.

by pete (buachaill on eirne) Mon Nov 12, 2012 7:32 pm

Also I wanted to get this in nice and early: us beating Fiji does not stop our losing record in my opinion. This is not a 'test' match to stop our losing record we need to beat Argentina or failing that wait until the 6N

by Golden Mon Nov 12, 2012 9:37 pm

We only drop out of the top 8 if Scotland beat SA though right?

by **Notch** Mon Nov 12, 2012 10:45 pm

Murray at 9 isn't great but I think he would be passable under a better coaching regime.

Murray being first choice just doesn't make sense to me, in that his natural instinct is to slow things down whereas the other two scrum-halves instinct is to try and inject tempo into the game. When you have a small but pacy backline your best chance of linebreaks is to play at a very quick tempo because you will not cross the gainline against an organised defence if they are lining your guys up from miles out and you've got a small backline. You have to make them scramble.

Murray is one of the contributing factors to this, but our support play is also abysmal. Ball carriers are consistently isolated and never given the option to offload the ball. We are a team whose only hope of causing linebreaks is to keep the tempo extremely high... who insist on taking the ball to ground. Offloading is key to a high-tempo continuity game. A high-tempo continuity game is the only way we can hurt teams.

Why do we slow things down?

by valjester Tue Nov 13, 2012 4:04 am

pete (buachaill on eirne) wrote:Agree again. He isn't the perfect winger and has things to learn but he could be really really good, his raw skills are far better suited to that sort of a role.

If I had one millisecond of brainwashing power on DK and could only make him make one change I'd make him change Murray at 9 I think over Earls at 13. Murray hamstrings our backline to scary levels.

The problem is none of our options at scrumhalf are that good, especially if Reddan is injured. When Reddan came on he didn't improve our game one bit.
Earls at 13 will work if he is given the right partner, you and others are being ridiculously harsh on him in the other thread, I cannot understand how you rate Darcy has having had a better game than him.

Our problems aren't going to be fixed until the coaching ticket is changed. The gameplan and some selections are indefensible. I use the term gameplan loosely because its unclear as to whether or not there is a coherent one. I don't think any of our players could really be awarded higher than a 7 in that match. They were all guilty of mistakes. But our major problem is a lack of size in the backs and without Sob and Ferris no carriers in the forwards.

We also missed the leadership of Poc and Bod. Heaslip may learn in time, but he really struggled to deal with Barnes and I think that the others would have dealt better with him. Although in fairness, to lose our three first choices as captains is extremely unfortunate.

Hopefully for the Fiji game we will see a change in tactics and a look towards the future. But like I said unless we see a change in tactics it will mean little.

I'd like to see, with a view for certain players coming in for the Argentina game;

Kilcoyne Cronin Bent the three that started the SA game should come back in for the Argentina game but need to be rested/wrapped in cotton wool.
Touhy McCarthy with a view of them being the starting pairing against Argentina, Ryan has been poor this season.
Henderson Henry Heaslip with a view of them starting the Argentina game if Henderson goes well
Reddan/Marshall Jackson I never want to see Rog in green again, Paddy's time has come, if Reddan is injured give Marshall a shot and Murray a kick
Marshall Earls if Marshall is allowed play is natural game I think this could be a very good partnership, if Marshall goes well I would chuck him in against Argentina
Toh Zebo Gilroy Zebo needs more time at 15 if he is going to start there again for the Argentina match, he did a lot right in the SA match but his positioning was poor at times and he was running wingers lines instead of fullback lines at times. The two young wings deserve a chance to impress.

Of course this is an extremely optimistic team selection, and we all know that it will be the old favourites starting and that the tactics will be stuck in the past so it won't really make a blind bit of difference what team we select as they will just repeatedly truck it up the middle, creating lovely slow ball and hoping one of Earls or Bowe can conjure a linebreak. I think Kidney may be making be hate the sport. Crying or Very sad

by **rodders** Tue Nov 13, 2012 8:53 am

I honestly don't think this matters a jot.

It's pointless to stick with the main guys he'll play againts Argentina because the match will not in any way provide the preparation for playing the Puma's, a game we must win.

Likewise if he brings in the youngsters and they play well he won't pick them again until the summer no matter how well they play.

Given that there is no caps or ranking points available here he may just experiment with a few combinations for the future, give the likes of Henderson, Marshall and Jackson some experience. Try someone at fullback and a new centre combination.

The team for Argentina will be more or less the same shower who played the Boks, with McFadden on the wing instead of Trimble.

This is a total waste of a fixture imo.

by pete (buachaill on eirne) Tue Nov 13, 2012 9:03 am

Notch wrote:Murray at 9 isn't great but I think he would be passable under a better coaching regime.

Has he even been good at Munster though. He won a MotM at one point but then again Reddan won a MotM against Murray. Personally I believe he needs to re-evaluate what his priorities are. Is he a skillful scrumhalf? The answer is his basic skills (passing, decision making, line running) are all quite poor.

Notch wrote:Murray being first choice just doesn't make sense to me, in that his natural instinct is to slow things down whereas the other two scrum-halves instinct is to try and inject tempo into the game. When you have a small but pacy backline your best chance of linebreaks is to play at a very quick tempo because you will not cross the gainline against an organised defence if they are lining your guys up from miles out and you've got a small backline. You have to make them scramble.

That is what I have been screaming for the last while.

Notch wrote:Murray is one of the contributing factors to this, but our support play is also abysmal. Ball carriers are consistently isolated and never given the option to offload the ball. We are a team whose only hope of causing linebreaks is to keep the tempo extremely high... who insist on taking the ball to ground. Offloading is key to a high-tempo continuity game. A high-tempo continuity game is the only way we can hurt teams.

Didn't really think of this but also true.

by pete (buachaill on eirne) Tue Nov 13, 2012 9:14 am

valjester wrote:
pete (buachaill on eirne) wrote:Agree again. He isn't the perfect winger and has things to learn but he could be really really good, his raw skills are far better suited to that sort of a role.

If I had one millisecond of brainwashing power on DK and could only make him make one change I'd make him change Murray at 9 I think over Earls at 13. Murray hamstrings our backline to scary levels.

The problem is none of our options at scrumhalf are that good, especially if Reddan is injured. When Reddan came on he didn't improve our game one bit.
Earls at 13 will work if he is given the right partner, you and others are being ridiculously harsh on him in the other thread, I cannot understand how you rate Darcy has having had a better game than him.

Our problems aren't going to be fixed until the coaching ticket is changed. The gameplan and some selections are indefensible. I use the term gameplan loosely because its unclear as to whether or not there is a coherent one. I don't think any of our players could really be awarded higher than a 7 in that match. They were all guilty of mistakes. But our major problem is a lack of size in the backs and without Sob and Ferris no carriers in the forwards.

We also missed the leadership of Poc and Bod. Heaslip may learn in time, but he really struggled to deal with Barnes and I think that the others would have dealt better with him. Although in fairness, to lose our three first choices as captains is extremely unfortunate.

Hopefully for the Fiji game we will see a change in tactics and a look towards the future. But like I said unless we see a change in tactics it will mean little.

I'd like to see, with a view for certain players coming in for the Argentina game;

Kilcoyne Cronin Bent the three that started the SA game should come back in for the Argentina game but need to be rested/wrapped in cotton wool.
Touhy McCarthy with a view of them being the starting pairing against Argentina, Ryan has been poor this season.
Henderson Henry Heaslip with a view of them starting the Argentina game if Henderson goes well
Reddan/Marshall Jackson I never want to see Rog in green again, Paddy's time has come, if Reddan is injured give Marshall a shot and Murray a kick
Marshall Earls if Marshall is allowed play is natural game I think this could be a very good partnership, if Marshall goes well I would chuck him in against Argentina
Toh Zebo Gilroy Zebo needs more time at 15 if he is going to start there again for the Argentina match, he did a lot right in the SA match but his positioning was poor at times and he was running wingers lines instead of fullback lines at times. The two young wings deserve a chance to impress.

Of course this is an extremely optimistic team selection, and we all know that it will be the old favourites starting and that the tactics will be stuck in the past so it won't really make a blind bit of difference what team we select as they will just repeatedly truck it up the middle, creating lovely slow ball and hoping one of Earls or Bowe can conjure a linebreak. I think Kidney may be making be hate the sport.

Sorry Val but Earls' had bad game. Darcy had a very good first half IMO but then a very bad 2nd half. Murray didn't help this with wild passes to him in midfield but then again that applies to Earls as well so fair is fair.

Earls had two moments of note, the first I felt was quite spectacular, however it further demonstrated why he should be a winger.

If I was a senior cup coach and my 13 ruined a great attacking 2 on 1 and then passed a 3 on 2 in to touch, I'd be asking myself questions about whether he starts the next game. When he can't defend the gainline I'd ask myself some more questions.

Apologies if you think we are being harsh, IMO he is blatantly not a 13 and I just don't see what people think he is.

by **rodders** Tue Nov 13, 2012 9:18 am

It interesting that TOL is actually playing a lot better at LI.

Murray is a poor scrum half. He has plenty of talent but his descision making and execution is awful.

He's had a couple of decent games for Munster but really he is a defensive scrum half only, or a guy to bring on to attack a tired defense around the fringes. In terms of controlling the game from the base and getting the attack going he simply isn't good enough.

Munster are actually playing very poor and predictable rugby too, Leinster aren't clicking, and take Payne and Williams out and Ulster wouldn't have scored anywhere near as many, so this idea that the provinces are all playing this great attacking rugby is a bit of a myth too.

However what is obvious though is that Leinster, last year and Ulster this are playing a high tempo game based on quick ruck ball, with Reddan and Marshall pivotal to both. Munster are trying to execute the same but are struggling against the better sides because of Murray, ROG and Earls who drift laterally and don't understand how to create space.

Leinster too are struggling without O'Brien and are finding it difficult to get on the front foot.

The national coaches need to take the blame for the lack of a coherent gameplan but lets not pretend there are no issues at provincial level too. However Kidney seems to be taking the worst, rather than best, aspects of the provinces and putting it together into one almighty mess.

by pete (buachaill on eirne) Tue Nov 13, 2012 9:56 am

I'd agree with all of that Rodders.

I think Ulster would do well enough without Payne and Williams (put in Gilroy and Wilson) not as well but well.

I think Leinster are going to get better and better throughout the year but the HCup looks a bridge too far.

Munster will do well with Keatly-Downey-LLL and then their sickeningly good back 3

by pete (buachaill on eirne) Tue Nov 13, 2012 10:09 am

http://www.irishtimes.com/newspaper/sport/2012/1113/1224326524656.html

Archer, Court, Toner, Wilson and Gilroy all called up.
The picture at the top of this article is full blown retarded

by **rodders** Tue Nov 13, 2012 10:22 am

Back 3 players aren't a problem in Ireland, it's the guys inside understanding and being able to create space for them.

The biggest problem we have is that we have an outdated view of what is required from a 9 and 12. The Coaches,media and pundits are 5 or 6 years behind.

The 9 must create quick ball and the 12 must cross the gainline, after that playing attacking rugby is simple, its just about recycling again quickly, support play, offloading...creating mismatches and overlaps, getting across the gainline. If the ball is slow kick deep and pin the opposition back and trust the defence to win it back.

Instead we have coaches obsessed with physical 9's who produce slow ball, 12's who crab sideways and put all our strong runners in the back 3 and wonder why they don't have an impact on the game.

You could put a prime Jonah Lomu on the wing for us but they won't do much if they are getting the service our wings are got on Saturday. It shows how deadly Bowe is that he can keep nicking tries playing in this side.

The side is getting worse, not better, and that is the key reason the coaches need to go.

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