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India v England, First Test Thread

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Post by msp83 Thu 15 Nov 2012, 4:06 am

First topic message reminder :

India won the toss and are batting.
No surprises with the teams.
India
Gautam Gambhir
Virender Sehwag
Cheteshwar Pujara
Sachin Tendulkar
Virat Kohli
Yuvraj Singh
MS Dhoni
R Ashwin
Zaheer Khan
Pragyan Ojha
Umesh Yadav.
No Monty for England and Compton is having his debut.
Nick Compton
Alastair Cook
Jonathan Trott
Kevin Pietersen
Ian Bell
Samit Patel
Matt Prior
Tim Bresnan
Stuart Broad
Graeme Swann
James Anderson.
The pitch seems dry and should take turn.

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Post by Duty281 Sun 18 Nov 2012, 12:27 pm

Shocking stuff, KP_fan, I thought you said the Test was over for England on Day 1? And no comment on how loverboy did?

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Post by DouglasJardinesbox Sun 18 Nov 2012, 12:38 pm

Duty281 wrote:Shocking stuff, KP_fan, I thought you said the Test was over for England on Day 1? And no comment on how loverboy did?

were you a bully at school?

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Post by KP_fan Sun 18 Nov 2012, 12:49 pm

Duty281 wrote:Shocking stuff, KP_fan, I thought you said the Test was over for England on Day 1? And no comment on how loverboy did?

The assesment of a match situation can vary from honest at one end to jingoistically-stupid on the other extreme.

I have tried to be on the honest side.....we all know who is at the other extreme laughing

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Post by guildfordbat Sun 18 Nov 2012, 1:00 pm

Duty281 wrote:I'd be looking at 3 changes for the next Test:

Bairstow in for Bell (although Morgan's a good player of spin)
Finn in for Bresnan (if Finn is fit to play)
Panesar in for Patel

Duty and others - think we just need to go a bit steady here, guys.

In the past Australia used to regularly announce their side for the next Test on day four of the match being played.

Back in 1972 John Benaud, Richie's lesser known kid brother, learnt during a home Test against Pakistan when it was publicly announced that he was being dropped for the next match of that series. He went out the next day and made his highest Test score of 142. Australia soon afterwards changed their practice and have never since named a side whilst a Test was still being played.

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Post by Shelsey93 Sun 18 Nov 2012, 1:16 pm

Tremendous effort today.

Cook looking head-and-shoulders above the rest of the top six (including KP) in these conditions. Still a long way to go, and things could easily be over by lunch if we lose early wickets.

I think Day 4 has already shown why you need to look at the whole Test when selecting a team:

Would England have got by with two seamers, Swann and Panesar today?

After Day 1 it looked like Bresnan was surplus to requirement, but if we'd been in the field today I reckon we'd have needed him.

I'm divided on where to go for the next Test. Panesar should probably play in all honesty, but I also want five bowlers - but I'm not hugely comfortable with Broad at 7 and Finn at 9. Also, if we went to five bowlers you might have Patel at five. Food for thought.

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Post by KP_fan Sun 18 Nov 2012, 1:27 pm

From England's perspective......tomorrow they cannot breathe easier.
The worst mistake they can make is get ahead of themselves like us fans and critics........the've gotta take it 15 minutes by 15 minutes.

For India...the've gotta immediately get into the work hard to get wicket mindset.
The spinners have to bowl slower...flight more......and not try too much variations especially like Ashwin was trying today.......slow flighted stuff on the same slightly full lenght...and pitcch will do the rest.

Interestinhg contest.....Captain Cook has breathed life into the game

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Post by Corporalhumblebucket Sun 18 Nov 2012, 1:33 pm

This match is probably following the "par" course that was the most likely prediction beforehand for the series as a whole. England periodically imploding against the spin, interspersed by periods of spirited back to the wall resistance. Question is which will ultimately dominate the series. It would be an astonishing fightback for England to escape from this hole on the fifth day.

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Post by gboycottnut Sun 18 Nov 2012, 1:34 pm

Shelsey93 wrote:Tremendous effort today.

Cook looking head-and-shoulders above the rest of the top six (including KP) in these conditions. Still a long way to go, and things could easily be over by lunch if we lose early wickets.

I think Day 4 has already shown why you need to look at the whole Test when selecting a team:

Would England have got by with two seamers, Swann and Panesar today?

After Day 1 it looked like Bresnan was surplus to requirement, but if we'd been in the field today I reckon we'd have needed him.

I'm divided on where to go for the next Test. Panesar should probably play in all honesty, but I also want five bowlers - but I'm not hugely comfortable with Broad at 7 and Finn at 9. Also, if we went to five bowlers you might have Patel at five. Food for thought.

Well Ian Bell will be missing the second test, which makes the selection of a 5 man bowling attack more likelier as I cannot see England risking playing both Compton and Bell's replacement Eoin Morgan in the same starting XI. With Prior showing that his technique and form is currently good enough for batting in the top 6, I would move him to 4 above the big show. So here is my England XI for the second test :-

1 Cook
2 Compton
3 Trott
4 Prior
5 Patel
6 Pietersen
7 Bresnan
8 Broad
9 Swann
10 Finn or Anderson (depending on wicket and fitness of Finn)
11 Panesar

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Post by Duty281 Sun 18 Nov 2012, 1:45 pm

KP_fan wrote:
Duty281 wrote:Shocking stuff, KP_fan, I thought you said the Test was over for England on Day 1? And no comment on how loverboy did?

The assesment of a match situation can vary from honest at one end to jingoistically-stupid on the other extreme.

I have tried to be on the honest side.....we all know who is at the other extreme laughing


Wrong way round lad, look at the rubbish you've said:

Day 1 -: "1st test match gone for Eng/gone past even where they (England) can be competitive.../they (India) have enough runs in the bag already"
Day 2 - "match is surely gone for England/A Perefect Test match for India so far./Flower has to go"
Day 3 - "Eng sliding fast towards an inevitable end"
Day 4 - "Pitch went the sleep.....and Cook dug a hole and camped on that sleepy pitch."

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Post by Good Golly I'm Olly Sun 18 Nov 2012, 1:51 pm

Captain Cook is THE man. Our most important player imo, god knows what would happen if he got a long term injury
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Post by guildfordbat Sun 18 Nov 2012, 1:55 pm

Grant Holt V2 wrote:Captain Cook is THE man. Our most important player imo, god knows what would happen if he got a long term injury

Play him centre midfield for Norwich! Very Happy

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Post by Duty281 Sun 18 Nov 2012, 2:09 pm

Looking ahead to the next Test which starts on Friday, India are going to be a bit tired. So far, their bowlers have bowled this amount:

Ashwin - 68 overs
Khan - 33 overs
Ojha - 66.2 overs
Yadav - 26 overs

India have spent a total of 202 consecutive overs in the field. By contrast, England's bowlers have done this workload:

Anderson - 27 overs
Broad - 24 overs
Bresnan - 19 overs
Swann - 51 overs
Patel - 31 overs

England have spent 160 overs in the field but they haven't been out there since Friday and will have had a decent rest as a result. If England can win the toss and bat in the second Test, India may be a bit ragged.

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Post by KP_fan Sun 18 Nov 2012, 2:11 pm

Duty281 wrote:
KP_fan wrote:
Duty281 wrote:Shocking stuff, KP_fan, I thought you said the Test was over for England on Day 1? And no comment on how loverboy did?

The assesment of a match situation can vary from honest at one end to jingoistically-stupid on the other extreme.

I have tried to be on the honest side.....we all know who is at the other extreme laughing


Wrong way round lad, look at the rubbish you've said:

Day 1 -: "1st test match gone for Eng/gone past even where they (England) can be competitive.../they (India) have enough runs in the bag already"
Day 2 - "match is surely gone for England/A Perefect Test match for India so far./Flower has to go"
Day 3 - "Eng sliding fast towards an inevitable end"
Day 4 - "Pitch went the sleep.....and Cook dug a hole and camped on that sleepy pitch."

the Day-1 assesment was honest for Day-1 and Day-4 for Day-4

and I wasn't rejoicing in the failure of a countrymen player because of a personal agenda.
That's not a nice thing at all
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Post by msp83 Sun 18 Nov 2012, 3:38 pm

At the beginning of the series I expected 4 England batsmen to make an impact on the series. Kevin Pietersen, Alastair Cook, Matt Prior and Jonathan Trott. Both Pietersen and Trott have had a horrible first test, but the other 2 have had a fine game so far and could inflict more damage on India. Cook doesn't seem to be particularly troubled by spin, and there is no hint of early swing that has often been his unduing in swinging conditions. Zaheer Khan has had lots of success against lefties, perhaps Dhoni should attack Cook with his leading bowler a lot more.
With Prior, I haven't seen any obvious weekness in his test game. But again, he's a free scoring batsman, and if his scoring could be contained, then he might make a mistake as he often did in ODIs.
Lefte arm spinners seem to have developed a mental hold over Pietersen, but the class act that he is, he could come up with a counter sooner rather than later. It is not that he can't play left arm spin, but at the beginning of his innings, he seems more than flustered against this type of bowling. Staying out in the middle and playing straight to start with could do him a world of good. And if he gets set, Pragyan Ojha and his best friend Yuvraj Singh may not be able to have similar impact on his mind.

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Post by eirebilly Sun 18 Nov 2012, 3:43 pm

msp83 wrote:At the beginning of the series I expected 4 England batsmen to make an impact on the series. Kevin Pietersen, Alastair Cook, Matt Prior and Jonathan Trott. Both Pietersen and Trott have had a horrible first test, but the other 2 have had a fine game so far and could inflict more damage on India. Cook doesn't seem to be particularly troubled by spin, and there is no hint of early swing that has often been his unduing in swinging conditions. Zaheer Khan has had lots of success against lefties, perhaps Dhoni should attack Cook with his leading bowler a lot more.
With Prior, I haven't seen any obvious weekness in his test game. But again, he's a free scoring batsman, and if his scoring could be contained, then he might make a mistake as he often did in ODIs.
Lefte arm spinners seem to have developed a mental hold over Pietersen, but the class act that he is, he could come up with a counter sooner rather than later. It is not that he can't play left arm spin, but at the beginning of his innings, he seems more than flustered against this type of bowling. Staying out in the middle and playing straight to start with could do him a world of good. And if he gets set, Pragyan Ojha and his best friend Yuvraj Singh may not be able to have similar impact on his mind.

Excellent point and i hope that MS Dhoni doesnt do just that.

As for KP and Trott, they are very good batsman and i imagine that they will also both get in the runs over the next few tests.
Cook has been sublime and all hinges on him and Prior in saving this test. A draw from here after the first three days would be extrodinary.
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Post by Duty281 Sun 18 Nov 2012, 4:23 pm

KP_fan wrote:
Duty281 wrote:
KP_fan wrote:
Duty281 wrote:Shocking stuff, KP_fan, I thought you said the Test was over for England on Day 1? And no comment on how loverboy did?

The assesment of a match situation can vary from honest at one end to jingoistically-stupid on the other extreme.

I have tried to be on the honest side.....we all know who is at the other extreme laughing


Wrong way round lad, look at the rubbish you've said:

Day 1 -: "1st test match gone for Eng/gone past even where they (England) can be competitive.../they (India) have enough runs in the bag already"
Day 2 - "match is surely gone for England/A Perefect Test match for India so far./Flower has to go"
Day 3 - "Eng sliding fast towards an inevitable end"
Day 4 - "Pitch went the sleep.....and Cook dug a hole and camped on that sleepy pitch."

the Day-1 assesment was honest for Day-1 and Day-4 for Day-4

and I wasn't rejoicing in the failure of a countrymen player because of a personal agenda.
That's not a nice thing at all

Despite the fact that the 1st Test match hadn't gone for England, England could still be (and were) competitive, and India didn't have enough runs in the bag?

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Post by gboycottnut Sun 18 Nov 2012, 5:26 pm

eirebilly wrote:
msp83 wrote:At the beginning of the series I expected 4 England batsmen to make an impact on the series. Kevin Pietersen, Alastair Cook, Matt Prior and Jonathan Trott. Both Pietersen and Trott have had a horrible first test, but the other 2 have had a fine game so far and could inflict more damage on India. Cook doesn't seem to be particularly troubled by spin, and there is no hint of early swing that has often been his unduing in swinging conditions. Zaheer Khan has had lots of success against lefties, perhaps Dhoni should attack Cook with his leading bowler a lot more.
With Prior, I haven't seen any obvious weekness in his test game. But again, he's a free scoring batsman, and if his scoring could be contained, then he might make a mistake as he often did in ODIs.
Lefte arm spinners seem to have developed a mental hold over Pietersen, but the class act that he is, he could come up with a counter sooner rather than later. It is not that he can't play left arm spin, but at the beginning of his innings, he seems more than flustered against this type of bowling. Staying out in the middle and playing straight to start with could do him a world of good. And if he gets set, Pragyan Ojha and his best friend Yuvraj Singh may not be able to have similar impact on his mind.

As good as players as Pietersen and Trott are, I feel that their batting styles aren't suited for playing on the slow turning wickets. Just look at their batting V Pakistan in the UAE at the start of this year for evidence of this. What England miss are batsmen who can play spin bowling well using their footwork to get to the pitch of the ball and smother the spin out of the ball. Since the second world war 2 England players come to my mind as being the best exponents of dealing with spin bowling. One is Mike Gatting (up until 1993) and the other one is Graham Thorpe who I believe is the best player that England have produced for playing spin bowling.

Excellent point and i hope that MS Dhoni doesnt do just that.

As for KP and Trott, they are very good batsman and i imagine that they will also both get in the runs over the next few tests.
Cook has been sublime and all hinges on him and Prior in saving this test. A draw from here after the first three days would be extrodinary.

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Post by eirebilly Sun 18 Nov 2012, 6:50 pm

gboycottnut wrote:
eirebilly wrote:
msp83 wrote:At the beginning of the series I expected 4 England batsmen to make an impact on the series. Kevin Pietersen, Alastair Cook, Matt Prior and Jonathan Trott. Both Pietersen and Trott have had a horrible first test, but the other 2 have had a fine game so far and could inflict more damage on India. Cook doesn't seem to be particularly troubled by spin, and there is no hint of early swing that has often been his unduing in swinging conditions. Zaheer Khan has had lots of success against lefties, perhaps Dhoni should attack Cook with his leading bowler a lot more.
With Prior, I haven't seen any obvious weekness in his test game. But again, he's a free scoring batsman, and if his scoring could be contained, then he might make a mistake as he often did in ODIs.
Lefte arm spinners seem to have developed a mental hold over Pietersen, but the class act that he is, he could come up with a counter sooner rather than later. It is not that he can't play left arm spin, but at the beginning of his innings, he seems more than flustered against this type of bowling. Staying out in the middle and playing straight to start with could do him a world of good. And if he gets set, Pragyan Ojha and his best friend Yuvraj Singh may not be able to have similar impact on his mind.



Excellent point and i hope that MS Dhoni doesnt do just that.

As for KP and Trott, they are very good batsman and i imagine that they will also both get in the runs over the next few tests.
Cook has been sublime and all hinges on him and Prior in saving this test. A draw from here after the first three days would be extrodinary.

As good as players as Pietersen and Trott are, I feel that their batting styles aren't suited for playing on the slow turning wickets. Just look at their batting V Pakistan in the UAE at the start of this year for evidence of this. What England miss are batsmen who can play spin bowling well using their footwork to get to the pitch of the ball and smother the spin out of the ball. Since the second world war 2 England players come to my mind as being the best exponents of dealing with spin bowling. One is Mike Gatting (up until 1993) and the other one is Graham Thorpe who I believe is the best player that England have produced for playing spin bowling.

I think that KP has been very good with spin in the past. Its only the last few years that he has seemed to have problems and thats more down to temprament i think, KP tries to hit spinners out of the attack before he has settled in. Once settled, he plays spinners very well.

Trott is also not a bad player of spin so i expect them both to make some scores on this tour.
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Post by Luke Mon 19 Nov 2012, 4:41 am

After an excellent 1st 30 minutes, Prior now out caught for 91 off Ojha, Excellent innings. Now Tim show us why your picked, and stay around for a while please.
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Post by Luke Mon 19 Nov 2012, 5:00 am

Oh S##t, now we're in trouble, Cook goes bowled by Ojha, for a magnificent 176, now on 365
/7, mind you not sure about the field placings, why do you need 3 on the boundary for a neq batsman.
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Post by Luke Mon 19 Nov 2012, 5:15 am

And now Broad goes, caught & bowled by Yadav, to a poor shot. He's really not had a good game this test, 1 of a few. Bresnan looking okay.
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Post by Luke Mon 19 Nov 2012, 5:28 am

Sorry forgot to put that Broad got 3, 388/8 at the moment after another 4 byes. Dhoni's not looked great behind the stumps, pitch not helping him though.
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Post by Luke Mon 19 Nov 2012, 5:42 am

England upto 400, Bresnan got 20, Swann 11 after not scoring quite a few balls has hit 6 & a 4. Ojha has been replaced after bowling an excellent spell this morning. Now 402 with Swann upto 13.
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Post by Luke Mon 19 Nov 2012, 5:51 am

Swann's bowled for 17 by Ashwin. Not a bad little innings by Swann, but really feel this could be over before tea. The bad 1st innings has really cost England. Although a moral victory in the 2nd innings, a loss is still a loss.
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Post by Luke Mon 19 Nov 2012, 5:58 am

India need 77, after Bresnan is now out for20 caught off Khan England got 406 all out. Really good day battling performance yesterday but because of that 1st innings left England to long to bat to do anything.
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Post by msp83 Mon 19 Nov 2012, 6:00 am

So England all out 406. 4 for Ojha, 3 for Umesh, 2 for Zaheer and 1 for Ashwin. 9 wickets in the match for Pragyan Ojha. both Indian seamers comfortably outbowling the English pacemen.
India should chase down 76 without a great deal of problems. England would do well to take out 3 or 4 wicket in the course of the chase.
A rather disappointing session from England today. Just like their fielding that ones upon a time was among their great strengths, the lower order batting that saved them many a tricky situations and pressed home many slight advantages, have fallen away over the last year or so. Captain Cook will be very disappointed, it was a stupendous knock from him, and I would rate this one over his 294.

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Post by Luke Mon 19 Nov 2012, 6:39 am

You're right about the lower order batting msp, though I thought Bresnan did okay, really not sure what's happened there. And it is a worry seeing as the top order not scoring. Cook's innings was magnificent and showed alot of his character, like his batting in the last ashes
tour. There are worrying times, the goulding's not looked dangerous other than Swann, the fielding was average at best, other than Cook the top order aren't doing enough, and other than Prior and Bresnan the lower order seems to have lost it stickability. Be interesting to see what other changes will be made for the Mumbai test other than Bell.
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Post by msp83 Mon 19 Nov 2012, 6:56 am

Cheteshwar Pujara, opening in place of Gautam Gambhir, is comfortably outscoring Virender Sehwag. India 48 without loss and looking to finish the game soon.

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Post by Duty281 Mon 19 Nov 2012, 7:00 am

Cook and Prior out to brilliant balls. England now facing a heavy defeat, but the fight that was shown has raised many positives for the Second Test:

1) England have made 400+ on a day 4 pitch without their middle order firing. India will be in trouble when that middle order gets firing! I see no reason why England can't make 500+ in the first innings if they apply themselves.

2) India have spent a while in the field, they'll be more knackered than England come Friday.

3) Ashwin bowled 40-odd overs in the second innings for no wickets, one of the spin threats have been negated by England. They know how to play him.

4) Finn will be back for the second Test.

5) England have fought with honor and spirit. They didn't roll over.

6) Dhoni is a sh!te captain.

Roll on Friday!

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Post by msp83 Mon 19 Nov 2012, 7:09 am

No 10 wicket loss for England, Virender Sehwag holds out in the deep. Brilliant catch from Kevin Pietersen, thankfully, his only moment of brilliance in the match!. Virat Kohli in at 3.

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Post by Luke Mon 19 Nov 2012, 7:13 am

Agree about Dhoni, some of his field racing's today were strange to say the least. 3 on the boundary when Broad had just come in, Zaheer not having a slip at the start, not bowling Arshwin earlier were all strange decisions. He's been helped here by winning the toss, and England not turning up in the 1st innings.
Who would you replace Finn with duty, personally I'd bring Finn in for Broad, Panesar for Patel, Morgan for Bell and move Prior up a place.
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Post by Duty281 Mon 19 Nov 2012, 7:14 am

tigerrobins wrote:Agree about Dhoni, some of his field racing's today were strange to say the least. 3 on the boundary when Broad had just come in, Zaheer not having a slip at the start, not bowling Arshwin earlier were all strange decisions. He's been helped here by winning the toss, and England not turning up in the 1st innings.
Who would you replace Finn with duty, personally I'd bring Finn in for Broad, Panesar for Patel, Morgan for Bell and move Prior up a place.

Finn in for Bresnan, Panesar in for Patel and Bairstow in for Bell. Or maybe Morgan in for Bell, I'm quite undecided on the last one.

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Post by msp83 Mon 19 Nov 2012, 7:18 am

For me Tim Bresnan has to go, either for Steven Finn, or for Monty Panesar. If Finn's fit and they want to play 2 spinners, then Broad will have to sit out and not Patel. Bairstow for Bell, he had a fine last test, and scored a hundred in the warm up match. Of course he looked a bit suspect against spin, but Morgan who was rated as a good player of spin struggled in the UAE, and Bairstow's troubles were in the T-20 format. Besides, Bairstow has shown himself to be a quick learner.

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Post by Duty281 Mon 19 Nov 2012, 7:18 am

tigerrobins wrote:Agree about Dhoni, some of his field racing's today were strange to say the least. 3 on the boundary when Broad had just come in, Zaheer not having a slip at the start, not bowling Arshwin earlier were all strange decisions. He's been helped here by winning the toss, and England not turning up in the 1st innings.
Who would you replace Finn with duty, personally I'd bring Finn in for Broad, Panesar for Patel, Morgan for Bell and move Prior up a place.

Definitely agree with that. Vic Marks summed it up best on TMS:

"Dhoni sets some incredibly defensive fields - England are effectively 11-5 and there are four men on the boundary."

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Post by LivinginItaly Mon 19 Nov 2012, 7:20 am

Well, as expected, India will win quite comfortably in the end; although at least we made them sweat for a bit. I am less bothered about the lower order batting contributions falling away slightly over the last year as I feel it was inevitable. They can dig out the top order occasionally, but if they have to do it continually they will start to fail more times than not, that is why they are lower order batsmen and not top order batsmen. I have always felt out lower order batsmen are better at building on the work done by the top order, and taking the game away from the opposition at a quick rate.

Onto the next test, which hopefully will be more competitive if we do the following:

1) Learn from the example of cook and prior. We need to bat time at the beginning, survive the first 20-30 mins against the turning ball, and then batting becomes much easier.

2) When in a player needs to score big, so concentration is vital e.g cook and the indian player.

3) At the fall of a wicket, we need a period of watchful sensible cricket, not counter-attacking. Wickets often fall in clusters in India, both for the spinners and pacemen. We need to try and calm the speed down not play at a frenzy. This is especially relevant for our middle order of kp, bell's replacement, and our number six (should be prior).

4) We should make two changes. Finn for Bresnan (or broad). Panesar for Patel. Plus of course the forced replacement for bell which should be morgan given his ability against spin.

5) Cook needs to become a lucky captain with regards to the toss Very Happy

Looking forward to friday with a bit more optimism than I had after our first innings.

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Post by msp83 Mon 19 Nov 2012, 7:21 am

Don't it will be a good idea for England to go in with 5 bowlers. They have had problems in the batting department, may not help if they go in with too much innexperience in Compton and Bairstow/Morgan and a shortened batting lineup.

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Post by msp83 Mon 19 Nov 2012, 7:24 am

That's it, India win by 9 wickets!.

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Post by msp83 Mon 19 Nov 2012, 7:26 am

Cheteshwar Pujara scored 247 runs, and England haven't managed to get him out ones. Someone was asking who he was, and well, we have the answer here.
Hope Mumbai will have a lively track that would have some bounce for the spinner besides the turn.

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Post by Duty281 Mon 19 Nov 2012, 7:31 am

msp83 wrote:Cheteshwar Pujara scored 247 runs, and England haven't managed to get him out ones. Someone was asking who he was, and well, we have the answer here.
Hope Mumbai will have a lively track that would have some bounce for the spinner besides the turn.

He'll be the man that will have England scratching their heads for the next few days.

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Post by LivinginItaly Mon 19 Nov 2012, 7:32 am

I understand what you mean about the risk of having one batsman less being a risk. But a common theme over the last year or so has been the underperformance of our batsmen with 7. Maybe the batsmen would play with a bit more application if they were conscious of the fact that the batting lineup isn't so long this time. Plus 20 wickets win matches.

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Post by msp83 Mon 19 Nov 2012, 7:48 am

Taking 20 may not always win you matches, as England's experience in the UAE suggests. The England bowlers never allowed Pakistan to get away with any huge total, but then they lost 3-0. Patel's not up to being a full time 2nd spinner, but he could be a useful 5th bowler in a balanced attack. Tim Bresnan was awful with the ball, and Stuart Broad wasn't much better. Patel was England's 3rd best bowler after Swann and Anderson. I don't think he should be blamed for the poor performances of others. And remember he was at the wrong end of 2 wrong umpiring calls.

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Post by Luke Mon 19 Nov 2012, 8:04 am

I know what you say about Bairstow, and if we'd drawn this game I would have been more tempted to play him, but now were 1-0 down I would tend to go with Morgan's experience. I would be tempted to use Pietersen more as a bowler, I just don't feel that Patel will get us wickets. Agree about Bresnan, though I think he's done okay with the bat, but if the Mumbai pitch is like this one, not sure that 3 pace bowlers would be needed, so think that it's a straight choice between Finn & Broad. Agree with Mel's point about Patel.

Also well done India, the toss was a big one to win, but they batted very well on it, bowled well (though helped by England's 1st innings), and took wickets when required. And apart from yesterday, were in control of this game from the start.
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Post by KP_fan Mon 19 Nov 2012, 9:57 am

End of Game:

--Well...England flattered to deceive.

they did well to go as far as they did.......but a little more effort and they could have pulled out a draw.....because it was just about 35 over diffrence between defeat and a draw...althouhg the margin appears a comprehensive 9 wickets.

can't complain about the pitch because it got easier with time.

--The thing that hurt England significantly in the game..... and should hurt their pride also...is that their "strength" seam bowling delievred a lot less than Indian seamers.

Zaheer and Yadav.......had 5 wickets in the 2nd inning.....and 7 for the game.
When the spinners found less help from the ptich as it got slower...the seamers got it to reverse in the air and plucked out half of English side in 2nd inning.

Zaheer was at times hitting high 130s and Yadav touched 148.....as opposed to generally sub 130 for Broad and sub 125 from bresan.

--It is easy to blame the batsmen and some of them should be viz. Patel, KP and Bell....but England lost the test match because their bowlers couldn't deliver anywhere close to what the Indian spinners and surprisingly seamers did on this pitch.

Because....I hate to remind...I told you.....Flower picks not the best availbale bowlers, but the ones who can bat best.

Broad, Bresnan, and patel......were no where close to test match level bowling in these conditions.....and so England were down to 1 and a half test match quality bowlers in Swann and Anderson....paid the price.

--Next game: they have to play Finn, Monty, Swann and if it is true Meaker can bowl 90mph...then Meaker also.
Reputaions and past records don't matter....90mph in the air even if raw and no reputation will trouble the batsmen more than a reputed 125-130kph line and length seamer of English conditions.

How they do that ?
Not my problem.......but Flower's.

and if he not able to solve this problem and put the....best ....most potent bowlers in the 11...inspite of having them in the squad......then he should lose his job....because this will drive England to a hevy series defeta when they had the resources to be more even in the results.

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Post by KP_fan Mon 19 Nov 2012, 10:00 am

msp83 wrote:Cheteshwar Pujara scored 247 runs, and England haven't managed to get him out ones. Someone was asking who he was, and well, we have the answer here.
Hope Mumbai will have a lively track that would have some bounce for the spinner besides the turn.

Mumbai will have more turn with bounce...that will make spinners more dangerous...but will also have assitance for seamers....who can bowl fast.
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Post by gboycottnut Mon 19 Nov 2012, 10:21 am

For me the selection of the England team for the second test must include a 5 man bowling attack, containing 2 spinners in Swann and Panesar. As Stuart Broad did nothing whatsoever with the ball in the first test with figures of none for 97 and only made 28 runs from 2 innings, he is the player that I would like to see being left out of the starting England XI for the next test.

So here is the England XI for the second test :-
1 Cook
2 Compton
3 Trott
4 Pietersen
5 Prior
6 Patel
7 Bresnan
8 Swann
9 Anderson
10 Panesar
11 Finn

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Post by msp83 Mon 19 Nov 2012, 10:41 am

KPF, Rahul Dravid was mention on commentary that the Mumbai Pitch might have a little bit of grass so that it would stay together for the first 3 days and that it would turn from day one otherwise. If that is the case, I would rather have a grass less pitch. But if there is grass, then England might have to keep the 3 seamer attack, particularly if Finn's fit.
Now on meaker, yes the guy has pace, but he is more like our Varun Aaron, has the pace but not much else, from what I saw in the ODIs here last year. What do you say, guildford?

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Post by KP_fan Mon 19 Nov 2012, 10:44 am

Ian Botham is begining to see and say what some here have been criticizing Flower for:

England's team selections have been highly consistent during Andy Flower's tenure as director of cricket but, on Sky TV, Sir Ian Botham openly questioned whether the England dressing room had become "too matey matey". Botham called for Stuart Broad, England's one-day captain, to be left out among four changes to his preferred side for the second Test in Mumbai.

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Post by Guest Mon 19 Nov 2012, 10:44 am

t'was a horror show ffrom england Sad

congrats to india.

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Post by KP_fan Mon 19 Nov 2012, 10:48 am

msp83 wrote:KPF, Rahul Dravid was mention on commentary that the Mumbai Pitch might have a little bit of grass so that it would stay together for the first 3 days and that it would turn from day one otherwise. If that is the case, I would rather have a grass less pitch. But if there is grass, then England might have to keep the 3 seamer attack, particularly if Finn's fit.
Now on meaker, yes the guy has pace, but he is more like our Varun Aaron, has the pace but not much else, from what I saw in the ODIs here last year. What do you say, guildford?

manjrekar confirmed the same that they leave some grass to hold the pitch together else it disintegrates too fast....like it did in 2005-06 vs. Aus...neverthless it will turn from D1.

but some minimal grass means some help for seamers who can bowl fast in the air and bend their backs.....that's why I said the minimum they need to get in the side is Finn and Meaker as seamers and Monty + Swann as spinners....anything more is upto Flower...how he gets them in is also upto Flower laughing

It's not the quantity but quality of bowling that.

3 Real test match quality bowlers for these conditions are more valuable than 5 notional bowlers Sad
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Post by Shelsey93 Mon 19 Nov 2012, 10:49 am

I think I'm going to take the gamble and go down the five bowlers route. Pitch should be good, and I think that both 1 spinner and 2 seamers would be mistakes.

Therefore, I come to:

1 Cook 2 Compton 3 Trott 4 KP 5 Bairstow 6 Prior 7 Broad 8 Swann 9 Anderson 10 Finn 11 Panesar

I'm worried about the tail, but really I think Finn (extra pace) and Panesar (a better second spin option for if the seamers are having an awful day, like Day 1) have to play, so either way you spin it you're going to have Anderson (who's far too good to drop), Finn and Monty 9, 10 and 11.

Broad has batted 7 before, and hopefully the responsibility will see him rediscover his early batting temperament - of late I think he's overhit a bit.

Bairstow replaces Patel because I don't think Patel should bat five, and with Monty in the side his bowling becomes totally useless.

When selecting the side, you end up going round in circles a bit - 'I want two spinners, but I also want three seamers, but that'll weaken the tail too much, so Samit'll have to do Monty's job'. But in this Test that hasn't worked and I think we need to cover all options a bit more in our bowling attack.

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