Saints v Ulster Friday HEC 7th December

First topic message reminder :

So the big double header kicks off at Franklin's Gardens on Friday evening. Both teams will believe a win is possible but who will prevail?

Ulster coach Mark Anscombe says Ulster will need to improve on the current form. I would agree, though the disruption of Autumn Internationals wouldn't have helped.

http://www.ercrugby.com/eng/news/19701.php#.ULyVo-RWySo

Interesting interview with Pat Lam (Former Saints captain) who actually thinks these sides could face each other in the Final next May.

http://www.ercrugby.com/eng/matchdaytv?play=media&id=13581

Ulster XV & replacements to face Northampton Saints, Heineken Cup, Friday 7th December, Franklin's Gardens (8.00pm):
(15-9): J Payne; T Bowe, D Cave, P Wallace, A Trimble; P Jackson, R Pienaar;
(1-8): T Court, R Best, J Afoa, J Muller (c), D Tuohy, I Henderson, C Henry, R Wilson;
Replacements (16-23): N Brady, C Black, R Lutton, R Diack, N Williams, P Marshall, L Marshall, C Gilroy.

Northampton XV.

(15-9): B Foden; K Pisi, G Pisi, D Waldouck, J Elliott; R Lamb, M Roberts;

(1-8): S Tonga'uiha, D Hartley (c), B Mujati, S Manoa, C Lawes, C Clark, T Wood, G van Velze;

Replacements (16-23): M Haywood, A Waller, P Doran-Jones, M Sorenson, P Dowson, L Dickson, S Myler, T May.

While I like Williams and he been excellant in ATTACK for us this season if he doesn't start he should not be on the bench it is a question of balance and Williams is only an 8 he proved in Italy he cannot play 6 effectively so while he is a good player if he don't start he's not the answer. We proved in Italy that lock is so important we need as many available as possible so I would have McComb and Diack then again it ain't my decision so we shall see how Mr Anscombe goes. Either way SUFTUM

Don Alfonso wrote:Whaddya mean?

That if Anscombe is crazy - then it must be luck that he's somehow still picking the winning team!

SecretFly wrote:World dominance must be just around the bend.

Insanity is just around the bend?

I disagree. I think you take a calculated gamble and pick Williams on the bench because as an impact sub... hard to think of better. He's capable of turning games.

Well thats very true but what happens then Notch if say Chris Henry gets injured 5 mins in you would have to play him at openside, but I can certainly see where you are coming from and I wouldn't be unhappy if it happened.

Yep, thats why its a gamble. Don't think Anscombe will go for it. Unless he picks Diack instead of a lock.

Remember Iain Henderson is basically a lock playing in the backrow. We'd need him AND Tuohy/Muller to get injured to see Diack there.

But thats all contingent on Tuohy and Muller being able to last 80 minutes. Of course, you could pick an extra forward on the bench. Paul Marshall and Craig Gilroy as our backs replacements with Payne covering centre and Pienaar covering 10. Another calculated gamble.

The fact that Williams was rested on Sunday suggests that he will be involved and likely start.

I suspect it will be Wilson and Diack on the bench and Hendo will cover second row.

Notch wrote:Yep, thats why its a gamble. Don't think Anscombe will go for it. Unless he picks Diack instead of a lock.

Remember Iain Henderson is basically a lock playing in the backrow. We'd need him AND Tuohy/Muller to get injured to see Diack there.

But thats all contingent on Tuohy and Muller being able to last 80 minutes. Of course, you could pick an extra forward on the bench. Paul Marshall and Craig Gilroy as our backs replacements with Payne covering centre and Pienaar covering 10. Another calculated gamble.

Thats a good call Notch.

I'd agree with notch, Willaims impact sub

Ok henry may get injuried 5 mins in, and it may be a case of moving Henderson/Wilson to 7 and Willaims plays 8.

But a more likely scenario is 15/20 minutes to go and we are dow by 3/5 points.

Defenders are tired, Williams comes on and you know he's the best hope for creating a break or tieing defenders in, opening spaces elsewhere. 5 yards from the line going though phases you know Saints are scared he'll get the ball.

I'd like to see Willaims on the bench even if it means taking a little gamble.

Put it this way if we have him on bench and he creates space for us the win the game Anscombe is a genius, if we lose and didn't have him, we'll ask why didn't he have Williams on the bench as he could have been the game changer?

Surely Ulster can't go into the game with no cover for openside? It is one of the most important positions on the pitch, and having either an inexperienced backrow who has never played there (Henderson) or guys who are neither suited nor experienced there (Wilson/Williams) as the only options would be foolhardy in the extreme. It would be tantamount to calling open season on Chris Henry and the game could hinge on his ability to play the full 80.
Diack and McComish are both experienced backrowers and both have shown they can play openside. They can also cover the other backrow positions - logically one of them, (probably Diack) has to be involved on Saturday.

Diack was an emergency lock as there was no one else, and he did well enough - mostly in the loose where you would expect a backrow to do well! Muller has had one game back and Tuohy limited rugby, so McComb has been carrying the second row on his own. To not have McComb at least on the bench would again be foolish up against a strong front five looking to dominate the set-piece. Henderson could be good there but he has zero experience at this level, and if the scrum is under pressure, moving a tiring backrow who has been contesting rucks with Messers Clark, Wood and Dowson doesn't sound like a great idea.

You'll 'dominate' them completely...don't worry. The smokescreen is even working on the home fans

rodders wrote:The fact that Williams was rested on Sunday suggests that he will be involved and likely start.

I suspect it will be Wilson and Diack on the bench and Hendo will cover second row.

+1 though I do like the idea of the hulk coming on with 20 to go and punching holes in a tired defense.

I quite like the idea of him nabbing a hat trick in the first 20 minutes before popping off to MacDonalds and then Wilson coming on and driving us to victory.....

Williams has to be in the squad for me. In fairness to the guy i would have said that pre-AI's he was our best player and it wasnt just his attack. His commitment in defence was really something i didnt expect to see but it was excellent. Perfect example being the ROG 'will-he, wont-he) drop goal at ravenhill. Williams must have took 5 yards out of the munster pack on two occasions in that last play which ultimately put more pressure on ROG.

I like the idea of using Diack and Williams on the bench as well in fairness.

I take it back about Anscombe's waspishness...saw him on RTE news about an hour ago... quite mellow and personable.

Sorry, Mark...you're right about them damn underperformers!

I think Aukster makes a great point if you play Williams on Bench you might have to play Diack on bench too otherwise it is glaring Ulster have no openside cover and I'm not saying they would but that may just paint a target on Henry's back for Saints. Do we really want to see Williams play 7 v Wood there's only 1 winner there.

Sure we don't have an experienced tight head cover for the bench, does that mean Afoa will have a target painted on his back. I would like to see them try and take big John out of the game.

Feel sorry for the Northampton boy who has to get close enough to him to paint on his back!

We don't necessarily need a specialist 7 on the bench when best and Afoa are brilliant at competing at the break down anyway. Herring isn't so bad there either if best has to come off.

Anyway Chris Henry is hard as nails and of the South African pack couldn't dent him, despite their best efforts, I am not so sure the saints will! (Touch wood)

Well the difference with tighthead is we have no choice! We only have one tighthead prop fit and its a massive concern

Given how injury prone Declan Fitzpatrick is we probably need to be looking at bringing in another tighthead long term. Its hard when he misses so, so many games.

BelfastDickVet wrote:Sure we don't have an experienced tight head cover for the bench, does that mean Afoa will have a target painted on his back. I would like to see them try and take big John out of the game.

Feel sorry for the Northampton boy who has to get close enough to him to paint on his back!

We don't necessarily need a specialist 7 on the bench when best and Afoa are brilliant at competing at the break down anyway. Herring isn't so bad there either if best has to come off.

Anyway Chris Henry is hard as nails and of the South African pack couldn't dent him, despite their best efforts, I am not so sure the saints will! (Touch wood)

Notch is right on this we have no choice and don't be fooled if Northampton realise the guy on the bench is not a tight head of any sorts like Williams is no openside or for that matter blindside then by all means they may indeed focus on Afoa and I would like to hope that they wouldn't go out there to injure someone but that doesn't mean it couldn't or wouldn't happen. I'm just saying we need to have that cover which is why I would support Notch in having Diack on the bench as well. Still what Anscombe will do is another thing and I think with Williams rested last week then it could well be that he starts this week.

That's what baffles me about the bent signing for Leinster. He could have been first choice tighthead for ulster in a season or twos time, yet he is happy to sit behind Ross who probably won't be going anywhere too soon.

It's very silly to think certain players are marked. Surely Stephen ferris has been marked in most of our big games and has come off well in the majority of them. Anyway they won't be targeting players as that will detract from other aspects of their game, while trying to target a player they may let their defensive duties slip etc and in a game of this magnitude I don't think they would take that risk. I am sure they will be focusing on henry best and afoa and looking for ways to counteract them not injur them. Anyway Northampton aren't really the type of team to take opposition players out of the game!

Granted they will have done their homework on our bench etc but don't be mistaken MA will most certainly have done his and found weaknesses and formulated plans of his own!

I think this targeting of players is a bit of a red herring thom. You're essentially worried that Saints will go out to deliberately injure one of our players?

Unfortunately the game is not immune to that- Saints are not immune to that as the Calum Clark incident showed- but it is extremely rare and I think it's unlikely that they'll risk a red card offence, it would be shocking if they did and even to suggest they will is a fairly big allegation to be throwing around with no basis.

No one is going to go out and deliberately injure anyone! That's crazy talk lads....

You can't cover every possible injury scenario from the bench. Diack can do a job at 7. The bigger worry is TH so lets hope we haven't used up all our luck in Italy....

BelfastDickVet wrote:That's what baffles me about the bent signing for Leinster. He could have been first choice tighthead for ulster in a season or twos time, yet he is happy to sit behind Ross who probably won't be going anywhere too soon.

Bent hasn't proven anything yet. He could be just as injury prone as Fitzpatrick for all we know, he could get homesick and leave after six months - even Tony Buckley looked decent for 10 minutes in some games...

Leinster have Ross who will be missing for some of the season because of the player management programme, so Bent is more likely to get starting time there now than with Ulster. Ross also wouldn't start for Leinster if there was a better option so Bent could be first choice soon if he's good enough. Hagan hasn't stepped up thus far. Also at Leinster Bent will be playing with Healy (and Strauss/Cronin), so making it more attractive for the Irish coach to pick that unit.

Munster and Ulster have NIE props ahead of him and decent IE props behind those, Leinster would be the fastest route to the top if he has those ambitions.

Oh don't get me wrong I am not suggesting Saints will try to injure someone I think more of them than that. I am just using a scenario to illustrate that I wouldn't be entirely comfortable with no other backrow cover on the bench unfortunately there is nothing we can do about TH. Lets hope Afoa makes it through unscathed or that we have a secret Mark ain't telling everyone lol Either way I think that's enough talk about injuries etc it's starting to make me nervous lol I think we have a great chance to go there and win this weekend so SUFTUM Team is presumably named tomorrow?

BelfastDickVet wrote:It's very silly to think certain players are marked. Surely Stephen ferris has been marked in most of our big games and has come off well in the majority of them.

Ferris is a good example of someone who is mercilessly targetted! Occasionally illegally like the Atoub/Depuy incidents, but more commonly by hard/double tackles whether he needed them or not. Most injuries are caused through perfectly legal contact in the game, the more contact the more chance of injury and it is hardly coincidental that Ferris picks up so many?

Chris Henry is a very important player for Ulster and he is getting targetted much more by teams as well - it's a sign they respect him. Like Ferris he is able to take a punch and mention it to the referee rather than retaliate. He is seriously professional and hard to get binned, but that doesn't mean teams won't focus on him and try to nullify his game in whatever way they can. If those strategies work then having a tactical option is just as important as an injury option.

The Great Aukster wrote:

BelfastDickVet wrote:It's very silly to think certain players are marked. Surely Stephen ferris has been marked in most of our big games and has come off well in the majority of them.

Ferris is a good example of someone who is mercilessly targetted! Occasionally illegally like the Atoub/Depuy incidents, but more commonly by hard/double tackles whether he needed them or not. Most injuries are caused through perfectly legal contact in the game, the more contact the more chance of injury and it is hardly coincidental that Ferris picks up so many?

Chris Henry is a very important player for Ulster and he is getting targetted much more by teams as well - it's a sign they respect him. Like Ferris he is able to take a punch and mention it to the referee rather than retaliate. He is seriously professional and hard to get binned, but that doesn't mean teams won't focus on him and try to nullify his game in whatever way they can. If those strategies work then having a tactical option is just as important as an injury option.

Exactly what I was thinking, remember Grewcock cynically stamping on Fez too

Grewcock cynically stamped on anyone.

Stephen Ferris injured his ankle landing on it awkwardly after jumping for a high ball if memory serves and wasn't the knee injury that took him out of the Lions tour sustained getting off a bus?

I think Ferris gets injured a lot because of the way he plays (and, clearly, the way he gets off buses) rather than because he attracts more attention from the opposition.

And obviously that knee only has to have someone look at it sideways to give problems.

Aye but mrs p you should have seen the state of the bus by the time Fez had finished with it...

That's what I heard WillyG!

And, I think it's quite telling that since that day not one of the teams Ulster or Ireland have faced has risked fielding a bus.

Coincidence? I don't think so!

rodders wrote:The fact that Williams was rested on Sunday suggests that he will be involved and likely start.

I suspect it will be Wilson and Diack on the bench and Hendo will cover second row.

If Roger Wilson doesn't start I will eat your hat and that piece of cardboard that's in my inside coat pocket. (you know the one?)

I don't expect that Saints will be targeting our players any more than we will theirs and to be honest its a bit disrespectful to even suggest it.

Rugby is a tough game and people will get injured... key players, particularly play makers will be given a rough ride by any opposition backrower worth their salt and head to head battles will sometime spill over.... but I think there is very seldom anything more cynical to it than that .....

...... unless the ABs or Danny Grewcock are involved that is ...... ....

Rava wrote:

rodders wrote:The fact that Williams was rested on Sunday suggests that he will be involved and likely start.

I suspect it will be Wilson and Diack on the bench and Hendo will cover second row.

If Roger Wilson doesn't start I will eat your hat and that piece of cardboard that's in my inside coat pocket. (you know the one?)

Not my where's Wally Ulster beany!

...... the Cardboard's expendible though as long as you've kept your betting slip... ......

I might need a to wash them down tho'

If Williams doesn't start, I'll pay .... in exchange for keeping my hat though ...

Cripe.
As a Saints supporter I am lonely here on a Saints-Ulster thread. I will have to start talking to myself. When that happens, things must be bad.

Good thing I have surgery in a few hours to take my mind off the important things. I wonder if I can get the hospital staff to put on the replay of the last HEC Ulster-Saints match in the OR,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,

Now now!



That's quite enough of that!

Away and replace a hip or something!



....strength of an ox and half the brains....hope they also have the eyesight of a mole....and don't use magnifying specs during surgery!....

rodders wrote:I don't expect that Saints will be targeting our players any more than we will theirs and to be honest its a bit disrespectful to even suggest it.

...... unless the ABs or Danny Grewcock are involved that is ...... ....

This!

MrsP wrote:Now now!



That's quite enough of that!

Away and replace a hip or something!



....strength of an ox and half the brains....hope they also have the eyesight of a mole....and don't use magnifying specs during surgery!....

Now now MrsP don't be so harsh on the orthopod. Didn't you see the recent news that they're actually smarter than they look?

Although personal experience tells me otherwise...

UlstermaninGlasgow wrote:

MrsP wrote:Now now!



That's quite enough of that!

Away and replace a hip or something!



....strength of an ox and half the brains....hope they also have the eyesight of a mole....and don't use magnifying specs during surgery!....

Now now MrsP don't be so harsh on the orthopod. Didn't you see the recent news that they're actually smarter than they look?

Although personal experience tells me otherwise...

I can easily believe this to be true.

Just don't ask me how smart they look.

Hahaha now now!

On another note, bloody missing the game this week. Just my luck that Warriors and Ulster are playing at the same time... May just have to sneak up to the Hospitality deck at Scotstoun and watch the game...

Will you be "Clyding" or are you still injured?

If you are back in the fur I hope you will be performing as well as this guy.


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=C4s2940mnuM&NR=1&feature=endscreen

I'm back in the fur and hopefully if they remembered to take new Clyde back from Murrayfield and if Gav decides to play Gangnam then it might make an appearance... Although they don't like Clyde out at Heino games so maybe not!

Sure doctor_grey there was that article on BBC about people getting happier as they get old, so cheer up.

Its a pity there arn't more saints fans, I'm sure there used to be more as well. or else doctor_grey used to get about more.

Kingshu wrote:Sure doctor_grey there was that article on BBC about people getting happier as they get old, so cheer up.

Its a pity there arn't more saints fans, I'm sure there used to be more as well. or else doctor_grey used to get about more.

Hence the hip injury. Happens to the best of us. I give myself 15 years max...

My knees are as bad as 1F must be cos I play a similar power style all 11 stone of me so I give myself about 5 years lol

Maybe I should explain that DrG is the operator not the victim....I mean patient in this hypothetical hip replacement to which I referred.

MrsP wrote:Maybe I should explain that DrG is the operator not the victim....I mean patient in this hypothetical hip replacement to which I referred.

And what hospital would this be MrsP, it's just if I get injured I want to know where not to go

Believe me Neil, it's nowhere near your house!