Saints v Ulster Friday HEC 7th December

First topic message reminder :

So the big double header kicks off at Franklin's Gardens on Friday evening. Both teams will believe a win is possible but who will prevail?

Ulster coach Mark Anscombe says Ulster will need to improve on the current form. I would agree, though the disruption of Autumn Internationals wouldn't have helped.

http://www.ercrugby.com/eng/news/19701.php#.ULyVo-RWySo

Interesting interview with Pat Lam (Former Saints captain) who actually thinks these sides could face each other in the Final next May.

http://www.ercrugby.com/eng/matchdaytv?play=media&id=13581

Ulster XV & replacements to face Northampton Saints, Heineken Cup, Friday 7th December, Franklin's Gardens (8.00pm):
(15-9): J Payne; T Bowe, D Cave, P Wallace, A Trimble; P Jackson, R Pienaar;
(1-8): T Court, R Best, J Afoa, J Muller (c), D Tuohy, I Henderson, C Henry, R Wilson;
Replacements (16-23): N Brady, C Black, R Lutton, R Diack, N Williams, P Marshall, L Marshall, C Gilroy.

Northampton XV.

(15-9): B Foden; K Pisi, G Pisi, D Waldouck, J Elliott; R Lamb, M Roberts;

(1-8): S Tonga'uiha, D Hartley (c), B Mujati, S Manoa, C Lawes, C Clark, T Wood, G van Velze;

Replacements (16-23): M Haywood, A Waller, P Doran-Jones, M Sorenson, P Dowson, L Dickson, S Myler, T May.

HammerofThunor wrote:

MrsP wrote:Folks say he is "cutting that nonsense out" but it's hard to see that when he has been cited in both of the last 2 games he has played against Irish opposition.

Does he just have a problem with Ulstermen?

How many times has he been cited in total recently? Those two are the only ones that stand out to me.

Perhaps Ulstermen are being really dirty and underhand where they can get away with it (e.g. in scrum/bottom of rucks) and he allowed himself to wound up.

Just saying like...

Are you trying to argue that Hartley is the victim ?

HammerofThunor wrote:

MrsP wrote:Folks say he is "cutting that nonsense out" but it's hard to see that when he has been cited in both of the last 2 games he has played against Irish opposition.

Does he just have a problem with Ulstermen?

How many times has he been cited in total recently? Those two are the only ones that stand out to me.

Perhaps Ulstermen are being really dirty and underhand where they can get away with it (e.g. in scrum/bottom of rucks) and he allowed himself to wound up.

Just saying like...

Yeah Thunor!

That's twice in one year. That's twice more this year than most players manage in their entire career.

That filty halyon Best head butting Hartley's fist and then his forearm!

One player gets cited for foul play against 2 Ulstermen and it's the Ulstermen's faults? Really? I would have expected better of you.

It's never his fault,
It's never his fault,
The bold Dylan Hartley,
It's never his fault!

I'm not really worried about what he did this time though, Rory Best and Ulster won't be worried. It was really no big deal. No damage done. What it does demonstrate is that he's not a great Captain and he has issues with his temperament. Good Captains lead by example, keep cool and direct operations. Hartley loses his cool and gets into scraps when he gets bested on the park.

If that gets spotted it's a red card. Hardly leading by example.

Looked like he was trying to hook him back

PSW.

If it wasn't so late I would love to go back and count how many times you have posted that in the past couple of weeks!

He's been cited.

I don't think Hartley will get away lightly with this one. He's up in front of the disciplinary panel second time in a year third serious allegation in his career in top flight rugby.


26-week ban for gouging the eyes of Wasps players James Haskell and Jonny O'Connor in 2007.

8-weeks earlier this year for biting Ireland flanker Stephen Ferris during the Six Nations.

This is much less serious than those two incidents.

That said, it probably will come into play. If he'd a clean record he might get off entirely. Instead he's likely to get a few weeks.

He fully deserves his coming ban, he's a complete scumbag, and maybe it'll help him to learn that this isn't the 'good old days', you can't deal your own justice to players who fishhook and kneedrop you.

Actually, I think Hartley has spent more time banned in the past year than the entire Ulster squad has in their entire careers added together!

I actually don't care if he gets banned or not. I just think it is a bit daft to try to make out he is the victim here.

To be honest I think this will effect his Lions chances, while he's a decent hooker, do you want to take someone whos a card risk?

For me Best is in pole, for Lions hooker spot, and hartley may have dropped himself out of the squad.

Stuart Barnes said some stupid stuff on friday night but maybe this will help balance it out.

From his piece in the Sunday Times.

"Man for man there did not appear to be much between these teams on paper but such was the collective control exercised by the visitors that by full time not a single Saint would have made a combined team of the evening"

MrsP wrote:

HammerofThunor wrote:

MrsP wrote:Folks say he is "cutting that nonsense out" but it's hard to see that when he has been cited in both of the last 2 games he has played against Irish opposition.

Does he just have a problem with Ulstermen?

How many times has he been cited in total recently? Those two are the only ones that stand out to me.

Perhaps Ulstermen are being really dirty and underhand where they can get away with it (e.g. in scrum/bottom of rucks) and he allowed himself to wound up.

Just saying like...

Yeah Thunor!

That's twice in one year. That's twice more this year than most players manage in their entire career.

That filty halyon Best head butting Hartley's fist and then his forearm!

One player gets cited for foul play against 2 Ulstermen and it's the Ulstermen's faults? Really? I would have expected better of you.

The really need to get a sarcasm 'quote' thing on here.

I would have hoped Hartley would have been banned for at least one game by Saints even if he hadn't been cited. It pisses me off as I don't think I've even seen it really pay off. Usually it's done by players on a team that are being physically dominated rather than the other way round. I just don't see the tactical benefit. Therefore it's just stupidity or thuggery or both. I don't like it in any of 'my' players and would like to see such behaviour stamped out. A bit of fighting is fine as long as long as it's relatively mild and both are up front. Digs to the back or to pinned players should automatically be one entry level higher than the act itself would be.

Youngs will hopefully start the 6 nations and even though we're light on experienced hookers I wouldn't be against Lancaster dropping Hartley from EPS as punishment (much light Care for urinating in the street). Neither actions are ones that should be performed by an England international (anymore).




Although with the South African influence the Ulster players are bound to be more dirty and underhandly thuggish

(Slightly more serious, in the international Ferris grabbed Hartley by the face/jaw andused it to twist him round to be removed from the ruck. Biting is not the answer but that practice, which is relatively common, also needs to be stamped out. It seems once the instantaneous tackle has been completed the head and neck are fair game)

Sorry Thunor.

I should have realised. Although, I did note that it was not your usual MO!




Not sure where you get the stuff about Ferris though. Granted some were saying that they thought that may have been what happened but there's a ways to go between that and stating it as fact, no?

And, I'm pretty sure they do take "The vulnerability of the player" into account when deciding the length of ban.

It was in the discipline report. Ferris said his hand wasn't on Hartley's face. Hartley's defense said you see in the video that Ferris' hand was across Hartley's jaw and his fingers would have been around his mouth. They accepted this from the video but didn't accept that his fingers needed biting or that Hartley 'feared for his safety'. Haven't seen the video myself.

Don't you remember all the posts about how Ferris had lied in the hearing? (rather than just being mistaken, of course).

This is just from memory so would need to be verified. However its largely irrelevant as it's common for players to rucked, mauled and tackled (after the initial hit) around the head/neck. The ones reason I mentioned the Ferris one was because people had mentioned the previous citing. Next game I watch I'll see if I can keep count.