v2 G.O.A.T The Last 16 Match 3

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The second match up of the last sixteen produced one of the most closely competed matches of the entire tournament with the voting swinging in favour of one man and then to the other throughout the day. It was Olympic champion Michael Johnson that eventually sealed his spot in the last 8 as Tiger exits the tournament having dispatched Steve Davis, Gabreselassie, and Usain Bolt.

Today’s match pits golfing legend Jack Nicklaus against Jesse Owen.

Please vote for the participant you believe has achieved the most in sport
Please leave a comment as to why you voted

Jesse Owen- Athletics- Championed by 88Chris05

If you subtract the era in which he competed in, the tensions the world over which defined that era and the fact that he carried the hopes of a whole race on his shoulders, and focus purely on Jesse Owens' achievements as a track and field athlete in purely numbers and medals, then he's automatically a sporting legend. However, when you combine all of those elements together, along with those medals, world records and achievements, then he becomes nothing short of a sporting monolith.

Along with Joe Louis, Owens helped to lead what many observers now call the ""quiet revolution."" In fact, a number of similarities can be drawn between Owens and the 'Brown Bomber'; both were born in 1914, both were born in Alabama and both played a critical role in proving that blacks could not only compete - and win - amongst the best athletes in the world, but they could also do so with dignity.
For Owens, it wasn't about black versus white - he just wanted to win, the same as any sportsman. And win he did. Even 77 years on, his haul of four gold medals from four events at the 1936 Olympics, with Hitler watching from the stands, stands as one of the key moments in sport, a remarkable mix of God-given talent and an ability to cope with huge pressure which, quite rightly, is still spoken of in reverent terms in 2013.

And yet, the signs of greatness had been there before those fantastic four days in Berlin. In compete contrast, it was tucked away in front of only a few spectators that Owens announced himself as one of the sporting phenomenons of the twentieth century, in Michigan, 1935. Forget any half of football you've ever seen, because it was on this afternoon, at the Big Ten Athletics Championships, that Owens produced the most remarkable forty-five minute period ever seen on the sporting stage.

Representing Ohio University, Owens got off to a flyer at the May 25 meet, winning the 100 yard dash in an (equal) world record of 9.4 seconds at 3.15 pm. Ten minutes later, he set a world record outright in the long jump, chalking up a distance of 26 foot 8.25 inches (that's 8 metres and 13 centimetres in our currency!). To put that particular record in to context, it was not broken for another twenty-five years, outstanding in track and field terms, and would still have been good enough to take the bronze medal in the long jump at the London 2012 Olympics. At 3.45 pm he took part in 220 yard dash, winning in a world record of 20.3 seconds, and then at 4.00 pm set a new mark of 22.6 seconds in the 220 yard low hurdles - and, what with the transition between metric and imperial records, Owens had also broken the world records for the shorter 200m sprint and 200m hurdles events in doing so.

Sports historians, then, will always argue whether it was three or five world records which Owens set in the space of forty-five minutes on that spring day of 1935 but, whichever side of the line you fall on, you can't see it as anything other than one of the great sporting moments in history.

If 1935 had been Owens' year of arrival, then 1936 was his signature one. The Berlin Olympics came at a time when American blacks had little to be excited about; lynchings of Afro-Americans were commonplace and often met with not so much as a bat of an eyelid. In many of the USA's (and, in fact, the world's) leading sports, such as track and field, boxing, baseball and golf, opportunities for black competitors were rare, and respect / acknowledgement for their talents even rarer than that. Even their music, as sports writer Harry Mullan once penned, had been ""bastardized by white commercial interests.""

Usually, the chance to compete against the best athletes the world had to offer in 1936 at the Olympic Games would have been a welcome relief for a young Afro-American such as Owens. However, the '36 Games, as much as they were a sports meet, were also an exercise in propaganda, a chance for Hitler to showcase to the watching world that his idea of a superior, Aryan race was quickly becoming an inescapable reality.

Owens wasn't just representing himself, and nor was he representing the USA. He was representing, and carrying the hopes of, a whole race. For every man or woman who'd suffered at the hands of discrimination, for every German Jew who was slowly having their rights to work and rights to property systematically stripped by the Nazi regime, an Owens victory would be a cause for celebration, a moral win which they could all lay some claim to.

It would probably be impossible to understand the pressures Owens must have been feeling on August 3, 1936, when he stepped out in to the Olympic Stadium in Berlin to compete in the heats of the 100m sprint. If he'd had any doubts that the crowd of ove 100,000 spectators, as well as most of the officials, were against him before the race, they will have quicly disappeared immediately afterwards; in that heat, Owens beat his own world record but the German timekeepers refused to ratify it, claiming the time had been achieved with a following wind, despite the stadium flags suggesting nothing of the sort.

However, this cheap piece of skullduggery proved only a temporary setback on Owens' road to ultimate glory. Later that same night, he won the final of the event - and with it his first gold medal - in a time of 10.3 seconds, and this time the officials did acknowledge that the world record had been equalled. The following day, he showed his hand in the 200m by beating the world record in the heats, and took his second gold medal of the Games in the long jump with a leap of 26 feet and 5 inches (8.05 metres) which would stand as an Olympic record until 1960.

With Luz Long being the pre-Games favourite to win that particular event, but now merely a vanquished foe, the world was by now realising that Owens, in a wild turn of events, was becoming the face of Berlin 1936 when, in fact, it had been the organizer's hope that black athletes would be seen as the big joke of them. On August 5, the rest of the field were powerless to prevent Owens winning gold in the 200m in another world record of 20.7 seconds, and he put the final seal on his greatness when helping the American 4x100m relay team win gold - yes, in another world record - on August 6.

In four days, Owens had played an ever-lasting role in bringing about a change of how black athletes were viewed, and it says much about his global impact that, despite Germany eventually going on to top the medals table at the Games, Berlin 1936 is still to this day remembered as Jesse Owens' Olympics, the Games in which Hitler's ideologies were put to rest in emphatic style. Even Owens, looking back, commented, ""For a while at least, I really was the most famous and most talked about man in the world.""

The outbreak of World War II, as it did to so many others, called time on Owens' athletics career, which begs the question - has any other athlete in history done so much to challenge people's perceptions and also set such high standards from a sporting perspective in such a small amount of time?

I can't think of many other athletes from any era or any sport who command my respect the way Jesse Owens does - and what leaves me even more impressed with him is the way he conducted himself as a man. It would have been easy and, let's be frank, pretty understandable for him to have been a surly character, a man who fought back against the discrimination and hardships he suffered with an acid tongue and a confrontational, off-putting demeanour, ala Jack Johnson or a young Muhammad Ali. But Owens conducted himself impeccably, maintaining that sports and politics shouldn't mix; before his death, he even did his best to convince President Jimmy Carter to reverse his decision to boycott the 1980 Olympics of Moscow for that very reason.

No, Owens didn't see himself as a black athlete, he was just an athlete who wanted to win. That he carried the hopes of so many with him, and also that he became an icon for a generation that followed, was merely incidental to him, it seems - but that does nothing at all to diminish how wonderfully well he coped with these pressures, and what a fantastic role model he continues to be, even more than three decades after his death. The word 'champion' fits this man perfectly.

And whenever I think of Owens, I'll always remember one quote which summed up his single-mindedness and dignity; when asked what he thought of Hitler refusing to shake his hand and congratulate him after his four gold medals, Owens simply said, ""Well, I didn't come here to shake hands anyway.

Two candidates today more than worthy of a place in the last eight.

Nicklaus is surely golf's GOAT whilst claims for Owens to be athletics' GOAT are less certain. However, it is only Owens of these two who has transcended his sport and that becomes increasingly important to me as we edge closer to determining the ultimate GOAT.

superflyweight wrote:Nicklaus has designed lots of golf courses all around the world

To my knowledge, Owens hasn't designed an athletics stadium.

Check and mate!

Jesse owens got a salute from Adolf Hitler. I see your check mate and pay in cash. (English notes only)

ShahenshahG wrote:

superflyweight wrote:Nicklaus has designed lots of golf courses all around the world

To my knowledge, Owens hasn't designed an athletics stadium.

Check and mate!

Jesse owens got a salute from Adolf Hitler. I see your check mate and pay in cash. (English notes only)

Owens would have been my GOAT if he had turned round and shot the c..t!

ShahenshahG wrote:

superflyweight wrote:Nicklaus has designed lots of golf courses all around the world

To my knowledge, Owens hasn't designed an athletics stadium.

Check and mate!

Jesse owens got a salute from Adolf Hitler. I see your check mate and pay in cash. (English notes only)

Why English notes only, Scottish notes are legal tender pal (he says in a Michael McIntyre voice).

Is it because there's a slight chance that one of the Scottish notes might contain a picture of Nicklaus, the only living non-monarch ever to appear on a UK banknote....but he didn't transcend his sport???

What a conundrum!

Voted for Woods vs Johnson because Johnson's achievements are relatively insignificant compared to those of Woods.

But Woods' achievements to date pale in to insignificance compared to those of Jack Nicklaus.

But Jesse Owens (Ohio State University by the way, not Ohio), as well as his breathtaking athletic accomplishments, has historical significance which, as guildford states above, transcends sport.

So: Jesse Owens for moi.

No offence intended to Nicklaus (who I've already referred to as worthy of reaching the last eight) or the good people of Scotland but his appearance on a largely unknown banknote hardly transcends his sport in the ways associated with Owens and others such as Ali and Pele.

guildfordbat wrote:No offence intended to Nicklaus (who I've already referred to as worthy of reaching the last eight) or the good people of Scotland but his appearance on a largely unknown banknote hardly transcends his sport in the ways associated with Owens and others such as Ali and Pele.

Unknown? It was £5! We're tight but we're not that tight?

superflyweight wrote:

guildfordbat wrote:No offence intended to Nicklaus (who I've already referred to as worthy of reaching the last eight) or the good people of Scotland but his appearance on a largely unknown banknote hardly transcends his sport in the ways associated with Owens and others such as Ali and Pele.

Unknown? It was £5! We're tight but we're not that tight?

I would put both Ali & Pele in front of Nicklaus but I would still contend that Nicklaus DID transcend his sport. What the hell?? largely unknown??? It's a £5 sterling note FFS!!

Has it been mentioned on here that both Nicklaus and Owens attended Ohio State University in Columbus?

Goodbye Columbus (remember the lovely Ali McGraw?) for one of them!

JAS

A £5 note in Scotland. Once buried in the wallet it's never to be seen again

Note - As a Yorkshireman I'm allowed to be rude about Scottish short arms and deep pockets. After all, Yorkshiremen have been described as Scots with their generosity removed

Ali McGraw certainly remembered, Kwini.
Trust you recall Brian Langford (other thread).

kwinigolfer wrote:Has it been mentioned on here that both Nicklaus and Owens attended Ohio State University in Columbus?

Goodbye Columbus (remember the lovely Ali McGraw?) for one of them!

The film that ignited my, sadly unrequited, love for ms McGraw. Damn that Steve McQueen for getting in ahead of me.

JAS, what are you talking about loads of Non-Monarchs have appeared on British bank notes.

milky, guildford, A pity Ali McGraw wasn't nominated here for her swimming prowess - we might have been entertained by a few clips of her action . . . . .

superflyweight wrote:

guildfordbat wrote:No offence intended to Nicklaus (who I've already referred to as worthy of reaching the last eight) or the good people of Scotland but his appearance on a largely unknown banknote hardly transcends his sport in the ways associated with Owens and others such as Ali and Pele.

Unknown? It was £5! We're tight but we're not that tight?

I happened upon a couple of those Nicholas notes during The open, spent them figuring id get another, going for about £40 on ebay now

i'll sell you one - yours for £39.99+p&p - pm me if interested...

s_r - i think JN is the only living person to have their mug stamped on a bank note, other than a monarch. all other non-monarchs have only been honoured in such a manner after their death.

Maybe they wanted to hasten his death

barragan wrote:s_r - i think JN is the only living person to have their mug stamped on a bank note, other than a monarch. all other non-monarchs have only been honoured in such a manner after their death.

=
I missed the "living" bit, but the whole concept of Scottish money is preposterous. £1 = £1

Though once Sweaty Salmond wrenches us away from the UK, i'm sure £1 Salmond will be worth a lot less than £1 Stirling.

Not going to happen Barragan. Opinion polls are way against it.

hope you're right s_r

anyway - not too far from the border here if it looks like a quick getaway is required.

Aye it's the "still living" bit that made it unique. Anyway there's no such thing as Scottish money, it's all Sterling, the same currency as what the BoE get printed, it's just that the Scottish banks retained their licence to print notes.

I sincerely hope we don't decide to separate either, mind you post separation it would be cheaper to come back home on holiday because if separation did happen and the Scottish pound was floated separately it would float like Shane Lowry. Don't think they'd get into the euro either.

Never a fan of Golf, but Jack is certainly a GOAT candidate in his field which had other big names. Jack wins 62-38 for me.