About v2v2 G.O.A.T The Last 16 Match 5
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Please vote for the participant you believe has achieved the most in sport
v2 G.O.A.T The Last 16 Match 5
by MtotheC Tue 19 Feb 2013, 9:47 am
First topic message reminder :
The last sixteen’s four match up pitted Bjorn Borg against Steve Redgrave for a spot in the final 8, it was the Olympic rowing champion who established an early lead and maintained it all day to progress without every really looking threatened by Borg. The Grand Slam champ exits the tournament at this stage after dispatching Jackie Joyner Kershee, Joe Montana, Gareth Edwards and the wildcard LeBron James.
Elsewhere in the competition SRR and Michael Jordan competed in a rematch of their round 2 face off in what can only be described as a grudge match! After a day of voting swinging in both directions it was eventually Jordan that took the match and progresses with 54% of the vote.
Today we move into the second half of the draw with a another blockbuster match up, pitting arguably two potential GOAT’s in their respected fields: Diego Maradonna and Don Bradman.
Please vote for the participant you believe has achieved the most in sport
Please leave a comment as to why you voted
Diego Maradonna- Football- Championed by Hero
One day, Lionel Messi will possibly prove to be the global game's greatest player, but not yet, and certainly not just because he has blown the all-time number of goals in a calendar year. Messi may be scoring goals at a rate rarely seen since Dixie Dean's heyday, but he does have the advantage of being at the sharp end of probably the greatest club side of all time. Take Messi out of Barcelona and what do you have?
We already have an answer.
In the last World Cup Messi failed to score in five matches as Argentina lost in the quarter-final to Germany whilst his Barca teammates have lifted the Euro twice and the World Cup. It is argued that the Champions League is now a higher standard than the World Cup (not that the presence of Apoel Nicosia in the quarter-finals adds much weight to that view). Whether it is or not is irrelevant when judging Messi because he is playing for the best team in the competition, a team which even without him would be formidable. A truly great player is capable of turning a moderate team into a winning one. Like Diego Maradona.
English attitudes towards Maradona are understandably coloured by the ""Hand of God"" goal but his notoriety should not obscure his greatness. Maradona turned base materials into gold on both the club and international stage. Napoli were a shambles when they somehow found the cash to buy him in 1984. Fighting relegation had become a way of life with the club surviving by a point the previous season. Maradona turned them into title contenders and in 1986/87 they won the first scudetto in the club's history. A second Serie A title, and Napoli's first European prize, the Uefa Cup, followed. Since Maradona left, the club have not won a trophy.
Maradona was similarly central to Argentina's 1986 World Cup success. Ten of their 14 goals were scored or created by him, and his five goals included superb ones against England and Belgium of the type now associated with Messi. In the final, after West Germany had come back from 2-0 down to level, he supplied the pass for Jorge Burruchaga to score the winner. All this while carrying a knee injury which had threatened to rule him out of the tournament.
Brian Glanville, in The Story of the World Cup, his history of the competition since 1930, wrote: ""It will always be remembered as Maradona's World Cup, seldom has a player, even Pele, so dominated the competition. In an era when individual talent was at a premium, defensive football more prevalent than ever, Maradona – squat, muscular, explosive, endlessly adroit – showed that a footballer of genius could still prevail.""
This context is another factor in Maradona's primacy. He formerly played in an era when the tactics were negative and the tackling brutal. Maradona's relative lack of impact at Barcelona, and later decline, had much to do with the injuries he suffered including the notorious ankle-break by Andoni Goikoetxea, the ""Butcher of Bilbao"". Only after the 1990 World Cup, when Maradona carried to the final an Argentine team which was as guilty of these sins as any, did Fifa begin the crackdown which has allowed players like Messi to flourish.
Simply put Maradona was the best player in the most global sport and therefore rightfully should challenge for the biggest prize of all, the G.O.A.T.
Don Bradman- Cricket-Championed by Fists of fury
Sir Donald Bradman
Australia
Test record: 6,996 runs in 80 innings at an average of 99.94 (29 centuries)
It is a rare phenomenon indeed where an individual can be undisputedly and universally acknowledged as the finest to have ever participated in a sport. It is rarer still for that individual to be recognised as the greatest there ever will be, despite seemingly no human being beyond Mystic Meg and the recently unmasked Eric Bristow possessing the gift of foresight.
For Pele, there is Maradona. For Nicklaus, there is Woods. For ‘The Don’, there is no rival. He stands alone.
Such are the statistics of Donald George Bradman. Plying his trade throughout the 1930’s and 40’s in the famous ‘baggy green’ of Australia, Bradman compiled a record almost twice as formidable as anyone else in the history of Test cricket. In a sport harking back to 1877, that is an astonishing feat. Bradman’s final Test average of 99.94 grows all the more impressive when you consider that the widely recognised barometer for a modern batsman attaining greatness is, in comparison, a mere 50. For a sportsman to be so far afield of his predecessors, contemporaries and successors is surely unique.
Perhaps indicative of the supremacy asserted almost every time The Don walked to the crease, former Australia captain Bill Woodfull proclaimed Bradman to be “worth three batsmen to Australia.” Where a team scoring 300 in one day is classed as operating at a fairly brisk pace, Bradman once single handedly made 309 on the first day of a Test against England at Headingley. Such dominance of bat over ball was unusually rare in the age of uncovered pitches, and remains so in today’s comparatively batsman friendly era.
Despite being the holder of records that will likely never be challenged in anger, let alone broken, statistics are but one facet of what makes a great sportsman. It often takes a truly inspirational individual to transcend the sport within which they participate. Much as Muhammad Ali transcended the sport of boxing, Don Bradman transcended cricket. Bradman emerged during a period of great economic hardship in Australia, and through the sheer force of his on-field performances it is said gave happiness and hope to a populace in the midst of depression.
You can't tell youngsters today of the attraction of the fellow. I mean, business used to stop in the town when Bradman was playing and likely to go in - all the offices closed, the shops closed; everybody went up to see him play. – England bowler Bill Bowes, 1983
Bradman would go on to exhibit a further trait of any world class sportsman: success in the face of adversity. After scoring an extraordinary 974 runs at an average of 139.14 in the 1930 Ashes tour of England, Bradman was infamously targeted by hostile and aggressive ‘Bodyline’ bowling during the 1932-33 return series in Australia – a theory designed with the sole intention of taking Bradman’s wicket, whereby the English fast bowlers would deliberately target the body of the batsman with a packed leg-side cordon of fielders lying in wait – The Don was almost rendered mortal with a series average of 56.57 (still a world class average by anyone’s standards). It was his own controversial tactic of combating bodyline by backing away and hitting the ball in an unorthodox manner in to the vacant off-side that won Bradman plaudits for attempting to find a solution to Bodyline.
It should be noted that, despite the whole of Australia being in uproar over the “vicious and unsporting” tactics employed by the English captain Douglas Jardine, and despite his own misgivings, Bradman conducted himself with dignity throughout and fought the onslaught in the way he knew best – by scoring runs. ‘Bodyline’, or ‘fast leg theory’ as it was also known, would later be outlawed.
Somewhat ironically, and perhaps unfortunately, the great Don Bradman is as much remembered for his final innings than the unsurpassed genius that had carved a path of destruction through the cricketing world wielding but a plank of willow in the preceding years. Striding to the crease at The Oval in 1948, Bradman required a mere 4 runs from his final Test innings to ensure an overall perfect Test average of 100. Whether through the emotion stirred in The Don through the adulation of the English crowd and opponents as he walked out that day (as much cheers of relief that his utter dominion over England’s bowlers was nearing an end, perhaps?), or the cricketing Gods inflicting a cruel twist of fate as if to reclaim the immortality they had lent him, Bradman was bowled for a duck by Warwickshire leg-spinner Eric Hollies, thus ending his career with that infamous average of 99.94 – a now magical figure in its own right. It will never be bettered.
Next to Mr. Winston Churchill, he was the most celebrated man in England during the summer of 1948. His appearances throughout the country were like one continuous farewell matinée. A miracle has been removed from among us. So must ancient Italy have felt when she heard of the death of Hannibal – cricket writer R.C. Robertson-Glasgow upon Bradman’s retirement, 1949
Sir Donald Bradman died in February of 2001 aged 92. It would have come as a surprise to many that he failed to get out of the 90’s. There are numerous others with a rightful claim to being the greatest sportsman that ever lived, but in Bradman there has surely never been another so superior to their peers. A genius, an icon and a gentleman; The Don satisfies all of the criteria.
Sir Donald George Bradman was, without any question, the greatest phenomenon in the history of cricket, indeed in the history of all ball games. – Wisden Almanack
The last sixteen’s four match up pitted Bjorn Borg against Steve Redgrave for a spot in the final 8, it was the Olympic rowing champion who established an early lead and maintained it all day to progress without every really looking threatened by Borg. The Grand Slam champ exits the tournament at this stage after dispatching Jackie Joyner Kershee, Joe Montana, Gareth Edwards and the wildcard LeBron James.
Elsewhere in the competition SRR and Michael Jordan competed in a rematch of their round 2 face off in what can only be described as a grudge match! After a day of voting swinging in both directions it was eventually Jordan that took the match and progresses with 54% of the vote.
Today we move into the second half of the draw with a another blockbuster match up, pitting arguably two potential GOAT’s in their respected fields: Diego Maradonna and Don Bradman.
Please vote for the participant you believe has achieved the most in sport
Please leave a comment as to why you voted
Diego Maradonna- Football- Championed by Hero
One day, Lionel Messi will possibly prove to be the global game's greatest player, but not yet, and certainly not just because he has blown the all-time number of goals in a calendar year. Messi may be scoring goals at a rate rarely seen since Dixie Dean's heyday, but he does have the advantage of being at the sharp end of probably the greatest club side of all time. Take Messi out of Barcelona and what do you have?
We already have an answer.
In the last World Cup Messi failed to score in five matches as Argentina lost in the quarter-final to Germany whilst his Barca teammates have lifted the Euro twice and the World Cup. It is argued that the Champions League is now a higher standard than the World Cup (not that the presence of Apoel Nicosia in the quarter-finals adds much weight to that view). Whether it is or not is irrelevant when judging Messi because he is playing for the best team in the competition, a team which even without him would be formidable. A truly great player is capable of turning a moderate team into a winning one. Like Diego Maradona.
English attitudes towards Maradona are understandably coloured by the ""Hand of God"" goal but his notoriety should not obscure his greatness. Maradona turned base materials into gold on both the club and international stage. Napoli were a shambles when they somehow found the cash to buy him in 1984. Fighting relegation had become a way of life with the club surviving by a point the previous season. Maradona turned them into title contenders and in 1986/87 they won the first scudetto in the club's history. A second Serie A title, and Napoli's first European prize, the Uefa Cup, followed. Since Maradona left, the club have not won a trophy.
Maradona was similarly central to Argentina's 1986 World Cup success. Ten of their 14 goals were scored or created by him, and his five goals included superb ones against England and Belgium of the type now associated with Messi. In the final, after West Germany had come back from 2-0 down to level, he supplied the pass for Jorge Burruchaga to score the winner. All this while carrying a knee injury which had threatened to rule him out of the tournament.
Brian Glanville, in The Story of the World Cup, his history of the competition since 1930, wrote: ""It will always be remembered as Maradona's World Cup, seldom has a player, even Pele, so dominated the competition. In an era when individual talent was at a premium, defensive football more prevalent than ever, Maradona – squat, muscular, explosive, endlessly adroit – showed that a footballer of genius could still prevail.""
This context is another factor in Maradona's primacy. He formerly played in an era when the tactics were negative and the tackling brutal. Maradona's relative lack of impact at Barcelona, and later decline, had much to do with the injuries he suffered including the notorious ankle-break by Andoni Goikoetxea, the ""Butcher of Bilbao"". Only after the 1990 World Cup, when Maradona carried to the final an Argentine team which was as guilty of these sins as any, did Fifa begin the crackdown which has allowed players like Messi to flourish.
Simply put Maradona was the best player in the most global sport and therefore rightfully should challenge for the biggest prize of all, the G.O.A.T.
Don Bradman- Cricket-Championed by Fists of fury
Sir Donald Bradman
Australia
Test record: 6,996 runs in 80 innings at an average of 99.94 (29 centuries)
It is a rare phenomenon indeed where an individual can be undisputedly and universally acknowledged as the finest to have ever participated in a sport. It is rarer still for that individual to be recognised as the greatest there ever will be, despite seemingly no human being beyond Mystic Meg and the recently unmasked Eric Bristow possessing the gift of foresight.
For Pele, there is Maradona. For Nicklaus, there is Woods. For ‘The Don’, there is no rival. He stands alone.
Such are the statistics of Donald George Bradman. Plying his trade throughout the 1930’s and 40’s in the famous ‘baggy green’ of Australia, Bradman compiled a record almost twice as formidable as anyone else in the history of Test cricket. In a sport harking back to 1877, that is an astonishing feat. Bradman’s final Test average of 99.94 grows all the more impressive when you consider that the widely recognised barometer for a modern batsman attaining greatness is, in comparison, a mere 50. For a sportsman to be so far afield of his predecessors, contemporaries and successors is surely unique.
Perhaps indicative of the supremacy asserted almost every time The Don walked to the crease, former Australia captain Bill Woodfull proclaimed Bradman to be “worth three batsmen to Australia.” Where a team scoring 300 in one day is classed as operating at a fairly brisk pace, Bradman once single handedly made 309 on the first day of a Test against England at Headingley. Such dominance of bat over ball was unusually rare in the age of uncovered pitches, and remains so in today’s comparatively batsman friendly era.
Despite being the holder of records that will likely never be challenged in anger, let alone broken, statistics are but one facet of what makes a great sportsman. It often takes a truly inspirational individual to transcend the sport within which they participate. Much as Muhammad Ali transcended the sport of boxing, Don Bradman transcended cricket. Bradman emerged during a period of great economic hardship in Australia, and through the sheer force of his on-field performances it is said gave happiness and hope to a populace in the midst of depression.
You can't tell youngsters today of the attraction of the fellow. I mean, business used to stop in the town when Bradman was playing and likely to go in - all the offices closed, the shops closed; everybody went up to see him play. – England bowler Bill Bowes, 1983
Bradman would go on to exhibit a further trait of any world class sportsman: success in the face of adversity. After scoring an extraordinary 974 runs at an average of 139.14 in the 1930 Ashes tour of England, Bradman was infamously targeted by hostile and aggressive ‘Bodyline’ bowling during the 1932-33 return series in Australia – a theory designed with the sole intention of taking Bradman’s wicket, whereby the English fast bowlers would deliberately target the body of the batsman with a packed leg-side cordon of fielders lying in wait – The Don was almost rendered mortal with a series average of 56.57 (still a world class average by anyone’s standards). It was his own controversial tactic of combating bodyline by backing away and hitting the ball in an unorthodox manner in to the vacant off-side that won Bradman plaudits for attempting to find a solution to Bodyline.
It should be noted that, despite the whole of Australia being in uproar over the “vicious and unsporting” tactics employed by the English captain Douglas Jardine, and despite his own misgivings, Bradman conducted himself with dignity throughout and fought the onslaught in the way he knew best – by scoring runs. ‘Bodyline’, or ‘fast leg theory’ as it was also known, would later be outlawed.
Somewhat ironically, and perhaps unfortunately, the great Don Bradman is as much remembered for his final innings than the unsurpassed genius that had carved a path of destruction through the cricketing world wielding but a plank of willow in the preceding years. Striding to the crease at The Oval in 1948, Bradman required a mere 4 runs from his final Test innings to ensure an overall perfect Test average of 100. Whether through the emotion stirred in The Don through the adulation of the English crowd and opponents as he walked out that day (as much cheers of relief that his utter dominion over England’s bowlers was nearing an end, perhaps?), or the cricketing Gods inflicting a cruel twist of fate as if to reclaim the immortality they had lent him, Bradman was bowled for a duck by Warwickshire leg-spinner Eric Hollies, thus ending his career with that infamous average of 99.94 – a now magical figure in its own right. It will never be bettered.
Next to Mr. Winston Churchill, he was the most celebrated man in England during the summer of 1948. His appearances throughout the country were like one continuous farewell matinée. A miracle has been removed from among us. So must ancient Italy have felt when she heard of the death of Hannibal – cricket writer R.C. Robertson-Glasgow upon Bradman’s retirement, 1949
Sir Donald Bradman died in February of 2001 aged 92. It would have come as a surprise to many that he failed to get out of the 90’s. There are numerous others with a rightful claim to being the greatest sportsman that ever lived, but in Bradman there has surely never been another so superior to their peers. A genius, an icon and a gentleman; The Don satisfies all of the criteria.
Sir Donald George Bradman was, without any question, the greatest phenomenon in the history of cricket, indeed in the history of all ball games. – Wisden Almanack
Last edited by MtotheC on Tue 19 Feb 2013, 10:29 am; edited 1 time in total
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Re: v2 G.O.A.T The Last 16 Match 5
by Mad for Chelsea Tue 19 Feb 2013, 2:47 pm
where's the cut-off though? If we take (in particular) athleticism as being pretty much ever-increasing, does that mean we should only consider current athletes? not much of a GOAT debate in that case...
Bradman wasn't just the best: he was the best by a very very long way, that's why he for me is a shoe-in this time around.
Bradman wasn't just the best: he was the best by a very very long way, that's why he for me is a shoe-in this time around.
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Re: v2 G.O.A.T The Last 16 Match 5
by super_realist Tue 19 Feb 2013, 2:47 pm
superflyweight wrote:And lets face it post WW1 England had plenty of problems in the gene pool area.
The effects of which can still be evidenced on this forum.
What because someone has the sense to see that a cucumber sandwich eating bat leaner who wore dress trousers a tank top and shoes should be considered the GOAT of all Sport?
He might be the Cricket GOAT, but it's barely much more than a pastime like Bowls or Darts, especially in 1930's.
Last edited by super_realist on Tue 19 Feb 2013, 2:49 pm; edited 1 time in total
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Re: v2 G.O.A.T The Last 16 Match 5
by Mad for Chelsea Tue 19 Feb 2013, 2:49 pm
I think we get your point SR. I don't think repeating it until everyone feels like screaming at you to stop will make it any more valid.
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Re: v2 G.O.A.T The Last 16 Match 5
by super_realist Tue 19 Feb 2013, 2:49 pm
Mad for Chelsea wrote:I think we get your point SR. I don't think repeating it until everyone feels like screaming at you to stop will make it any more valid.
No less valid than people constantly harping on about how he was so much better than anyone else in a time when it was barely more than a colonial exhibition.
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Re: v2 G.O.A.T The Last 16 Match 5
by super_realist Tue 19 Feb 2013, 2:52 pm
Isn't that the point of a forum, to debate? Otherwise disable comments and only allow people to vote? 
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Re: v2 G.O.A.T The Last 16 Match 5
by superflyweight Tue 19 Feb 2013, 2:54 pm
super_realist wrote:superflyweight wrote:And lets face it post WW1 England had plenty of problems in the gene pool area.
The effects of which can still be evidenced on this forum.
What because someone has the sense to see that a cucumber sandwich eating bat leaner who wore dress trousers a tank top and shoes should be considered the GOAT of all Sport?
He might be the Cricket GOAT, but it's barely much more than a pastime like Bowls or Darts, especially in 1930's.
Feeling touchy are we? I've neither agreed or disagreed with you.
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Re: v2 G.O.A.T The Last 16 Match 5
by VTR Tue 19 Feb 2013, 2:55 pm
super_realist wrote:Was anybody else?
NObody has really explained the standard of cricket back then. Was Bradman just the best of a very very average lot? After all, when you look at the standard of football, golf, tennis, snooker etc from back in those days it's laughably bad. Can't really see how Cricket could be that good back then.
It's a completely different game and I think totally relevant when talking about a GOAT of a sport, because how can you be a GOAT if all you've done is be better than a bunch of fat old men who play cricket as a hobby.
Re the opposition: yep they were all fat old men, half the population had died in the trenches and/or of flu as well so not only were they fat and old there were only 2 of them. And then sometimes they were making cucumber sandwiches so the Don literally had to bat on his own using the garage wall as a bowler with his pet terrier Rex doing the fielding.
Happy now?!
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Re: v2 G.O.A.T The Last 16 Match 5
by JAS Tue 19 Feb 2013, 2:57 pm
Hmmm, a gentleman with amazing statistics from a bygone era in a sport I don't follow or a sublimely skilled, drug addled cheat and thoroughly odious human being...difficult one!!
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Re: v2 G.O.A.T The Last 16 Match 5
by Diggers Tue 19 Feb 2013, 3:00 pm
VTR wrote:super_realist wrote:Was anybody else?
NObody has really explained the standard of cricket back then. Was Bradman just the best of a very very average lot? After all, when you look at the standard of football, golf, tennis, snooker etc from back in those days it's laughably bad. Can't really see how Cricket could be that good back then.
It's a completely different game and I think totally relevant when talking about a GOAT of a sport, because how can you be a GOAT if all you've done is be better than a bunch of fat old men who play cricket as a hobby.
Re the opposition: yep they were all fat old men, half the population had died in the trenches and/or of flu as well so not only were they fat and old there were only 2 of them. And then sometimes they were making cucumber sandwiches so the Don literally had to bat on his own using the garage wall as a bowler with his pet terrier Rex doing the fielding.
Happy now?!
Thats clearly taking it to an extreme but at the end of the day these are factors that have to be at least taken under consideration when you are assessing Bradman.
Or we could all be just lovely and warm and fuzzy and say oh he was just marvelous and that horrible Argie wasnt even better than Pele and that would be the end of it.
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Re: v2 G.O.A.T The Last 16 Match 5
by super_realist Tue 19 Feb 2013, 3:01 pm
JAS wrote:Hmmm, a gentleman with amazing statistics from a bygone era in a sport I don't follow or a sublimely skilled, drug addled cheat and thoroughly odious human being...difficult one!!
Bradman might have had EPO in his Cucumber Sandwich and Cream Tea.
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Re: v2 G.O.A.T The Last 16 Match 5
by Hoggy_Bear Tue 19 Feb 2013, 3:06 pm
To be fair to super_realist the bowling attacks faced by Bradman were not consistently great (although they did have some very good bowler among them), while test pitches in the 1930s especially were notoriously batsman friendly.
However, non of that can explain the extent of Bradman's domination of his own period, or the fact that no-one in the rest of cricket history has got anywhere near his average over the course of their whole career.
However, non of that can explain the extent of Bradman's domination of his own period, or the fact that no-one in the rest of cricket history has got anywhere near his average over the course of their whole career.
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Re: v2 G.O.A.T The Last 16 Match 5
by barragan Tue 19 Feb 2013, 3:08 pm
jas - maybe we should have a 'neither of the above' option for situations like these. 
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Re: v2 G.O.A.T The Last 16 Match 5
by Diggers Tue 19 Feb 2013, 3:09 pm
I dont think we can discount the possibility that Basher Bradman had a magic cricket bat that jolly well helped him biff the ball all over the park.
I think that kind of thing still happened back in the 1930's.
I think that kind of thing still happened back in the 1930's.
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Re: v2 G.O.A.T The Last 16 Match 5
by Spaghetti-Hans Tue 19 Feb 2013, 3:16 pm
88Chris05 wrote:Bradman by a mile here. So clearly and so easily the greatest within his own field that comparisons with anyone else from it are pointless.
Take Tendulkar and Lara, for instance, often cited as the two finest test batsmen of the past quarter of a century. Add their respective test averages (54.32 and 52.89 respectively, wonderful by anyone's standards over a career) together, and they still only surpass the Don's average by a very small handful of runs. I mean, come on - Bradman averaged 56 in the 'Bodyline' series but, so incredible was he, that was considered something of a 'disappointing' return!
You have to remember, also, that Bradman campaigned in the times of uncovered pitches, smaller bats, bigger boundaries and more unfavourable bowling regulations. Cricket's primarily a batsman's game these days, but that wasn't the case when Bradman was murdering all bowling attacks he faced on the international stage between 1928 and 1948.
Maradona a giant in footballing history, of course, but nowehre near as supremely consistent as Bradman and certainly doesn't hold dominance similar to the Don's. Maradona made Mexico '86 in to a one-man show of sorts, I guess, but Bradman did the same within his own field countless times.
Our organisation cannot condone anyone voting for Don 'Broken by Bodyline' Bradman over Diego Maradona.
Does anyone seriously believe that Bradman was better than Sachin Tendulkar? There is absolutely no evidence for this ludicrous claim.
The Little Master posted 100 100s in international cricket. Bradman notched a mere 29. Tendulkar dominated both forms of the game, whereas Bradman never bothered to put on the 'baggy green' in limited overs cricket - because his game was offensively limited. Bradman's greatest achievement was scoring 300 in day against a pre-WWII bowling attack. Tendulkar plundered 200* in a couple of hours against the premiere bowling attack in the world, containing the best fast bowler ever - Dale Steyn.
Tendulkar won the scoring title at the 2003 World Cup and lead his team to World Cup glory in 2011. Bradman's Australia never won the World Cup. The comparison is even more shocking when you consider that Tendulkar carried the hopes of a nation and did so admirably, with unprecedented success. Whereas Bradman wilted under the pressure of Anglo-Australian rivalry. When Jardine cranked up the heat and physicality during the Bodyline series, Bradman's only option was to go crying to the Australian Prime Minister, Joesph Lyons, who promptly dismissed Bradman and Team Australia's complaints and ordered them to continue the series. Australia were demolished and Bradman averaged a paltry 36 - the equivalent of averaging 12-14 in modern terms - hence Wisden labelled him Don 'Broken by Bodyline' Bradman in their almanack.
The fact of the matter is, Tendulkar would never be cleaned bowled for zero by an amateur bowler in the most important innings of his career. No, The Little Master scored a 'money' 85 in the biggest game of all-time, the 2011 World Cup SF vs Pakistan - watched by 400 million people worldwide. Bradman scored zero when he only needed 4, in a dead rubber game watched by a crowd of 36 men and a dog at The Oval.
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Re: v2 G.O.A.T The Last 16 Match 5
by Stella Tue 19 Feb 2013, 3:18 pm
Bradman averaged 56 in that series. That's higher than Tendulkar's over all average.
Plus, you could argue that Viv, Lara, Pollock and Sobers were better middle order batsmen.
Plus, you could argue that Viv, Lara, Pollock and Sobers were better middle order batsmen.
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Re: v2 G.O.A.T The Last 16 Match 5
by Hibbz Tue 19 Feb 2013, 3:19 pm
I couldn't care less whether Bradman averaged 200, he played a sport involving little athleticism in an age requiring none.
Maradona played when defenders where not only allowed to tackle you fairly they were also allowed to repeatedly "let you know they were there".
I'm voting for the Maradona but fear even with the help of the TME boys it won't be enough.
Maradona played when defenders where not only allowed to tackle you fairly they were also allowed to repeatedly "let you know they were there".
I'm voting for the Maradona but fear even with the help of the TME boys it won't be enough.
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Re: v2 G.O.A.T The Last 16 Match 5
by Diggers Tue 19 Feb 2013, 3:21 pm
Ive voted for Madonna as well, mainly because she looked like a dirty, dirty girl.
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Re: v2 G.O.A.T The Last 16 Match 5
by VTR Tue 19 Feb 2013, 3:22 pm
Right, I'm watching this. Spazzy Hands has appeared and its 33-21 to the Don. If the Non-Event Lads turn this into a win for Diego "broken by cocaine" Maradona then I am leaving this forum for good!
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Re: v2 G.O.A.T The Last 16 Match 5
by Hibbz Tue 19 Feb 2013, 3:24 pm
Diggers wrote:Ive voted for Madonna as well, mainly because she looked like a dirty, dirty girl.
Unfortunately now she just looks like a dirty old lady and still wants you to see it all even if you don't still wish to.
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Re: v2 G.O.A.T The Last 16 Match 5
by Diggers Tue 19 Feb 2013, 3:25 pm
Hibbz wrote:Diggers wrote:Ive voted for Madonna as well, mainly because she looked like a dirty, dirty girl.
Unfortunately now she just looks like a dirty old lady and still wants you to see it all even if you don't still wish to.
I know, I still would though.
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Re: v2 G.O.A.T The Last 16 Match 5
by superflyweight Tue 19 Feb 2013, 3:27 pm
That's sealed it for me, Hans (the bell-end) has spoken against Bradman so I will vote for Don.
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Re: v2 G.O.A.T The Last 16 Match 5
by super_realist Tue 19 Feb 2013, 3:28 pm
It would have to be someone who combines sublime skill, with domination of their sport and outstanding physical fitness and in a sport where there is competition from all over the world.
There are very few GOATS, hence the name, but I simply can't have an Edwardian, flannel wearing, cucumber sandwich eating bat leaner in a game which isn't even recognisable as what it is today.
It's like the Harry Enfield football sketch where the ball is glued to the foot.
There are very few GOATS, hence the name, but I simply can't have an Edwardian, flannel wearing, cucumber sandwich eating bat leaner in a game which isn't even recognisable as what it is today.
It's like the Harry Enfield football sketch where the ball is glued to the foot.
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Re: v2 G.O.A.T The Last 16 Match 5
by Hero Tue 19 Feb 2013, 3:31 pm
Oh ruddy hell the guy I championed has both SR and Hans onboard. Well that's blown my chance out of the water!
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Re: v2 G.O.A.T The Last 16 Match 5
by dummy_half Tue 19 Feb 2013, 3:32 pm
Diggers wrote:Hibbz wrote:Diggers wrote:Ive voted for Madonna as well, mainly because she looked like a dirty, dirty girl.
Unfortunately now she just looks like a dirty old lady and still wants you to see it all even if you don't still wish to.
I know, I still would though.
So wrong
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Re: v2 G.O.A.T The Last 16 Match 5
by VTR Tue 19 Feb 2013, 3:33 pm
super_realist wrote:It would have to be someone who combines sublime skill, with domination of their sport and outstanding physical fitness and in a sport where there is competition from all over the world.
There are very few GOATS, hence the name, but I simply can't have an Edwardian, flannel wearing, cucumber sandwich eating bat leaner in a game which isn't even recognisable as what it is today.
It's like the Harry Enfield football sketch where the ball is glued to the foot.
You remind me of the bloke over the road who is a UKIP member. I always think: thank **** he only gets one vote!
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Re: v2 G.O.A.T The Last 16 Match 5
by dummy_half Tue 19 Feb 2013, 3:33 pm
Hero wrote:Oh ruddy hell the guy I championed has both SR and Hans onboard. Well that's blown my chance out of the water!
Looks like you know when you're beaten...
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Re: v2 G.O.A.T The Last 16 Match 5
by Mad for Chelsea Tue 19 Feb 2013, 3:34 pm
you have to admire TME's arguments though, so much ignorance in such a short post
What's that saying again: "it's better to say nothing and be thought a fool..."
What's that saying again: "it's better to say nothing and be thought a fool..."
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Re: v2 G.O.A.T The Last 16 Match 5
by Hibbz Tue 19 Feb 2013, 3:34 pm
super_realist wrote:It would have to be someone who combines sublime skill, with domination of their sport and outstanding physical fitness and in a sport where there is competition from all over the world.
There are very few GOATS, hence the name, but I simply can't have an Edwardian, flannel wearing, cucumber sandwich eating bat leaner in a game which isn't even recognisable as what it is today.
It's like the Harry Enfield football sketch where the ball is glued to the foot.
Or the Fantasy Football feature entitled old football was rubbish.
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Re: v2 G.O.A.T The Last 16 Match 5
by Hibbz Tue 19 Feb 2013, 3:36 pm
Diggers wrote:Hibbz wrote:Diggers wrote:Ive voted for Madonna as well, mainly because she looked like a dirty, dirty girl.
Unfortunately now she just looks like a dirty old lady and still wants you to see it all even if you don't still wish to.
I know, I still would though.
Oh for sure, it's still Madonna after all.
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Re: v2 G.O.A.T The Last 16 Match 5
by Duty281 Tue 19 Feb 2013, 3:36 pm
Pathetic that some people are sad enough to attempt to derail voting by wumming. Glad to see it's not working though. Bradman up by 13.
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Re: v2 G.O.A.T The Last 16 Match 5
by VTR Tue 19 Feb 2013, 3:47 pm
Mad for Chelsea wrote:you have to admire TME's arguments though, so much ignorance in such a short post
What's that saying again: "it's better to say nothing and be thought a fool..."
I think it was an attempt at tongue in cheek humour. Sadly like everything else he has ever written its fallen flat on its face.
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Re: v2 G.O.A.T The Last 16 Match 5
by Fists of Fury Tue 19 Feb 2013, 4:32 pm
superflyweight wrote:And lets face it post WW1 England had plenty of problems in the gene pool area.
The effects of which can still be evidenced on this forum.
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Re: v2 G.O.A.T The Last 16 Match 5
by Fists of Fury Tue 19 Feb 2013, 4:37 pm
Spaghetti-Hans wrote:88Chris05 wrote:Bradman by a mile here. So clearly and so easily the greatest within his own field that comparisons with anyone else from it are pointless.
Take Tendulkar and Lara, for instance, often cited as the two finest test batsmen of the past quarter of a century. Add their respective test averages (54.32 and 52.89 respectively, wonderful by anyone's standards over a career) together, and they still only surpass the Don's average by a very small handful of runs. I mean, come on - Bradman averaged 56 in the 'Bodyline' series but, so incredible was he, that was considered something of a 'disappointing' return!
You have to remember, also, that Bradman campaigned in the times of uncovered pitches, smaller bats, bigger boundaries and more unfavourable bowling regulations. Cricket's primarily a batsman's game these days, but that wasn't the case when Bradman was murdering all bowling attacks he faced on the international stage between 1928 and 1948.
Maradona a giant in footballing history, of course, but nowehre near as supremely consistent as Bradman and certainly doesn't hold dominance similar to the Don's. Maradona made Mexico '86 in to a one-man show of sorts, I guess, but Bradman did the same within his own field countless times.
Our organisation cannot condone anyone voting for Don 'Broken by Bodyline' Bradman over Diego Maradona.
Does anyone seriously believe that Bradman was better than Sachin Tendulkar? There is absolutely no evidence for this ludicrous claim.
The Little Master posted 100 100s in international cricket. Bradman notched a mere 29. Tendulkar dominated both forms of the game, whereas Bradman never bothered to put on the 'baggy green' in limited overs cricket - because his game was offensively limited. Bradman's greatest achievement was scoring 300 in day against a pre-WWII bowling attack. Tendulkar plundered 200* in a couple of hours against the premiere bowling attack in the world, containing the best fast bowler ever - Dale Steyn.
Tendulkar won the scoring title at the 2003 World Cup and lead his team to World Cup glory in 2011. Bradman's Australia never won the World Cup. The comparison is even more shocking when you consider that Tendulkar carried the hopes of a nation and did so admirably, with unprecedented success. Whereas Bradman wilted under the pressure of Anglo-Australian rivalry. When Jardine cranked up the heat and physicality during the Bodyline series, Bradman's only option was to go crying to the Australian Prime Minister, Joesph Lyons, who promptly dismissed Bradman and Team Australia's complaints and ordered them to continue the series. Australia were demolished and Bradman averaged a paltry 36 - the equivalent of averaging 12-14 in modern terms - hence Wisden labelled him Don 'Broken by Bodyline' Bradman in their almanack.
The fact of the matter is, Tendulkar would never be cleaned bowled for zero by an amateur bowler in the most important innings of his career. No, The Little Master scored a 'money' 85 in the biggest game of all-time, the 2011 World Cup SF vs Pakistan - watched by 400 million people worldwide. Bradman scored zero when he only needed 4, in a dead rubber game watched by a crowd of 36 men and a dog at The Oval.
What an unbearable, steaming pile of horse dung.
I'd suggest you do a little more research next time. What an uneducated heap of guff.
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Re: v2 G.O.A.T The Last 16 Match 5
by 88Chris05 Tue 19 Feb 2013, 4:39 pm
No need to be so scathing of my post, Fists!
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Re: v2 G.O.A.T The Last 16 Match 5
by VTR Tue 19 Feb 2013, 4:50 pm
Fists of Fury wrote:What an unbearable, steaming pile of horse dung.
I'd suggest you do a little more research next time. What an uneducated heap of guff.
I read that post in the Findus factory and they were adament it was cow dung
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Re: v2 G.O.A.T The Last 16 Match 5
by aucklandlaurie Tue 19 Feb 2013, 6:51 pm
Spaghetti-Hans wrote:88Chris05 wrote:Bradman by a mile here. So clearly and so easily the greatest within his own field that comparisons with anyone else from it are pointless.
Take Tendulkar and Lara, for instance, often cited as the two finest test batsmen of the past quarter of a century. Add their respective test averages (54.32 and 52.89 respectively, wonderful by anyone's standards over a career) together, and they still only surpass the Don's average by a very small handful of runs. I mean, come on - Bradman averaged 56 in the 'Bodyline' series but, so incredible was he, that was considered something of a 'disappointing' return!
You have to remember, also, that Bradman campaigned in the times of uncovered pitches, smaller bats, bigger boundaries and more unfavourable bowling regulations. Cricket's primarily a batsman's game these days, but that wasn't the case when Bradman was murdering all bowling attacks he faced on the international stage between 1928 and 1948.
Maradona a giant in footballing history, of course, but nowehre near as supremely consistent as Bradman and certainly doesn't hold dominance similar to the Don's. Maradona made Mexico '86 in to a one-man show of sorts, I guess, but Bradman did the same within his own field countless times.
Our organisation cannot condone anyone voting for Don 'Broken by Bodyline' Bradman over Diego Maradona.
Does anyone seriously believe that Bradman was better than Sachin Tendulkar? There is absolutely no evidence for this ludicrous claim.
The Little Master posted 100 100s in international cricket. Bradman notched a mere 29. Tendulkar dominated both forms of the game, whereas Bradman never bothered to put on the 'baggy green' in limited overs cricket - because his game was offensively limited. Bradman's greatest achievement was scoring 300 in day against a pre-WWII bowling attack. Tendulkar plundered 200* in a couple of hours against the premiere bowling attack in the world, containing the best fast bowler ever - Dale Steyn.
Tendulkar won the scoring title at the 2003 World Cup and lead his team to World Cup glory in 2011. Bradman's Australia never won the World Cup. The comparison is even more shocking when you consider that Tendulkar carried the hopes of a nation and did so admirably, with unprecedented success. Whereas Bradman wilted under the pressure of Anglo-Australian rivalry. When Jardine cranked up the heat and physicality during the Bodyline series, Bradman's only option was to go crying to the Australian Prime Minister, Joesph Lyons, who promptly dismissed Bradman and Team Australia's complaints and ordered them to continue the series. Australia were demolished and Bradman averaged a paltry 36 - the equivalent of averaging 12-14 in modern terms - hence Wisden labelled him Don 'Broken by Bodyline' Bradman in their almanack.
The fact of the matter is, Tendulkar would never be cleaned bowled for zero by an amateur bowler in the most important innings of his career. No, The Little Master scored a 'money' 85 in the biggest game of all-time, the 2011 World Cup SF vs Pakistan - watched by 400 million people worldwide. Bradman scored zero when he only needed 4, in a dead rubber game watched by a crowd of 36 men and a dog at The Oval.
Only a fool applauds his own posts.
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Re: v2 G.O.A.T The Last 16 Match 5
by Imperial Ghosty Tue 19 Feb 2013, 6:53 pm
Can't vote for Bradman on the basis I don't consider him among the 5 greatest batsmen of all time let alone the greatest cricketer of all time. There are lies, damn lies and then there are statistics.
Maradona for me.
Maradona for me.
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Re: v2 G.O.A.T The Last 16 Match 5
by JDizzle Tue 19 Feb 2013, 7:00 pm
Spaghetti Hans has just typed out the worst thing I've ever seen on this forum. Some people have different opinions, which is fine, but what Spunketti Hans has wrote is just wrong.
Bradman, by a decent distance. Not a slight on Diego but the Don is just better.
Bradman, by a decent distance. Not a slight on Diego but the Don is just better.
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Re: v2 G.O.A.T The Last 16 Match 5
by spencerclarke Tue 19 Feb 2013, 7:48 pm
I must admit ive skim read a little so apologises if someone has mentioned this but bradman achieved his marvellous figures without playing against the lesser teams like bangladesh and Zimbabwe. No disrespect to them but they have a long way to go to compete evenly with the top sides.
So in essence when he was making these records they were against top sides and everyone had to be earned that little harder
So in essence when he was making these records they were against top sides and everyone had to be earned that little harder
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Re: v2 G.O.A.T The Last 16 Match 5
by spencerclarke Tue 19 Feb 2013, 7:49 pm
That said I went for maradona. If a man can do the things he did when on recreational drugs rather than performance enhancing ones then jeez!!
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Re: v2 G.O.A.T The Last 16 Match 5
by mystiroakey Tue 19 Feb 2013, 7:52 pm
gotta admit- cocaine could enhance you
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Re: v2 G.O.A.T The Last 16 Match 5
by spencerclarke Tue 19 Feb 2013, 7:58 pm
Really? Didn know that. Everyone ive ever seen on it has been a useless nob!
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Re: v2 G.O.A.T The Last 16 Match 5
by mystiroakey Tue 19 Feb 2013, 8:10 pm
yeah but if you took abit before the game it may give you a bit of an edge..
well put it this way - if you were hung over from the night before(as all the brit players were in maradonas time)and you took abit of the white stuff- you would be in a significantly better place..
by the way i dont condone it- havent touched it for 14 years and never will again. And when my mates are on it i want to kill them!!
well put it this way - if you were hung over from the night before(as all the brit players were in maradonas time)and you took abit of the white stuff- you would be in a significantly better place..
by the way i dont condone it- havent touched it for 14 years and never will again. And when my mates are on it i want to kill them!!
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Re: v2 G.O.A.T The Last 16 Match 5
by Henman Bill Tue 19 Feb 2013, 9:56 pm
dummy_half wrote:Again, the draw moves from 2 not really worthy to two outstanding candidates.
For me though, it has to be Bradman - clearly and by a fantastic distance the greatest batsman of all time. Remember that the next best Test batsmen average just under 61, and that there is a cluster of all time greats that averaged in the upper 50s - top 10 table below (20 Test minimum):
Rank Batsman Tests Innings N.O. Runs Highest Ave
1 D. G. Bradman 52 80 10 6996 334 99.94
2 R. G. Pollock 23 41 4 2256 274 60.97
3 G. A. Headley 22 40 4 2190 270* 60.83
4 H. Sutcliffe 54 84 9 4555 194 60.73
5 E. Paynter 20 31 5 1540 243 59.23
6 K. F. Barrington 82 131 15 6806 256 58.67
7 E.D. Weekes 48 81 5 4455 207 58.61
8 W. R. Hammond 85 140 16 7249 336* 58.45
9 G. S. Sobers 93 160 21 8032 365* 57.78
10 J.B.Hobbs 61 102 7 5410 211 56.95
The Wikipedia page on 'batting averages' also shows a graphic of test batting averages, which probably gives an even better picture of how much better than the rest Bradman was.
As for Maradona, while he's been waved through up to this point on account of his fantastic skill as a footballer, there certainly are some weaknesses in his record and legacy. Yes he was instrumental in Argentina winning the 86 World Cup, although that was much less a one man team than is now portrayed. 1982 he was still younf g and could be kept out of the game, while in 1990 Argentina were lucky to make the final after losing their opening group game and progressing on penalties twice in the knock-out stages - Maradona was not the player of 4 years previously (carrying a minor ankle injury). As for 1994, well being sent home for a doping offence (positive test for ephedrine) is not the stuff of legend.
As for his club career - successful as a young player in Argentina, but a couple of years in Barcelona with some success on the pitch (when not injured) but disputes with the club off the field yielded little. Then on to Napoli and taking a middling Serie A side to two league titles in 4 seasons before ultimately being fined and moved on because of his cocaine addiction.
Perhaps best to gloss over Maradona the coach. Suffice to say that he proved the adage that gret players do not necessarily make great coaches.
My conclusion for Maradona is that he was a flawed genius, who was extremely lucky that his addictions and character defects didn't interfere more with his playing ability and legacy. Could very easily have been another George Best, in having a career that was over by his mid 20s
Great post. The Bradman batting average stat is why he is a strong contender for this whole competition and should certainly be dismissing the player who was sent off for violent conduct in the first world cup he played in, cheated to score a goal in the second, cheated to block a goal in the third and was on drugs in the 4th.
I do take the point about the fact that Bradman played most matches against one team and it wasn't truly a global sport, and isn't even now. And this counts against him but that stat about the batting averages may just be strong enough to make him the sport GOAT anyway.
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Re: v2 G.O.A.T The Last 16 Match 5
by Taylorman Tue 19 Feb 2013, 9:57 pm
No contest for me. The greatest of one sport versus a top 10 at best in another?
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Re: v2 G.O.A.T The Last 16 Match 5
by Henman Bill Tue 19 Feb 2013, 9:58 pm
Maradona is only one "n" not a double "n": an error repeated a few times in the article.
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Re: v2 G.O.A.T The Last 16 Match 5
by Pal Joey Tue 19 Feb 2013, 10:02 pm
Yeah Bill, Madonna has a lot of explaining to do! 
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