England v Italy - 10th March Match Thread

[Chjw131]

First topic message reminder :

Venue - Twickenham Stadium

Kick Off - 15:00

Just thought i'd try and get a unified thread going for the game. The news so far is that Courtney Lawes, Dylan Hartley, James Haskell, David Strettle, Ben Foden, Lee Dickson, Matt Kvesic, Joel Tomkins, Davy Wilson and Thomas Waldrom have been released from the camp to play on the weekend.

Any thoughts on changes for the game? What does everyone think of Ashton probably retaining his place? Billy V and Morgan are both not training this week due to injury so any thoughts on back-row changes? I also assume, although it's not been mentioned that Will Fraser has been retained in camp so might we see him on the bench for Italy?

[Triangulation]

lies, damned lies and stats.

it aint the number of passes that matters (although as has been said above this can be interesting if the assertion is that a certain player doesnt pass)

it is the quality of the passing that really matters!

one really good pass can make a try!

[bluestonevedder]

.....and let's not forget the wonderful line that Twelvetrees ran for his try.

Sublime and pure class.

[SecretFly]

one really good try can make the pass that made it look better than it truly was................


...just saying, for Devil's Advocate right's an' all.

[Triangulation]

one really good try can make the pass that made it look better than it truly was................


...just saying, for Devil's Advocate right's an' all.

Give an example or two then devil'sfly


I can think of a great pass that made a try - BOD's pass to his winger the other day.

I can think of 2 bad passes that were caught for a try........Barrits pass to tuilagi (behind him) and Tuilagi's return pass (off Jane's arm) for the try vs the Abs.

Sometimes its the giving of the pass itself which is class eg lawes' pass to ashton for THAT try vs Australia. (and the fact that he drew 2 defenders before giving it)

[Scrumpy]

I have to admit it's a strange feeling this week as I'm not nervous like I've been for the previous games this year.

Maybe this is the calm before the storm?

[SecretFly]

one really good try can make the pass that made it look better than it truly was................


...just saying, for Devil's Advocate right's an' all.

Give an example or two then devil'sfly


I can think of a great pass that made a try - BOD's pass to his winger the other day.

I can think of 2 bad passes that were caught for a try........Barrits pass to tuilagi (behind him) and Tuilagi's return pass (off Jane's arm) for the try vs the Abs.

Sometimes its the giving of the pass itself which is class eg lawes' pass to ashton for THAT try vs Australia. (and the fact that he drew 2 defenders before giving it)

Oh you're right in the assumption, Tri...don't get me wrong ... but the corollary of what you say is also true. Odds dictate that it is so in the real world.... every action has a reaction. I don't do the editing room stuff of going over reels from old games but I know I'd pick out some examples if I took the time.

Let's try a generalised example. Those long sweeping passes that extend beyond the opposition's defensive formation, catching them out and forcing them to chase after the forgotten winger who has just recieved it and has some clear ground between himself and the tryline. His work has been helped along by the beauty of the long accurate pass, sure...but the work hasn't stopped and the only way the pass will be remembered is for the wing to chase for the line with still enough evasions to make the effort of the try scored his alone.

So yes, the pass then gets the replays and the praise, but the pass would have been seen as 'wrong option' had the receiver not worked magic to turn it into a try. There are as many of those events in the history of rugby as there are the lovely passes themselves.
It's mutual love I suppose between the passer and the try then scored.

[lostinwales]

...
So yes, the pass then gets the replays and the praise, but the pass would have been seen as 'wrong option' had the receiver not worked magic to turn it into a try. There are as many of those events in the history of rugby as there are the lovely passes themselves.
It's mutual love I suppose between the passer and the try then scored.

Depending on the result there is a fine line between someone who passes the ball and someone who tosses it.

[LondonTiger]

Tom Croft training with England this week:

http://www.rfu.com/news/2013/march/news-articles/040313_croft

[little_badger]

LTiger - any chance he will be involved do you think? Where would you put him if so, bench or 6 with Wood at 8 again?

Blimey it's starting to look like a bit of strength in depth....

[beshocked]

If you get a pass wrong it could be 7 points for the opposition too.

Triangulation I think you are overly harsh on Barritt and Tuilagi.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1L7qUBCIfaE

Barritt has to pass the ball early because I think Corey Jane is homing in on Tuilagi, Tuilagi rides the tackle then makes a really good pass back IMO.

Actually a good pass by Farrell too which lead to the break.

Tuilagi's pass to Ashton is also sweetly timed for his try.


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uGQldWRVQ0Y

Obviously that beautiful pass by Farrell vs Scotland deserves praise too.

[majesticimperialman]

I understand Strettle has been brought back into the England team this week.

Do you think he may replace Ashton for the Italy game?

Will Ashton be on the bench? or will he be dropped from the squad?

[LondonTiger]

LTiger - any chance he will be involved do you think? Where would you put him if so, bench or 6 with Wood at 8 again?

Blimey it's starting to look like a bit of strength in depth....

I doubt he will be involved to be honest.

He was retained in the EPS back in January, Tigers do not have a game next week - the two combined means I just feel that SL is taking the chance to start the reintegration process in the squad.

As we are now in the International window, Lancaster can add anyone to his squad and so the team will be from the 36 names in this squad. They specifically state that Farrell, Corbisiero, Morgan and clark are in the camp as part of recovering from injury.

[little_badger]

Anyone else feel that we might not see Ben Morgan this 6n? Injury appears to have struck with inopportune timing.

[johnpartle]

lies, damned lies and stats.

it aint the number of passes that matters (although as has been said above this can be interesting if the assertion is that a certain player doesnt pass)

it is the quality of the passing that really matters!

one really good pass can make a try!

A great pass obviously trumps just a good/average one, but for outside backs quantity of ball is also important, good players can create from just standard ball and the more you bring them into the game the more opportunity they have to make use of their abilities.

That's all aside from the main point I was making though which is given that Barritt passed more at 13 than we are used to seeing him do at 12 and that 36 passed less than many of us expected him to at 12 (running it almost three times as often), might it be part of the coaches' gameplan to structure our play that our 12s lean more towards carrying the ball?

[LondonTiger]

Anyone else feel that we might not see Ben Morgan this 6n? Injury appears to have struck with inopportune timing.

It is hard to see how he can be used against Wales if he is not fit this weekend.

[sickofwendy]

If tom croft is fit to play and on form surely even after such a long lay off he should be on the bench instead of Thomas walrus,no offence but the guy is class.

[yappysnap]

Surely that bench spot will go to Hask, or if he's starting (please at 8!) Then the bench 8 cover should be Vunipola

[sickofwendy]

I was just thinking towardsthe Wales game,with croft back in the squad the Welsh players,coaches,fans and media will be even more worried than they already are.
I think it would be best to hold billy vunipola back until the summer tour.
I would go for experience over raw potential as it is the 6 nations.

[Alex_Germany]

Croft? In the 23 or not? Starting?

Without Croft I'd go for Robshaw, Wood, Vunipola, with Haskell on the bench.

If this were a one off match, I wouldn't include Croft. If Croft goes to the bench, would you play Haskell or Vunipola, and drop the other?

So far Haskell has performed well - though shouldn't be denying Wood the 6 spot.

[yappysnap]

Let's hope the EPS boys can follow the example of the U18's...

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Q72v0lSw4Rg&feature=em-uploademail

[beshocked]

From accounts of Nick Tompkins this season he's been an absolute class act at 13. Of course I am biased. One to watch for the future IMO.

http://www.scotsman.com/sport/rugby/top-rugby-stories/england-u18-57-13-scotland-u18-1-2819338

[sickofwendy]

When was the last time billy v played?.

[Armchairexpert]

The danger of changes for this weekend is that they look too good. For example they could bring Croft in at 6 leaving Wood at 8. Wood and Robshaw work the breakdown (successfully) while croft hangs off and looks great charging about in broken play off turnover ball. Come Wales the same combination fails because Wood and Robshaw can't win enough ball on their own (I know there is the front five as well but you get the point) and Croft looks less than good because we never turn the ball over.

Not trying to point the finger of negativity at Croft as a similar situation could occur with any other new combination.

[RubyGuby]

I think Armchair makes a good point here - In many ways it would have been better for England to play France before Wales as any outstanding performances from players against Italy might just skew things a little. With that said I think SL is too wise to be taken in by such things and he knows what his best team is. Haskell and Flood for example having stormers v Italy is unlikely to make much difference and I would say the same about Croft

[gregortree]

Hey ! I can't find the England 2013 GS Glory Thread !
Where's it gone ?
Ok, I see it now.

[majesticimperialman]

When are the teams announced?

[Triangulation]

I think Armchair makes a good point here - In many ways it would have been better for England to play France before Wales as any outstanding performances from players against Italy might just skew things a little. With that said I think SL is too wise to be taken in by such things and he knows what his best team is. Haskell and Flood for example having stormers v Italy is unlikely to make much difference and I would say the same about Croft

You're right there rubgyguby. The press will champion this player or that or the selection quandry between 2 players but Lancaster and his coaches Rowntree and Farrell are pretty clear about what they want and they will look critically at all performances vs italy.

[Chjw131]

I can see what some are saying regarding having a 'better' team before Wales but actually I think it's probably good that we're looking at Italy now for the following reasons:

1. If we were to face either Ireland or France pre-Wales I think that would have taken a lot out of the team and particularly with a six day turnaround might be pushing that bit too far.

2. I think the team needs a decent open high scoring game to get a bit of the enjoyment back. Both the last two games have been heavy slogging affairs and contrary to English stereotype I don't think this team truly enjoys playing that sort of game.

Thirdly, this should help with confidence from the back-line for the Wales game. Ashton and to some extent Goode and Brown all need to get their eye in a bit more with a Wales game coming up which we'll need to score three tries to win I feel.

On the Croft front it's a tough call for Lancs. I don't really see him playing unless he can start straight away. Lancs wants to field BVP from the bench and therefore it would require Croft starting. Plus I don't think Haskell deserves to be dropped.

I would go:

6. T Wood
7. C Robshaw
8. J Haskell

20. B Vunipola

I might actually be tempted to start Vunipola from the off to see the sort of damage he could do to the Italians from minute one and really wreck their confidence.

[Alex_Germany]

Haskell is great to have in the team, but he's not the best 8. At least, Lancaster doesn't think so. So start with Vunipola.

Haskell is then great to have on the bench as he can cover all three back row positions. Lawes is also good to cover 2nd row as he can also cover 6 - but only if no on else can, as we saw last week.

England lost to Wales in 2008 because of injuries leading to a second row playing flanker, if I recall.

[gregortree]

England were all over Wales in H1, 2008 6n.
H2 Tindall Strettle & a flanker (name?) all went off injured, Tinds with a freak ruptured liver. Martyn Williams described it as a 'career opportunity' which Wales duly took.

[Cyril]

England were all over Wales in H1, 2008 6n.
H2 Tindall Strettle & a flanker (name?) all went off injured, Tinds with a freak ruptured liver. Martyn Williams described it as a 'career opportunity' which Wales duly took.

It was Rees I think. Kay came on.

[LondonTiger]

England were all over Wales in H1, 2008 6n.
H2 Tindall Strettle & a flanker (name?) all went off injured, Tinds with a freak ruptured liver. Martyn Williams described it as a 'career opportunity' which Wales duly took.

http://www.espnscrum.com/statsguru/rugby/match/25584.html
http://www.rbs6nations.com/en/matchcentre/7997.php

England led 16-6 at half time. During the first half Strettle and Moody went off injuerd, replaced by Vainikolo and Rees. Rees was replaced by Ben Kay at half time. England extended the lead to 19-6 before tindall was forced off and replaced by Cipriani. Wales scored 20pts in 13 minutes to win the match.

[lostinwales]

Strettle made that fantastic break then broke his foot. It all went horribly wrong. And Mike Phillips was hugely inspired in that last section of the game, the Bar Steward

[king_carlos]

What sides would be people go for on Sunday? Personally I wouldn't make too many changes beyond the enforced ones from an English perspective:

1.Marler
2.Youngs
3.Cole
4.Launchberry
5.Parling
6.Haskell
7.Robshaw
8.Wood

9.Youngs
10.Flood

11.Foden
12.Barritt
13.Tuilagi
14.Ashton
15.Brown (harsh on Goode but I'd like to see our best FB at 15 and some pace in the back 3)

16.Hartley
17.Vunipola
18.Wilson
19.Lawes
20.Croft
21.Care
22.Burns
23.Twelvetrees

The less conservative side of me would love to see 36 start along with Billy Vunipola at 8 but at the same time I don't think Haskell deserves to be dropped and I'd love to see Croft get gametime from the bench....

Good dilemmas to have though at the end of the day!

[lostinwales]

I think the chances of Foden playing are next to zero. What time is the announcement coming?

[LondonTiger]

I think the chances of Foden playing are next to zero. What time is the announcement coming?

Tomorrow lunchtime I think.

[LondonTiger]

I expect the following to be the team:

Mako V, Youngs T, Cole, Launchbury, Parling, Haskell, Robshaw, Wood
Care, Flood, Brown, 36, Tuilagi, Ashton, Goode
Reps: Marler, Hartley, Wilson, Lawes, Billy V, Youngs B, Burns, Barritt

[king_carlos]

I think the chances of Foden playing are next to zero. What time is the announcement coming?

Not really expecting him to play to be honest so more hope than anything. I just desperately want some pace on the wings.

[lostinwales]

I expect the following to be the team:

Mako V, Youngs T, Cole, Launchbury, Parling, Haskell, Robshaw, Wood
Care, Flood, Brown, 36, Tuilagi, Ashton, Goode
Reps: Marler, Hartley, Wilson, Lawes, Billy V, Youngs B, Burns, Barritt

I agree. The most out there it could get would be Croft in for Haskell who would then either replace Lawes on the bench or miss out altogether. I would also like to see BV start and get replaced when hes knackered, rather than bring him on and rely on him lasting from that point to the end of the match.

[yappysnap]

I think that could be it and ild be happy with all of that except swapping Hask and Wood.

Goode will most likely start as well, so will Care.

[sickofwendy]

Regarding that 1st half in '08,sackey was held up by Duncan Jones right on half time.The gods were really against us that day.the only plus was that big les made his debut.......oh wait a minute

[Luckless Pedestrian]

In fairness, the gods were probably just tired of seeing England beat Wales at Twickenham.

[LondonTiger]

Regarding that 1st half in '08,sackey was held up by Duncan Jones right on half time.The gods were really against us that day.the only plus was that big les made his debut.......oh wait a minute

[Cyril]

To be fair to Big Les didn't he set up the first try with a nice offload/diving pass to Flood?

Yeah, that was probably about as good as it got for him.

[gregortree]

England were all over Wales in H1, 2008 6n.
H2 Tindall Strettle & a flanker (name?) all went off injured, Tinds with a freak ruptured liver. Martyn Williams described it as a 'career opportunity' which Wales duly took.

http://www.espnscrum.com/statsguru/rugby/match/25584.html
http://www.rbs6nations.com/en/matchcentre/7997.php

England led 16-6 at half time. During the first half Strettle and Moody went off injuerd, replaced by Vainikolo and Rees. Rees was replaced by Ben Kay at half time. England extended the lead to 19-6 before tindall was forced off and replaced by Cipriani. Wales scored 20pts in 13 minutes to win the match.

LT thanks. Losing Tinds & Moody gutted Englands defence. And Ben Kay good 2nd row but not a flanker. Our shape totally went. Cips for Tindall

[Alex_Germany]

I reckon Lawes is a better flanker than Kay. I suspect Kay might even agree with that.

[Bathman_in_London]

I was sitting in the north west corner with a welsh mate surrounded by red shirts. I got quieter and quieter as the game went on!

[Peter Seabiscuit Wheeler]

I just desperately want some pace on the wings.

Everyone else moans at Croft for hanging ou there

[king_carlos]

I just desperately want some pace on the wings.

Everyone else moans at Croft for hanging ou there

Would be interesting to see the best side we could name with forwards in the backs and vice versa though...

1.
2.Andy Goode
3.Tuilagi
4.Bananaman
5.
6.Barritt
7.Twelvetrees -he's got a fair few turnovers this season
8.

9. ? Would've been Lee Mears until recently
10.Robshaw - he keeps trying to stand at first receiver

11.Croft
12.
13.Haskell - could perform the Tuilagi job
14.Guest
15.

[LondonTiger]

Would be interesting to see the best side we could name with forwards in the backs and vice versa though...

1.Andy Goode - Moved to accomodate Cipriani
2. Cipriani - who wouldn't want to see this?
3.Tuilagi
4.Bananaman
5. Twelvetrees moved as he is tall and has good hands, should be decent in lineout
6.Barritt
7. Mike Brown
8. Ugo Monye

9. Tom Youngs was a 12, but surely would go well at 9
10.Robshaw

11.Croft
12. Steffon Armitage
13.Haskell - could perform the Tuilagi job
14.Guest
15. Thomas Waldrom most no8s seem to spend half the match covering FB so theycan run back a kick. Better kicker than Morgan or BillyV

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