Argentina vs England - 8.10pm KO

First topic message reminder :

I haven't seen a match thread for the game yet so thought I'd get one up and going, with the game on BBC hopefully plenty will be watching!

Argentina

M Bustos Moyano (Montpellier); M Orlando (Huirapuca), G Tiesi (unattached), F Contepomi (Stade Francais), M Montero (Club Pucara); B Urdapilleta (Oyonnax), M Landajo (CASI); P Henn (Brive), M Garcia Veiga (Buenos Aires C & CR), M Bustos (Montpellier), E Lozada, (Agen) M Galarza (University of La Plata), J Farias Cabello (unattached), B Macome (Tucuman), T Leonardi (Southern Kings).

Replacements: M Guidone (La Plata), G Roan (Cavalieri Prato), F Gomez Kodela (Biarritz), T Vallejos Cinalli (unattached), T De la Vega (CUBA), N Vergallo (Southern Kings), G Ascarate (Carcassonne), B Agulla (unattached).

England

M Brown (Harlequins); C Wade (Wasps), J Joseph (London Irish), B Twelvetrees (Gloucester), D Strettle (Saracens); F Burns (Gloucester), L Dickson (Northampton); J Marler (Harlequins), R Webber (Bath), D Wilson (Bath), J Launchbury (Wasps), D Attwood (Bath), T Wood (Northampton, capt), M Kvesic (Worcester), B Morgan (Gloucester).

Replacements: D Paice (London Irish), H Thomas (Sale Sharks), P Doran-Jones (Northampton), C Lawes (Northampton), B Vunipola (Wasps), R Wigglesworth (Saracens), K Eastmond (Bath), B Foden (Northampton).

Looking at the teams both sides are unsurprisingly putting out some new faces with Argentina fielding a very experimental side.

For those wanting to watch the BBC 2 coverage starts at 7.30pm with KO at 8.10pm. Hopefully we'll see a good game with some bruising forward battles up front and some skill from the backs in behind them - as an England fan I yet live in hope of the Burns, Twelvetrees and Wade rejuvenation of the backline!

Yarde/May/Foden would have scored

GLove39 wrote:

Sgt_Pooly wrote:This was started much earlier by one of your top douches, happy to state Japan are the worst side put out today

The Scotland team that trotted out in Durban today would beg to differ...

Probably the worst first up tackling team

This Argentina side wins worst set piece

Italy best turnaround and unfairest scoreline

Red best try

France most french performance

Lions vs Red most entertaining match I think

O ffs

Too many moments like that from England this half - players showing their inexperience.

Strettle hasn't done much to back up his selection it has to be said.

What's the point in Paice?

Poor second half but Arg showing they're no mugs.

ChequeredJersey wrote:What's the point in Paice?

We needed another foreign born player to feed the trolls

Yes Billy!

The ref has been as bad as England in this second half. Seems to be guessing on a lot of the decisions. Hope he is more consistent in a couple of weeks time.

Are we going for a scoreless second half?

How dull

I really really REALLY can't stand Eddie Butler as a commentator

ChequeredJersey wrote:What's the point in Paice?

Along with Strettle he really hasn't justified Lancaster's faith today. I'll be very interested to see how ruthless SL is with them next week as misplaced faith in players could really hold us back over the coming season!

Decent 10 minutes seeing as we were a man down. Shame they couldn't finish some of the chances off but they'd won the game in the first 20 mins or so.

Well done Billy

Let Billy run at them off the back of the scrum

Billy strolls over. Well done TMO

The open side is unbound from the scrum so he shouldn't been there. Fair call

Unbelievable

That should be given as a try.. and it is.. well done Billy

lol, terrible decision!

Vunipola gets a try

Bit lucky since the Arg 7 was held at that scrum

Billy and Mako might just be my new favourite players after this summer

The ref must have laser vision to have spotted that shirt grab

This ref is crap at communicating with the players.

Actually, good point, the 7 was cheating which cancelled out our cheating.

Weird game to watch. Felt a lot like a training session, with one team instructed not to attack too much and allow the other team to go through the motions

Interesting series of events there. Kvesic was holding their openside but given that the 7 was making no effort to bind with the ball still in I'd say it's 6 of one half a dozen of the other.

A very good first half then a frustrating second one with Argentina much improved in that 2nd 40 minutes. Contepomi really showed his class in that second half though.

ChequeredJersey wrote:Actually, good point, the 7 was cheating which cancelled out our cheating.

Two wrongs make a right!

BamBam wrote:Billy and Mako might just be my new favourite players after this summer

Think I might agree, it was hilarious watching Billy fall over the line a few times last week and Mako is having a fantastic tour so far.

Poor Poor 2nd half.

First time I've seen Wade play, have to say I'm impressed

Well done England

wales606 wrote:

ChequeredJersey wrote:Actually, good point, the 7 was cheating which cancelled out our cheating.

Two wrongs make a right!

we'll if they hadn't been cheating then the 7 wouldn't have been able to make the tackle anyway

wales606 wrote:

ChequeredJersey wrote:Actually, good point, the 7 was cheating which cancelled out our cheating.

Two wrongs make a right!

More like the TMO didn't see the point awarding a penalty to England and since England's offence was holding someone who shouldn't have been there it didn't matter. Especially as if he was bound he would have been further away from Billy. Matt was just trying to stop the guy getting penalised

Could be worse, we could be just beating Japan

Well that was easy. Went to sleep in the 2nd half, but it didn't matter.

lessons learnt today - teams play a lot better with wingers on the wing, attacking Fullbacks and centres and an 8 at 8

and Argentina can't win a lineout for Poopie

ChequeredJersey wrote:lessons learnt today - teams play a lot better with wingers on the wing, attacking Fullbacks and centres and an 8 at 8

You live and learn.

Shame we didn't see Wade under massive pressure defensively but a good game by him. Disappointed by Burns really.

Changes for next week? I'd start most of the bench. Not Paice

ChequeredJersey wrote:and Argentina can't win a lineout for Poopie

Or kick at goal for toffee

Burns in defense was better than I expected after all all these stories of visser like levels of bravery and technique.

Strettle took his try well but was pretty useless the rest of the time.

36 and Wade were really good - handling, angles threat. Joseph played well too. I think if he had just gone for the line he would have made it, just on momentum.

What else - Brown is good but Foden is better - Morgan was terrific in that first half but I doubt he ever touched the ball in the 2nd- tight 5 all had good games. Kvesic was busy but average - Wood seemed fairly quiet but we would have noticed if he wasnt there - if you know what I mean.

36 and Wade simply have to be in the team for the Autumn games.

I'm still unsure about whether Burns is ready to start at 10 in the long run but I would give him a shot with Youngs at scrum half, 36 and Tuilagi in the centres and a proper back 3. He has shown today he is not a complete defensive liability and he has so much attacking potential

I really hope we persevere with 36 and not barritt

Sgt_Pooly wrote:

viewtothegym wrote:Douche? why are you calling each other "shower" in French?

Thank god for google eh

The missus is learning French and i heard he saying it the other week and asked what is she on about! funny how that one stood out but i couldn't remember another word.

Wade and 36 are true playmakers - both ran great lines all game (esp in the first half) and made the key breaks to create try scoring opportunities.
Morgan was the other standout - just so hard to stop once he's got momentum, though I still think fitness could be improved. Was a bit disappointed we didn't get to see these three continue their stellar work in the second half but obviously England didn't have as much possession and the conditions probably inhibited their play too

I might be biased but I thought when Wiggy came on, the game slowed down. Dickson did not have a good game, but he still puts more pace into it than Wiggie. This suits the side in it's current format.

Some really encouraging play. It was good to see our forwards looking to offload, a big reason for this I think being the return of Morgan. However I still think our pick and drive game isn't up to scratch. In the 6Ns we became obsessed with only going to ground and recycling, this was fine in the first game but as our rucking, depressingly, got progressively worse during the tournament (or came up against better opposition) this lost its effectiveness. On occasions against Argentina we had a big carry but then the following forwards only focused on clearing out. In some cases not particularly well. I think, with a defence in disarray, the pick and go would often have been a better decision. Eventually forwards get sucked in and the width comes further out. Wales is still far better than this, as is SA and others. I think developing our forwards to make better decisions on this is really important. Another worrying sign of a bit of rigidity was the truck and trailer awarded against us, we need to be better at looking up and seeing the situation for what it is.

One area I think we should lead the way in is the bench. We clearly now have a better bench than previously withe more options. For better or worse the bench seems to be becoming more important than ever. We need to look beyond a strategy that says 'This player will be replaced by that player at 60 mins' etc. as we seem to at present. Our coaches need to look at who is doing what well and what can be achieved by subs. If Ben Morgan is looking jaded and our carrying is not making ground, bring on BV. If we're getting counter-rucked, bring on Kvesic, or similar. I think developing a more flexible approach to subs, but with some structure, could give us a big advantage over other teams.

I still also think some of our players need to given a target of becoming the top player in the world in their position, although this may already be the case. Dan Cole has improved in his work on the deck, but it seems to have set his carrying back a little. We need players like him picking up in these areas and establishing themselves as world class all-rounders. If not, they need to be the absolute best in at least two facets of the game.

Anyway, hopefully the offloads were a sign of some evolution. This was a poor Argentina team but given the lack of experience in the England team it was encouraging. Wade's distribution and quick thinking was a glimpse of what he might bring. Speed of thought and deed. Would be great if we can build a system that includes him effectively.

Yeah Wade's passing (including the time he stepped in at scrum half at a ruck) made Strettle's attempts look just laughable. It was great to see.

Before the game I questioned Strettle's inclusion, and having watched it, I still ask the same question. I understand that Lancaster may not have wanted 2 test debutant wingers in an inexperienced backline, but Marland Yarde offers far more than Strettle can.

I thought Christian Wade was excellent. Had Lancaster taken a punt on him last autumn or even in the 6 Nations, I suspect he may have been in Australia rather than Argentina right now.

Strettle is terrible, this england sides Mark Queto

Wade had an excellent game, but I do think there needs to be a pinch of salt before we build him up to the next big thing. He was barely tested in defence and his opposite number was unlikely to ever really challenge him. He still showed far more attacking intent than any English wing for some time, but we do have a habit of setting very high expectations before someone has truly been tested. Nevertheless, he needs to stay in that side.

I've never hid my views on Strettle, he's a good club player, but he's like a blinkered race horse - very fast, but just doesn;t read the game. I agree with Ozzy that SL probably picked him due to concern over not putting too many debutants in one game, but Yarde or May need to be on that left wing and that should signal the end of Strettle in the EPS.

As Freddie Burns was always lined up for the starting 10 spot it seems that SL picked Dickson and Wigglesworth to provide some experience in the half backs, however, to me both SHs are playing like they know they are stop gaps. There's no urgency, no sniping runs and no real control. Again I feel SL showed his conservative side. Neither SH are going to be the long term solution for England, so why take both? I can see the merit in having one, but wouldn't the likes of Simpson or Robson benefited more from going on tour?

We also need to retain some perspective here as that Argentina side was pretty woeful. They removed all their top players and clearly do not have the strength in depth. A full strength Argentina would be a different matter so we need to see a proper test for this England side before we get too carried away.