Scotland changes for South Africa

by sensisball Sun 09 Jun 2013, 8:48 am

First topic message reminder :

After a lacklustre display when we were outmuscled and outplayed by a tough Samoa team we now prepare to face the boks!
What changes can we make to try to get any kind of credible performance next week?
For me the glaring error in the starting team was the selection of Gilchrist and Kellock. Neither can last 80 minutes so you end up playing with effectively one lock for the end of the match. Remember Gilchrist being smashed around 78 minutes as he drove for the line?
One of the reasons that Kellock, Ryder and Swinson are such an effective trio for the weege is that Ryder and Swinson can both easily last the 80.
I would start Swinson and Kellock and have Ryder on the bench, oh sorry he isnt good enough to get in this tour squad! But it would be nice to have a lock that can actually carry effectively wouldnt it?
I cant face going over all the other parts of the team that didnt work, but im sure you guys will have some thoughts.
Seriously though, we could do with Swinson and his ability to turn over ball in contact as we will need to try and slow down as much of the Boka ball as we can.

by Pat_Mustard Thu 13 Jun 2013, 12:52 pm

Plus Brown, Hall, and Weir

by Pat_Mustard Thu 13 Jun 2013, 12:53 pm

Of the starting XV for Saturday probably only Murray, Hamilton, Beattie and Scott are really first choice, and several are third choice or below!

by **RDW** Thu 13 Jun 2013, 12:54 pm

Pat_Mustard wrote:Plus Brown, Hall, and Weir

Added them too

by Pat_Mustard Thu 13 Jun 2013, 12:56 pm

So I think what we are putting out is not too bad in the circumstances and considering our resources. We will almost certainly lose, but a few years ago if we had that number missing it would have been much worse.

by 123456789 Thu 13 Jun 2013, 12:56 pm

If this tour ends as a total disaster, then at least Denton and the group of players his age will have seen the level they have to be at to succeed and know hard work is required, there is no doubting their obvious potential but a lot of some seem to lack the work ethic of previous Scottish players.

by allyt2k Thu 13 Jun 2013, 1:00 pm

Ansbro Retiring due to injurie this season could be included aswell

by Dorothy_Mantooth Thu 13 Jun 2013, 1:01 pm

Pat_Mustard wrote:Of the starting XV for Saturday probably only Murray, Hamilton, Beattie and Scott are really first choice, and several are third choice or below!

Some are 3rd Choice at their clubs never-mind National level. Hindsight I know, but what a waste of time this tour is.

by Dorothy_Mantooth Thu 13 Jun 2013, 1:08 pm

123456789 wrote:If this tour ends as a total disaster, then at least Denton and the group of players his age will have seen the level they have to be at to succeed and know hard work is required, there is no doubting their obvious potential but a lot of some seem to lack the work ethic of previous Scottish players.

Or maybe it shows, that if you manage to hang onto a contract with either of the Pro Teams, its almost impossible NOT to get a Scotland cap!

by RuggerRadge2611 Thu 13 Jun 2013, 1:09 pm

Maybe I'm over reacting but I feel a huge sense of dread about this game. We are set to get thumped methinks.

by funnyExiledScot Thu 13 Jun 2013, 1:16 pm

I'm pleased Visser is dropped. Hopefully he'll take the hint, that tackling and fronting up isn't an option in international rugby.

Slightly surprised and disappointed to see Tonks dropped, but there's no question that Murchie has exceeded expectations this season for Glasgow. I don't think he's an international quality player though.

Delighted Swinson is selected. About time!

by **George Carlin** Thu 13 Jun 2013, 3:22 pm

WTF? Has anyone actually posted the team yet. Anyone? Okay then:

Peter Murchie,
Tommy Seymour,
Alex Dunbar,
Matt Scott,
Sean Lamont,
Ruaridh Jackson,
Greig Laidlaw (capt),

Alasdair Dickinson,
Scott Lawson,
Euan Murray,
Tim Swinson,
Jim Hamilton,
Alasdair Strokosch,
Ryan Wilson,
Johnnie Beattie.

Replacements :
Stevie Lawrie,
Jon Welsh,
Moray Low,
Alastair Kellock,
David Denton,
Henry Pyrgos,
Peter Horne,
Duncan Taylor.

Let's be honest. Isn't that about the best team we could have hoped for in the circumstances.

Murray at tighthead, Swinson and Big Jim in the boilerhouse, a loose with a bit of pace in Wilson at 7, a winger who can actually run in Seymour. Come on.

by AsLongAsBut100ofUs Thu 13 Jun 2013, 3:35 pm

funnyExiledScot wrote:I'm pleased Visser is dropped. Hopefully he'll take the hint, that tackling and fronting up isn't an option in international rugby.

Slightly surprised and disappointed to see Tonks dropped, but there's no question that Murchie has exceeded expectations this season for Glasgow. I don't think he's an international quality player though.

Delighted Swinson is selected. About time!

Neither is Tonks really international quality if we are to use the same yardstick but if that's all we've got at the moment with Rory Lamont having retired and Tom Brown having been injured and not kicked on as hoped, then perhaps we just have to suck it up. Don't think Tonks or Murchie would be capped for any other 6Ns side (Italy aside perhaps) but maybe that's just an honest assessment of where we are

by Scot Abroad Thu 13 Jun 2013, 3:51 pm

RDW_Scotland wrote:What are people's thoughts on Wilson at 7? Tall, rangy runners don't normally play 7...

I think it was more a process of elimination than a direct choice. Wilson plays 8 but we’d rather see Beattie there. Denton can cover 6/8 but hasn’t been at his best and is just returning from injury so it’s best to have him benching. Stroks could play 7 but probably isn’t mobile enough to get around the park, and his ability to hit anything that moves will be needed elsewhere. That leaves Wilson, the more mobile option coming in to play 7. I presume Johnson will have instructed him to run himself into the ground and get to every breakdown and do what he can. While he won’t be able to force as many turnovers as Barclay or Rennie could, his presence alone should do enough to stop SA’s from getting quick ball all the time.

by Captain_Sensible Thu 13 Jun 2013, 3:54 pm

AsLongAsBut100ofUs wrote:
funnyExiledScot wrote:I'm pleased Visser is dropped. Hopefully he'll take the hint, that tackling and fronting up isn't an option in international rugby.

Slightly surprised and disappointed to see Tonks dropped, but there's no question that Murchie has exceeded expectations this season for Glasgow. I don't think he's an international quality player though.

Delighted Swinson is selected. About time!

Neither is Tonks really international quality if we are to use the same yardstick but if that's all we've got at the moment with Rory Lamont having retired and Tom Brown having been injured and not kicked on as hoped, then perhaps we just have to suck it up. Don't think Tonks or Murchie would be capped for any other 6Ns side (Italy aside perhaps) but maybe that's just an honest assessment of where we are

Actually, it's a slightly deceptive assessment of where we are. Tonks and Murchie are our 3rd and 4th choice fullbacks. If you look at the similarly placed fullbacks from Wales, Ireland and Italy, there would be a lot of dross.

by patersonismyhero Thu 13 Jun 2013, 11:07 pm

Maybe even 4th and 5th given S Lamont's magical powers.

by **LondonTiger** Fri 14 Jun 2013, 8:07 am

Giving a player a first cap, them immediately dropping them is not exactly conducive to building a team. Tonks is out and now Murchie gets a debut, but will be feeling that any mistakes will see him dropped straight away.

by Dorothy_Mantooth Fri 14 Jun 2013, 8:26 am

LondonTiger wrote:Giving a player a first cap, them immediately dropping them is not exactly conducive to building a team. Tonks is out and now Murchie gets a debut, but will be feeling that any mistakes will see him dropped straight away.

Murchie was in the Scotsman saying that he knew before they left for South Africa that he was playing in this game. Suggests that Tonks was not dropped for one mistake but because of plans made to ensure both Full Backs got a chance.

by funnyExiledScot Fri 14 Jun 2013, 10:05 am

That sounds plausible - they are pretty closely matched players really, although I think Murchie probably drew the short straw getting South Africa rather than Samoa. Morne Steyn know how to kick a rugby ball, and Murchie's positioning will certainly be tested, and I suspect he'll have the odd bit of last ditch tackling to perform as well.

Tonks was exposed against Samoa, but because Visser wasn't even impeding the Samoan attack, by the time it got to Tonks he was defending a hopeless 2 on 1. Hopefully Murchie will get better protection from his backs in this one.

ASBO - I concur, neither are really international class, but as Captain Sensible notes above, they are arguably 2/3 or 3/4 choice. Whilst I'm sure the Irish will tell you that Felix Jones and Keith Earls are world class fullbacks, truth is behind Rob Kearney they aren't blessed either, and similarly Wales (behind Halfpenny and Byrne - although I'm sure some will tell you that Liam Williams is better than we think etc etc.).

by Pat_Mustard Fri 14 Jun 2013, 10:49 am

Lawrie failed a fitness test - Fraser Brown on the bench! Shocked

by funnyExiledScot Fri 14 Jun 2013, 10:52 am

Well coming on to face Du Plessis will be an experience he won't forget!

Tomorrow is going to be a real sink or swim occasion for a number of individuals. It'll be an interesting watch, if nothing else.

by IanBru Fri 14 Jun 2013, 10:58 am

Oh deary me.

Well, best grit my teeth and assume the position...

by **RDW** Fri 14 Jun 2013, 11:13 am

Welcome to Pro Rugby Fraser Brown!

by funnyExiledScot Fri 14 Jun 2013, 11:16 am

It's actually comical. First pro rugby match and he's facing one of the greatest and most powerful packs in world rugby and the number one hooker in the world, on their own patch!

ASBO will be delighted - this is exactly how to bring the youngsters through!! No need for club rugby or anything silly like that!

by Dorothy_Mantooth Fri 14 Jun 2013, 11:21 am

If he comes on that must be some kind of record. Can't be many full time pro countries that have capped a player who has 44 minutes pro experience.

by **RDW** Fri 14 Jun 2013, 11:22 am

And we al know fine well that sods law states that Lawson is going to get injured in the first 10 minutes!

If Murray also pulls out before the game we really are in deep crap.

by funnyExiledScot Fri 14 Jun 2013, 11:23 am

I think we could forgive Fraser Brown a cheeky little vomit before the game!!

by **RDW** Fri 14 Jun 2013, 11:30 am

In other news SQ scrum half Brendan McKibbin is starting against the Lions - will be interesting to see how he gets on. Pretty sure Glasgow needs another scrum half...

by funnyExiledScot Fri 14 Jun 2013, 11:34 am

Good stuff - have been wanting to see how good this guy is.

Could be the replacement for Cusiter when Cusiter finally concedes that he'd rather work for the BBC than play rugby....

by IanBru Fri 14 Jun 2013, 11:38 am

To be fair to Cus, he is pretty good on TV, even if he has been inducted into the Guscott/Nicol crazy scarf cult.

by AsLongAsBut100ofUs Fri 14 Jun 2013, 11:40 am

Brownie will be just fine - he should by rights have had loads more pro experience had injury not robbed him of a couple of seasons - he was an excellent hooker at U20 level and hasn't become Poopie overnite. Ok, he hasn't got the fES-requisite 4,983,715 minutes of Lions experience that our friend frae Stockbridge would like, but he'll hold his end

by Pat_Mustard Fri 14 Jun 2013, 11:49 am

What is the hooker injury list looking like? I mean I know Ford, Hall, MacArthur and Lawrie are out but what about guys like Finlay Gillies? Would have thought he would be ahead of Brown? Aren't there a couple of young guys at Edinburgh with pro experience too? Or has Brown leapfrogged them all?

by **RDW** Fri 14 Jun 2013, 11:51 am

Alun Walker hasn't played for Edinburgh all season - Ford, Lawrie and Titterell played instead.

Last season you would have added Andy Kelly to the list, but he was released by Edinburgh and fallen off the planet since in terms of rugby.

by Dorothy_Mantooth Fri 14 Jun 2013, 12:21 pm

Gillies was injured most of last season, I assume he still is.

by funnyExiledScot Fri 14 Jun 2013, 12:25 pm

Thank goodness!! I didn't realise he was quite good at U20 level two years ago.

That's put my fears to rest, cheers ASBO. Sounds like he'll be just fine....

thumbsup

by sensisball Fri 14 Jun 2013, 12:26 pm

Also Gillies makes Scott Lawson look like a man mountain! He is almost an umpa lumpa he is so short.
At least Brown is of the general size for an international hooker, although he is unlikely to be able to sink the Bismarck (always wanted to use that phrase on 606)

by **RDW** Fri 14 Jun 2013, 12:26 pm

Got to agree with FES here – as much as he was good for the under 20s he’s either been injured or playing amateur rugby since then…

by funnyExiledScot Fri 14 Jun 2013, 12:32 pm

Come on RDW - he won't have become rubbish overnight (or rather over the 730 nights that have passed since he played junior rugby).

He has 44 minutes of solid gold pro-rugby. If I were Du Plessis I'd be hoping Scott Lawson plays the full 80.

by GLove39 Fri 14 Jun 2013, 12:42 pm

Ooft! Planet Rugby have predicted South Africa to win by 30 points

by RubyGuby Fri 14 Jun 2013, 12:46 pm

Is this tournament the reason why the new coach said he wasn't joinging till 2014 thumbsup

by **RDW** Fri 14 Jun 2013, 12:46 pm

FES You're in a great mood today! mad

Glove - I'd be delighted with 30 points TBH

by GLove39 Fri 14 Jun 2013, 1:02 pm

Yeah, I know it's a realistic if not slightly conservative estimate from PR! The issue though is I woke up this morning with that classic pre game optimistic feeling...

by **George Carlin** Fri 14 Jun 2013, 1:41 pm

Would so much rather our problems were at loosehead rather than 2 and 3. At least I'd have confidence in bringing in someone like Grant Shiells who has got the better of the likes of Hayman before.

Really hope Murray manages at least an hour.

by funnyExiledScot Fri 14 Jun 2013, 2:12 pm

Agreed GC, I'm really positive about Grant Shiells in the Aviva next season. Looks very promising.

Beattie is going to have a tough job at the base of the scrum tomorrow, there could be some messy ball to deal with and they're going to need to move it away quickly before the scrum gets into trouble. Murray and Hamilton are going to be key here - they need to keep things solid for as long as possible, and Dickinson is going to need to be technically very smart again.

A lot is going to come down to Laidlaw's performance at 9. If he blunts us again then I think Pyrgos should play against Italy. We need to be much faster.

by **RDW** Sat 15 Jun 2013, 2:00 pm

Was impressed with McKibbin this morning - he'd be a real asset to Scotland.

Very much in the Laidlaw mould but a much sharper pass - fantastic goal kicker too.

Can't see him wanting to come to Scotland though!

by GLove39 Sat 15 Jun 2013, 2:03 pm

Could we not just get some of the Scottish boys to kidnap him? Maybe wrestle him into a mail bag after the post match dinner, slap a load of stamps on it and get it sent to EH12?

by GLove39 Sat 15 Jun 2013, 2:09 pm

Also Samoa 10-3 up at half time against Italy.
So lookng as though we're heading for a South Africa - Samoa boxing

& Scotland - Italy showdown next week.

by **George Carlin** Sat 15 Jun 2013, 2:52 pm

Samoa currently beating Italy like they owe them money.
5 tries and 40 points to the good.

by **George Carlin** Sat 15 Jun 2013, 2:58 pm

funnyExiledScot wrote:Agreed GC, I'm really positive about Grant Shiells in the Aviva next season. Looks very promising.

Beattie is going to have a tough job at the base of the scrum tomorrow, there could be some messy ball to deal with and they're going to need to move it away quickly before the scrum gets into trouble. Murray and Hamilton are going to be key here - they need to keep things solid for as long as possible, and Dickinson is going to need to be technically very smart again.

A lot is going to come down to Laidlaw's performance at 9. If he blunts us again then I think Pyrgos should play against Italy. We need to be much faster.

I did actually mean Grant Shiells, rather than Graeme (whom I went to school with and who would be delighted I've got him down as a future internationalist).

Beattie needs a big game rather than an invisible one punctuated by two good runs and a beautiful offload. That's Denton's job. It's coalface time and all of the front 8 need to put in a pile of work to give our backs a chance to do anything at all. At all.

I agree that if we can get a reliable kicker then Laidlaw is going to have to start fearing for his position. Let's see how he fares against Pienaar today. I am looking enviously round at other 9s at present - England has ridiculous strength in that position. What we would do for a McMatawalu right now.

by **RDW** Sat 15 Jun 2013, 4:10 pm

Right let the slaughter commence....

by highland_scot Sat 15 Jun 2013, 4:12 pm

anyone got a link?

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