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Scotland vs South Africa pre-match buildup.

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Scotland vs South Africa pre-match buildup. Empty Scotland vs South Africa pre-match buildup.

Post by Biltong Mon Nov 11, 2013 9:27 am

I thought I would start a Scotland vs South Africa thread, seeing that the other one is filled to the brim and there is a new opponent to focus on.

Scotland had a good game against South Africa with a not a full strength team in June. although I was not enammered with the tactics of Scotlands' tactics at the breakdown during that match, you have to give them Cudo's for their performance.

They scored two well executed tries and had our breakdown I shambles for most of the match.

South Africa learnt a lot from that match and it should stand them in good stead for the upcoming match.

By virtue of the Scottish performance on the weekend I would suggest that they will go into this match feeling better prepared and a bit of a roll. The momentum of a good match is always a positive to have.

It is obviously to early to speculate too much on team selections, but I would expect Scotland to put out their very best for this one.

Heyneke Meyer has been a tad contradictory in his media releases this past week as he first suggested that he will make some changes against Scotland regardless of the result against wales, but after the match he said he isn't going to make too many changes and doesn't believe in resting his best players during a test season, that should happen during the Super Xv and Currie Cup which we all know is a farce.

Morne Steyn had a back spasm during the Welsh encounter and will be assessed later in the week. I would like to see Lambie get another go at ten though.

SA have improved during the past RC and hopefully they can continue to improve.

For some reason we play poorly at Murrayfield, and I am hoping that we show a better performance there than we did in the past decade.

I'll update the thread as more news and team selections become available.

Scotland team announced.

1. Dickinson
2. Ford
3. Low
4. Gray snr
5. Hamiton
6. Strokosch
7. Denton
8. Barclay
9. Laidlaw (c)
10. Jackson
11. Lamont
12. Taylor
13. NDL
14.Seymour
15. Maitland

Replacements

16. Lawson
17. Grant
18. Cross
19. Gray jnr
20. Beattie
21. Cuisiter
22. Weir
23. Evans


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Post by alive555 Mon Nov 11, 2013 9:47 am

Started last game on left and possible team on right (barring injuries)

P Murchie - Sean Maitland
T Seymour  
A Dunbar - N De Luca
M Scott *
S Lamont
R Jackson
G Laidlaw
A Dickinson - Ryan Grant *
S Lawson - Ford
E Murray - Cross
T Swinson
J Hamilton - Richie Gray
A Strokosch Barclay
R Wilson  - Brown
J Beattie - Dave Denton

something like that i guess.

*doubtful as assessed for injury

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Post by RuggerRadge2611 Mon Nov 11, 2013 9:55 am

Firstly I was always worried about this match. I'm even more worried after seeing the Wales game.

The Scoreline between Wales and SA was a lot closer than the game suggested.

Wales were utterly thumped from the moment the whistle blew. Physically South Africa looked invincible. They carried the ball with power, strength and aggression. Wales had absolutely no answer.

Up front I feel South Africa dealt well with the Welsh breakdown operators and the South African Lineout and Scrum seemed strong too.

Even more worrying is how lethal Pieterson and Habana looked. I feel the Welsh backline is probably a bit better at defending than the Scottish backline so this is another area of concern.

I don't want to seem like a storm crow but I feel we are in big trouble this weekend. South Africa looked like a panzer tank with a jet engine at the weekend and they'll be answering some tough questions of Scotland. I'm not sure how we'll be able to answer them.


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Post by RDW Mon Nov 11, 2013 9:55 am

Biltong,

What do you think the SA squad’s mindset will be after the game against Scotland in the summer? Think it’s fair to say we caught them by surprise there and they might have some special attention for Hamilton and Strokosh in store…

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Post by AsLongAsBut100ofUs Mon Nov 11, 2013 10:05 am

The question as always when playing the Bokke is how to meet their physicality - in Bismark du Plessis, Estebeth, Louw, Alberts and Vermuelan, they have some colossal physical specimens that will smash it up all day long, with ball in hand or in defence. Do you attempt to counter that directly even though it is obvious that Scotland cannot match that physicality, or do you attempt to diffuse that advantage in other ways? I'm all for the latter, which would dictate Scotland playing a wider game than they have done previously when in the South African half, and playing a territorial game when in our own half, with long kicks down field that will make these big guys keep running up and down. Either way, it's going to be painful!!

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Post by R!skysports Mon Nov 11, 2013 10:08 am

What a strange game that was against Japan

I am actually in the belief that this team needs to gel and come together, so not too much swapping for swapping sake, but a few changes in the pack 

If no injuries, and taking into account the Sunday fixture

Ford - out -out - out. A poor display again and can not hook - for a hooker that is criminal - so out and MacArthur in


Strokosch - to be replaced by Barclay and Brown back to 6 - sorry the two 6's does not work. the odd great game from Strokosch is not enough. Barclay made an immediate difference in the breakdown when he came on. Brown is our best 6 - so lets been simple and put them in the position they should be in - Strokosch a good bench option



Scotland: 
Maitland - one of our best players - deserves to stay at 15 - think Hogg will have a fight to get his position back
Seymour, - played well, but needs to watch the pacy players - 
de Luca, - Felt NDL did enough to postpone the final judgement - but against a team like SA it will be a real test - can he remain calm and no brain farts
Scott, - again a good performance, especially in the second half - hope his hand is ok
Lamont; -  was solid and played well
Jackson, - mixed bag, but some good off loads and passes so deserves to remain
Laidlaw, - played ok - not his best - but should stay on
Denton, - starting to get his swagger back
Brown (capt), - still one of out best - but is a 6
Barclay, - snipe little man snipe
Kellock, - actually thought he played ok - but maybe Gray on
Swinson, - Boom - :-)
Dickinson, - Held up well - BIG game this week
MacArthur, - Played well and can do things a hooker should be able - hook and throw
Ryan Grant. - .......dizzy
Replacements: Taylor; Weir, Pyrgos, Barclay, Gray, Cross, Ford, .Strokosch

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Post by VietGwentRevisited Mon Nov 11, 2013 10:09 am

Scotland need the rain to pour and the wind to blow.

I do wonder if SA will be using their squad and rotating players.

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Post by RuggerRadge2611 Mon Nov 11, 2013 10:12 am

AsLongAsBut100ofUs wrote:The question as always when playing the Bokke is how to meet their physicality - in Bismark du Plessis, Estebeth, Louw, Alberts and Vermuelan, they have some colossal physical specimens that will smash it up all day long, with ball in hand or in defence.  Do you attempt to counter that directly even though it is obvious that Scotland cannot match that physicality, or do you attempt to diffuse that advantage in other ways?  I'm all for the latter, which would dictate Scotland playing a wider game than they have done previously when in the South African half, and playing a territorial game when in our own half, with long kicks down field that will make these big guys keep running up and down.  Either way, it's going to be painful!!

Braveheart
I agree, endeavour will be more lucrative than Gatland's attempt to match them physically on Saturday.

All the more reason to play a lighter and more Mobile set of forwards and give Barclay a chance to pillage for turnovers after Strokosch or Denton have made the tackles on some of the more monstrous specimens.

I feel to negate their scrum power going for a shorter more technical front row will help, that means leaving Ford on the bench and giving MacArthur a chance. I do feel Hamilton in the 2nd row will be a necessity. Kellock is too meek a player to be effective against South Africa.

I got criticized on the old thread before it got locked down for dropping Lamont with people Sensible saying we need his power. His power is pretty insignificant next to the power of some of those South African guys. Guile will win the day rather than power.

Under Asbo's suggestion playing Weir for his territorial game might not be a bad Idea but can he get our backs moving as effectively as Jackson did for spells in the Japan game?
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Post by RuggerRadge2611 Mon Nov 11, 2013 10:13 am

VietGwentRevisited wrote:Scotland need the rain to pour and the wind to blow.

I do wonder if SA will be using their squad and rotating players.
Do you really think that will help us against that physical bunch? I seriously doubt it. It'll help against the likes of Australia but not against this South African side.

A mud wrestle against them will be very bad for Scotland.

I think we might have a chance un picking them with guile, I know we do not have the power to smash the front door down.
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Post by VietGwentRevisited Mon Nov 11, 2013 10:18 am

I think that in true "Scottish" conditions, Scotland can harry, hassle and (something else beginning with H) better than any one. Gavin Hastings suggestion of kick and chase may be the best option as I cannot see Scotland winning by flair.

Against australia - well I do believe you can out-muscle them.

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Post by Biltong Mon Nov 11, 2013 10:19 am

RDW_Scotland wrote:Biltong,

What do you think the SA squad’s mindset will be after the game against Scotland in the summer? Think it’s fair to say we caught them by surprise there and they might have some special attention for Hamilton and Strokosh in store…
RDW remember we brought in Richie Gray to assist us at the breakdown, the players have spoken very highly of his influence and approach to the breakdown.

Meyer after that game openly admitted that he learnt a lot from the manner in which Strockosh and the like schooled us in the breakdowns, I think we will be much better prepared.

Louw is back for this match (He wasn't there against Scotland in June)

I have to say I think our pack is starting to settle and is looking ominous.

As someone else remarked earlier in the thread, Willem, Louw, Etzebeth, Bismarck and Vermeulen are all brutal, but it is the manner in which they hunst together that is beginning to give me some belief in them.

Hoepfully Pieter Steph du Toit will come in for this match, he is a good as Etzebeth, but more in control.

I think Malherbe did well in the scrums this weekend, apart from the pitch that made it very difficult to stay up.

Our backline has a few old hands that came back, Habana is on fire at the moment, Jean de Villiers is in very good nick, I hope Willie le Roux gets to play against Scotland, and hopefully Lambie gets another shot at 10 for 80 minutes.

I am a little concerned about Jaque Fourie and JP, they seemed a bit quiet on the weekend.
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Post by fa0019 Mon Nov 11, 2013 10:25 am

Fourie looked a little shell shocked at times, mainly because he has played 3rd class rugby for the last 2 years, the pace is simply a different class. It will take him a little to get back to speed but his little touch for the 3rd try showed his class... I'd start him vs. Scotland and by the French game he will be ready.

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Post by tigertattie Mon Nov 11, 2013 10:28 am

JP was completly missing against Wales. Was very odd

Habanna looked dangerous though. The way he skinned George North was actually comical!

For Scotland to have a chance on Sunday we will need to do something we've not done in a long time against a higher rated team! Keep the ball

If we give SA more than 50% of possession, then we will lose. It is as simple as that. If we kick kick kick all day then I fear for the scoreline!
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Post by RuggerRadge2611 Mon Nov 11, 2013 10:31 am

tigertattie wrote:JP was completly missing against Wales. Was very odd

Habanna looked dangerous though.  The way he skinned George North was actually comical!

For Scotland to have a chance on Sunday we will need to do something we've not done in a long time against a higher rated team! Keep the ball

If we give SA more than 50% of possession, then we will lose.  It is as simple as that.  If we kick kick kick all day then I fear for the scoreline!
I also fear trying to play too much rugby in our half. One turnover and then the ball gets passed to someone like Alberts, Louw, Du Plessis, Etzebeth or any of the other monsters and they start rampaging around our disorganised backline we'll leak tries.

Wales IMO did very, very well not to concede more. When those lads get a head of steam I reckon outside of the pack we'll struggle to contain them.
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Post by Captain_Sensible Mon Nov 11, 2013 10:35 am

RuggerRadge2611 wrote:
AsLongAsBut100ofUs wrote:The question as always when playing the Bokke is how to meet their physicality - in Bismark du Plessis, Estebeth, Louw, Alberts and Vermuelan, they have some colossal physical specimens that will smash it up all day long, with ball in hand or in defence.  Do you attempt to counter that directly even though it is obvious that Scotland cannot match that physicality, or do you attempt to diffuse that advantage in other ways?  I'm all for the latter, which would dictate Scotland playing a wider game than they have done previously when in the South African half, and playing a territorial game when in our own half, with long kicks down field that will make these big guys keep running up and down.  Either way, it's going to be painful!!

Braveheart
I got criticized on the old thread before it got locked down for dropping Lamont with people Sensible saying we need his power. His power is pretty insignificant next to the power of some of those South African guys. Guile will win the day rather than power.

In my experience, guile struggles in defence against power, and guile needs gaps to exploit that power creates. There has to be a balance.

I know you're not going to think highly of Lamont whatever he does, but go back and look at the games Scotland played in the summer, and the one vs Japan. He's been huge in all of them, in attack and defence. Plus, Maitland looked excellent at fullback against Japan. We should keep him there.

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Post by jimmyinthewell68 Mon Nov 11, 2013 10:36 am

as a neutral i can actually sit down and enjoy watching south Africa rather then be enraged at Wales . good luck Scotland lets hope you give them a better game . run around them dont look for contact;) 


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Post by fa0019 Mon Nov 11, 2013 10:37 am

I'd like to see Strokosch and Barclay start. This bok side is still a little vunerable at the breakdown. Meyer will surely experiment a little with his XV too so we won't be playing the full squad.

I reckon it could be

Beast, Strauss, Coenie, Bakkies, Flip, Kolisi, Coetzee, Vermeulen, Pienaar, Lambie, Habana, Serfontein, Engelbrecht/Fourie, Aplon, Kirchner.

If the boks bring a side such as this I think we have a decent chance of making a game of it. All we need is gales.

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Post by RuggerRadge2611 Mon Nov 11, 2013 10:43 am

Captain_Sensible wrote:
RuggerRadge2611 wrote:
AsLongAsBut100ofUs wrote:The question as always when playing the Bokke is how to meet their physicality - in Bismark du Plessis, Estebeth, Louw, Alberts and Vermuelan, they have some colossal physical specimens that will smash it up all day long, with ball in hand or in defence.  Do you attempt to counter that directly even though it is obvious that Scotland cannot match that physicality, or do you attempt to diffuse that advantage in other ways?  I'm all for the latter, which would dictate Scotland playing a wider game than they have done previously when in the South African half, and playing a territorial game when in our own half, with long kicks down field that will make these big guys keep running up and down.  Either way, it's going to be painful!!

Braveheart
I got criticized on the old thread before it got locked down for dropping Lamont with people Sensible saying we need his power. His power is pretty insignificant next to the power of some of those South African guys. Guile will win the day rather than power.

In my experience, guile struggles in defence against power, and guile needs gaps to exploit that power creates. There has to be a balance.

I know you're not going to think highly of Lamont whatever he does, but go back and look at the games Scotland played in the summer, and the one vs Japan. He's been huge in all of them, in attack and defence. Plus, Maitland looked excellent at fullback against Japan. We should keep him there.
You couldn't be more wrong about my opinions of Lamont. I think he is a very good player but noone can say with a straight face that he has the pace of a Winger these days.

In addition he won't be strong enough in the power department to take these South Africans head on. Ergo I would abandon the power game and pick someone who can rely on something other than physicality.

North is a heck of a lot stronger and faster than Lamont and he got ripped to shreds on Saturday.

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Post by MMaaxx Mon Nov 11, 2013 10:47 am

After that last match against Scotland I do not see HM dropping Louw. Perhaps the most obvious missing element to me with the SA touring squad is that there is no like for like Louw replacement. Oddly it has hardly been mnetioned.

At most I predict 5 changes with Strauss, Bakkies (for Eben), Pienaar, Kirchner (Lambie to 10), le roux (for habanna) coming in

Perhaps Guthro might start ahead of Beast. PSDT will be blooded off the bench this tour and probably only be in the starting 15 for June internationals next year.


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Post by fa0019 Mon Nov 11, 2013 10:47 am

Lamont will be exploited at wing... but doesn't he play 13 these days? I thought he is a decent centre and offers a lot of grunt we don't have in the backline.

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Post by R!skysports Mon Nov 11, 2013 10:48 am

I would not bring in Hamilton for this - I do not think he has the power any more and he is a gnats testicle away from a yellow card and you can bet your bottom dollar that the SA will aim to wind him up

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Post by fa0019 Mon Nov 11, 2013 10:49 am

MMaaxx wrote:After that last match against Scotland I do not see HM dropping Louw. Perhaps the most obvious missing element to me with the SA touring squad is that there is no like for like Louw replacement. Oddly it has hardly been mnetioned.

At most I predict 5 changes with Strauss, Bakkies (for Eben), Pienaar, Kirchner (Lambie to 10), le roux (for habanna) coming in

Perhaps Guthro might start ahead of Beast. PSDT will be blooded off the bench this tour and probably only be in the starting 15 for June internationals next year.

I agree but Meyer has said that he wants to test out players for the RWC. Can't just rely on 15 players all the time. His 2nd choice openside needs game time. To win a world cup you need a squad of 30+ players and probably 50 genuine players to choose from.

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Post by RuggerRadge2611 Mon Nov 11, 2013 10:50 am

fa0019 wrote:Lamont will be exploited at wing... but doesn't he play 13 these days? I thought he is a decent centre and offers a lot of grunt we don't have in the backline.
If he plays at 13 our wingers and full back might as well bring deck chairs and a good novel when in attack.

Lamont is not a centre, in any shape or form.

Furthermore Lamont's "grunt" just won't be enough in the face if the physicality that South Africa will bring.
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Post by Captain_Sensible Mon Nov 11, 2013 10:51 am

RuggerRadge2611 wrote:
Captain_Sensible wrote:
RuggerRadge2611 wrote:
AsLongAsBut100ofUs wrote:The question as always when playing the Bokke is how to meet their physicality - in Bismark du Plessis, Estebeth, Louw, Alberts and Vermuelan, they have some colossal physical specimens that will smash it up all day long, with ball in hand or in defence.  Do you attempt to counter that directly even though it is obvious that Scotland cannot match that physicality, or do you attempt to diffuse that advantage in other ways?  I'm all for the latter, which would dictate Scotland playing a wider game than they have done previously when in the South African half, and playing a territorial game when in our own half, with long kicks down field that will make these big guys keep running up and down.  Either way, it's going to be painful!!

Braveheart
I got criticized on the old thread before it got locked down for dropping Lamont with people Sensible saying we need his power. His power is pretty insignificant next to the power of some of those South African guys. Guile will win the day rather than power.

In my experience, guile struggles in defence against power, and guile needs gaps to exploit that power creates. There has to be a balance.

I know you're not going to think highly of Lamont whatever he does, but go back and look at the games Scotland played in the summer, and the one vs Japan. He's been huge in all of them, in attack and defence. Plus, Maitland looked excellent at fullback against Japan. We should keep him there.
You couldn't be more wrong about my opinions of Lamont. I think he is a very good player but noone can say with a straight face that he has the pace of a Winger these days.

In addition he won't be strong enough in the power department to take these South Africans head on. Ergo I would abandon the power game and pick someone who can rely on something other than physicality.

North is a heck of a lot stronger and faster than Lamont and he got ripped to shreds on Saturday.

Well, he seemed pretty quick running down the Japanese fullback in the last five minutes of the game on Saturday. Lamont's never had Habana-like pace, but he's not slow either.

What you're saying makes no sense, if I'm honest. You're significantly weakening one position (FB), in order to shift the incumbent to wing and replace a guy who has been one of Scotland's best players in their last four Tests.

I'm baffled.

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Post by R!skysports Mon Nov 11, 2013 10:52 am

I also get a little baffled that anyone would consider dropping Brown for Stroks

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Post by Captain_Sensible Mon Nov 11, 2013 10:53 am

Riskysports wrote:I also get a little baffled that anyone would consider dropping Brown for Stroks
Me too. Brown, Barclay, Denton front row will do me, with Stroks on the bench.

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Post by RuggerRadge2611 Mon Nov 11, 2013 10:57 am

Captain_Sensible wrote:Well, he seemed pretty quick running down the Japanese fullback in the last five minutes of the game on Saturday. Lamont's never had Habana-like pace, but he's not slow either.

What you're saying makes no sense, if I'm honest. You're significantly weakening one position (FB), in order to shift the incumbent to wing and replace a guy who has been one of Scotland's best players in their last four Tests.

I'm baffled.
George North is the sort of winger we all wish Lamont could be. Stronger, Faster, fitter and more skillful. North was exposed a number of times on Saturday.

Lamont is slower, not as strong and doesn't have the skills of North, and somehow he must start on Sunday for us? He is a good player still and IMO can still contribute to Scottish rugby. To pick him for his "power" against South Africa is like taking a knife to a nuke fight. IMO we need to bring something else to try and unpick the south african defence. He was solid, but solidity is not what we need against South Africa, we either need to use our power to batter them into submission (good luck with that one, if you saw what happened to Wales you wouldn't even consider this an option) or you try and go around them in the way guys like Maitland, Tonks or Seymore can do.

That's just my opinion anyway.

Riskysports wrote:I would not bring in Hamilton for this - I do not think he has the power any more and he is a gnats testicle away from a yellow card and you can bet your bottom dollar that the SA will aim to wind him up
Suggesting Gray then? Kellock is just too insipid to play in this particular game.
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Post by fa0019 Mon Nov 11, 2013 11:00 am

I'd love to see Hamilton play in fact. Gets stick for being an idiot now and again but he's a real pest and a good lineout operator too. SA didn't like the physical confrontation that he brought last time. He's needed.

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Post by RuggerRadge2611 Mon Nov 11, 2013 11:03 am

Captain_Sensible wrote:
Riskysports wrote:I also get a little baffled that anyone would consider dropping Brown for Stroks
Me too. Brown, Barclay, Denton front row will do me, with Stroks on the bench.
Stroks was awesome against SA in the summer. Whilst his tackling record is probably comparable to Brown's his tackling style is a bit more fearsome.
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Post by R!skysports Mon Nov 11, 2013 11:08 am

fa0019 wrote:I'd love to see Hamilton play in fact. Gets stick for being an idiot now and again but he's a real pest and a good lineout operator too. SA didn't like the physical confrontation that he brought last time. He's needed.
Then he got send off and that was the end of the game for us...

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Post by R!skysports Mon Nov 11, 2013 11:10 am

RuggerRadge2611 wrote:
Captain_Sensible wrote:
Riskysports wrote:I also get a little baffled that anyone would consider dropping Brown for Stroks
Me too. Brown, Barclay, Denton front row will do me, with Stroks on the bench.
Stroks was awesome against SA in the summer. Whilst his tackling record is probably comparable to Brown's his tackling style is a bit more fearsome once in a very long while.
Brown offers more around the park. Better link play, better ruck play, better ball stealing and leadership - in my mind one of the easiest selection choices to be made - Brown has played better or to the same level as Stock consistently while playing out of position

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Post by Captain_Sensible Mon Nov 11, 2013 11:11 am

RuggerRadge2611 wrote:
Captain_Sensible wrote:Well, he seemed pretty quick running down the Japanese fullback in the last five minutes of the game on Saturday. Lamont's never had Habana-like pace, but he's not slow either.

What you're saying makes no sense, if I'm honest. You're significantly weakening one position (FB), in order to shift the incumbent to wing and replace a guy who has been one of Scotland's best players in their last four Tests.

I'm baffled.
George North is the sort of winger we all wish Lamont could be. Stronger, Faster, fitter and more skillful. North was exposed a number of times on Saturday.

Lamont is slower, not as strong and doesn't have the skills of North, and somehow he must start on Sunday for us? He is a good player still and IMO can still contribute to Scottish rugby. To pick him for his "power" against South Africa is like taking a knife to a nuke fight. IMO we need to bring something else to try and unpick the south african defence. He was solid, but solidity is not what we need against South Africa, we either need to use our power to batter them into submission (good luck with that one, if you saw what happened to Wales you wouldn't even consider this an option) or you try and go around them in the way guys like Maitland, Tonks or Seymore can do.

That's just my opinion anyway.
Has Tonks ever shown an ability to unpick a Test-standard defence? He played once in the summer against Samoa, and was pretty poor. I seem to remember Lamont playing very well against South Africa. He's our form wing at the moment, and Maitland is our form full back. I'd rather not change that because of some confusing talk about nuke and knife fights.

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Post by R!skysports Mon Nov 11, 2013 11:14 am

In my mind, I would keep Lamont. Since moving back to wing, he has started to look like the player he was.

he does create the holes, he does worry defences and he does make the space for other players to use. We need someone to tie in defences to allow the dancing feet to flutter

Moving Maitland away from full back to bring in an untested international full back is a little worrying to me

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Post by RDW Mon Nov 11, 2013 11:23 am

I would keep the same back 3, and still think Lamont has it at this level. We really do need his physicality - these are the games he is well suited for.

I also like Maitland at 15 - he is able to get involved a lot more. There's no way Tonks should be thrown in for this one.

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Post by RuggerRadge2611 Mon Nov 11, 2013 11:23 am

Captain_Sensible wrote:
RuggerRadge2611 wrote:
Captain_Sensible wrote:Well, he seemed pretty quick running down the Japanese fullback in the last five minutes of the game on Saturday. Lamont's never had Habana-like pace, but he's not slow either.

What you're saying makes no sense, if I'm honest. You're significantly weakening one position (FB), in order to shift the incumbent to wing and replace a guy who has been one of Scotland's best players in their last four Tests.

I'm baffled.
George North is the sort of winger we all wish Lamont could be. Stronger, Faster, fitter and more skillful. North was exposed a number of times on Saturday.

Lamont is slower, not as strong and doesn't have the skills of North, and somehow he must start on Sunday for us? He is a good player still and IMO can still contribute to Scottish rugby. To pick him for his "power" against South Africa is like taking a knife to a nuke fight. IMO we need to bring something else to try and unpick the south african defence. He was solid, but solidity is not what we need against South Africa, we either need to use our power to batter them into submission (good luck with that one, if you saw what happened to Wales you wouldn't even consider this an option) or you try and go around them in the way guys like Maitland, Tonks or Seymore can do.

That's just my opinion anyway.
Has Tonks ever shown an ability to unpick a Test-standard defence? He played once in the summer against Samoa, and was pretty poor. I seem to remember Lamont playing very well against South Africa. He's our form wing at the moment, and Maitland is our form full back. I'd rather not change that because of some confusing talk about nuke and knife fights.
My opinions are irelevant. I fully expect Lamont to start.

Tonks hasn't shown any ability to unpick a test standard defence, agreed. However neither has Lamont. Lamont relies on a power game that I think will be pretty useless against a South Africa side that absorbed the Welsh power game with little or no physical effect on them whilst guys like Williams, Davies and Jones were all carried off in the first half. When Last I checked the Welsh power game was much more effective than ours. Which brings me back to Lamont. He is a blunt instrument, do we have the power to wield that blunt instrument with any effect against South Africa?

It sucks that Hogg and Visser are injured. Hogg in particular I think when the play breaks up could cause South Africa problems. Tonks has good broken field running potential and is a similar player to Hogg in that regard. Visser too can do more than charge straight at the opposition, but hand on my heart his feeble defensive abilities would have made me question his involvement this weekend even if he was fit.

As for the Brown Strokosch debate, I'm unfussy. Both have been playing well and are playing well. Toss a coin if you like to choose between them, but I reckon Barclay should start, although I fully expect to see Brown and Strokosch start.
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Post by reallybored Mon Nov 11, 2013 11:26 am

Got to play territory against Bokke and keep them away from our 22 or else they’ll just batter us into submission.  Can’t match them physically, so will need to stop their momentum quickly and look to force turn-overs.

Key selection is the back-row and fly-half, I’d make a couple changes to the team that played Japan.

6 – Harley
7 – Barclay
8 – Brown

10 - Weir

20 – Denton
22 - Jackson

Need a genuine open-side in the team, best way to stop their momentum is to slow and try steal their ball hence the inclusion of Barclay.  Harley in ahead of Strokosch because of his scything tackling and he’s great at making a nuisance of himself around the break-down, plus he’s not scared to put his head in the wrong places.  Brown starts ahead of Denton because he’s more useful in defence, obviously we’ll have less going forward for first 60 but more chance of staying in touch.

Weir ahead of Jackson because of his kicking from hand, we need to stay in their half and Weir is more likely to provide that.

Grant, Ford, Cross, Swinson, Gray, Harley, Barclay, Brown, Laidlaw, Weir, Seymour, Scott, De Luca, Lamont, Maitland

MacArthur, Welsh, Low, Hamilton, Denton, Cusiter, Jackson, Taylor

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Post by Captain_Sensible Mon Nov 11, 2013 11:30 am

reallybored wrote:Got to play territory against Bokke and keep them away from our 22 or else they’ll just batter us into submission.  Can’t match them physically, so will need to stop their momentum quickly and look to force turn-overs.

Key selection is the back-row and fly-half, I’d make a couple changes to the team that played Japan.

6 – Harley
7 – Barclay
8 – Brown

10 - Weir

20 – Denton
22 - Jackson

Need a genuine open-side in the team, best way to stop their momentum is to slow and try steal their ball hence the inclusion of Barclay.  Harley in ahead of Strokosch because of his scything tackling and he’s great at making a nuisance of himself around the break-down, plus he’s not scared to put his head in the wrong places.  Brown starts ahead of Denton because he’s more useful in defence, obviously we’ll have less going forward for first 60 but more chance of staying in touch.

Weir ahead of Jackson because of his kicking from hand, we need to stay in their half and Weir is more likely to provide that.

Grant, Ford, Cross, Swinson, Gray, Harley, Barclay, Brown, Laidlaw, Weir, Seymour, Scott, De Luca, Lamont, Maitland

MacArthur, Welsh, Low, Hamilton, Denton, Cusiter, Jackson, Taylor
There's no way we should drop Denton. He's such a big carrier for us. I'm sick of this attitude where we run out onto the pitch, hope to keep in touch in the first hour and see what happens. It's so bloody defeatist. We need to go out and attack SA from the first minute, like we did in the summer.

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Post by RuggerRadge2611 Mon Nov 11, 2013 11:35 am

Captain_Sensible wrote:
reallybored wrote:Got to play territory against Bokke and keep them away from our 22 or else they’ll just batter us into submission.  Can’t match them physically, so will need to stop their momentum quickly and look to force turn-overs.

Key selection is the back-row and fly-half, I’d make a couple changes to the team that played Japan.

6 – Harley
7 – Barclay
8 – Brown

10 - Weir

20 – Denton
22 - Jackson

Need a genuine open-side in the team, best way to stop their momentum is to slow and try steal their ball hence the inclusion of Barclay.  Harley in ahead of Strokosch because of his scything tackling and he’s great at making a nuisance of himself around the break-down, plus he’s not scared to put his head in the wrong places.  Brown starts ahead of Denton because he’s more useful in defence, obviously we’ll have less going forward for first 60 but more chance of staying in touch.

Weir ahead of Jackson because of his kicking from hand, we need to stay in their half and Weir is more likely to provide that.

Grant, Ford, Cross, Swinson, Gray, Harley, Barclay, Brown, Laidlaw, Weir, Seymour, Scott, De Luca, Lamont, Maitland

MacArthur, Welsh, Low, Hamilton, Denton, Cusiter, Jackson, Taylor
There's no way we should drop Denton. He's such a big carrier for us. I'm sick of this attitude where we run out onto the pitch, hope to keep in touch in the first hour and see what happens. It's so bloody defeatist. We need to go out and attack SA from the first minute, like we did in the summer.
On this we are in complete agreement. Dropping Denton would be a massive mistake. In truth I want to see MacArthur start, however if I were tempted to pick Ford it would be purely to have another big ball Carrier. It could be a long day for Denton and Swinson if they are expected to do the bulk of the carrying.
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Post by BigGee Mon Nov 11, 2013 11:37 am

Riskysports wrote:
RuggerRadge2611 wrote:
Captain_Sensible wrote:
Riskysports wrote:I also get a little baffled that anyone would consider dropping Brown for Stroks
Me too. Brown, Barclay, Denton front row will do me, with Stroks on the bench.
Stroks was awesome against SA in the summer. Whilst his tackling record is probably comparable to Brown's his tackling style is a bit more fearsome once in a very long while.
Brown offers more around the park. Better link play, better ruck play, better ball stealing and leadership - in my mind one of the easiest selection choices to be made - Brown has played better or to the same level as Stock consistently while playing out of position
Brown is the captain and was not injured as far as we know. I would say he is the one player we know will play. There are effectively only two other back row places available. The options are as follows

1. Play the two blind side options, Stroks and Brown, as in the last game, with Denton the most likely at no.8 but Beattie as an option. Barclay likely to be on the bench as probably not the game to blood Fusaro.

2. Brown moves to no.8 and play Stroks and Barclay on the flanks. Denton most likely on the bench for impact.

3. Barclay comes in as open side and make Barclay and Denton to make up the set. Strokosch on the bench.

The purest option is clearly the third, but we are playing the most physical team on earth and tackling is going to be a massive feature of this game so you can see the temptation of sticking with the first option. I think our best chance of winning the game though is to win some ball and score some tries. Kicking some points and trying to hold the line is just not going to work as it might do against Australia.

I will stick with the number three. Whoever comes off the bench in the back row in this game will play a big part in it and with the predicted level of attrition may well be on sooner than later

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Post by nickj Mon Nov 11, 2013 12:33 pm

I think we'll see something like this:

Grant
Ford
Cross
Hamilton
Swinson
Brown
Fusaro
Denton
Laidlaw
Jackson
Seymour
Taylor
De Luca
Lamont
Maitland

Dickinson
MacArthur
Welsh
Gray Snr
Harley or Strokosh
Pygos
Weir
Bennett

I think Johnson will throw a few curve balls for this one. He keeps on talking about giving guys a chance, so I think we could see Fusaro come in. Possibly even Bennett? I would also imagine Taylor is the preferred cover at 12.

I'd definitely bring Big Jim in. Cross seems to be rated, even if he's not played much for Edinburgh and I'd like to see Harley given some recognition for his form this year.

As someone said earlier, I wouldn't be surprised if we saw Kieran Low or Blair Cowan at some point too, but that really would be a curve ball and particularly galling for old Stroks.

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Post by Solid8 Mon Nov 11, 2013 1:06 pm

Personally I think that the key to this match is going to be having subs that are capable of playing multiple positions there will be injuries and it is difficult to tell where those injuries will come so we need players who can cover multiple positions well.  I think that Kieran Low and Blair Cowan would therefore be good subs for this match as two players allow you to cover the entire back 5 of the pack

As far as the starting XV goes Ford MUST be on the bench, if he cannot get his foot up to hook against the Japanese scrum he will not be able to do so against the Saffas.  If the ball stalls in the tunnel like it did at the weekend we will lose it against the head and provide too big an opportunity for their 3/4 to really run at us.  What MacArthur lacks in terms of stature and ability to be a strike runner he makes up for in work rate, also being that much smaller could possibly help him as it will make it easier for the props to give him space to work in the scrum.  I think that Hamilton is a big nono - he cost us our momentum in the summer and is too easily wound up he may as well wonder round the pitch with a large target painted on his forhead because that is exactly what he will be.  I would go with a starting 2nd row of Gray Snr and Swinson if Swinson's knock means that he is not available I would start with an all Gray 2nd row a first cap against the boks is a huge task but I believe that Gray Jnr is up to it.  My selection would be:

Grant
MacArthur
Cross
Gray Snr
Swinson (Gray Jnr if unfit)
Brown
Barclay
Denton
Laidlaw
Jackson
Seymour
Scott (Taylor if unfit)
Bennett
Lamont
Maitland

Dickinson
Ford
Welsh
Low
Cowan
Cuisiter
Weir
Taylor (Evans if Scott unfit(I know.... The squashed goblin but from what I've seen he's played well for his club this season and offers a certain amount of flexibility))


Last edited by Solid8 on Mon Nov 11, 2013 1:17 pm; edited 1 time in total

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Post by AsLongAsBut100ofUs Mon Nov 11, 2013 1:13 pm

Solid8 wrote:Personally I think that the key to this match is going to be having subs that are capable of playing multiple positions there will be injuries and it is difficult to tell where those injuries will come so we need players who can cover multiple positions well.  I think that Kieran Low and Blair Cowan would therefore be good subs for this match as two players allow you to cover the entire back 5 of the pack

As far as the starting XV goes Ford MUST be on the bench, if he cannot get his foot up to hook against the Japanese scrum he will not be able to do so against the Saffas.  If the ball stalls in the tunnel like it did at the weekend we will lose it against the head and provide too big an opportunity for their 3/4 to really run at us.  What MacArthur lacks in terms of stature and ability to be a strike runner he makes up for in work rate, also being that much smaller could possibly help him as it will make it easier for the props to give him space to work in the scrum.  I think that Hamilton is a big nono - he cost us our momentum in the summer and is too easily wound up he may as well wonder round the pitch with a large target painted on his forhead because that is exactly what he will be.  I would go with a starting 2nd row of Gray Snr and Swinson if Swinson's knock means that he is not available I would start with an all Gray front row a first cap against the boks is a huge task but I believe that Gray Jnr is up to it.  My selection would be:

Grant
MacArthur
Cross
Gray Snr
Swinson (Grey Jnr if unfit)
Brown
Barclay
Denton
Laidlaw
Jackson
Seymour
Scott (Taylor if unfit)
Bennett
Lamont
Maitland

Dickinson
Ford
Welsh
Low
Cowan
Cuisiter
Weir
Taylor (Evans if Scott unfit(I know.... The squashed goblin but from what I've seen he's played well for his club this season and offers a certain amount of flexibility))
Possibly just wearing grey, as in some sort of disguise, do you mean Solid?!

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Post by Solid8 Mon Nov 11, 2013 1:16 pm

Ha! possibly. Doh 

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Post by Solid8 Mon Nov 11, 2013 1:16 pm

I think you knew what I meant though.

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Post by funnyExiledScot Mon Nov 11, 2013 2:08 pm

There seems to be a huge divergence of opinion amongst Scots fans as to selection for this match, and I can't quite figure out if this is good or bad. We seem to have plenty options, I guess the questions is whether they are good ones or not.

On the Lamont issue I sit somewhere between CS and Radge. I do worry about his lack of acceleration (once he gets going I think his pace is ok), and we saw in the Japan game what raw speed can do. I'd still pick him though, purely because I don't like any of the alternatives better, and I like Maitland's counter-attacking from 15.

I think the injury questions will be key. We are significantly weakened without Grant, Swinson and Scott.

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Post by R!skysports Mon Nov 11, 2013 2:21 pm

My thoughts are quite simple (like me)

keep the team together as much as possible and only change if needed and on form

ford out
Hamilton not on
Barclay start, with Brown at 6


That is my main decisions

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Post by RDW Mon Nov 11, 2013 2:24 pm

funnyExiledScot wrote:There seems to be a huge divergence of opinion amongst Scots fans as to selection for this match, and I can't quite figure out if this is good or bad. We seem to have plenty options, I guess the questions is whether they are good ones or not.

On the Lamont issue I sit somewhere between CS and Radge. I do worry about his lack of acceleration (once he gets going I think his pace is ok), and we saw in the Japan game what raw speed can do. I'd still pick him though, purely because I don't like any of the alternatives better, and I like Maitland's counter-attacking from 15.

I think the injury questions will be key. We are significantly weakened without Grant, Swinson and Scott.
To be honest I have my opinions on the starting team, but I wouldn't be overly disappointed if others came in instead. As long as he doesn't pick Max Evans at 13 and the young London Irish chap isn't thrown straight in against the Saffers I won't be too disappointed.

Backrow especially - pretty much any combination would do a decent job I think, and it is positive that we have such dilemmas there.

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Post by R!skysports Mon Nov 11, 2013 2:27 pm

RDW_Scotland wrote:
funnyExiledScot wrote:There seems to be a huge divergence of opinion amongst Scots fans as to selection for this match, and I can't quite figure out if this is good or bad. We seem to have plenty options, I guess the questions is whether they are good ones or not.

On the Lamont issue I sit somewhere between CS and Radge. I do worry about his lack of acceleration (once he gets going I think his pace is ok), and we saw in the Japan game what raw speed can do. I'd still pick him though, purely because I don't like any of the alternatives better, and I like Maitland's counter-attacking from 15.

I think the injury questions will be key. We are significantly weakened without Grant, Swinson and Scott.
To be honest I have my opinions on the starting team, but I wouldn't be overly disappointed if others came in instead.  As long as he doesn't pick Max Evans at 13 and the young London Irish chap isn't thrown straight in against the Saffers I won't be too disappointed.

Backrow especially - pretty much any combination would do a decent job I think, and it is positive that we have such dilemmas there.
If Scott is not injured, should we move him to 13...........................









Only joking, I believe he is a 12 Whistle

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Post by funnyExiledScot Mon Nov 11, 2013 2:34 pm

Risky - I'd brace yourself for a Taylor/Lamont centre combination. If Scott is out I can see SJ going with something like that, with Max Evans out on the wing.

If we do that then Weir should play at 10 so he can thump the leather of the ball manage the game.

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Post by R!skysports Mon Nov 11, 2013 2:58 pm

funnyExiledScot wrote:Risky - I'd brace yourself for a Taylor/Lamont centre combination. If Scott is out I can see SJ going with something like that, with Max Evans out on the wing.

If we do that then Weir should play at 10 so he can thump the leather of the ball manage the game.
Erm 

Well lets just call it pre-season then.....

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