Scotland vs South Africa pre-match buildup.

First topic message reminder :

I thought I would start a Scotland vs South Africa thread, seeing that the other one is filled to the brim and there is a new opponent to focus on.

Scotland had a good game against South Africa with a not a full strength team in June. although I was not enammered with the tactics of Scotlands' tactics at the breakdown during that match, you have to give them Cudo's for their performance.

They scored two well executed tries and had our breakdown I shambles for most of the match.

South Africa learnt a lot from that match and it should stand them in good stead for the upcoming match.

By virtue of the Scottish performance on the weekend I would suggest that they will go into this match feeling better prepared and a bit of a roll. The momentum of a good match is always a positive to have.

It is obviously to early to speculate too much on team selections, but I would expect Scotland to put out their very best for this one.

Heyneke Meyer has been a tad contradictory in his media releases this past week as he first suggested that he will make some changes against Scotland regardless of the result against wales, but after the match he said he isn't going to make too many changes and doesn't believe in resting his best players during a test season, that should happen during the Super Xv and Currie Cup which we all know is a farce.

Morne Steyn had a back spasm during the Welsh encounter and will be assessed later in the week. I would like to see Lambie get another go at ten though.

SA have improved during the past RC and hopefully they can continue to improve.

For some reason we play poorly at Murrayfield, and I am hoping that we show a better performance there than we did in the past decade.

I'll update the thread as more news and team selections become available.

Scotland team announced.

1. Dickinson
2. Ford
3. Low
4. Gray snr
5. Hamiton
6. Strokosch
7. Denton
8. Barclay
9. Laidlaw (c)
10. Jackson
11. Lamont
12. Taylor
13. NDL
14.Seymour
15. Maitland

Replacements

16. Lawson
17. Grant
18. Cross
19. Gray jnr
20. Beattie
21. Cuisiter
22. Weir
23. Evans

funnyExiledScot wrote:Risky - I'd brace yourself for a Taylor/Lamont centre combination. If Scott is out I can see SJ going with something like that, with Max Evans out on the wing.

If we do that then Weir should play at 10 so he can thump the leather of the ball manage the game.

   

I'm still worried about this game!

its annoying. Normally I can say "we are the underdog, no one expects anything, we may catch them on the hop"

Or I can say "we're knickers, really knickers, we'll get humped"

But I'm not able to really call this at all. I think that for all our progress over the last year, we're still gonna get a royal humping from these leviathons!

Predictions: SA to hump us by 20 points then us to avenge this with a good win over the ozzies???

Can I suggest, tattie, that you combine the first and last elements of your two thought processes respectively?

tigertattie wrote:I'm still worried about this game!

its annoying.  Normally I can say "we are the underdog, no one expects anything, we may catch them on the hop"

Or I can say "we're knickers, really knickers, we'll get humped"

But I'm not able to really call this at all.  I think that for all our progress over the last year, we're still gonna get a royal humping from these leviathons!

Predictions: SA to hump us by 20 points then us to avenge this with a good win over the ozzies???

So am I, and I'm a bok supporter! In our last encounter it seemed to me that Scotland out-thought the boks, and nearly had the better of us....

I think we'll struggle to cope with the South African pack if I'm being honest. We've potentially got an industrious and mobile pack, but when the South African pack gets moving there isn't a team in the world that can stop them, and with potentially a front row of Cross, MacArthur and Dickinson I don't hold out much hope. If they play a simple game they'll be extremely effective. Against Wales at one point they produced a devastatingly effective maul with about four forwards. Worrying.

Our only real hope is that they rotate the squad and drop a couple of the world class forwards, and that Morne Steyn has a poor game at 10 with ball in hand (as can happen). I also wouldn't be too unhappy to see Du Preez at 9, as he kicks away a vast amount of ball, and although he does it well, kicking to Sean Maitland is playing to one of our strengths. I don't want Pienaar at 9. He knows how to play us and he knows the conditions.

We need to be bold, as we were in the summer. Wales showed up some weaknesses in the South African line, and when they attacked and run at them outwide, they made some ground. Pick and drives went nowhere though, so lets not have any of this silly lateral stuff shuffling from side to side. If we're doing a pick and drive there needs to be purpose (i.e. the South Africans and fanned out leaving the ruck exposed through the middle), and we MUST commit to what we're doing. If we're going to for a series of offloads then the whole pack must commit - anything tentative and the Saffa pack will destroy us.

FES.

According to Supersport this is the probable Bok team.

1. Gurthro Steenkamp
2. Adriaan Strauss
3. Lourens Driaanse
4. Bakkies Botha
5. Pieter Steph du Toit
6. Louw
7. Alberts
8 Vermeulen
9. Pienaar
10. Lambie
11. Habana
12. Jean de Villiers
13. Jaque Fourie
14. JPPietersen
15. Willie le Roux/Gio Aplon.

Surprised the boks are going with their same backrow. Meyer isn't really developing players in this area. Chaps like Kolisi, Coetzee need to develop and need game time.

Louw, Alberts etc are going to be injured at some point in time.

Hmmm, not wild about Bakkies coming back, and that back row makes me shudder. Any info on the tighthead prop? (i.e. will the prospect of facing Ally Dickinson and possibly later on in the game Murray Low make him cry with laughter or shake with fear?)

I'm also not pleased to see Pienaar as noted above, but Lambie at 10 could work for us. Bags of talent, but a young player still finding his feet as an international 10. The conditions on Sunday could really challenge him.

Given how the Boks have developed this year, and how clinical they were against Wales, I can't see anyting other than a Boks win this year.....sadly.

Has anyone heard anything about Matt Scott's injury? I've been keeping half an eye on the tw@tter feed on the SRU homepage and not a squeak about it. No news has to be good news, right?

RuggerRadge2611 wrote:Lamont is slower, not as strong and doesn't have the skills of North, and somehow he must start on Sunday for us? He is a good player still and IMO can still contribute to Scottish rugby. To pick him for his "power" against South Africa is like taking a knife to a nuke fight. IMO we need to bring something else to try and unpick the south african defence. He was solid, but solidity is not what we need against South Africa, we either need to use our power to batter them into submission (good luck with that one, if you saw what happened to Wales you wouldn't even consider this an option) or you try and go around them in the way guys like Maitland, Tonks or Seymore can do.

That's just my opinion anyway.

I'm so excited - you've no idea how long I've wanted to use a Starship Troopers reference:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FNhYJgDdCu4
(warning: video gets slightly icky, though nothing you wouldn't see at a Glasgow christening.)

You can't see me right now, but I'm grinning maniacally.

I watched The Untouchables last night on Film Four. Much prefer the original reference.

I've heard nothing on the Matt Scott front. Perhaps the injury news was merely to lull De Villiers into a false sense of security. He'll be properly scared when he sees that team sheet.......

THAATSH THE SHACAGOOO WEEE!!

RuggerRadge2611 wrote:Firstly I was always worried about this match. I'm even more worried after seeing the Wales game.

The Scoreline between Wales and SA was a lot closer than the game suggested.

Wales were utterly thumped from the moment the whistle blew. Physically South Africa looked invincible. They carried the ball with power, strength and aggression. Wales had absolutely no answer.

Up front I feel South Africa dealt well with the Welsh breakdown operators and the South African Lineout and Scrum seemed strong too.

Even more worrying is how lethal Pieterson and Habana looked. I feel the Welsh backline is probably a bit better at defending than the Scottish backline so this is another area of concern.

I don't want to seem like a storm crow but I feel we are in big trouble this weekend. South Africa looked like a panzer tank with a jet engine at the weekend and they'll be answering some tough questions of Scotland. I'm not sure how we'll be able to answer them.

I rather agree. Its time to veer back in the direction of doom and gloom

Had a little ponder on this over a pint. I don't think Scotland can out defend the boks, nor beat 'em in a power game. So what we want is a glasgow style aggressive defence. Against Japan we were too passive. We need to do what Glasgow have done well - line speed and nail the tackles.

|But when we have the ball we need to attack for everywhere and move he ball around. Vary of course but give the back 3 licence to run and to counter and use the mobile forwards to support them. Spread the ball wide from set piece and from ruck. Any with variety but with pace and with a high risk high tempo game. We might as well go down with fireworks and its out only way to win. I'd rather we were beat 40 : 25 than 13 : 9 go after 'em. Hunt down their half backs and when we get the ball attack flat out.

TJ wrote:

RuggerRadge2611 wrote:Firstly I was always worried about this match. I'm even more worried after seeing the Wales game.

The Scoreline between Wales and SA was a lot closer than the game suggested.

Wales were utterly thumped from the moment the whistle blew. Physically South Africa looked invincible. They carried the ball with power, strength and aggression. Wales had absolutely no answer.

Up front I feel South Africa dealt well with the Welsh breakdown operators and the South African Lineout and Scrum seemed strong too.

Even more worrying is how lethal Pieterson and Habana looked. I feel the Welsh backline is probably a bit better at defending than the Scottish backline so this is another area of concern.

I don't want to seem like a storm crow but I feel we are in big trouble this weekend. South Africa looked like a panzer tank with a jet engine at the weekend and they'll be answering some tough questions of Scotland. I'm not sure how we'll be able to answer them.

I rather agree.  Its time to veer back in the direction of doom and gloom

I disagree with most of this, the SA power game was nullified and the Welsh pack more than held it's own, Warburton won 5 penalties or so and a few turnovers, Jenkins also did similar. The breakdown was dominated by Wales, you don't own the ball for 68% or so against SA without getting the better at the breakdown.

The Welsh set peice also went ok, Jones was nullified by Jenkins not being able to step up from poor club form, but there was no clear winners or losers here.

Where Wales struggled was the maul, they simply didn't know how to defend it, but it helps when a ref lets the ball carrier let go of the maul, slap a defender away before reattaching hahaha.

Where Wales should have played, and where they didn't because they tried to match SA is moving the ball from the point of contact. They made 2/3 breaks from the forwards just popping the ball inside or out before the defender hit, and there was always room for the break too if they had tried to exploit it more.

Scotland style might suit playing SA, Barclay has to play though, with Brown and Denton probably, and Gray. You need to play Sa's pack wider, use the pivot player a bit and mix up the breakdown plan.

Wales backline was make shift at best, and was exploited by experience, to be honest after Davies went off I could have probably hit holes through Hook (I literally still have no idea what position he was playing) Beck and Williams.

Big ask but I think Scotland are capable, good luck guys.

Scotland style might suit playing SA, Barclay has to play though, with Brown and Denton probably, and Gray. You need to play Sa's pack wider, use the pivot player a bit and mix up the breakdown plan.

I agree with this.  we have to go after them from the word go.   knock 'em back in the tackles and Slow and steal ball and when we get it move it around fast.  Keep 'em guessing

Swinson and Gray as locks along with Barclay Brown and denton.  thats a back five to match anyone.  front row is a worry tho and injuries may rob us of our best backs.  Loosing Scott will be a big blow.  First good centre we have had for a long time.  I fear for Bennett playing SA but it might be his time.  I think all our first choice 3/4s are injured :-(

butterfingers wrote:

TJ wrote:

RuggerRadge2611 wrote:Firstly I was always worried about this match. I'm even more worried after seeing the Wales game.

The Scoreline between Wales and SA was a lot closer than the game suggested.

Wales were utterly thumped from the moment the whistle blew. Physically South Africa looked invincible. They carried the ball with power, strength and aggression. Wales had absolutely no answer.

Up front I feel South Africa dealt well with the Welsh breakdown operators and the South African Lineout and Scrum seemed strong too.

Even more worrying is how lethal Pieterson and Habana looked. I feel the Welsh backline is probably a bit better at defending than the Scottish backline so this is another area of concern.

I don't want to seem like a storm crow but I feel we are in big trouble this weekend. South Africa looked like a panzer tank with a jet engine at the weekend and they'll be answering some tough questions of Scotland. I'm not sure how we'll be able to answer them.

I rather agree.  Its time to veer back in the direction of doom and gloom

I disagree with most of this, the SA power game was nullified and the Welsh pack more than held it's own, Warburton won 5 penalties or so and a few turnovers, Jenkins also did similar. The breakdown was dominated by Wales, you don't own the ball for 68% or so against SA without getting the better at the breakdown.

The Welsh set peice also went ok, Jones was nullified by Jenkins not being able to step up from poor club form, but there was no clear winners or losers here.

Where Wales struggled was the maul, they simply didn't know how to defend it, but it helps when a ref lets the ball carrier let go of the maul, slap a defender away before reattaching hahaha.

Where Wales should have played, and where they didn't because they tried to match SA is moving the ball from the point of contact. They made 2/3 breaks from the forwards just popping the ball inside or out before the defender hit, and there was always room for the break too if they had tried to exploit it more.

Scotland style might suit playing SA, Barclay has to play though, with Brown and Denton probably, and Gray. You need to play Sa's pack wider, use the pivot player a bit and mix up the breakdown plan.

Wales backline was make shift at best, and was exploited by experience, to be honest after Davies went off I could have probably hit holes through Hook (I literally still have no idea what position he was playing) Beck and Williams.

Big ask but I think Scotland are capable, good luck guys.

You'd think the Boks were massively outplayed that they resorted to an illegal maul to win this game  

butterfingers wrote:

TJ wrote:

RuggerRadge2611 wrote:Firstly I was always worried about this match. I'm even more worried after seeing the Wales game.

The Scoreline between Wales and SA was a lot closer than the game suggested.

Wales were utterly thumped from the moment the whistle blew. Physically South Africa looked invincible. They carried the ball with power, strength and aggression. Wales had absolutely no answer.

Up front I feel South Africa dealt well with the Welsh breakdown operators and the South African Lineout and Scrum seemed strong too.

Even more worrying is how lethal Pieterson and Habana looked. I feel the Welsh backline is probably a bit better at defending than the Scottish backline so this is another area of concern.

I don't want to seem like a storm crow but I feel we are in big trouble this weekend. South Africa looked like a panzer tank with a jet engine at the weekend and they'll be answering some tough questions of Scotland. I'm not sure how we'll be able to answer them.

I rather agree.  Its time to veer back in the direction of doom and gloom

I disagree with most of this, the SA power game was nullified and the Welsh pack more than held it's own, Warburton won 5 penalties or so and a few turnovers, Jenkins also did similar. The breakdown was dominated by Wales, you don't own the ball for 68% or so against SA without getting the better at the breakdown.

The Welsh set peice also went ok, Jones was nullified by Jenkins not being able to step up from poor club form, but there was no clear winners or losers here.

Where Wales struggled was the maul, they simply didn't know how to defend it, but it helps when a ref lets the ball carrier let go of the maul, slap a defender away before reattaching hahaha.

Where Wales should have played, and where they didn't because they tried to match SA is moving the ball from the point of contact. They made 2/3 breaks from the forwards just popping the ball inside or out before the defender hit, and there was always room for the break too if they had tried to exploit it more.

Scotland style might suit playing SA, Barclay has to play though, with Brown and Denton probably, and Gray. You need to play Sa's pack wider, use the pivot player a bit and mix up the breakdown plan.

Wales backline was make shift at best, and was exploited by experience, to be honest after Davies went off I could have probably hit holes through Hook (I literally still have no idea what position he was playing) Beck and Williams.

Big ask but I think Scotland are capable, good luck guys.

I could not agree more.

I'm glad I'm not the only one who thinks we stand a chance.

We could have performed better at the weekend and a couple of sloppy mistakes gifted the oppo trys but please look at the positives. Two years ago if we let teams like Japan have tries like that then the team's heads would have dropped and the game would open up, this time we came straight back and scored, while they got within a point of us they never looked like overtaking us IMO our mental strength is growing. We are starting to build real strength in depth and some of the young guys coming through have world beating potential. Uncle Scott has more coaching nouse in his little toe than Hadden and Williams combined I think he will work well with Cotter when he becomes director of rugby and as a skills coach is a great man to oversee the EDP at Edinburgh and Glasow, not to mention youth programmes. We gave the boks a real scare in their own backyard in the summer while missing a number of key players so there is no reason why a full team cannot win at home IF the crowd get behind them.

Ignore what happened with Wales their tactics while effective are highly predictable and play to the saffas strengths. We can adapt our gameplan and have enough good players and good leaders to do so.

For all of the SRUs many faults they have been making more and more good calls of late Glasgow are in a very good place due largely to solid management. Edinburgh has the potential to turn around I believe that they will albeit with fewer SQP than I would like to see but if those guys inspire kids to take up the game and grow player numbers in Scotland it's worth it. After all the false dawns there really is light at the end of the tunnel, if everything comes together this weekend then it will be close and we as fans can really make the difference. Please believe.

 

butterfingers wrote:

TJ wrote:

RuggerRadge2611 wrote:Firstly I was always worried about this match. I'm even more worried after seeing the Wales game.

The Scoreline between Wales and SA was a lot closer than the game suggested.

Wales were utterly thumped from the moment the whistle blew. Physically South Africa looked invincible. They carried the ball with power, strength and aggression. Wales had absolutely no answer.

Up front I feel South Africa dealt well with the Welsh breakdown operators and the South African Lineout and Scrum seemed strong too.

Even more worrying is how lethal Pieterson and Habana looked. I feel the Welsh backline is probably a bit better at defending than the Scottish backline so this is another area of concern.

I don't want to seem like a storm crow but I feel we are in big trouble this weekend. South Africa looked like a panzer tank with a jet engine at the weekend and they'll be answering some tough questions of Scotland. I'm not sure how we'll be able to answer them.

I rather agree.  Its time to veer back in the direction of doom and gloom

I disagree with most of this, the SA power game was nullified and the Welsh pack more than held it's own, Warburton won 5 penalties or so and a few turnovers, Jenkins also did similar. The breakdown was dominated by Wales, you don't own the ball for 68% or so against SA without getting the better at the breakdown.

The Welsh set peice also went ok, Jones was nullified by Jenkins not being able to step up from poor club form, but there was no clear winners or losers here.

Where Wales struggled was the maul, they simply didn't know how to defend it, but it helps when a ref lets the ball carrier let go of the maul, slap a defender away before reattaching hahaha.

Where Wales should have played, and where they didn't because they tried to match SA is moving the ball from the point of contact. They made 2/3 breaks from the forwards just popping the ball inside or out before the defender hit, and there was always room for the break too if they had tried to exploit it more.

Scotland style might suit playing SA, Barclay has to play though, with Brown and Denton probably, and Gray. You need to play Sa's pack wider, use the pivot player a bit and mix up the breakdown plan.

Wales backline was make shift at best, and was exploited by experience, to be honest after Davies went off I could have probably hit holes through Hook (I literally still have no idea what position he was playing) Beck and Williams.

Big ask but I think Scotland are capable, good luck guys.

Think you and I must have watched different game, butterfingers - you're right about the balance of possession (altho ESPN suggests a more even 53%/47% split, which sounds more plausible to me), but I suppose its what you do with the ball when you have it that really tells - and for me South Africa were simply physically indominatable

butterfingers wrote:the SA power game was nullified and the Welsh pack more than held it's own

We got the only tight head of the match.

We stole four of Wales' line outs

We won the collisions

We turned over more of their ball, in fact a significant amount more.

We drove them back and made yards in our forward runs.

We mauled them into the ground, they didn't get one maul rolling.

I think you watched a different game.

Let's not make this turn into a debate about Wales V SA eh!  

Sorry Boss.

Biltong wrote:

butterfingers wrote:the SA power game was nullified and the Welsh pack more than held it's own

We got the only tight head of the match.

We stole four of Wales' line outs

We won the collisions

We turned over more of their ball, in fact a significant amount more.

We drove them back and made yards in our forward runs.

We mauled them into the ground, they didn't get one maul rolling.

I think you watched a different game.

Yep, that's the game I watched, biltong. Is there a danger that the Bokke will over-rotate their squad this weekend do you think?

Biltong wrote:Sorry Boss.

 

AsLongAsBut100ofUs wrote:

Biltong wrote:

butterfingers wrote:the SA power game was nullified and the Welsh pack more than held it's own

We got the only tight head of the match.

We stole four of Wales' line outs

We won the collisions

We turned over more of their ball, in fact a significant amount more.

We drove them back and made yards in our forward runs.

We mauled them into the ground, they didn't get one maul rolling.

I think you watched a different game.

Yep, that's the game I watched, biltong.  Is there a danger that the Bokke will over-rotate their squad this weekend do you think?

Same one I watched too. Blade of grass beneath a steam roller springs to mind...

Possession is only a lukewarm indicator on game dominance. Why, well it depends on what you do with the ball. Some teams will have a ball for 4 phases and make 80 metres, some will keep the ball for 10 and make 10 metres.

SA were/are very clinical. They make hard yards and when its not on they don't hang about.

Wales had a lot of ball but didn't do anything with it, were going for bland recycle after recycle.

Biltong wrote:

butterfingers wrote:the SA power game was nullified and the Welsh pack more than held it's own

We got the only tight head of the match.

We stole four of Wales' line outs

We won the collisions

We turned over more of their ball, in fact a significant amount more.

We drove them back and made yards in our forward runs.

We mauled them into the ground, they didn't get one maul rolling.

I think you watched a different game.

Of course you turned over more, you defended for like 60 minutes!

Winning the lineout and gaining from 2 really poor welsh lineouts aren't the same, Wales lineout was rusty.

I'm not sure you actually read my post, the Welsh pack rocked up to physically match the SA pack, they did, they made far more yards carrying in the tight that SA did, infact significantly more yards according to stats, but similalry thats because they dominated the ball.

Both defences in the tight exchange were ferocious, we saw players smashed on their bums from both sides, we saw great carries from both sides, but from the tight there was not a clear winner. The difference between the teams as I said before were quality backline play vs a powderpuff Welsh backline, Hook was more than useless, Beck isn't international quality, 1/2p rarely sees the wing these days and North was stranded worse than the Titanic on lots of occasions, not to mention whatever RP was doing most of the time.

I'm not disputing the result, SA deserved it but did they dominate up front? no they were matched by a quality Welsh pack who actually broke up the middle of the park regularly through Davies, Jenkins and Alun Jones. All of SA's best and most attacking work was done by the backs.

As I've said the maul was immense, and the Welsh pack had no idea how to stop it, but it is easier to stop when the ball carrier stays attached, Wales tried to sack it twice, but SA are so smart about that, they held the jumper off his feet longer and the supporters comitted to the sack allowing everyone else to stay on their feet.

The jos Scotland will see is using a forward as a pivot, as that defender rushes out to meet him a ball inside or out will pay dividends, I was surprised the Welsh never tried that more, it was very succesfull.

fa0019 wrote:Possession is only a lukewarm indicator on game dominance. Why, well it depends on what you do with the ball. Some teams will have a ball for 4 phases and make 80 metres, some will keep the ball for 10 and make 10 metres.

SA were/are very clinical. They make hard yards and when its not on they don't hang about.

Wales had a lot of ball but didn't do anything with it, were going for bland recycle after recycle.

+100%. This is why Andy Robinson's regime failed, both with England and Scotland. He was obsessed with possession statistics and having "more of the ball", but utterly disinterested in what his sides actually did with it. Remember those endless sideways pick and drives that so defined his regime. We'd lose by 20 points and be told that we did ok, as "we had more of the ball but just didn't convert our chances".

We've been far more adventurous and efficient under Scott Johnson. In fact if I recall correctly we had less of the ball in the wins against Italy and Ireland in the 6 Nations, yet scored more points. I like scoring more points.

funnyExiledScot wrote:

fa0019 wrote:Possession is only a lukewarm indicator on game dominance. Why, well it depends on what you do with the ball. Some teams will have a ball for 4 phases and make 80 metres, some will keep the ball for 10 and make 10 metres.

SA were/are very clinical. They make hard yards and when its not on they don't hang about.

Wales had a lot of ball but didn't do anything with it, were going for bland recycle after recycle.

+100%. This is why Andy Robinson's regime failed, both with England and Scotland. He was obsessed with possession statistics and having "more of the ball", but utterly disinterested in what his sides actually did with it. Remember those endless sideways pick and drives that so defined his regime. We'd lose by 20 points and be told that we did ok, as "we had more of the ball but just didn't convert our chances".

We've been far more adventurous and efficient under Scott Johnson. In fact if I recall correctly we had less of the ball in the wins against Italy and Ireland in the 6 Nations, yet scored more points. I like scoring more points.

Wasn't Robinsons record v SH teams second to none up north though?

RuggerRadge2611 wrote:

AsLongAsBut100ofUs wrote:

Biltong wrote:

butterfingers wrote:the SA power game was nullified and the Welsh pack more than held it's own

We got the only tight head of the match.

We stole four of Wales' line outs

We won the collisions

We turned over more of their ball, in fact a significant amount more.

We drove them back and made yards in our forward runs.

We mauled them into the ground, they didn't get one maul rolling.

I think you watched a different game.

Yep, that's the game I watched, biltong.  Is there a danger that the Bokke will over-rotate their squad this weekend do you think?

Same one I watched too. Blade of grass beneath a steam roller springs to mind...

As much as I dislike them that is pretty disrespectfull to the Welsh pack, I urge you to rewatch the game, that Welsh pack is pretty much the best around on par with the SA pack. That was a thoroughly enjoyable battle, Wales made yards and breaks through the centre, but couldn't handle the maul. SA had too much quality out wide to put away a makeshift Welsh backline.

AsLongAsBut100ofUs wrote:

Biltong wrote:

butterfingers wrote:the SA power game was nullified and the Welsh pack more than held it's own

We got the only tight head of the match.

We stole four of Wales' line outs

We won the collisions

We turned over more of their ball, in fact a significant amount more.

We drove them back and made yards in our forward runs.

We mauled them into the ground, they didn't get one maul rolling.

I think you watched a different game.

Yep, that's the game I watched, biltong.  Is there a danger that the Bokke will over-rotate their squad this weekend do you think?

Meyer said he will make some changes, but within reason.

I think the changes he will make is a new front row, he has rotated Bismarck and Adriaan all season and is likely to do so again. He said Bakkies will play with du Toit at lock, so that will be a new combination. Lambie looks like he will start. We might see Lourens Adriaanse at tight head.

Biltong wrote:

AsLongAsBut100ofUs wrote:

Biltong wrote:

butterfingers wrote:the SA power game was nullified and the Welsh pack more than held it's own

We got the only tight head of the match.

We stole four of Wales' line outs

We won the collisions

We turned over more of their ball, in fact a significant amount more.

We drove them back and made yards in our forward runs.

We mauled them into the ground, they didn't get one maul rolling.

I think you watched a different game.

Yep, that's the game I watched, biltong.  Is there a danger that the Bokke will over-rotate their squad this weekend do you think?

Meyer said he will make some changes, but within reason.

I think the changes he will make is a new front row, he has rotated Bismarck and Adriaan all season and is likely to do so again. He said Bakkies will play with du Toit at lock, so that will be a new combination. Lambie looks like he will start. We might see Lourens Adriaanse at tight head.

Will that lessen momentum, or will the changes be seemless?

butterfingers wrote:

funnyExiledScot wrote:

fa0019 wrote:Possession is only a lukewarm indicator on game dominance. Why, well it depends on what you do with the ball. Some teams will have a ball for 4 phases and make 80 metres, some will keep the ball for 10 and make 10 metres.

SA were/are very clinical. They make hard yards and when its not on they don't hang about.

Wales had a lot of ball but didn't do anything with it, were going for bland recycle after recycle.

+100%. This is why Andy Robinson's regime failed, both with England and Scotland. He was obsessed with possession statistics and having "more of the ball", but utterly disinterested in what his sides actually did with it. Remember those endless sideways pick and drives that so defined his regime. We'd lose by 20 points and be told that we did ok, as "we had more of the ball but just didn't convert our chances".

We've been far more adventurous and efficient under Scott Johnson. In fact if I recall correctly we had less of the ball in the wins against Italy and Ireland in the 6 Nations, yet scored more points. I like scoring more points.

Wasn't Robinsons record v SH teams second to none up north though?

Yes, he beat both Australia and South Africa. Sadly his record against everyone else was less good, thus why he was sacked.

AsLongAsBut100ofUs wrote:

Biltong wrote:

AsLongAsBut100ofUs wrote:

Biltong wrote:

butterfingers wrote:the SA power game was nullified and the Welsh pack more than held it's own

We got the only tight head of the match.

We stole four of Wales' line outs

We won the collisions

We turned over more of their ball, in fact a significant amount more.

We drove them back and made yards in our forward runs.

We mauled them into the ground, they didn't get one maul rolling.

I think you watched a different game.

Yep, that's the game I watched, biltong.  Is there a danger that the Bokke will over-rotate their squad this weekend do you think?

Meyer said he will make some changes, but within reason.

I think the changes he will make is a new front row, he has rotated Bismarck and Adriaan all season and is likely to do so again. He said Bakkies will play with du Toit at lock, so that will be a new combination. Lambie looks like he will start. We might see Lourens Adriaanse at tight head.

Will that lessen momentum, or will the changes be seemless?

As long as he keeps the backrow, it will be fine, but I have a suspicion he will make some changes there. Without our backrow we struggled against Scotland last time

I think the backrow is a difficult decision for SJ. South Africa are physical across the board, which would support using both Brown and Strokosch on the flanks, however the alternative school of thought would be to use Brown and Barclay, and try to pinch those turnovers. Barclay won't win many collisions, whereas Strokosch will, however Barclay will have a better shot at winning turnovers than Strokosch, and keeping up with play to support the backs.

The 3rd alternative is to drop Denton and play Strokosch, Barclay and Brown in tandem. My least favourite option, as we need Denton to get us on the front foot and carry the ball, particularly if the Glasgow fans get their wish for the totally useless and incompetent Ford to be dropped for the reincarnation of Sean Fitzpatrick that is Pat MacArthur.

I'd personally stick with the same back row as against Japan, and bring Barclay off the bench, however I'd be pretty comfortable switching Barclay for Strokosch. As long as either Denton or Beattie start at 8 (my preference being Denton purely as a result of being battle hardened and match fit).

funnyExiledScot wrote:

butterfingers wrote:

funnyExiledScot wrote:

fa0019 wrote:Possession is only a lukewarm indicator on game dominance. Why, well it depends on what you do with the ball. Some teams will have a ball for 4 phases and make 80 metres, some will keep the ball for 10 and make 10 metres.

SA were/are very clinical. They make hard yards and when its not on they don't hang about.

Wales had a lot of ball but didn't do anything with it, were going for bland recycle after recycle.

+100%. This is why Andy Robinson's regime failed, both with England and Scotland. He was obsessed with possession statistics and having "more of the ball", but utterly disinterested in what his sides actually did with it. Remember those endless sideways pick and drives that so defined his regime. We'd lose by 20 points and be told that we did ok, as "we had more of the ball but just didn't convert our chances".

We've been far more adventurous and efficient under Scott Johnson. In fact if I recall correctly we had less of the ball in the wins against Italy and Ireland in the 6 Nations, yet scored more points. I like scoring more points.

Wasn't Robinsons record v SH teams second to none up north though?

Yes, he beat both Australia and South Africa. Sadly his record against everyone else was less good, thus why he was sacked.

So your saying he was the mastermind behind beating the SH teams? Sure would be handy 5 days before the SA game...

funnyExiledScot wrote:I think the backrow is a difficult decision for SJ. South Africa are physical across the board, which would support using both Brown and Strokosch on the flanks, however the alternative school of thought would be to use Brown and Barclay, and try to pinch those turnovers. Barclay won't win many collisions, whereas Strokosch will, however Barclay will have a better shot at winning turnovers than Strokosch, and keeping up with play to support the backs.

The 3rd alternative is to drop Denton and play Strokosch, Barclay and Brown in tandem. My least favourite option, as we need Denton to get us on the front foot and carry the ball, particularly if the Glasgow fans get their wish for the totally useless and incompetent Ford to be dropped for the reincarnation of Sean Fitzpatrick that is Pat MacArthur.

I'd personally stick with the same back row as against Japan, and bring Barclay off the bench, however I'd be pretty comfortable switching Barclay for Strokosch. As long as either Denton or Beattie start at 8 (my preference being Denton purely as a result of being battle hardened and match fit).

I know that you love hyperbole, but I haven't seen anyone go that far - the expressed wish was merely for someone in the 2 shirt that might attempt to 'hook' the ball - I think the clue was in the position's name!

Elsewhere, I'm of a mind with you that it's time for Brown-Barclay-Denton - we lose Stroks' chopping ability, but I'd expect a Gray snr-Swinson combo to deliver that, and Dickinson and Cross aren't too shabby in the tackling department either. Let's pick a set of tactics to challenge the Bokke, and then pick the players to deliver on that, rather than getting the old shoe-horn out again!

butterfingers wrote:

funnyExiledScot wrote:

butterfingers wrote:

funnyExiledScot wrote:

fa0019 wrote:Possession is only a lukewarm indicator on game dominance. Why, well it depends on what you do with the ball. Some teams will have a ball for 4 phases and make 80 metres, some will keep the ball for 10 and make 10 metres.

SA were/are very clinical. They make hard yards and when its not on they don't hang about.

Wales had a lot of ball but didn't do anything with it, were going for bland recycle after recycle.

+100%. This is why Andy Robinson's regime failed, both with England and Scotland. He was obsessed with possession statistics and having "more of the ball", but utterly disinterested in what his sides actually did with it. Remember those endless sideways pick and drives that so defined his regime. We'd lose by 20 points and be told that we did ok, as "we had more of the ball but just didn't convert our chances".

We've been far more adventurous and efficient under Scott Johnson. In fact if I recall correctly we had less of the ball in the wins against Italy and Ireland in the 6 Nations, yet scored more points. I like scoring more points.

Wasn't Robinsons record v SH teams second to none up north though?

Yes, he beat both Australia and South Africa. Sadly his record against everyone else was less good, thus why he was sacked.

So your saying he was the mastermind behind beating the SH teams? Sure would be handy 5 days before the SA game...

Thanks, but no thanks. The number of 'interesting' selections has fallen dramatically since Robinson's demise, and all for the good

If you want to beat the Bokke, select the biggest nuicances and mongrels for the breakdown.

That is where it will start.

then kick all your goals, and hope to hell we don't gain momentum.

Biltong wrote:If you want to beat the Bokke, select the biggest nuicances and mongrels for the breakdown.

That is where it will start.

then kick all your goals, and hope to hell we don't gain momentum.

That's exactly why I think the Boks will be rubbing their hands with glee if we don't pick Hamilton and Stroks.

They're not sexy and they are certainly not new, but they sure as hell played like mongrels in the summer.

However I keep coming back to Uncle Johnno's promise to test a few new combinations and blood some new talent.

Picking Stroks and Hamilton means all the 'testing' needs to be done against the Aussies.

or feed you guys some dodgy meat?

 

butterfingers wrote:

funnyExiledScot wrote:

butterfingers wrote:

funnyExiledScot wrote:

fa0019 wrote:Possession is only a lukewarm indicator on game dominance. Why, well it depends on what you do with the ball. Some teams will have a ball for 4 phases and make 80 metres, some will keep the ball for 10 and make 10 metres.

SA were/are very clinical. They make hard yards and when its not on they don't hang about.

Wales had a lot of ball but didn't do anything with it, were going for bland recycle after recycle.

+100%. This is why Andy Robinson's regime failed, both with England and Scotland. He was obsessed with possession statistics and having "more of the ball", but utterly disinterested in what his sides actually did with it. Remember those endless sideways pick and drives that so defined his regime. We'd lose by 20 points and be told that we did ok, as "we had more of the ball but just didn't convert our chances".

We've been far more adventurous and efficient under Scott Johnson. In fact if I recall correctly we had less of the ball in the wins against Italy and Ireland in the 6 Nations, yet scored more points. I like scoring more points.

Wasn't Robinsons record v SH teams second to none up north though?

Yes, he beat both Australia and South Africa. Sadly his record against everyone else was less good, thus why he was sacked.

So your saying he was the mastermind behind beating the SH teams? Sure would be handy 5 days before the SA game...

I don't think you can put that home victory over Australia down to a "mastermind", do you? Do you remember the game?? I certainly didn't use the word "mastermind", I just stated the fact that he had victories against Australia and South Africa.

I would not under any circumstances want Andy Robinson back in the Scotland set-up, notwithstanding a few excellent one-off victories.

Picking the big mongrels won't help, Hamilton and Strokosch can't compete with the boks, competing with the boks is the opposite way to go.

NZ always have the measure of them because they play around and outclass them, they recognise the bok power and play a subtle little game that keeps the bok pack on their toes, constantly moving, and scanning, if they don't have targets to smash they get frustrated.

SA want teams to step up and meet them, what they don't want is to be drawn into a game where the ball moves at such a pace and the point of contact never sits still.

Rewatch Wales best plays, they came from the odd slip pass that broke the line, Gethin Jenkins, Davies and Davies all brke the line because a defender commits way too early.

You also have to watch JDV, he'll fly up on every opportunity, I couldn't beleive Wales weren't trying to target him.

Funny

OK mastermind was a bit strong, but didn't he play Barclay at 8, with 2 more ball players in the back row? That seemed to kill Aus's breakdown speed and they constantly slowed and nicked ball in that game.

Ugly game yes, good tactics, good set up and solid execution? Definately!

AsLongAsBut100ofUs wrote:

funnyExiledScot wrote:I think the backrow is a difficult decision for SJ. South Africa are physical across the board, which would support using both Brown and Strokosch on the flanks, however the alternative school of thought would be to use Brown and Barclay, and try to pinch those turnovers. Barclay won't win many collisions, whereas Strokosch will, however Barclay will have a better shot at winning turnovers than Strokosch, and keeping up with play to support the backs.

The 3rd alternative is to drop Denton and play Strokosch, Barclay and Brown in tandem. My least favourite option, as we need Denton to get us on the front foot and carry the ball, particularly if the Glasgow fans get their wish for the totally useless and incompetent Ford to be dropped for the reincarnation of Sean Fitzpatrick that is Pat MacArthur.

I'd personally stick with the same back row as against Japan, and bring Barclay off the bench, however I'd be pretty comfortable switching Barclay for Strokosch. As long as either Denton or Beattie start at 8 (my preference being Denton purely as a result of being battle hardened and match fit).

I know that you love hyperbole, but I haven't seen anyone go that far - the expressed wish was merely for someone in the 2 shirt that might attempt to 'hook' the ball - I think the clue was in the position's name!

I do, I really do.

I think we should select Stuart McInally at hooker, if for no other reason than he plays for my team.

 

butterfingers wrote:Funny

OK mastermind was a bit strong, but didn't he play Barclay at 8, with 2 more ball players in the back row? That seemed to kill Aus's breakdown speed and they constantly slowed and nicked ball in that game.

Ugly game yes, good tactics, good set up and solid execution? Definately!

We're talking about two different games. I was referring to the home game at Murrayfield, where we were perhaps a touch on the lucky side to win.

I agree re: beating Australia in Newcastle. I personally thought the selection of Barclay at 8 was utterly daft at the time - I hate seeing players out of position as a rule, but in those conditions having an extra breakdown specialist worked well, and we completely frustrated Australia.

Great win, but I still don't miss AR's eccentric team selections one bit.

tigertattie wrote:or feed you guys some dodgy meat?

 

We aren't the AB's

funnyExiledScot wrote:

butterfingers wrote:Funny

OK mastermind was a bit strong, but didn't he play Barclay at 8, with 2 more ball players in the back row? That seemed to kill Aus's breakdown speed and they constantly slowed and nicked ball in that game.

Ugly game yes, good tactics, good set up and solid execution? Definately!

We're talking about two different games. I was referring to the home game at Murrayfield, where we were perhaps a touch on the lucky side to win.

I agree re: beating Australia in Newcastle. I personally thought the selection of Barclay at 8 was utterly daft at the time - I hate seeing players out of position as a rule, but in those conditions having an extra breakdown specialist worked well, and we completely frustrated Australia.

Great win, but I still don't miss AR's eccentric team selections one bit.

Oh Murrayfield... apologies.

Yet another Robinson mastermind  

butterfingers wrote:

funnyExiledScot wrote:

butterfingers wrote:Funny

OK mastermind was a bit strong, but didn't he play Barclay at 8, with 2 more ball players in the back row? That seemed to kill Aus's breakdown speed and they constantly slowed and nicked ball in that game.

Ugly game yes, good tactics, good set up and solid execution? Definately!

We're talking about two different games. I was referring to the home game at Murrayfield, where we were perhaps a touch on the lucky side to win.

I agree re: beating Australia in Newcastle. I personally thought the selection of Barclay at 8 was utterly daft at the time - I hate seeing players out of position as a rule, but in those conditions having an extra breakdown specialist worked well, and we completely frustrated Australia.

Great win, but I still don't miss AR's eccentric team selections one bit.

Oh Murrayfield... apologies.

Yet another Robinson mastermind  

butter, can we pls agree that those two words shall never appear in the same sentence unless also with the words 'not' or separately 'Mrs'?!  

AsLongAsBut100ofUs wrote:

butterfingers wrote:

funnyExiledScot wrote:

butterfingers wrote:Funny

OK mastermind was a bit strong, but didn't he play Barclay at 8, with 2 more ball players in the back row? That seemed to kill Aus's breakdown speed and they constantly slowed and nicked ball in that game.

Ugly game yes, good tactics, good set up and solid execution? Definately!

We're talking about two different games. I was referring to the home game at Murrayfield, where we were perhaps a touch on the lucky side to win.

I agree re: beating Australia in Newcastle. I personally thought the selection of Barclay at 8 was utterly daft at the time - I hate seeing players out of position as a rule, but in those conditions having an extra breakdown specialist worked well, and we completely frustrated Australia.

Great win, but I still don't miss AR's eccentric team selections one bit.

Oh Murrayfield... apologies.

Yet another Robinson mastermind  

butter, can we pls agree that those two words shall never appear in the same sentence unless also with the words 'not' or separately 'Mrs'?!  

  I can't promise anything...