Lions V NSW Waratahs

First topic message reminder :

This is obviously a very important game in the overall context of the tour. Gats should use it primarily as a tough run out for his test team 1 week before the test series begins. But will he still want to give some players a chance to put up their hands? Are there certain positions still up for grabs and if so will he try and use this game as a winner takes all shoot out. It is not ideal to still be asking players to play the Brumbies game and then appear in the 1st test, although not impossible.

For me it should be:

Adam Jones - nailed on
Hibbard - almost nailed on
Grant - experiment
POC - nailed on
AWJ - trial V Parling
Lydiate - needs to prove himself
Faletau - needs to prove himself
Warbs - needs to prove himself
Phillips - nailed on
Sexton - nailed on
North - nailed on
Roberts - nailed on
BOD - nailed on
Maitland - experiment
1/2P - nailed on

Bench:
Cole.....purely for some hard match practice as I see Jones as nailed on
T.Youngs....could challenge for a starting spot if he excels as a replacement - worth a look
Vuni.......originally viewed as an impact sub so interesting to see how he goes compared to the highly rated (by the Scots) Grant who is deserving of a start
Parling.....worth another look to see if he is worth a starting or bench spot
Croft....another who deserves a run out to see if he is worth a bench spot
Heaslip....given an opportunity could take the starters spot
Youngs....assuming he will be the test sub so let him see what impact he can make
Farrell....ditto as for Youngs

Is a 6/2 bench split a bit risky?

Who would you like to see run out on Sat and do you just want the test side to play or do you still see this as a chance to experiment and give players a fair crack?

Update with actual team.
Lions team: Leigh Halfpenny; Sean Maitland, Jonathan Davies, Jamie Roberts, Simon Zebo; Jonathan Sexton, Mike Phillips; Mako Vunipola, Tom Youngs, Adam Jones, Alun Wyn Jones, Paul O'Connell , Tom Croft, Sam Warburton (capt), Jamie Heaslip
Replacements: Richard Hibbard, Alex Corbisiero, Dan Cole, Geoff Parling, Dan Lydiate, Ben Youngs, Owen Farrell, Rob Kearney

RuggerRadge2611 wrote:I would, but not as an exclusive back up 10, more a utility back. I would think Sexton could finish the whole test match at 10 and Hogg could replace Halfpenny or Maitland with 20 minutes to go...

Yes but if there are even minor concerns over Sexton's hamstring then I wouldn't be at all comfortable with Hogg at 10. He's not needed as wing or fullback cover if Tuilagi and Maitland are in the squad anyway, so why have him covering a position that he's still never played at a serious level in the most important test match of 2013?

I dont think Hogg's defense is up to anything but absolute emergency duty at 10 at test level at the moment.

my starting test     vun    hib    Jones   gray    poc     warb 6        tip 7      heaslip       Philips    sexton     north 11       doc      bod cuth     halfpenny              bench.  best   cole  grant   awj    lydiate or croft   murry    hogg    and  faletau

Croft is unique in that on the opps throw he stands at 1, with only one lifter. He can get so high and more importantly quick, that he either nicks the throw or causes the opp hooker to try and get it over him and often this leads to a poor throw.

It's not so much the catches he makes, as the disrution he causes.

Plus of course on open play he is unequaled. It would be intersting to see him in a race over 60m with Tuperic. For a guy with so much pace, Tuperic does not seem to use it a lot ball in hand.

Tips does use his pace: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZvEe7QiHnl0

WELL-PAST-IT wrote:Croft is unique in that on the opps throw he stands at 1, with only one lifter. He can get so high and more importantly quick, that he either nicks the throw or causes the opp hooker to try and get it over him and often this leads to a poor throw.

It's not so much the catches he makes, as the disrution he causes.

Plus of course on open play he is unequaled. It would be intersting to see him in a race over 60m with Tuperic. For a guy with so much pace, Tuperic does not seem to use it a lot ball in hand.

So why was England's line out so poor in the 6 Nations - Did he not play early on

Ruby, no he was injured and only came back towards the end. He damaged his neck trying to tackle some monster who's name escapes me, but his head was on the wrong side and about 4 months out. England started out with Wood, Robshaw and Morgan and looked good. As people got injured we ended up with a totally unbalanced back row, i.e Wood at 8. the performances got gradually worse culminating with the unmanning in Cardiff. I would like to think that the side that played Scotland first match would have given a much better account of themselves. That weekend Wales played like headless monkeys, so a pity from out point of view that we didn't play Wales first, we might have got a GS that way.

Not sure of the detailsof Crofts injury, being a Saints fan, Tigers players problems are well down the list of priorities, we have enough problems of our own i.e props leaving and Callum Clarke.

We might have unearthed a brilliant center for next year, a young lad called North, born in England as well. Rumour has it he has Welsh parentage, bet they snap him up before England do.





Sorry couldn't resist it.

It was Easter

Some points to make

- Tipuric is an excellent lineout jumper, playing Warbs/Tips at 6/7 we wouldn't lose much in the lineout. The fight is between SOB and Croft for the 6 shirt AND between Croft and Tipuric. I would start Warbs and Tips with SOB on the bench - but I think they might save that pairing for the 2nd test

- The Lions haven't had a tight defensive game so far - they had a pacy game against the Reds, but it was hardly backs against the wall stuff. When you need that big defensive game certain player are invaluable, while they might seem poor comparisons against weak opposition - Jamie Roberts is the best defensive centre in the northern hemisphere and I am sure he will start, Tuilagi may offer more pace going forward but I have some big concerns over his defensive positions. Equally, Dan Lydiate will start the 2nd test if those who start the first can't control the Aussie carrying in midfield and around the fringes

- Hogg should NOT be the backup 10. If Sexton is injured early then not having a proper 10 will cost the Lions the game, it is too much of a risk to have a player at 10 who has never been tested by a club level defence, let alone an international defence. Hogg's ability to play 11, 13, 14 and 15 might see him given the 23 shirt - although I would favour a big impact player like JD2 or Tuilagi

lostinwales wrote:It was Easter

Not certain but I thought it was nearer Christmas.

If BOD is playing then Roberts must play as the only other specialist 12 in the squad is Twelvetrees and he is a bit of an utility back. If I am not mistaken Tuilagi has only played 12 once (on this tour) and Davies has concentrated on 13 for the past couple of seasons.

Am I the only one who is concerned that BOD is yet to play in a truly competitive game? He looked great against Western Force and the Combined 15 but those players are hardly top class opposition.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_embedded&v=yhq_y16LEJg

Trip down memory lane - Lions v Waratahs 2001. Wasn't much of a game. More an 80 minute brawl-fest.

Seagultaf wrote:If BOD is playing then Roberts must play as the only other specialist 12 in the squad is Twelvetrees and he is a bit of an utility back. If I am not mistaken Tuilagi has only played 12 once (on this tour) and Davies has concentrated on 13 for the past couple of seasons.

Am I the only one who is concerned that BOD is yet to play in a truly competitive game? He looked great against Western Force and the Combined 15 but those players are hardly top class opposition.

You are right Seagultaf but the pairing of Tuilagi & BOD was the most successful so far.

When Manu & Brian played as the 12/13 combo who were the opponents?

Seagultaf wrote:If BOD is playing then Roberts must play as the only other specialist 12 in the squad is Twelvetrees and he is a bit of an utility back. If I am not mistaken Tuilagi has only played 12 once (on this tour) and Davies has concentrated on 13 for the past couple of seasons.

Am I the only one who is concerned that BOD is yet to play in a truly competitive game? He looked great against Western Force and the Combined 15 but those players are hardly top class opposition.

Davies always looks very comfortable at 12, he switches around plenty between 12 and 13 for Scarlets and Wales and has done so for the Lions in every game he played so far. 

He and BOD are the best option. If Hogg is bench cover for back three and ten then we can use Roberts as an impact sub in the tests.

maestegmafia wrote:

Seagultaf wrote:If BOD is playing then Roberts must play as the only other specialist 12 in the squad is Twelvetrees and he is a bit of an utility back. If I am not mistaken Tuilagi has only played 12 once (on this tour) and Davies has concentrated on 13 for the past couple of seasons.

Am I the only one who is concerned that BOD is yet to play in a truly competitive game? He looked great against Western Force and the Combined 15 but those players are hardly top class opposition.

Davies always looks very comfortable at 12, he switches around plenty between 12 and 13 for Scarlets and Wales and has done so for the Lions in every game he played so far. 

He and BOD are the best option. If Hogg is bench cover for back three and ten then we can use Roberts as an impact sub in the tests.

Spot on Maes mate

flyhalffactory wrote:

maestegmafia wrote:

Seagultaf wrote:If BOD is playing then Roberts must play as the only other specialist 12 in the squad is Twelvetrees and he is a bit of an utility back. If I am not mistaken Tuilagi has only played 12 once (on this tour) and Davies has concentrated on 13 for the past couple of seasons.

Am I the only one who is concerned that BOD is yet to play in a truly competitive game? He looked great against Western Force and the Combined 15 but those players are hardly top class opposition.

Davies always looks very comfortable at 12, he switches around plenty between 12 and 13 for Scarlets and Wales and has done so for the Lions in every game he played so far. 

He and BOD are the best option. If Hogg is bench cover for back three and ten then we can use Roberts as an impact sub in the tests.

Spot on Maes mate

We need footballing players to start and we need to bring on big ball carriers and sharp feet in the later stages of the match. THe lions bench could be their biggest asset.

Imagine seeing players of the calibre and ability of Vunipola, Youngs, Cole, Gray, SOB, Youngs, Hogg and the Doc coming on.

maestegmafia wrote:

flyhalffactory wrote:

maestegmafia wrote:

Seagultaf wrote:If BOD is playing then Roberts must play as the only other specialist 12 in the squad is Twelvetrees and he is a bit of an utility back. If I am not mistaken Tuilagi has only played 12 once (on this tour) and Davies has concentrated on 13 for the past couple of seasons.

Am I the only one who is concerned that BOD is yet to play in a truly competitive game? He looked great against Western Force and the Combined 15 but those players are hardly top class opposition.

Davies always looks very comfortable at 12, he switches around plenty between 12 and 13 for Scarlets and Wales and has done so for the Lions in every game he played so far. 

He and BOD are the best option. If Hogg is bench cover for back three and ten then we can use Roberts as an impact sub in the tests.

Spot on Maes mate

We need footballing players to start and we need to bring on big ball carriers and sharp feet in the later stages of the match. THe lions bench could be their biggest asset.

Imagine seeing players of the calibre and ability of Vunipola, Youngs, Cole, Gray, SOB, Youngs, Hogg and the Doc coming on.

Oh Baby!
Finally someone with a keen mind who understands the key to Lions success.  Meas, you are a ruddy genius.  I vote for you for King of the IRB. 

Wait, let me see that again..........

maestegmafia wrote:Imagine seeing players of the calibre and ability of................the Doc coming on.

Still just makes me all warm inside.

Well, now that the proverbial cat is out of the bag, let's go kick some Wallaby booty. The first round is one me.

doctor_grey wrote:

maestegmafia wrote:

flyhalffactory wrote:

maestegmafia wrote:

Seagultaf wrote:If BOD is playing then Roberts must play as the only other specialist 12 in the squad is Twelvetrees and he is a bit of an utility back. If I am not mistaken Tuilagi has only played 12 once (on this tour) and Davies has concentrated on 13 for the past couple of seasons.

Am I the only one who is concerned that BOD is yet to play in a truly competitive game? He looked great against Western Force and the Combined 15 but those players are hardly top class opposition.

Davies always looks very comfortable at 12, he switches around plenty between 12 and 13 for Scarlets and Wales and has done so for the Lions in every game he played so far. 

He and BOD are the best option. If Hogg is bench cover for back three and ten then we can use Roberts as an impact sub in the tests.

Spot on Maes mate

We need footballing players to start and we need to bring on big ball carriers and sharp feet in the later stages of the match. THe lions bench could be their biggest asset.

Imagine seeing players of the calibre and ability of Vunipola, Youngs, Cole, Gray, SOB, Youngs, Hogg and the Doc coming on.

Oh Baby!
Finally someone with a keen mind who understands the key to Lions success.  Meas, you are a ruddy genius.  I vote for you for King of the IRB. 

Wait, let me see that again..........

maestegmafia wrote:Imagine seeing players of the calibre and ability of................the Doc coming on.

Still just makes me all warm inside.

Well, now that the proverbial cat is out of the bag, let's go kick some Wallaby booty. The first round is one me.

As long as it doesnt interfere with your rounds?

So chat this morning is that Gray has a shoulder knock and was not available for selection, North is only able to walk, BoD is back running and Tuilagi is back doing non-contact training.

Big worries over North!

The Waratahs side looks as strong as possible. This is an improved side to the one which put 3 tries on a full strength Force last week so they will be a tricky team and from the set piece they should make things more diffiicult then the Reds did.

Will Skelton in the second row is one to look out for... impossible to miss... he's the guy who makes Richard Kiel look average.

Ben Volavola is also an impressive strike runner. On the bench mind but has been very impressive in various cameos this season.

RDW_Scotland wrote:So chat this morning is that Gray has a shoulder knock and was not available for selection, North is only able to walk, BoD is back running and Tuilagi is back doing non-contact training.

Big worries over North!

Huge worries over North.  Whilst all of the other three players you mention are top class, I do feel that we have the players in the squad to compensate for them being unavailable if that ends up being the case.  With North I am not so sure.  Having lost Tommy Bowe already, losing the big man would be a disaster.  His ability to come off the wing into midfield and get over the gainline, and then get the ball away to the support will cause the Aussies real problems.  They will be concerned about what he brings.  Whilst the other wing options are decent, I am not convinced that Robbie Deans and his squad will be losing a huge amount of sleep over them.

If North is injured who would be in your 3/4s.

I'd take Maitland, Hogg & Halfpenny at 11,15 & 14.

If Tuilagi recovers it could be worth trying him out on the wing... rather him than Cuthbert. Defence is much more important than attack for the tests.

I'd be tempted to go the same as yourself fa0019.  I'm not keen on Tuilagi on the wing at all.

I wouldn't have Tuilagi on the wing as anything other than bench cover. He's not quite fast enough I don't think, and it comes with a whole load of positional stuff to learn that doesn't change as much between 12/13.

To whoever said that he's only played 12 the one time - he played there for England vs South Africa last summer with Joseph outside him, and has done a fair few times for Leicester. It doesn't really suit the way England or Leicester usually play, but if the Lions are looking to go with a big inside centre then he should be close to the test team. His performance vs Force was on a completely different level from Roberts vs Combined Country.

if both fit I'd lean towards Tuilagi.

Roberts - better in defence. Has previous good partnership with BOD.

Tuilagi - better in attack. Will get BOD a lot of line breaks.

Agreed on North - he is a game changer whereas if the others were injured it wouldn't be a significant step down in quality.

I'd still probably go for Cuthbert and Maitland on the wings - now is not the time to try Tuilagi or Hogg on the wing - and Cuthhert is a very good strike runner and Maitland provides the allround skill set.

Big problem with Cuthbert though... he will score his chances... but he's so cringeworthy in defence that he could let in a host of tries. Against players like Beale, Folau, O'Connor etc I'd be worried.

In fact I'd rather have Zebo if he plays well on Saturday.

Stat of the day (not sure if it is true or not):

The Lions have never won a test without a Scotsman in the squad

Anyone able to verify that??

RDW_Scotland wrote:Agreed on North - he is a game changer whereas if the others were injured it wouldn't be a significant step down in quality.

I'd still probably go for Cuthbert and Maitland on the wings - now is not the time to try Tuilagi or Hogg on the wing - and Cuthhert is a very good strike runner and Maitland provides the allround skill set.

I wouldn't try either of them on the wing either, I would go 11. Maitland 14. Halfpenny 15. Hogg.

you mean a test 23? not squad right?

Yeah, match day squad means subs too

RDW_Scotland wrote:Yeah, match day squad means subs too

When was the last time there wasnt at least one of each nation in the match day squad. I'd say that rarely happens. In the third test v SA for example only Ross Ford from Scotland was in the squad for the Lions. He came off the bench.

Surely in the days before subs there will have been a test win without one nation represented in the XV?

I'd be amazed if in the history of the Lions that has never happened - incredible if that is the case though.

You can add another stat to that.

Since the 1971 the lions have won 15 test matches.

They achieved 6 victories in the 70s and each time drew the most starting XV players from Wales.
 
71 1st & 3rd test 9 & 8 players
74 1st, 2nd & 3rd test - 5 players each.
77 2nd test - 8 players.

Every single match since 1980 drew the most of its starting XV from England.

80 4th test - 5 players
89 2nd & 3rd test - 8 players
93 2nd test - 11 players (crikey)
97 1st & 2nd test - 6 & 7 players
01 1st test - 8 players
09 3rd test - 6 players

Looking forward to this game. Watched the highlights of the '01 match. Wow that was some donnybrook!! 1 red card and 4 yellows. Hopefully it will be equally tough but less dirty.

I'd love the Lions to go behind for much of the match... at some point in the test series we will behind and players need to be able to react to the pressure. I want them to win but being under pressure may help our players.

In 97 the North Transvaal game was pivotal. Had we sneaked through (we almost did) we may have not looked at ourselves properly and may not have won the series. The aftermath of that match was brutal by all accounts.

I can't stand to watch the attack on RoG - horrific thuggery.  And he only got 7 weeks!

Apparently he was completely vilified in Australia for it though - rightly so.

RDW_Scotland wrote:I can't stand to watch the attack on RoG - horrific thuggery.  And he only got 7 weeks!

Apparently he was completely vilified in Australia for it though - rightly so.

7 weeks was bizarre. I always wondered why ROG never fought back or really defended himself until I watched the documentary recently. According to ROG when on the injury table the first punch knocked him out or dazed him and it was open season after that.

McRae is a thug and a smug one at that. The big smile on his face and then aloof expression when he got the red card says it all. I understand throwing a punch in anger but teeing off like he did should have attracted a very big ban.

I'm hugely sure he was told to target ROG at the earliest oppotunity, really wouldn't surprise me at all.

Is Drew Mitchell the  one that looks like Bieber ?

No, that's JOC

Mitchell is an ex-Wallaby though

ROG didn't fight back because McCrae was twice his size and battered him. I'd be more interested in why none of his teammates came to his rescue...

5 euro on the waratahs to win...I'm not convinced this Lions side is as good as made out.

If the Lions lose we're in big trouble... there at are least 10 starters in that side and the Waratahs are missing 16 players to injury and AUS squad.

I think they may just be the best club side we'll face however. I think this side would have beaten the reds last week.

I was watching the video, and it is a fair way off the ball. The Lions full back (Balshaw?) is the only one who seems to look over, and even he doesn't do very much!

Balshaw not doing much 'shocker'

rodders wrote:ROG didn't fight back because McCrae was twice his size and battered him. I'd be more interested in why none of his teammates came to his rescue...

5 euro on the waratahs to win...I'm not convinced this Lions side is as good as made out.

Not sure about that, McRae looks quite small on the clips I have seen.

He was only 5'8 and 84kg which isnt particularly big at all.

http://thebulldogs.com.au/sportal.php?page=player&id=617