Horwill Cited

by jelly Sat 22 Jun 2013, 11:21 pm

First topic message reminder :

Horwill has been cited for "stamping or trampling" on AWJ - no idea what time this happened as nobody seemed to notice at the time.

by fa0019 Mon 24 Jun 2013, 10:28 am

SecretFly wrote:Hard but a gent?

So is O'Driscoll. He still stamped on someone and had his ban.

Gents can do nasty auld things when the blood is up in war.

That wasn't intentional. Had that been O'Connell on Douglas we wouldn't even be speaking about it.

by SecretFly Mon 24 Jun 2013, 10:35 am

fa0019 wrote:
SecretFly wrote:Hard but a gent?

So is O'Driscoll. He still stamped on someone and had his ban.

Gents can do nasty auld things when the blood is up in war.

That wasn't intentional. Had that been O'Connell on Douglas we wouldn't even be speaking about it.

What wasn't intentional? Horwill's or O'Driscoll's? Like I said earlier, I don't usually chase down citing issues as they tend to be debates that lose all sense of logic very qucikly, and neither am I a fervent Lions supporter ( I like the games as entertainment - I can relax and enjoy them much more than when my National side are playing) So, I'm not on Horwill's case and genuinely am not frothing at the mouth that he slipped past a ban. But I see what I see, and I saw a quite sly and therefore nasty, and intended, foot into a dangerous area. The citing guys can call it any way they want - I saw intent and an offence committed.

by fa0019 Mon 24 Jun 2013, 10:42 am

When was O'Driscolls?

I was referring to Horwills. The lack of uproar and the citing officer saying their was no intent would suggest otherwise but everyone has a right to an opinion.
I didn't see anything in it myself.

by GunsGerms Mon 24 Jun 2013, 10:45 am

fa0019 wrote:When was O'Driscolls?

I was referring to Horwills. The lack of uproar and the citing officer saying their was no intent would suggest otherwise but everyone has a right to an opinion.
I didn't see anything in it myself.

v Italy in the 6N.

by SecretFly Mon 24 Jun 2013, 10:50 am

fa0019 wrote:When was O'Driscolls?

I was referring to Horwills. The lack of uproar and the citing officer saying their was no intent would suggest otherwise but everyone has a right to an opinion.
I didn't see anything in it myself.

There was quite a bit of uproar on ye olde Twitter. Lots of people seemed to think the citing guys needed a trip to Specsavers.

It's over though. Like I say, I don't care in the particular of him walking on this one, I just find it hard to see how nothing could be seen. But there you go, that a classic citing debate I guess.

by John Cregan Mon 24 Jun 2013, 12:04 pm

It's pretty obvious that there is an acceptable level of violence allowed in Rugby.............the ridiculously leniant bans Healy & BOD got in the 6 Nations and now a clear stamp goes unpunished.............

Not a game to be selling to the kids...............

by GunsGerms Mon 24 Jun 2013, 12:21 pm

John Cregan wrote:It's pretty obvious that there is an acceptable level of violence allowed in Rugby.............the ridiculously leniant bans Healy & BOD got in the 6 Nations and now a clear stamp goes unpunished.............

Not a game to be selling to the kids...............

If it is unintentional it shouldnt be punished. Horwill was not looking at AJWs head when the stamp occured and therefore in all likelyhood was not intentional. Paul O'Connell wasnt even cited when he kicked Dave Kearney in the head and put him in hospital. Interesting how you forgot about that one.

BOD and Healy's bans were consistent with bans of the same offense plus a reduction as they both have exemplary records of dicipline. Fail to see the issue.

Of course there is an acceptable level of violence in rugby. Merely tackling someone can be quite violent. You would be arrested if you tackled someone in the street with the same level of aggression evident in rugby. So what though, its a tough sport particularly at professional level.

Last thing we want is a sport that becomes over regulated to please every whingy over sensitive casual spectator because that will just lead to professional diving and card fishing.

by SecretFly Mon 24 Jun 2013, 12:28 pm

GunsGerms wrote:
Horwill was not looking at AJWs head when the stamp occured and therefore in all likelyhood was not intentional.

Em, he knew there were legs sticking out from under the pile of bodies...facing him. He knew that much. He still stuck a leg in and jabbed. That's what the video shows. It doesn't show someone trying to get balance (not the right way to find balance anyway), it doesn't show him being thrown off balance, it doesn't show him leaving his foot in there having achieved some 'balance' (as you'd expect even for an instant). It was in out, no grounding - a jab where he fully knew a head could be based on what was on the ground in front of him.

The video is talking not people's perceptions. Balance would have been to splay his feet out underneath him not do the scissors.

by John Cregan Mon 24 Jun 2013, 12:33 pm

GG,

Not sure why you are assuming my views on the POC Keaerney incident, but i believe it should have been punished, although it was accidental, he had a duty of care to Kearney.

The Healy & BOD incidents were disgraceful acts and the ban, while i understand were consistent with bans for the same offence, i think that is the issue.....why do the rugby authorities allow such leniant bans??

Horwill has escaped punishment for reasons other than the incident......has Australia a clean bill of health and had they won the 1st test, he would have been banned. To suggest it was unintentional is pushing it a bit..........................

by LordDowlais Mon 24 Jun 2013, 12:33 pm

SecretFly wrote:
GunsGerms wrote:
Horwill was not looking at AJWs head when the stamp occured and therefore in all likelyhood was not intentional.

Em, he knew there were legs sticking out from under the pile of bodies...facing him. He knew that much. He still stuck a leg in and jabbed. That's what the video shows. It doesn't show someone trying to get balance (not the right way to find balance anyway), it doesn't show him being thrown off balance, it doesn't show him leaving his foot in there having achieved some 'balance' (as you'd expect even for an instant). It was in out, no grounding - a jab where he fully knew a head could be based on what was on the ground in front of him.

The video is talking not people's perceptions. Balance would have been to splay his feet out underneath him not do the scissors.

Agree 100%.

by GunsGerms Mon 24 Jun 2013, 1:17 pm

John Cregan wrote:GG,

The Healy & BOD incidents were disgraceful acts and the ban, while i understand were consistent with bans for the same offence, i think that is the issue.....why do the rugby authorities allow such leniant bans??

Both cases involved an opposition player slowing down ball. If referees cannot properly police the breakdown inevitably players whether it’s right or wrong will end up policing it themselves. BOD and Healy's crimes were soft enough given that they were both reacting to indiscretions rather than premeditatedly targeting players off the ball in order to injure them. Cleaning players out is part of rugby, the methods they chose are not anymore though hence the bans.

I also agree with reduced bans for good records as it incentivises good discipline. I dont see the bans as lenient at all.

by GloriousEmpire Mon 24 Jun 2013, 5:27 pm

LordDowlais wrote:
SecretFly wrote:
GunsGerms wrote:
Horwill was not looking at AJWs head when the stamp occured and therefore in all likelyhood was not intentional.

Em, he knew there were legs sticking out from under the pile of bodies...facing him. He knew that much. He still stuck a leg in and jabbed. That's what the video shows. It doesn't show someone trying to get balance (not the right way to find balance anyway), it doesn't show him being thrown off balance, it doesn't show him leaving his foot in there having achieved some 'balance' (as you'd expect even for an instant). It was in out, no grounding - a jab where he fully knew a head could be based on what was on the ground in front of him.

The video is talking not people's perceptions. Balance would have been to splay his feet out underneath him not do the scissors.

Agree 100%.

I agree its 100% fantasy.

by Guest Mon 24 Jun 2013, 5:47 pm

GloriousEmpire wrote:
LordDowlais wrote:
SecretFly wrote:
GunsGerms wrote:
Horwill was not looking at AJWs head when the stamp occured and therefore in all likelyhood was not intentional.

Em, he knew there were legs sticking out from under the pile of bodies...facing him. He knew that much. He still stuck a leg in and jabbed. That's what the video shows. It doesn't show someone trying to get balance (not the right way to find balance anyway), it doesn't show him being thrown off balance, it doesn't show him leaving his foot in there having achieved some 'balance' (as you'd expect even for an instant). It was in out, no grounding - a jab where he fully knew a head could be based on what was on the ground in front of him.

The video is talking not people's perceptions. Balance would have been to splay his feet out underneath him not do the scissors.

Agree 100%.

I agree its 100% fantasy.

by The Saint Mon 24 Jun 2013, 10:17 pm

This is funny actually. Because I remember the time when Bradley Davies was the victim of a cowardly assault during a fixture between Wales and NZ. A certain poster had the same attitude towards the incident as GE here, he even went as far to say it was Davies' fault and for some reason brought up past misdemeanours involving the victim. It lead to that posters dismissal from the forum eventually. Right now, I'm getting a sense of deja vu...

by nganboy Tue 25 Jun 2013, 2:37 am

beshocked wrote:No consistency yet again. Why do the hosts of Lion's tours always seem to get off lightly when doing something that warrants a ban?

Glorious Empire cut out the rubbish please. Lost a lot of respect for NZ when they didn't condemn the disgraceful actions of Umaga and his partner in crime Mealamu.

The Irish get bans when they stamp on players, why can't Aussies get bans too?

Why is the:ghost: still on these forums?

I watched the 2005 games for the first time a few weeks ago (no coverage where I was at the time) and I can say I am suprised at all the noise around that. I didn't think there was anything in it. Later on Umaga does a clear spear tackle and later a bit of a trip - these he should have been at least penalised for if not a yellow card.

by GloriousEmpire Tue 25 Jun 2013, 8:21 am

Some would even say that if a player is clearly on the wrong side of a ruck, beshocked, he "deserves everything he gets". Sound familiar? I do recall that one being used quite a lot.

by Guest Tue 25 Jun 2013, 10:06 am

GloriousEmpire wrote:Some would even say that if a player is clearly on the wrong side of a ruck, beshocked, he "deserves everything he gets". Sound familiar? I do recall that one being used quite a lot.

by SecretFly Tue 25 Jun 2013, 10:11 am

GloriousEmpire wrote:
LordDowlais wrote:
SecretFly wrote:
GunsGerms wrote:
Horwill was not looking at AJWs head when the stamp occured and therefore in all likelyhood was not intentional.

Em, he knew there were legs sticking out from under the pile of bodies...facing him. He knew that much. He still stuck a leg in and jabbed. That's what the video shows. It doesn't show someone trying to get balance (not the right way to find balance anyway), it doesn't show him being thrown off balance, it doesn't show him leaving his foot in there having achieved some 'balance' (as you'd expect even for an instant). It was in out, no grounding - a jab where he fully knew a head could be based on what was on the ground in front of him.

The video is talking not people's perceptions. Balance would have been to splay his feet out underneath him not do the scissors.

Agree 100%.

I agree its 100% fantasy.

And you and Mr QC type in braille, Glorious Wink

by beshocked Tue 25 Jun 2013, 10:21 am

nganboy of course you wouldn't think there was anything in it. picard

Umaga and Mealamu are NZ heroes. Untouchable.

In my opinion two players turning a player upside down and planting a guy into the ground headfirst warrants a hefty ban. Crazy I know!

Gunsgerms you seriously can't justify BOD and Healy's awful stamps.

Agree John Gregan.

Very little consistency with discipline.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aI89HHfNncE

Flood should have got a ban too so don't think I am just targeting other nations.

by Pete C (Kiwireddevil) Tue 25 Jun 2013, 10:11 pm

NZ-based Englishman Mark Reason has his rant here http://www.stuff.co.nz/sport/rugby/opinion/8840375/Reason-Horwill-wins-thanks-to-judicial-joke - amazingly he hasn't taken a pop at NZ for once Wink

by HammerofThunor Tue 25 Jun 2013, 10:32 pm

What a wonderfully written article. I'm surprised that some commenting don't know that Hampton is a kiwi on the IRB discipline panel rather than an Australian with the ARU. Usually people are better informed.

by GloriousEmpire Tue 25 Jun 2013, 10:39 pm

I always thought your average Lions fan was bitter, one eyed and resentful because of the continual anxiety caused by repeated losing.

Turns out, it's not because of the losing.

by Guest Tue 25 Jun 2013, 10:49 pm

GloriousEmpire wrote:I always thought your average Lions fan was bitter, one eyed and resentful because of the continual anxiety caused by repeated losing.

Turns out, it's not because of the losing.

by Cyril Tue 25 Jun 2013, 11:32 pm

GloriousEmpire wrote:I always thought your average Lions fan was bitter, one eyed and resentful because of the continual anxiety caused by repeated losing.

Turns out, it's not because of the losing.

Come on ghostie, the mask is slipping ghost

by sirBiggles Wed 26 Jun 2013, 12:07 am

Didn't see the stamp during the game, I think most of us missed it. But when they showed it again today, before the Rebels match, it was clear and obvious that Horwill clearly looked down before stamping down on AWJ head. You can defend him as much as you want, it was vicious, cowardice, sly and intentional. It may have been in the heat of the game, but never the less a stud could have easily blinded AWJ. Horwill has been very very lucky to get away with that, and I suspect if it was any other game than a Lions Test series he would be facing a very length ban. He's got away with it, but I hope he's ashamed of his action.

Ask Scott Quinnell what his thoughts are on the incident after his brother Gavin encountered, as I believe that was the case of a very similar incident.

I'll say no more than to all those who come back at me and say it was not deliberate. Watch it again, slowly and carefully. He looks down at AWJs head before stamping with his boot.

by GloriousEmpire Wed 26 Jun 2013, 12:55 am

Oh what rubbish

by Cyril Wed 26 Jun 2013, 12:57 am

GloriousEmpire wrote:Oh what rubbish

As a Kiwi it must be weird to take the side of an Aussie, Mr ghost

As it stands I agree I don't think Horwill was intentionally going for the head.

by GloriousEmpire Wed 26 Jun 2013, 1:21 am

I'm not taking sides, I'm just stating a fact. And im not a kiwi.

by Cyril Wed 26 Jun 2013, 1:31 am

GloriousEmpire wrote:I'm not taking sides, I'm just stating a fact. And im not a kiwi.

What are you then, Mr Empire. Are you fish or fowl or ghost

by aucklandlaurie Wed 26 Jun 2013, 1:39 am

Cyril, How do you know that GloriousEmpire is a Kiwi?
I thought he was from England.

by Cyril Wed 26 Jun 2013, 1:42 am

aucklandlaurie wrote:Cyril, How do you know that GloriousEmpire is a Kiwi?
I thought he was from England.

Hmmm, are you telling me you don't know who he is? Really? Apologies if you're being sarcastic Smile

by aucklandlaurie Wed 26 Jun 2013, 1:45 am

Cyril on 606v2 wrote:
aucklandlaurie wrote:Cyril, How do you know that GloriousEmpire is a Kiwi?
I thought he was from England.
Hmmm, are you telling me you don't know who he is? Really? Apologies if you're being sarcastic

Apology accepted. as Im not being sarcastic at all, I truely dont know who he is, Who is he? and from what part of New Zealand does he come from?

You obviously know a lot more than me ....Share.

by Cyril Wed 26 Jun 2013, 2:00 am

aucklandlaurie wrote:
Cyril on 606v2 wrote:
aucklandlaurie wrote:Cyril, How do you know that GloriousEmpire is a Kiwi?
I thought he was from England.
Hmmm, are you telling me you don't know who he is? Really? Apologies if you're being sarcastic

Apology accepted. as Im not being sarcastic at all, I truely dont know who he is, Who is he? and from what part of New Zealand does he come from?

You obviously know a lot more than me ....Share.

It's greyghost mate. Thought you would have noticed earlier. Oh, and if you're not being sarcastic you can't accept the apology. Them's the rules.

by aucklandlaurie Wed 26 Jun 2013, 2:06 am

Cyril:
Cant be, Grey Ghost was a New Zealander (Kiwi). Are you saying the GloriousEmpire is a New Zealander? Where abouts in New Zealand is he from?

by Taylorman Wed 26 Jun 2013, 2:09 am

sirBiggles wrote:Didn't see the stamp during the game, I think most of us missed it. But when they showed it again today, before the Rebels match, it was clear and obvious that Horwill clearly looked down before stamping down on AWJ head. You can defend him as much as you want, it was vicious, cowardice, sly and intentional. It may have been in the heat of the game, but never the less a stud could have easily blinded AWJ. Horwill has been very very lucky to get away with that, and I suspect if it was any other game than a Lions Test series he would be facing a very length ban. He's got away with it, but I hope he's ashamed of his action.

Ask Scott Quinnell what his thoughts are on the incident after his brother Gavin encountered, as I believe that was the case of a very similar incident.

I'll say no more than to all those who come back at me and say it was not deliberate. Watch it again, slowly and carefully. He looks down at AWJs head before stamping with his boot.

Saw it for the first time myself last night and I thought it looked bad enough for some sort of action. Wouldnt quite use the same words above but I agree he was lucky- perhaps the only piece of luck Oz extracted from the game? That and POC's injury I suppose...

by Taylorman Wed 26 Jun 2013, 2:09 am

aucklandlaurie wrote:Cyril:
Cant be, Grey Ghost was a New Zealander (Kiwi). Are you saying the GloriousEmpire is a New Zealander? Where abouts in New Zealand is he from?

Thought he was Ozzie...thats the only Glorious Empire I know of...

by Cyril Wed 26 Jun 2013, 2:12 am

aucklandlaurie wrote:Cyril:
Cant be, Grey Ghost was a New Zealander (Kiwi). Are you saying the GloriousEmpire is a New Zealander? Where abouts in New Zealand is he from?

Jeebus and Mary Jane! How difficult is it? This is his new account on 606v2. They are one and the same.

Anyway, it's nice to speak to a normal Kiwi who isn't like ghostie Wink

by aucklandlaurie Wed 26 Jun 2013, 2:13 am

I agree Tman, To have three players carted off in one game, is about as much luck as having three car accidents in one day.

by aucklandlaurie Wed 26 Jun 2013, 2:19 am

Cyril on 606v2 wrote:
aucklandlaurie wrote:Cyril:
Cant be, Grey Ghost was a New Zealander (Kiwi). Are you saying the GloriousEmpire is a New Zealander? Where abouts in New Zealand is he from?
Jeebus and Mary Jane! How difficult is it? This is his new account on 606v2. They are one and the same.

Anyway, it's nice to speak to a normal Kiwi who isn't like ghostie

Cyril I think your confused, Grey ghost was from Wellington wasnt he?

by Cyril Wed 26 Jun 2013, 2:20 am

aukland, to be fair you're only as good as your last game and your cricketeters did us in the T20s.

In rugby you really need to step it up mate Smile

I'm sure ghostie will back you up.

by Cyril Wed 26 Jun 2013, 2:21 am

aucklandlaurie wrote:
Cyril on 606v2 wrote:
aucklandlaurie wrote:Cyril:
Cant be, Grey Ghost was a New Zealander (Kiwi). Are you saying the GloriousEmpire is a New Zealander? Where abouts in New Zealand is he from?
Jeebus and Mary Jane! How difficult is it? This is his new account on 606v2. They are one and the same.

Anyway, it's nice to speak to a normal Kiwi who isn't like ghostie

Cyril I think your confused, Grey ghost was from Wellington wasnt he?

He was from most suburbs of London as it suited him Laugh

by aucklandlaurie Wed 26 Jun 2013, 2:24 am

Ive never heard of London. especially not in the Wellington area.

by Taylorman Wed 26 Jun 2013, 2:25 am

Cyril on 606v2 wrote:aukland, to be fair you're only as good as your last game and your cricketeters did us in the T20s.

In rugby you really need to step it up mate

I'm sure ghostie will back you up.

who won this mornings match (NZ vs England cricket) ...saw them playing briefly on sky before I left for work...no idea what the tourney was- we seem to be playing England endlessly...

by Cyril Wed 26 Jun 2013, 2:27 am

aucklandlaurie wrote:
Ive never heard of London. especially not in the Wellington area.

Don't worry. There's a whole world of glass collecting waiting for you.

Very Happy

by aucklandlaurie Wed 26 Jun 2013, 2:29 am

Cyril on 606v2 wrote:aukland, to be fair you're only as good as your last game and your cricketeters did us in the T20s.

In rugby you really need to step it up mate

I'm sure ghostie will back you up.

Jeez tell us about it, the last time the ABs played England they got beaten,
The last time the Under 20s played England they got beaten,
The last time the Black ferns played England they got beaten.

by Cyril Wed 26 Jun 2013, 2:30 am

Taylorman wrote:
Cyril on 606v2 wrote:aukland, to be fair you're only as good as your last game and your cricketeters did us in the T20s.

In rugby you really need to step it up mate

I'm sure ghostie will back you up.

who won this mornings match (NZ vs England cricket) ...saw them playing briefly on sky before I left for work...no idea what the tourney was- we seem to be playing England endlessly...

Yep, you got us in the cricket.

Just as well we beat you last time in the rugby Xvs and the JWC.

Give us our moment in the rugby and you can have it in the cricket Wink

I really hope you're taking this as joshing mates! Very Happy

by aucklandlaurie Wed 26 Jun 2013, 2:31 am

Cyril on 606v2 wrote:
aucklandlaurie wrote:
Ive never heard of London. especially not in the Wellington area.
Don't worry. There's a whole world of glass collecting waiting for you.

Dont understand, why would I want to collect glasses.

by dallym Wed 26 Jun 2013, 4:35 am

Was AWOP the GG too?

by Guest Wed 26 Jun 2013, 8:46 am

dallym wrote:Was AWOP the GG too?

Of course. Laurie knows this too, as he didn't want the old AWOP banned.

I don't know why Ghostie and Hersh can't just keep low profiles if they're so desperate to come back

by nganboy Wed 26 Jun 2013, 10:24 am

Look we know all this stuff about citing and cards is pointless bickering.
I mentioned how I thought the BOD/Umaga/Mealamu incident was nothing. Beshocked belittles any possible opinion I might have about that because I'm a kiwi. I suggest Umaga could have got a card for a trip and spear later in the game - that is ignored because it doesn't fit with Beshocked racist taunt.
How many people really believe they can have an unbiased opinion about things like this. How many times do people admit that their heroes did wrong I didn't see any Aussies saying Horwill should get done (to be fair it seems a couple of Lions fans were able to say their might be some doubt).

by Sponsored content