When will Zebre win a match?

First topic message reminder :

29 losses on the bounce and not so much as a draw but still (under current rules) worthy of an EC place.

Surely this is a joke side.

47% for Ulster - they have won it. 52 wins in 110 matches.

Also have they have improved recently.

39.6% for Castres. 23 wins in 28 matches.

They do have to qualify though. Don't get qualification handed on a platter.

the-goon I do understand the different structure. I already mentioned the differences. Perhaps you should read each of my posts fully.

Result would be semi pro clubs? How do you work that out?

Yes the Irish were really successful in the HC last season weren't they?

4 auto places for Irish clubs. That's a joke of course.

33% win for Connacht in the HC is poor too.

In terms of win % Leinster and Munster carry the other two regions - 67% and 70% respectively.


Just to make it fair. The English teams with a win % above both Connacht and Ulster in the HC.

Tigers - 65.8%
Wasps - 65.3%
Sarries - 61%
Gloucester - 60.3%
Saints - 59.7%
Bath - 59.7%

Jenifer at least those clubs actually qualify by merit. They don't have auto qualification. Plus have played nowhere near the amount of HC games as most Pro12 teams.

Plus Montpellier's win record of 46% is almost as good as Ulster.

Jenifer McLadyboy wrote:What about the french? Only 3 of their clubs take the HC seriously at all.

Why not just let Clermont, Toulon and Toulouse in. Let the rest "prove themselves" in the Amlin.

Montpelier "rolled over" for Toulon last year. Racing , Castres etc have done regularly.

Even in their own league away matches are things the top plsyers hear about but never see unless the coach wants them to prove something. Always overlooked because they have a real league with real teams.

What we could do is give six places to ireland and six to england and france based on winning strenght over the last 10years.. Then 50% to the other three. Ireland can then allocate them how they wish which would be to give one to each of the other Rabo unions as they help us out. Then keep the two winner spots. Oh wait thats what we have.

As I said Brendan in terms of win % - Leinster and Munster still carry Ulster and Connacht on their shoulders.

beshocked wrote:47% for Ulster - they have won it. 52 wins in 110 matches.

Also have they have improved recently.

39.6% for Castres. 23 wins in 28 matches.

They do have to qualify though. Don't get qualification handed on a platter.

the-goon I do understand the different structure. I already mentioned the differences. Perhaps you should read each of my posts fully.

Result would be semi pro clubs? How do you work that out?

Yes the Irish were really successful in the HC last season weren't they?

4 auto places for Irish clubs. That's a joke of course.

33% win for Connacht in the HC is poor too.

In terms of win % Leinster and Munster carry the other two regions - 67% and 70% respectively.


Just to make it fair. The English teams with a win % above both Connacht and Ulster in the HC.

Tigers - 65.8%
Wasps - 65.3%
Sarries - 61%
Gloucester - 60.3%
Saints - 59.7%
Bath - 59.7%

So its ok to take ulsters recent form but not glasgow or edinburgh.

Look Zebre are an up and coming team who are only going to get better as they give places to the rising italian players.
The Rabo has allowed the Rabo countries to improve at both u20 and A and Senior levels.  It is growing stronger each year with more money and more attendances.  It like the HC are growing each year and will get the four nations in a strong position.

One thing that could be pointed out is the country with an organisation like the PRL is the one going backwards at club level

beshocked wrote:47% for Ulster - they have won it. 52 wins in 110 matches.

Also have they have improved recently.

39.6% for Castres. 23 wins in 28 matches.

They do have to qualify though. Don't get qualification handed on a platter.

the-goon I do understand the different structure. I already mentioned the differences. Perhaps you should read each of my posts fully.

Result would be semi pro clubs? How do you work that out?

Yes the Irish were really successful in the HC last season weren't they?

4 auto places for Irish clubs. That's a joke of course.

33% win for Connacht in the HC is poor too.

In terms of win % Leinster and Munster carry the other two regions - 67% and 70% respectively.


Just to make it fair. The English teams with a win % above both Connacht and Ulster in the HC.

Tigers - 65.8%
Wasps - 65.3%
Sarries - 61%
Gloucester - 60.3%
Saints - 59.7%
Bath - 59.7%

Ulster made the QF, Munster got to the semis and Leinster went on to win the Amlin after our injury raveaged HC campaign. Hardly a poor season in Europe??? An english team hasnt won it since 07.

beshocked wrote:As I said Brendan in terms of win % - Leinster and Munster still carry Ulster and Connacht on their shoulders.

And look at the wonders that HC rugby has done for Ulster and Connacht.

Ulster are now one of the best sides in Europe and Connacht have improved no end and are continuing to improve. 3 or 4 years ago Connacht had 400 season ticket holders... They now have over 3000. Thats largely down to being in the HC which has raised the profile of the sport in the west.

Brendan we are talking about the HC

Zebre - an up and coming side with 0 wins?

Remind me who won the U20s world cup?


Leinsterfan4life you could interpret it that way or alternatively:

Munster scraping into the quarter finals as a best runners up, managed to beat a Quins team who hit the implosion button at the end of last season.

Ulster dominated by Sarries in their HC quarter final despite an impressive travelling support to cheer them on.

Leinster dumped out of the HC in the pool stages.

Worse than the English sides.

English side hasn't won it since 2007 yet 6 of our sides have a far higher win % than Ulster and Connacht.

Probably most of the others are higher than Connacht too but I didn't post them.

beshocked wrote:Brendan we are talking about the HC

Zebre - an up and coming side with 0 wins?

Remind me who won the U20s world cup?


Leinsterfan4life you could interpret it that way or alternatively:

Munster scraping into the quarter finals as a best runners up, managed to beat a Quins team who hit the implosion button at the end of last season.

Ulster dominated by Sarries in their HC quarter final despite an impressive travelling support to cheer them on.

Leinster dumped out of the HC in the pool stages.

Worse than the English sides.

English side hasn't won it since 2007 yet 6 of our sides have a far higher win % than Ulster and Connacht.

Probably most of the others are higher than Connacht too but I didn't post them.

Ha, ha What on earth has that to do with the price of bread? Realistically how many of them will make it past the foreign journeymen that lie in their way at the clubs?

At least it's just the one Italian team people are arguing shouldn't be in the HC now, it was the two of them up to recently that weren't good enough. Now Treviso have improved to a required standard. Zebre are one year old! It takes time to build an identity and experience to compete with established sides.

By playing in the HC they will improve just like Treviso have.

AsLongAsBut100ofUs wrote:When do they play Embra?

Damn you Asbo, I was just about to say that.

Golden if we take that approach then why are most Pro12 sides still underperforming in the HC.

There is no guarantee Zebre will improve in the HC.

leinsterfan4life

Yes it's only taken Ulster over 10 years to improve. To be fair at least it has happened.

Perhaps a 33% win ratio is seen as impressive by some but it is not in my opinion. I doubt that win ratio will change this season in the HC.

alasbut100ofus it's to do with more competition and better quality in the AP as a whole. Pro12 sides have a smaller pool of players hence it's easier to be fast tracked.

I only brought up the u20s to show we are keeping pace. Yes England won it but the Rabo unions are improving it wont be long before there are 2 strong teams in italy and scotland.

The roots are good in the Rabo to grow in strenght just as they have been. France and Aus are falling at underage which will feed through in some way or another.

On win ratios you are looking at it wrong.

Teir 1 expected to get a 5-6 wins in the group stagez
Teir 2 expected to get 3-4 wins in the group stages
Teir 3 1-3
Teir 4 1

You would have to look at average teir place. Munster leinster tigers and toulous have been at the top for most of it so should have 80% in the groups. Percentages get messed up once you take in the knockouts.

So Connacht were expected to win 2-4 games out of 12 which is 17-33% so they are at the upper level of where they would be expected. We do have teirs for a reason.

You do realise that to go from one of the worst to one of the best in 10 years is really good??

LeinsterFan4life wrote:You do realise that  to go from one of the worst to one of the best in 10 years is really good??

The problem Zebre face is that the bottom team from each nation has to always improve like this year. As a result the three teams above them have all strenghtened. The next set of teams from that country then have to improve so they are not the worse in their country. As a result the rabo is always getting stronger

Also should be pointed out that glasgow and Connacht have nearly doubled attendances in the last three years (i think)

Seems that it doesn't really matter now from this evening's news. Zebre are gonners from the new EC on offer unless their performances suddenly get transformed - or the Rabo goes it alone.

beshocked wrote:

LeinsterFan4life wrote:A better question would be when will an english team win the HC again?

Leinster fan remind us how Leinster did in the HC last season compared to the English contingent?

This season I think. With Saints,Leicester and Sarries they have 3 very strong contenders.  I think all three are stronger than last season too.

Portnoys Complaint I agree with you. It's disappointing that Zebre are in the HC. No one wants to see a side being repeatedly beaten. The Amlin is their level.

Eh, so you're saying that Leinster shouldn't be in the a european competition because of their poor results compared to English sides?  I guess it is an argument alright.  I can't even remember all those boring HC games involving irish teams over the life of the competition.  Sky always moaning about having to cover those boring and uneventful matches.  When have Leinster (or indeed Munster or Ulster) ever provided any highlights or memorable moments?  I guess its a waste of time having those representatives from the IRFU in a european comp.

I suppose the Rabo will have to decide their own non-negotiable conundrum on their own I guess. That 'posturing bluff' wasn't, it seems, a bluff at all.

Brendan it's not as simplistic as you make out. Tiers mean little. Didn't Ulster reach their HC final as tier 3? Sarries topped their pool and got HC semi as a tier 3. Qualifying is far more dependent on strength of pools.

It's fair to say Leinster didn't qualify for the HC quarter finals because they had a tough group. A decent side qualifies in an average group.

I feel that Toulouse and Sarries have an unfair advantage with their pool. Both sides would expect at least 5 wins irrespective of tier. Both should be far stronger than Connacht and Zebre. I don't think that's particulary fair on the other HC competitors.

You obviously think winning 33% is good. Perhaps that's why pro12 sides do so poor in general in the HC. They take that attitude.

Connacht of course can take pride from beating Zebre twice. No other side did that in the HC or Pro12 last season!

Not difficult to double an attendance when it is so low in the first place.


The bandwagon society I never said that. Just responding to a snarky comment from a Leinster fan. Of course Leinster are one of the best sides in Europe. Perhaps read some of my other comments too. Questioning zebre's place in the HC is different to leinster's!

I don't want to see the HC break up but the Pro12 are being far too stubborn in negotiations.

Beshocked, you just don't get it do you. What you want will turn rugby into into football. Soulless, international game dead in the water, and only a handful of clubs with all the cash and success. If you want that, fine, then we have a fundemental difference how we want rugby to develop. I guess you don't care as your club has a suger daddy that can shell out for the best talent. It really is quite pathetic, almost as pathetic as English clubs complaining about "fairness" when they stop winning.

Do you care that Italy and Scotland may regress and become 2 semi pro teams that won't get within 50 points of the big 5? Or that 2nd tier teams (Georgia, Russia, Fiji, Samoa) will never be able to field a full strength team because of club commitments? How do you not see that is the road PRL is leading you down?

Well done to Zebre for a convincing victory and to the 6 posters that got the right prediction:thumbsup: 

Congrats to them. They were close to doing it many times last season so it was bound to come sooner or later.

the-goon wrote:Beshocked, you just don't get it do you. What you want will turn rugby into into football. Soulless, international game dead in the water, and only a handful of clubs with all the cash and success. If you want that, fine, then we have a fundemental difference how we want rugby to develop. I guess you don't care as your club has a suger daddy that can shell out for the best talent. It really is quite pathetic, almost as pathetic as English clubs complaining about "fairness" when they stop winning.

Do you care that Italy and Scotland may regress and become 2 semi pro teams that won't get within 50 points of the big 5? Or that 2nd tier teams (Georgia, Russia, Fiji, Samoa) will never be able to field a full strength team because of club commitments? How do you not see that is the road PRL is leading you down?

can I just say in all the crap written about the HC this is the best post I have seen concerning what's happening..well said.

And well done Zebre.

Absolutely delighted for Zebre. The first win is the hardest. More will follow now.

ME-109 wrote:

the-goon wrote:Beshocked, you just don't get it do you. What you want will turn rugby into into football. Soulless, international game dead in the water, and only a handful of clubs with all the cash and success. If you want that, fine, then we have a fundemental difference how we want rugby to develop. I guess you don't care as your club has a suger daddy that can shell out for the best talent. It really is quite pathetic, almost as pathetic as English clubs complaining about "fairness" when they stop winning.

Do you care that Italy and Scotland may regress and become 2 semi pro teams that won't get within 50 points of the big 5? Or that 2nd tier teams (Georgia, Russia, Fiji, Samoa) will never be able to field a full strength team because of club commitments? How do you not see that is the road PRL is leading you down?

can I just say in all the crap written about the HC this is the best post I have seen concerning what's happening..well said.

I 100% endorse this message. Spot on.

Great result and also Treviso doing a job on Munster.

Best league in Europe.

justified sinner wrote:Great result and also Treviso doing a job on Munster.

Best league in Europe.

+ 1. I can't see the Franglo's being able to handle the 'Celts & Italians' come the 6 Nations.

 

Had a feeling it would come away from home, last season i noticed they played with more intensity away than at home.

Well done and hopefully they build a fan base from here.

Notch wrote:

ME-109 wrote:

the-goon wrote:Beshocked, you just don't get it do you. What you want will turn rugby into into football. Soulless, international game dead in the water, and only a handful of clubs with all the cash and success. If you want that, fine, then we have a fundemental difference how we want rugby to develop. I guess you don't care as your club has a suger daddy that can shell out for the best talent. It really is quite pathetic, almost as pathetic as English clubs complaining about "fairness" when they stop winning.

Do you care that Italy and Scotland may regress and become 2 semi pro teams that won't get within 50 points of the big 5? Or that 2nd tier teams (Georgia, Russia, Fiji, Samoa) will never be able to field a full strength team because of club commitments? How do you not see that is the road PRL is leading you down?

can I just say in all the crap written about the HC this is the best post I have seen concerning what's happening..well said.

I 100% endorse this message. Spot on.

+1

justified sinner wrote:

Notch wrote:

ME-109 wrote:

the-goon wrote:Beshocked, you just don't get it do you. What you want will turn rugby into into football. Soulless, international game dead in the water, and only a handful of clubs with all the cash and success. If you want that, fine, then we have a fundemental difference how we want rugby to develop. I guess you don't care as your club has a suger daddy that can shell out for the best talent. It really is quite pathetic, almost as pathetic as English clubs complaining about "fairness" when they stop winning.

Do you care that Italy and Scotland may regress and become 2 semi pro teams that won't get within 50 points of the big 5? Or that 2nd tier teams (Georgia, Russia, Fiji, Samoa) will never be able to field a full strength team because of club commitments? How do you not see that is the road PRL is leading you down?

can I just say in all the crap written about the HC this is the best post I have seen concerning what's happening..well said.

I 100% endorse this message. Spot on.

+1

Fair play the-goon

Just about sums up a Rugby fan PoV. Forget National, Regional, Club.... just Rugby. +1 ad infinitum.

Oh and well done Zebre, fantastic result

Man Cardiff must be shocking

Who are Zebre's next opponents and what are the chances of two on the bounce?

They are at home to Glasgow next, Glasgow are winning but not setting the world alight at the minute. They seem to have veered from an out and out attacking game last season to having impenetrable defence this season. If Zebre have a bit of confidence now though they could start raking up more wins.

Well done Zebre - they where always going to break the duck at some point but Cardiff away was a total surprise. They must have played well. Hats off to Treviso as well. A good weekend for Italian Rugby in the Pro 12.

Notch wrote:

ME-109 wrote:

the-goon wrote:Beshocked, you just don't get it do you. What you want will turn rugby into into football. Soulless, international game dead in the water, and only a handful of clubs with all the cash and success. If you want that, fine, then we have a fundemental difference how we want rugby to develop. I guess you don't care as your club has a suger daddy that can shell out for the best talent. It really is quite pathetic, almost as pathetic as English clubs complaining about "fairness" when they stop winning.

Do you care that Italy and Scotland may regress and become 2 semi pro teams that won't get within 50 points of the big 5? Or that 2nd tier teams (Georgia, Russia, Fiji, Samoa) will never be able to field a full strength team because of club commitments? How do you not see that is the road PRL is leading you down?

can I just say in all the crap written about the HC this is the best post I have seen concerning what's happening..well said.

I 100% endorse this message. Spot on.

 

Portnoy wrote:29 losses on the bounce and not so much as a draw but still (under current rules) worthy of an EC place.

Surely this is a joke side.

See me eat humble pie.
I prostrate myself to all and sundry. A win away in Cardiff is no mean feat.

Is it?

Portnoy's Complaint wrote:

Portnoy wrote:29 losses on the bounce and not so much as a draw but still (under current rules) worthy of an EC place.

Surely this is a joke side.

See me eat humble pie.
I prostrate myself to all and sundry. A win away in Cardiff is no mean feat.

Is it?

Well it would be no exaggeration to say that the Blues having sent 4 Lions on tour last season doesn't give you a fair impression of the quality of the rest of their squad. They've been mismanaged, they've made a few dodgy signings and they lack genuine class in several positions. They are in a bit of disarray and could seriously lose out to the Dragons.

Even so, this is a game that should have been well within their powers to win and it represents a bit of a coup for Zebre. Zebre were never as bad as you made out you know- they've come close to beating better sides than the Blues. What it is confidence, familiarity and the psychological burden of not having won. They just need to get better at seeing out games when they are in a winning position and they'll pick up a few more scalps.

Maybe two Italian sides will qualify by right for the EC.

I reckon that the scrap to get into the top six (or God forbid, eight) will inject a greater intensity into Rabble.

Notch wrote:

Portnoy's Complaint wrote:

Portnoy wrote:29 losses on the bounce and not so much as a draw but still (under current rules) worthy of an EC place.

Surely this is a joke side.

See me eat humble pie.
I prostrate myself to all and sundry. A win away in Cardiff is no mean feat.

Is it?

Well it would be no exaggeration to say that the Blues having sent 4 Lions on tour last season doesn't give you a fair impression of the quality of the rest of their squad. They've been mismanaged, they've made a few dodgy signings and they lack genuine class in several positions. They are in a bit of disarray and could seriously lose out to the Dragons.

Even so, this is a game that should have been well within their powers to win and it represents a bit of a coup for Zebre. Zebre were never as bad as you made out you know- they've come close to beating better sides than the Blues. What it is confidence, familiarity and the psychological burden of not having won. They just need to get better at seeing out games when they are in a winning position and they'll pick up a few more scalps.

Surely not - I thought the Pro 12 qualification was not done as a meritocracy?!  

the-goon wrote:Beshocked, you just don't get it do you. What you want will turn rugby into into football. Soulless, international game dead in the water, and only a handful of clubs with all the cash and success. If you want that, fine, then we have a fundemental difference how we want rugby to develop. I guess you don't care as your club has a suger daddy that can shell out for the best talent. It really is quite pathetic, almost as pathetic as English clubs complaining about "fairness" when they stop winning.

Do you care that Italy and Scotland may regress and become 2 semi pro teams that won't get within 50 points of the big 5? Or that 2nd tier teams (Georgia, Russia, Fiji, Samoa) will never be able to field a full strength team because of club commitments? How do you not see that is the road PRL is leading you down?

Great tub-thumping, but baseless nonsense.

The ideas that a union receiving at least the same amount of money as currently (a lesser share of a larger pot), that the Amlin is the death of a club and that a side going down to it will result in the crumbling of that union are such empty conclusions it's absurd.

Congratulations to Zebre by the way.  Just think how much quicker they'd be progressing if they were benefitting from more more competitve matches against sides closer to their level in the Amlin, with an actual chance of reaching the knockout stages rather than having to focus on not being embarrassed by conceeding more than 50 points to teams like Harlequins.

Is the result not under investigation due to (correct) allegations that Zebre had an extra player on the pitch at a vital moment?

If Zebre were in the Amlin they wouldnt be able to afford players like Leonard. Some of you lads really need to get a grip of reality. These teams aren't made of money.

The money and experience from playing HC rugby is essential for the development of these teams. Just look at Treviso, once whipping boys just like Zebre but are now a frightning prospect to play away from home.

LeinsterFan4life wrote:If Zebre were in the Amlin they wouldnt be able to afford players like Leonard. Some of you lads really need to get a grip of reality. These teams aren't made of money.

The money and experience from playing HC rugby is essential for the development of these teams. Just look at Treviso, once whipping boys just like Zebre but are now a frightning prospect to play away from home.

The unions don't receive money from the ERC based on whether their teams are in the Heineken or the Amlin, they get money for European involvement irrespective of what cup their teams are playing in.  If Zebre got less money for playing in the Amlin that would be down to the FIR.

In terms of gate receipts, the experience of French & English clubs is that the numbers aren't miles apart, the fans still come.  Take Toulon as an example.  In 2011-12 they were in the Amlin and had attendances of 13,000 against Newcastle, 14,000 against Lyon.  In 2012-13 they were in the Heineken and had attendances of 12,500 against Montpelier, 14,000 against Sale.

And with a greater likelihood of progressing from the pool stage in the Amlin they have the potential to earn more money from extra game receipts and ERC bonus payments.

People are rightly congratulating Zebre and saying how much they will gain and learn from this win. That's exactly why they should be in the Amlin. The suggested change to the qualification process would have seen both Zebre and Cardiff in the Amlin this season along with similar placed teams, there would be more chance of these sort of wins and all that they do in bringing a side on. Once they've mastered that level and learnt what it takes to consistently win they'll have given themselves the foundation to make the step up to the top tier.

hawalsh wrote:People are rightly congratulating Zebre and saying how much they will gain and learn from this win.  That's exactly why they should be in the Amlin.  The suggested change to the qualification process would have seen both Zebre and Cardiff in the Amlin this season along with similar placed teams, there would be more chance of these sort of wins and all that they do in bringing a side on.  Once they've mastered that level and learnt what it takes to consistently win they'll have given themselves the foundation to make the step up to the top tier.

Yawn.
Regardless of the crap over qualification to the HC or amlin the fact is its much more interesting to have Italian sides in the HC than some no hopers from ingerland or France

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dt1g3KBkZOU&list=PLclPnIJd8nRsZ9L8OyTAqUxwieqU3ixmT

So apparently Zebre had a prop sin-binned and brought on a replacement prop without bringing anyone off  

Notch wrote:https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dt1g3KBkZOU&list=PLclPnIJd8nRsZ9L8OyTAqUxwieqU3ixmT

So apparently Zebre had a prop sin-binned and brought on a replacement prop without bringing anyone off  

oops!

Notch wrote:https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dt1g3KBkZOU&list=PLclPnIJd8nRsZ9L8OyTAqUxwieqU3ixmT

So apparently Zebre had a prop sin-binned and brought on a replacement prop without bringing anyone off  

Yes but that didn't win them the game. They played well, played really good rugby and deserved the first of what will be a number of good wins this season.

Who was the ref? Surely the officials will be sanctioned