Who will the English fans and media blame if England dont win the Brazil 2014 World Cup?

First topic message reminder :

Just a quick poll to see who you think the English fans and media will blame if they dont win it

My money is on Roy Hodgson


Cheers

"I think Barca and Real would smash half the EPL 6-0 every week too. "


The strength of the PL is much higher all over.. however they are better than any PL club(as i would also add bayern to that obviously!!),

We can't ever contemplate spanish ticka tacka stuff. German football on the other hand is certainly much closer and just a better version of ours anyway(internationally! not domestically!)- And IMO the much better way of playing the game anyway

Oakey,as I've just said to Stella, it's about experiencing the style more often than mimicking it.

For starters England don't have the skill or patience for it and it wouldn't be the England "way", but they might be able to counteract it better had they a few players who were up against it every week by playing in Spain or Germany, and who knows, might help them retain the ball a little bit better than they do so they are less likely to concede that goal they frequently do whilst 1-0 up.

super_realist wrote:What I'm saying Stella is that having broader experience across more than one League might benefit England players.

Obviously it's unrealistic to expect or even want England to play like Spain, but having greater experience of teams who play in their style (or Germany's style) might help them cope better when they come up against those teams.
Simple.

Yes, it could do. tbh, I don't think it will make much difference, as your average England player comes up against cosmopolitan players, managers in the EPL every week.

they experience the style here- i mean you have to understand that our players dont just play in our league they also play in europe(and europe isn't just the CL!!)

also the PL is a melting pot of styles, in spain and germany is very rigid in reality. They have there own style and every team likes to play to it. Yes the Pl brand is a very exiting style(and many teams play that style)

however many also dont. We have to say that chelsea have allways been the more italian style, arsenal the spanish/french, man u the classic PL style.. Then you ahve other teams out there - just watch a swansea norwich game that can show up some exceptional football as well..(you wouldn't get a game that high quality with mid table teams else where .

I think you are putting too much emphasis on foreign leagues to be honest.

I think the germans and spanish produce more players than us and there top clubs(bayern and barca) have such an identity that mirrors their international teams that those clubs are very much part of their success internationally..

Sadly we just dont have that team that have enough english players in it that is also the top of the pile(obviously Man u has aided england massively in the past- the nevilles, becks, scholes, sheringham, butt etc) but not quite in the same way anymore!

Yes Stella, but the style of play in the Premiership (Arsenal) aside (who haven't won a trophy in an epoch) doesn't translate well to International Football for the England boys.

I'm not saying they have to start playing like Spain or like Germany, but playing up against that style more often in club football isn't going to do your international game any harm.

I don't think playing against Palace, Hull, Southampton, Newcastle, Fulham, Norwich, Stoke, Cardiff, Sunderland or West Ham makes the top England players better internationally.

mystiroakey wrote:they experience the style here- i mean you have to understand that our players dont just play in our league they also play in europe(and europe isn't just the CL!!)

also the PL is a melting pot of styles, in spain and germany is very rigid in reality. They have there own style and every team likes to play to it. Yes the Pl brand is a very exiting style(and many teams play that style)

however many also dont. We have to say that chelsea have allways been the more italian style, arsenal the spanish/french, man u the classic PL style.. Then you ahve other teams out there - just watch a swansea norwich game that can show up some exceptional football as well..(you wouldn't get a game that high quality with mid table teams else where .

I think you are putting too much emphasis on foreign leagues to be honest.

I think the germans and spanish produce more players than us and there top clubs(bayern and barca) have such an identity that mirrors their international teams that those clubs are very much part of their success internationally..

Sadly we just dont have that team that have enough english players in it that is also the top of the pile(obviously Man u has aided england massively in the past- the nevilles, becks, scholes, sheringham, butt etc) but not quite in the same way anymore!

How do you know you wouldn't Oakey? When did you last watch a mid table Bundesliga game or a game from La Liga that didn't feature Barca or Real?

It wasn't that long ago when teams like Man U and Liverpool were crammed full of British players, but that didn't help the England team.

I think the who situation is too complicated to pin it on one thing, being insular though never helped any team.

"It wasn't that long ago when teams like Man U and Liverpool were crammed full of British players, but that didn't help the England team."


yes it did!!


"When did you last watch a mid table Bundesliga game or a game from La Liga that didn't feature Barca or Real?"]
when was the last time you watched any game from any league?

One thing I will say (type) is, playing for one club, in your own country can make you to comfortable. A couple of years abroad can toughen you up, and give you a new challenge. Whether this will help England is debatable.

mystiroakey wrote:"It wasn't that long ago when teams like Man U and Liverpool were crammed full of British players, but that didn't help the England team."


yes it did!!


"When did you last watch a mid table Bundesliga game or a game from La Liga that didn't feature Barca or Real?"]
when was the last time you watched any game from any league?

1966 was a long time ago Oakey.

I'd agree Stella,
I despise Gerrard, but he's a good player who has wasted his potential at one very poor club, content to be a whale in a puddle. He'll probably dine out on Istanbul and the FA Cup final against West Ham forever, but you can't help think he may have achieved a lot more elsewhere.

He's a perfect example of someone who should have gotten out of his comfort zone.

are you saying the last time you watched a game was in 1966?

Or are you implying that was the last time n english league team helped out the international team?

I can believe the first, not the second.

"I despise Gerrard, but he's a good player who has wasted his potential at one very poor club"
gerrard was forced to stay in liverpool mate. he wanted out, he was threatened

Tell me when England succeeded on the back of having lots of English players in their top teams then?

mystiroakey wrote:"I despise Gerrard, but he's a good player who has wasted his potential at one very poor club"
gerrard was forced to stay in liverpool mate. he wanted out, he was threatened

DOn't be ridiculous. He's a footballer, not the mafia

1990 , 1996.

we played well in both tourneys- that is success for me.. If people only thought success was about winning a cup then there wouldn't be football in any shape or form. Its a very rare thing to win a WC, but there are still billions of fans..

He only wanted out to Chelsea though. Still, Liverpool and Chelsea are like two different countries  

super_realist wrote:

mystiroakey wrote:"I despise Gerrard, but he's a good player who has wasted his potential at one very poor club"
gerrard was forced to stay in liverpool mate. he wanted out, he was threatened

DOn't be ridiculous. He's a footballer, not the mafia

incorrect, he is linked with people that are gangsters . Yes.

Its all documented..

he was hours away from signing and in london, and then his family were threatened and that was it..

Oakey, and every other country was exactly the same. Lots of their own players in their own leagues top teams.
What about the intervening years of 92 (home before the postcards) and 94 (didn't qualify)
Was the English team helped by lots of domestic based players then?

ANyway SR is actually talking nonsense.
Because the CL is arguably one the the top 5 biggest prizes in any sport in the world!! that is how big it is..And he single handed got the team back from 3-0 down to win the final!!


That is roy of the rovers stuff!

mystiroakey wrote:

super_realist wrote:

mystiroakey wrote:"I despise Gerrard, but he's a good player who has wasted his potential at one very poor club"
gerrard was forced to stay in liverpool mate. he wanted out, he was threatened

DOn't be ridiculous. He's a footballer, not the mafia

incorrect, he is linked with people that are gangsters . Yes.

Its all documented..

he was hours away from signing and in london, and then his family were threatened and that was it..

Shows just how sad and pathetic certain people can be.
If he'd signed for another team, I'm pretty sure they would have the resources to protect him.

super_realist wrote:Oakey, and every other country was exactly the same. Lots of their own players in their own leagues top teams.
What about the intervening years of 92 (home before the postcards) and 94 (didn't qualify)
Was the English team helped by lots of domestic based players then?

its a tough game football- way to many teams out there, and we play so many other sports.. you can't expect to be the best- thats nonsense!!

but I can certainly expect my team to be one of the top 10 teams year in year out and actually play attractive football!!- due to our standing and infrastructure in the game

mystiroakey wrote:ANyway SR is actually talking nonsense.
Because the CL is arguably one the the top 5 biggest prizes in any sport in the world!! that is how big it is..And he single handed got the team back from 3-0 down to win the final!!


That is roy of the rovers stuff!

Precisely, and he would have had a better chance of many more opportunities to win more of such trophies at a bigger, better club.

mystiroakey wrote:

super_realist wrote:Oakey, and every other country was exactly the same. Lots of their own players in their own leagues top teams.
What about the intervening years of 92 (home before the postcards) and 94 (didn't qualify)
Was the English team helped by lots of domestic based players then?

its a tough game football- way to many teams out there, and we play so many other sports.. you can't expect to be the best- thats nonsense!!

but I can certainly expect my team to be one of the top 10 teams year in year out and actually play attractive football!!- due to our standing and infrastructure in the game

Strange then that given the resources they frequently aren't top ten and more often than not don't put in attractive performances.

super_realist wrote:

mystiroakey wrote:

super_realist wrote:

mystiroakey wrote:"I despise Gerrard, but he's a good player who has wasted his potential at one very poor club"
gerrard was forced to stay in liverpool mate. he wanted out, he was threatened

DOn't be ridiculous. He's a footballer, not the mafia

incorrect, he is linked with people that are gangsters . Yes.

Its all documented..

he was hours away from signing and in london, and then his family were threatened and that was it..

Shows just how sad and pathetic certain people can be.
If he'd signed for another team, I'm pretty sure they would have the resources to protect him.

Look i am not a scouse gangster and the info may be false- but as i said . everyone seems to know this as fact.. and there is a lot of evidence that proves he is linked(he has been a witness many times for gangsters during court hearings as well).

Anyway back to the scouse part of it. If your family lives by them rules and everyone you know lives by them rules its a hard thing to break away from..

super_realist wrote:

mystiroakey wrote:

super_realist wrote:Oakey, and every other country was exactly the same. Lots of their own players in their own leagues top teams.
What about the intervening years of 92 (home before the postcards) and 94 (didn't qualify)
Was the English team helped by lots of domestic based players then?

its a tough game football- way to many teams out there, and we play so many other sports.. you can't expect to be the best- thats nonsense!!

but I can certainly expect my team to be one of the top 10 teams year in year out and actually play attractive football!!- due to our standing and infrastructure in the game

Strange then that given the resources they frequently aren't top ten and more often than not don't put in attractive performances.

and that is what we hate..

we expect more and i think that expectation is fair as well. However we shouldn't expect to be the best(with nations like germany, brazil, argentina, italy and spain out there)

Come on Oakey. Think of the players from Argentina, Brazil, Columbia and Italy who have had a lot worse to deal with than jobless scouse benefit cheats on their backs.

mystiroakey wrote:

super_realist wrote:

mystiroakey wrote:

super_realist wrote:Oakey, and every other country was exactly the same. Lots of their own players in their own leagues top teams.
What about the intervening years of 92 (home before the postcards) and 94 (didn't qualify)
Was the English team helped by lots of domestic based players then?

its a tough game football- way to many teams out there, and we play so many other sports.. you can't expect to be the best- thats nonsense!!

but I can certainly expect my team to be one of the top 10 teams year in year out and actually play attractive football!!- due to our standing and infrastructure in the game

Strange then that given the resources they frequently aren't top ten and more often than not don't put in attractive performances.

and that is what we hate..

we expect more and i think that expectation is fair as well. However we shouldn't expect to be the best(with nations like germany, brazil, argentina, italy and spain out there)

I agree with that, but I don't think you can expect to be top 10, and play attractive football if England carry on doing the things they have always done.

I think we agree something has to change, we don't agree what it is, although Hodgson seems like the man who is at least making incremental changes against a couple of poor teams.

I think we are changing and quite fast actually.

the philosophy of the game is changing the most- There are deffo signs of technical ability over strength coming through in the age group games.. The last under 21 game was a fest on the eyes

Well, we shall see. I think judgement has to be reserved until the World CUp.

If they can put in a better perfomance against a better team than Poland and there are more positives to be taken I'd be inclined to agree.

Still don't think it would do any harm for the guys who play for sub-top English teams like Southampton and Everton to go play abroad though.

Maybe they would, but i think playing abroad is just a natural progression from getting more talent in the first place..

And i also think that its more about getting players like defoe or zaha etc into teams that actually play them every game!!(that could just be at lesser clubs rather than european ones) will make a much bigger impact

I mean if we are talking about sending the subs over to play in europe- GREAT!

if we are talking about players like lambert or baines(two talents at the two teams you mentioned) then i can't see any improvement at all, just that the PL will lose out on quality, and i can't see how baines will get better internationally at all. The guy hasnt put a foot wrong yet and neither has lambert to be fair to him either(for his comparative skill level which is naturally lower)

Would people stand for players being picked from Norwich and Cardiff?

There's a lot of wasted talent in England though, no doubt about that. If they weren't so greedy and cossetted though it would help.
Content to play reserve football and collect the money.

mystiroakey wrote:I mean if we are talking about sending the subs over to play in europe- GREAT!

if we are talking about players like lambert or baines(two talents at the two teams you mentioned) then i can't see any improvement at all, just that the PL will lose out on quality, and i can't see how baines will get better internationally at all. The guy hasnt put a foot wrong yet and neither has lambert to be fair to him either(for his comparative skill level which is naturally lower)

My point is them being able to read the game better if they were exposed to different styles of football. Imporovement isn't just about what you do with the ball at your feet.
Neither of these guys play CL and both have made only a small number of appearances for England so are rather cocooned in the PL.

I actually rate them both and would like Baines to take over from the vastly over-rated Scumbag Cole.

The good thing about the pl over many other leagues is that it is diverse in it's own right.. I am not saying the players wouldn't gain at all. But we don't have enough actually playing is my bigger concern. And when we get more depth(if) then players will naturally play abroad in larger numbers.

No-one in their right mind should be blaming anyone, as England have no realistic chance of winning the tournament.

We're not a seeded country for starters, and will be certain to face at least one of the top 8 in the group stages.

For another, the squad is relatively young and inexperienced, compared to the so-called "Golden Generation" that never made it past the quarter-finals of the last several World Cups and Euros...Gerrard, Rooney and Lampard being about the only survivors.

So, in summary, any public outcry at us NOT winning the tournament should be met with facepalms and derision.

the Media doesn't work on a 'sane' premise..

The more out there article is the more people want to read the darn things!!

Oh and Ashley Cole dude!!

Yes baines is coming on trumps but he is guaranteed a squad place- and the way tournies and build ups to tournies go we may even play both at some point in the WC..

I am not suggesting going for a rigid 442 however cole and baines on the left in that system on this form would be very effective

I think the whole country would prefer a Cole-Baines combo over playing one plus Welbeck or God forbid Cleverley on the left.

See how effective the Cole-Bertrand combo was in the UCL final.

yes i think especially after the last two games baines could take that advanced role on.

and possibly a very good option against the better teams

I think most English football fans would love to see both Cole and Baines down the left, with Baines as the winger. I do hope Roy Hodgson tries it in any one of the five friendlies we have before the world cup.