Ireland V Australia

by Jenifer McLadyboy Mon 11 Nov 2013, 15:59

First topic message reminder :

ME-109 wrote:All water under the bridge now....Aus up next which will be interesting...someone start a thread

How hard was that..........

by toml Tue 12 Nov 2013, 07:12

Sin é wrote:
littlejohn wrote:
gleesonisgod wrote:
littlejohn wrote:
Gibson wrote:Ahj here Goose, favourtism is not Schmidts way. He likes to win, and to do that, he fits pieces of the jigsaw together to ensure he does. And he changes it, in key areas, for different types of opposition. Huge shift from Kidney.

If Joe plays Dorce, its because he is the best option to fit his plan. Its as simple as that.
I thought darcy played well - some nice steps and generally made yards whenever he had to. we are in need of someone like Bowe having a blinder but we dony really have anyone standing out like folau, cooper and cummins are for australia.
I'd personally don't rate the Honey Badger too highly. I'd have DK and McFadden on par if not ahead of him. Trimble and Fitz are just as good if not better than AAC, and Bowe is up there with with Folau.

Outplay their pack and play well defensively, they won't put too many points on us.

I'm concerned with our lack of X factor in D'Arcy, McFadden, and Kearney (on current form).

There is no way D'Arcy should be ahead of Marshall. I disagree with the argument concerning D'Arcy's breakdown skills. Firstly, I didn't see evidence of D'Arcy's superior breakdown skills. Secondly, if Marshall was asked to apply himself more to the breakdown, I'm sure he could, and he does look like he has a good build for it.

Team I'd have for Sat:

Healy
Best
Fitzpatrick
POC
Tuohy

(That front five looks soo much stronger on paper than the one against Samoa, and they were quite good against Samoa)

POM
SOB
Heaslip

Murray
Sexton
Fitzgerald
Marshall
BOD
Bowe
Kearney

Obviously Fitz won't be playing, but I'd love to see Tuohy at least make the bench. I'd also love to see Declan get some good game time, he's a better player than Ross simple as.

Fair enough, if Schmidt wants to pick certain players to implement his game in these early days, I'll stand by him. But, come the 6N, if Tuohy, Marshall, Fitzpatrick, the other Marshall, and Marmion, are still outplaying Toner, D'Arce, McCarthy, Ross, Reddan, Boss, then I will be seriously pished.

The front 5 against Samoa will be exposed against better teams.
I'd go with that lineup bar Murray - reddan instead only because murray has been sheite since the lions. Touhy i'd go with too, but can see schmidt going with toner, darcy and murray on sat. Will be pleasantly surprised if he tries a few different things though.
Reddan has been sheite all season as well. Murray has played them twice recently and must have done endless video analysis on Australia. He will be starting.

Reddan was lucky to be in the squad nevermind on as a sub against Samoa. Marmion deserved the start against Samoa.
Doesn't seem like joe is in the mood for too much experimenting. Murray to start and if it's not going well then Reddan on and Leinstertime

by Mickado Tue 12 Nov 2013, 07:41

I think JSs comments about it being in Sextons favour that both he and Kiss are familiar with him are a cautionary tale to any Irish fringe players who are thinking of moving abroad rather than an admission that they're biased towards him.

Schmidt chooses his words carefully. Always.

by **rodders** Tue 12 Nov 2013, 09:01

Rory_Gallagher wrote:I think Marshall is being written off unfairly by a few fans on here, but sure, it is up to him to prove people wrong.

I'm not writing him off - I genuinely expect him to get > 50 caps and injury notwithstanding become the starting 12 for Ireland this side of the RWC with Payne or Olding outside him....

I just don't think there's as much between him and D'arcy on current form as some are suggesting and although longer term thinking should favour the younger man in a tight call, I can see why Joe has gone (initially) for D'arcy given the short term need for results and the fact that BOD isn't fully fit.

I'd like to see Marshall start against Australia (I think he might), but can see it both ways.

by Jenifer McLadyboy Tue 12 Nov 2013, 09:14

Voice of reason Rodders. Agree completely.

by GunsGerms Tue 12 Nov 2013, 09:21

O'Driscoll will definitely start v Australia. Cant see Schmidt dropping him for that game as there would be too much made of it and how he also got dropped during the Lions.

Does that mean Darcy will be picked along side him? I'm not sure. I reckon Marshall deserves a pop too. Actually I reckon no one should play all three games. Barring injury though I'd say O'Driscoll might.

by rapidsnowman Tue 12 Nov 2013, 09:46

So can BOD last 3 games in a row now at this level?

by SecretFly Tue 12 Nov 2013, 10:09

rapidsnowman wrote:So can BOD last 3 games in a row now at this level?

Perhaps not.... but given it's his last season (one that could prematurely end at any hour)... he has personal goals, I'm sure.

Maybe his last goal could be achieved in a particular game that's coming up quickly. It might be a trial doing three full-on top level International games in a row for him, but with the kind of last season carrots he's looking at, I'm sure he could rise himself to the occasion.

He and Schmidt probably are only too aware that he needs two hard blow-out games before New Zealand because he hasn't played much and is obviously looking a tad rusty. But Schmidt was openly encouraging O'Driscoll to do one last season - so I'm sure there were certain secret pay backs for O'Driscoll conceding. And if he's walking, then Schmidt will be compelled to give him the coming games. The new year would then take care of itself and rotation and renewal of the position might begin to happen in the 6N.

by GunsGerms Tue 12 Nov 2013, 10:10

rapidsnowman wrote:So can BOD last 3 games in a row now at this level?

I reckon he can. He might be injury prone and slower but his conditioning is probably better than it has ever been.

by GunsGerms Tue 12 Nov 2013, 10:12

Cant wait for this match. Is there a 606 meet up for it?

by san Tue 12 Nov 2013, 10:14

Personally i think Darcy played better than BOD against Samoa. Darcy delaying his pass and giving a bit of a step drew in the wing to give McFadden a free run in for his try. He made it look easier than it is.

Could we see Marshall at 12 and Darcy at 13 versus Australia and then Marshall and BOD versus the AB's?

I can't see BOD lasting 3 games at this level.

by Standulstermen Tue 12 Nov 2013, 10:17

Given he has barely played this season I don't see why BOD won't start all three and I think Schmidt will (where possible) sub him in all three. I have to say in terms of ability I think there is a chasm between Marshall and D'arcy. The only thing is in terms of knowing what's expected and understanding schmidts game there may well be a chasm between them both as well which I think, if true, is more significant.

by GunsGerms Tue 12 Nov 2013, 10:33

san wrote:Personally i think Darcy played better than BOD against Samoa. Darcy delaying his pass and giving a bit of a step drew in the wing to give McFadden a free run in for his try. He made it look easier than it is.

Could we see Marshall at 12 and Darcy at 13 versus Australia and then Marshall and BOD versus the AB's?

I can't see BOD lasting 3 games at this level.

San that step from Darcy was real quality. It made the try as his quick feet drew two defenders.

by **rodders** Tue 12 Nov 2013, 11:01

GunsGerms wrote:
rapidsnowman wrote:So can BOD last 3 games in a row now at this level?
I reckon he can. He might be injury prone and slower but his conditioning is probably better than it has ever been.

Schmidt said BOD started to fade around 60min against Samoa ...he's played very little rugby since the Lions.

I don't think its a case so much of whether he can last 3 games in a row but how much fitness he can gain over the next 2 weeks to get close to match fitness. Same applies to O'Connell.

I honestly don't think we'll see too much of O'Driscoll this season, he'll be wrapped in cotton wool for the big games - the ABs game and another GS are his big targets I think.... maybe some silverware with Leinster but I think that one may be a bit unrealistic.... Run

by san Tue 12 Nov 2013, 11:21

I would love to see BOD get a victory against NZ on his CV. It would go some way to laying the ghosts of 2005 to rest.
One more Grand Slam seems about right too.

Actually it would be great to see Irish rugby get a victory against NZ on their CV!

by GunsGerms Tue 12 Nov 2013, 11:26

rodders wrote:
I honestly don't think we'll see too much of O'Driscoll this season, he'll be wrapped in cotton wool for the big games - the ABs game and another GS are his big targets I think.... maybe some silverware with Leinster but I think that one may be a bit unrealistic....

No need to run. It does seem unrealistic that Leinster will win any silverware. Not a fan of how they are playing.

by Jenifer McLadyboy Tue 12 Nov 2013, 12:56

GunsGerms wrote:
rodders wrote:
I honestly don't think we'll see too much of O'Driscoll this season, he'll be wrapped in cotton wool for the big games - the ABs game and another GS are his big targets I think.... maybe some silverware with Leinster but I think that one may be a bit unrealistic....
No need to run. It does seem unrealistic that Leinster will win any silverware. Not a fan of how they are playing.

You don't win a HC in October. You can lose one though. Which we haven't. Who knows what shape Leinster will be in come April.

Massive test coming in December. If we can pass that, anything is possible.

Meanwhile back at the Aus game. Isn't it amazing how people can have such different views on players based on looking at them in the same games.

OK Ulster fans see Ulster players way more often than other players and Leinster fans see their players more often etc.

Even within those groups though. There is such variance. Take Rodders and Stand's differing views on Darce for example. Both sensible posters. Both Ulster fans. Both knowledgeable guys. Most likely both have seen a similar amount of games with Darce in them.

It's mad Ted.

There is a thread on Leinsterfans called Kearney Love/Hate. Where people express diametrically opposed views on Mr K senior.

I suppose if we all agreed it would be boring and they would have to close this forum.

See. Even the bit I thought was going to be on topic drifted immediately back off. Smile

by clivemcl Tue 12 Nov 2013, 13:00

Heres an option...

Jackson retains the 10 shirt and Sexton plays 12.

I actually think that would be the best combination at the moment, but I very much doubt it will happen.

When did Sexton last play 12?

by san Tue 12 Nov 2013, 13:08

There is a thread on Leinsterfans called Kearney Love/Hate. Where people express diametrically opposed views on Mr K senior.

Is there one on the preferred height of Heaslip's trousers?

Jackson retains the 10 shirt and Sexton plays 12.

That doesn't help us get Marshall on the pitch!

by GunsGerms Tue 12 Nov 2013, 13:09

Not a bad call really in all fairness.

by Jenifer McLadyboy Tue 12 Nov 2013, 13:31

Bah! Sexton was only ever used at 12 to massage Rog's ego. Run

by The Great Aukster Tue 12 Nov 2013, 13:35

Sexton to 12 - no just no.

D'Arcy did good work for the Ferg try but was otherwise ordinary. In truth he has never regained his previous heights since breaking his arm in 2008. He used to always make yards and draw in defenders allowing BOD space to do his thang. Drico needs that type of player inside him more than ever to maximise the time he has on the ball.
The advantage of GD and BOD knowing each other's games inside out is somewhat negated as the minds might still be willing but the flesh is becoming weaker. It's only a few months ago that Marshall was a likely bolter for the Lions, so he has the basic quality required for Test rugby - all he needs now is experience. He especially needs that experience with Sexton inside him and O'Driscoll outside him (while he still can).

by **Notch** Tue 12 Nov 2013, 13:42

Any talk about Marshall being a bolter for the last Lions tour can be filed under baseless journalistic speculation to get easy page views in a Lions year, along with the speculation over about 40 other bolters who never made it.

by **Notch** Tue 12 Nov 2013, 13:48

But the good news is Tommy Bowe is fit; http://thescore.thejournal.ie/tommy-bowe-fit-1171848-Nov2013/?utm_source=twitter_self

by GunsGerms Tue 12 Nov 2013, 13:51

Looks like Bowe will be fit for Saturday. He completed a full training session today. Bowe and McFadden wings?

Or will Fitz, Kearney or Trimble be given the shout instead of McFadden?

by GunsGerms Tue 12 Nov 2013, 13:51

Damn you, you beat me to it.

by **Notch** Tue 12 Nov 2013, 13:53

Probably the same back three tbh.

by **rodders** Tue 12 Nov 2013, 14:04

clivemcl wrote:Heres an option...

Jackson retains the 10 shirt and Sexton plays 12.

I actually think that would be the best combination at the moment, but I very much doubt it will happen.

When did Sexton last play 12?

Thought about it actually... but hey the last time Sexto played in the centre with BOD we only nearly beat the all blacks..... Run

by Standulstermen Tue 12 Nov 2013, 14:40

Jen

I don't think D'arce was sheite (to coin a previously used phrase) but other than his lovely little jink and pass to McFadden I don't think he was notable.

I genuinely don't know where the notion that Marshalls ruck work is inferior comes from, which was why I mentioned the Scotland game as well as ulsters matches. The relative difference in power between the two guys now is quite stark in terms of clearing out and protecting the ball.

The bottom line is we have to trust in joe and in truth any decision to play/omit Marshall will only properly be judged in the 6N and beyond. You can't second guess what one particular selection will do during a game but in terms of developing our young talent over a period of games then yes it can be looked at. Anyways I trust Schmidt is the right man to make these calls

by GunsGerms Tue 12 Nov 2013, 17:00

Had no idea Aussie hooker Stephen Moore is Irish. Mum from mayo and Dad from Galway. He even lived in Ireland for a while before his family moved to Australia.

Aparently he is spending the day with his Irish family in Meath tomorrow. the IRFU also approached him when he was 19 to play for Ireland.

He is a big GAA gan and watched Mayo lose to Dublin in this years all Ireland final.

by littlejohn Tue 12 Nov 2013, 17:27

toml wrote:
Sin é wrote:
littlejohn wrote:
gleesonisgod wrote:
littlejohn wrote:
Gibson wrote:Ahj here Goose, favourtism is not Schmidts way. He likes to win, and to do that, he fits pieces of the jigsaw together to ensure he does. And he changes it, in key areas, for different types of opposition. Huge shift from Kidney.

If Joe plays Dorce, its because he is the best option to fit his plan. Its as simple as that.
I thought darcy played well - some nice steps and generally made yards whenever he had to. we are in need of someone like Bowe having a blinder but we dony really have anyone standing out like folau, cooper and cummins are for australia.
I'd personally don't rate the Honey Badger too highly. I'd have DK and McFadden on par if not ahead of him. Trimble and Fitz are just as good if not better than AAC, and Bowe is up there with with Folau.

Outplay their pack and play well defensively, they won't put too many points on us.

I'm concerned with our lack of X factor in D'Arcy, McFadden, and Kearney (on currentu form).

There is no way D'Arcy should be ahead of Marshall. I disagree with the argument concerning D'Arcy's breakdown skills. Firstly, I didn't see evidence of D'Arcy's superior breakdown skills. Secondly, if Marshall was asked to apply himself more to the breakdown, I'm sure he could, and he does look like he has a good build for it.

Team I'd have for Sat:

Healy
Best
Fitzpatrick
POC
Tuohy

(That front five looks soo much stronger on paper than the one against Samoa, and they were quite good against Samoa)

POM
SOB
Heaslip

Murray
Sexton
Fitzgerald
Marshall
BOD
Bowe
Kearney

Obviously Fitz won't be playing, but I'd love to see Tuohy at least make the bench. I'd also love to see Declan get some good game time, he's a better player than Ross simple as.

Fair enough, if Schmidt wants to pick certain players to implement his game in these early days, I'll stand by him. But, come the 6N, if Tuohy, Marshall, Fitzpatrick, the other Marshall, and Marmion, are still outplaying Toner, D'Arce, McCarthy, Ross, Reddan, Boss, then I will be seriously pished.

The front 5 against Samoa will be exposed against better teams.
I'd go with that lineup bar Murray - reddan instead only because murray has been sheite since the lions. Touhy i'd go with too, but can see schmidt going with toner, darcy and murray on sat. Will be pleasantly surprised if he tries a few different things though.
Reddan has been sheite all season as well. Murray has played them twice recently and must have done endless video analysis on Australia. He will be starting.
Reddan was lucky to be in the squad nevermind on as a sub against Samoa. Marmion deserved the start against Samoa.
Doesn't seem like joe is in the mood for too much experimenting. Murray to start and if it's not going well then Reddan on and Leinstertime

Marmion is on fire but didn't Boss make the squad ahead of him? On form he is the best of the bunch and Schmidt should be thinking about him but maybe in the summer if he keeps playing as he is.

by greygoose Tue 12 Nov 2013, 18:23

On balance I think maybe I was a bit rash earlier saying Schmidt was showing unfair preferences if he does select D'Arcy, I'll apologise for that. His record does speak for itself when it comes to selecting teams.

Focussing on the opposition now.
A lot of people are making Aus favourites for this and a lot of them are citing the 50 points they scored against Italy, however, having just watched the highlights I'm not all that worried, the Aussie tries weren't exactly the killer back moves I expected, a couple looked like forward passes to me, there was fairly clear blocking for AACs try and the others seem to be down to fairly poor Italian defence.
I would still make Aus slight favourites but I'm not as worried now I've seen those highlights. The Italian tries also show that Australia can be attacked both out wide and up the middle which I expect Schmidt to exploit ruthlessly.

(I was going to post a link to the youtube highlights but as Im a new member I'm not allowed to!)

by **rodders** Tue 12 Nov 2013, 19:07

greygoose wrote:
(I was going to post a link to the youtube highlights but as Im a new member I'm not allowed to!)

Can't you just copy and paste the URL into your reply?

by greygoose Tue 12 Nov 2013, 19:09

rodders wrote:
greygoose wrote:
(I was going to post a link to the youtube highlights but as Im a new member I'm not allowed to!)
Can't you just copy and paste the URL into your reply?

Not for 7 days apparently. but just go to youtube and type in italy v australia 2013 and you'll find it

by **rodders** Tue 12 Nov 2013, 19:17

Standulstermen wrote:I genuinely don't know where the notion that Marshalls ruck work is inferior comes from, which was why I mentioned the Scotland game as well as ulsters matches. The relative difference in power between the two guys now is quite stark in terms of clearing out and protecting the ball.

Well I'm guessing it probably came from me Stand. I don't mean Marshall is inferior so much as D'arcy plays a particular role in Schmidt's game plan - i.e. he does a lot of the donkeywork e.g. breakdown work, running decoy lines etc.

Marshall brings more in certain areas I agree but D'arcy is a Schmidt favourite and in fairness to him he's in better form than he's been in a while.

I do want to see Marshall start but think there is some merit to D'arcy being selected, which I haven't sometimes felt in the past.

by **profitius** Tue 12 Nov 2013, 19:43

Heres the team I think Schmidt will go with

1 Healy
2 Best
3 Ross
4 Toner/McCarthy
5 POC
6 POM
7 SOB
8 Heaslip
9 Murray
10 Sexton
11 McFadden
12 Marshall
13 BOD
14 Bowe
15 Kearney

16 Cronin
17 McGrath
18 Fitzpatrick
19 McCarthy/Toner
20 Jennings
21 Madigan
22 Boss
23 D Kearney

I don't think it will be too different to that.

by **rodders** Tue 12 Nov 2013, 19:46

I have a feeling Reddan will start at 9.

Plumtree has hinted at Toner and POC in the second row.

by littlejohn Tue 12 Nov 2013, 20:50

D Kearney deserves a start ahead of MCFadden. Fitzpatrick could start ahead of Ross to give him gametime - or at least bring him on after 50 mins when the aussie scrum has softened. Toner will start now after POC bigged him up so much in interview today.

Murray v Reddan close call - maybe murray starting but he needs to make much better decisions.

Like the idea of sexton at 12, but not the right game to try it - I'm happy with marshall or darcy starting. Toomua and Kuridrani will be a tough test for our centres. Kuridrani is a big lump and has been impressive going forward, not sure Toomua is right at 12, but defensively he will be tough to beat.

McKenzie expects it to be an attritional and territorial game, but maybe saying that to tempt ireland into a running game, which would suit australia...

by SecretFly Tue 12 Nov 2013, 22:38

I think Schmidt might go again for a stronger bench than maybe people are expecting with perhaps O'Brien and maybe even Sexton or Healy being held back again until the second half.

by **profitius** Tue 12 Nov 2013, 23:02

He could pull a few surprises alright, fly. People thought he would play his strongest team for all the 3 matches but he always has an eye on the overall picture.

Reading 'the roar' the Aussies are not too confident. They're worried about Irelands pack dominating. They feel they have a better backline though. I think thats an accurate reflection of it and how I see it too.

by GunsGerms Tue 12 Nov 2013, 23:14

There will be surprises I reckon.

by Gibson Tue 12 Nov 2013, 23:16

One for everyone in the audience I'll bet.

by Cyril Tue 12 Nov 2013, 23:18

SecretFly wrote:I think Schmidt might go again for a stronger bench than maybe people are expecting with perhaps O'Brien and maybe even Sexton or Healy being held back again until the second half.

That would be unwise.

Ireland need to go all out to stand a decent chance against the Aussies.

It's not a development game.

by JmD Wed 13 Nov 2013, 02:38

I'm just going to weigh in and say there hasn't been a better Ulster player this season than Luke Marshall. He wasn't a potential Lions bolter last season but if the tour was after this year he probably would be. He runs hard, passes, kicks, tackles, rucks and everything in between. Mike Ross could fall right through the gap between him and D'Arcy these days.

by pete (buachaill on eirne) Wed 13 Nov 2013, 04:01

Really interesting line in the irishtimes yesterday when speaking about who will partner O'Connell they continue to say

"Other positions under serious review are scrumhalf, inside centre, outhalf and openside flanker."

http://www.irishtimes.com/sport/rugby/international/tommy-bowe-expected-to-line-up-against-australia-1.1592254

by Mickado Wed 13 Nov 2013, 07:57

profitius wrote:Heres the team I think Schmidt will go with

1 Healy
2 Best
3 Ross
4 Toner/McCarthy
5 POC
6 POM
7 SOB
8 Heaslip
9 Murray
10 Sexton
11 McFadden
12 Marshall
13 BOD
14 Bowe
15 Kearney

16 Cronin
17 McGrath
18 Fitzpatrick
19 McCarthy/Toner
20 Jennings
21 Madigan
22 Boss
23 D Kearney

I don't think it will be too different to that.

Disregard, I was very sleepy this morning...

by **rodders** Wed 13 Nov 2013, 08:53

Sure McGrath plays loosehead Mick?

by **rodders** Wed 13 Nov 2013, 08:58

JmD wrote:I'm just going to weigh in and say there hasn't been a better Ulster player this season than Luke Marshall. He wasn't a potential Lions bolter last season

He was a potential Lion, sure he was one of four starting international 12's battling for 2 places, where do people get this nonsense?

Of course Gatland would have considered him as a tourist. Just because he didn't get selected that doesn't retrospectively remove any credentials he had to be considered.

by Pete330v2 Wed 13 Nov 2013, 09:42

"JmD wrote:
I'm just going to weigh in and say there hasn't been a better Ulster player this season than Luke Marshall. He wasn't a potential Lions bolter last season

I beg to differ, there are a number of players on the Ulster squad who have out-performed Luke Marshall so far this seaon. That's not to say the lad has the potential to be the best but at the moment he's not quite at his best. When he is on fire he's a force to be reckoned with and will be a lion on the next tour I believe.

by Submachine Wed 13 Nov 2013, 09:55

The thing about specialist centres is they are never going to get a spot on the bench. I think Marshall will definitely start ahead of Darcy against Australia. It's then a shootout between them for a place against NZ.

by **rodders** Wed 13 Nov 2013, 10:24

D'arcy typically hasn't done great against NZ and Schmidt/Kiss will be concerned about how the midfield defence went against Samoa in the first half .... on the few occasions they had ball we got opened up.

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