GGG vs Andy Lee

First topic message reminder :

Looking likely this fight will happen on the 26th of April after Daniel Geale apparently turned the fight down.

I can see Lee being out of their by the halfway stage.

What relevance do those examples have? Zero.

Only Hagler had as high a profile as Floyd and Mugabi was his number one contender at middleweight. He was also on a tremendous run. Neither of those apply to Amir Khan.

It's reaching of the highest order. I really don't know how you have the gall.

Would like your thoughts on my Hagler -Leonard thread haz....

BTW You know I can dig up plenty of other examples too especially in the lower weights...

TRUSSMAN66 wrote:Would like your thoughts on my Hagler -Leonard thread haz....

BTW You know I can dig up plenty of other examples too especially in the lower weights...

There are loads of examples of fighters moving up a weight division they've never fought in to fight a cheese champion. That doesn't justify it -- or make it a great win for the cheese champion unless the fighter was a) a great fighter and/or b) had cleaned out the division below (and was coming off a good run).

hazharrison wrote:HBO don't negotiate dates -- that's the date Golovkin was given.

If the entire middleweight division signed affidavits admitting they were terrified of him, you'd still say it was all a conspiracy.

It just goes to show, you can spin any argument. The most avoided fighter in boxing as cherry picker. Brilliant.

He might not be a cherry picker but you're making every excuse in the book for him. We know he's a top fighter and we know he'll go through Andy Lee like a wet paper bag, what's the point?

He can make better fights but his team are happy to fight also-rans as long as the hype train continues in the States. He can't follow this route forever, the fans are bored of it already and that is coming out in the forums.

No offence to Haz but he makes up excuses for guys he likes..

Duran wasn't motivated in Leonard 2......He said so ..so it's true

Liston said he dived..........So Ali didn't beat him.......

Hagler wanted a rematch with Leonard.......But he never told Leonard !!

Now he likes this guy..

I like Haz but he has his favorites..

TRUSSMAN66 wrote:I like Haz but he has his favorites..

Pot kettle comes to mind. Just a little bit of course...

I'll have tea with no sugar..

Strongback wrote:

hazharrison wrote:HBO don't negotiate dates -- that's the date Golovkin was given.

If the entire middleweight division signed affidavits admitting they were terrified of him, you'd still say it was all a conspiracy.

It just goes to show, you can spin any argument. The most avoided fighter in boxing as cherry picker. Brilliant.

He might not be a cherry picker but you're making every excuse in the book for him.  We know he's a top fighter and we know he'll go through Andy Lee like a wet paper bag, what's the point?

He can make better fights but his team are happy to fight also-rans as long as the hype train continues in the States.  He can't follow this route forever, the fans are bored of it already and that is coming out in the forums.

The point is that Lee is his best available opponent. How do you think this all works? HBO offer a TV date and issue a shortlist of opponents agreeable to them as a network. Golovkin is then paid by said network and that is split with the opponent. Where exactly does this imaginary pot of money come from to offer opponents wild sums so that they'll actually fight him?

What other fights can he make? He has repeatedly called out Martinez to no avail and as stated above, numerous fighters have turned down offers to face him. All he can do is keep knocking everyone out until he's offered a big fight.

TRUSSMAN66 wrote:No offence to Haz but he makes up excuses for guys he likes..

Duran wasn't motivated in Leonard 2......He said so ..so it's true

Liston said he dived..........So Ali didn't beat him.......

Hagler wanted a rematch with Leonard.......But he never told Leonard !!

Now he likes this guy..

I like Haz but he has his favorites..

 
This is like debating with a child. Duran wasn't the same fighter in the Leonard rematch that he was first time around -- that is as plain as the phallis on your head. He'd spent the majority of the interim partying in Panama -- even Leonard admits this. That doesn't excuse Duran, or Liston for taking a dive and I've never suggested it should.
 
Leonard also didn't tell Hagler.
 
Your debating style is the equivalent of a bully shouting a load of inaccurate "facts" to the surrounding crowd in the hope they'll back you up. It's tedious beyond belief. I'd get a more reasoned response out of a hat stand.

hazharrison wrote:

Strongback wrote:

hazharrison wrote:HBO don't negotiate dates -- that's the date Golovkin was given.

If the entire middleweight division signed affidavits admitting they were terrified of him, you'd still say it was all a conspiracy.

It just goes to show, you can spin any argument. The most avoided fighter in boxing as cherry picker. Brilliant.

He might not be a cherry picker but you're making every excuse in the book for him.  We know he's a top fighter and we know he'll go through Andy Lee like a wet paper bag, what's the point?

He can make better fights but his team are happy to fight also-rans as long as the hype train continues in the States.  He can't follow this route forever, the fans are bored of it already and that is coming out in the forums.

The point is that Lee is his best available opponent. How do you think this all works? HBO offer a TV date and issue a shortlist of opponents agreeable to them as a network. Golovkin is then paid by said network and that is split with the opponent. Where exactly does this imaginary pot of money come from to offer opponents wild sums so that they'll actually fight him?

What other fights can he make? He has repeatedly called out Martinez to no avail and as stated above, numerous fighters have turned down offers to face him. All he can do is keep knocking everyone out until he's offered a big fight.

Geale would have been the best opponent Golovkin faced, that shows the standard of his past opponent.

Why wouldn't HBO accommodate Geale's Australian TV deal by moving the date by a week?

Ward fights on HBO.

There's always a way. I'm not sure about his managements appetite though.

Not a great fight but what can be expected? You have two guys at the top (though one's on the slide) then an oasis of mediocrity below them. The situation reminds me of the heavyweight division with two Klits at the top and not much else looking up from the bottom.

Strongback wrote:

hazharrison wrote:

Strongback wrote:

hazharrison wrote:HBO don't negotiate dates -- that's the date Golovkin was given.

If the entire middleweight division signed affidavits admitting they were terrified of him, you'd still say it was all a conspiracy.

It just goes to show, you can spin any argument. The most avoided fighter in boxing as cherry picker. Brilliant.

He might not be a cherry picker but you're making every excuse in the book for him.  We know he's a top fighter and we know he'll go through Andy Lee like a wet paper bag, what's the point?

He can make better fights but his team are happy to fight also-rans as long as the hype train continues in the States.  He can't follow this route forever, the fans are bored of it already and that is coming out in the forums.

The point is that Lee is his best available opponent. How do you think this all works? HBO offer a TV date and issue a shortlist of opponents agreeable to them as a network. Golovkin is then paid by said network and that is split with the opponent. Where exactly does this imaginary pot of money come from to offer opponents wild sums so that they'll actually fight him?

What other fights can he make? He has repeatedly called out Martinez to no avail and as stated above, numerous fighters have turned down offers to face him. All he can do is keep knocking everyone out until he's offered a big fight.

Geale would have been the best opponent Golovkin faced, that shows the standard of his past opponent.

Why wouldn't HBO accommodate Geale's Australian TV deal by moving the date by a week?

Ward fights on HBO.

There's always a way. I'm not sure about his managements appetite though.

I'm sure HBO have a tight schedule that isn't easily jigged about to facilitate Daniel Geale. Why would they care who GGG fights? It's always the same result no matter who he fights. Geale would get mulched just as Lee will.

At least Geale's is a former belt hold. Possibly held two belts from memory. I like Andy Lee he seems like a good guy and does a good interview but he's a tier below Geale. He'll go quicker than Macklin if Trip G is in the mood.

Geale is average. No better than Macklin and hardly much better than Lee. HBO arent going to cater Geale. He was offered the fight and passed. Much like the rest of the middleweights.

Golovkin v Martinez is the only fight at middleweight. The sturms and Geales are in the average club who get chewed up and shat out by Golovkin but both guys have decent partisan fanbases that they can make easy money off. Sturm would have fought Barker for free probably to get that tile back to Germany and boost his retirement fund rather than take a career ending beating from Golovkin. Martinez is dragging up Cotto for similar reasons.

People would rather pretend Golovkin doesnt want to fight anyone than actually listen to the sounds coming from his opponents management saying they dont want it. HBO should also step up and put enough money on the table that Martinez cant run away.

Strongback wrote:At least Geale's is a former belt hold.  Possibly held two belts from memory.  I like Andy Lee he seems like a good guy and does a good interview but he's a tier below Geale.  He'll go quicker than Macklin if Trip G is in the mood.

Geale turned it down, though. That isn't Golovkin's fault -- I'm sure he's as frustrated as anyone. This idea he's milking his title is a joke -- he hasn't earned any big money yet.

catchweight wrote:Geale is average. No better than Macklin and hardly much better than Lee. HBO arent going to cater Geale. He was offered the fight and passed. Much like the rest of the middleweights.

Golovkin v Martinez is the only fight at middleweight. The sturms and Geales are in the average club who get chewed up and shat out by Golovkin but both guys have decent partisan fanbases that they can make easy money off. Sturm would have fought Barker for free probably to get that tile back to Germany and boost his retirement fund rather than take a career ending beating from Golovkin. Martinez is dragging up Cotto for similar reasons.

People would rather pretend Golovkin doesnt want to fight anyone than actually listen to the sounds coming from his opponents management saying they dont want it. HBO should also step up and put enough money on the table that Martinez cant run away.

Agreed, HBO are still building him -- he just needs to keep knocking everyone out. The more interest he attracts, the more money HBO can stump up for his fights. The more money they stump up, the more they can offer to his opponents.

Not sure where Haz is building the casr that GGG destroys Martinez from if I'm honest, Martinez had reported problems with his knees, his shoulder and his hands in the Murray fight. I think Murray won, personally, but I didn't see the age some others saw. Martinez has rarely looked his age when fighting, seems to get better, Murray aside. Chavez "almost had him out of there" as he weighed nearly a stone more on fight night and was completely and utterly outclassed for 11 and a half rounds so that is no argument at all.

GGG may be amazing, he may be, but we don't know. He's looked great fighting fringe opponents. You can't tell me that he's the most avoided fighter based on hearsay about the other middleweights. THe only fight for GGG is Martinez and for me, he's not fought at the level to be considered anything but a lively contender.

I dont consider Golovkin a cherry picker. I think hes hard as nails, and has much more substance to his game than Matthysse.

But Im baffled any boxing fan doesnt realise that Golovkin is happy to be beating up the likes of Lee and Macklin for easy money. When he runs out of options or his fans or TV company get bored of these fights, im sure he will have no hesitation in stepping up.

What some people dont like to accept is, hes playing exactly the same game as Quilin. Both are progressing their careers, without taking anymore risk than neccasary. Both earning good money and holding belts. Golovkin has to play the avoided card because it helps create this image he has going for him.

When the time comes i fancy Quilin to outbox Golovkin and break the same hearts that Garcia did.

Too early to call GGG a cherry picker...........It's like the Virgil Hill days at 175........

Apart from Charles williams who was the IBF holder.......

He's surrounded by crap.....Took Tommy to finish him..

Martinez is the only real decent fight..He is fighting Miguel.

I don't really think GGG is cherry picking at all. But, with each less-than-thrilling opponent he takes, it begins to look like he is.

His handlers really need to come up with something in terms of a credible opponent after Lee. Not easy to see who though.

His handlers should be more interested in making sure he's succesful rather than worrying about legacy....

That is there responsibility.........To him not the fans.

Lance wrote:I dont consider Golovkin a cherry picker. I think hes hard as nails, and has much more substance to his game than Matthysse.

But Im baffled any boxing fan doesnt realise that Golovkin is happy to be beating up the likes of Lee and Macklin for easy money. When he runs out of options or his fans or TV company get bored of these fights, im sure he will have no hesitation in stepping up.

What some people dont like to accept is, hes playing exactly the same game as Quilin. Both are progressing their careers, without taking anymore risk than neccasary. Both earning good money and holding belts. Golovkin has to play the avoided card because it helps create this image he has going for him.

When the time comes i fancy Quilin to outbox Golovkin and break the same hearts that Garcia did.

Big differencea between Quillin and GGG given that Quillin fought twice in '12 and '13 and that GGG has steam rolled his foes whereas his power got him out of jail while he was getting outboxed vs N'Daam (who previously vacated and walked away from facing Gennady). Rosado lost every second against GGG whereas Gabriel repeatedly got to Quillin before his paper eyelids failed him.

Golovkin would rip Quillin's head off.

He'll also stop Martinez - a once fine champ who is on the slide. Martinez doesn't have the legs to outbox GGG these days.

I'd take Golovkin over anyone bar Ward - and be willing to bet big on it also. He's the goods - this is no Alvarez hype machine.

Alvarez is hype now because of one fight...

Premature to call Alvarez a hype machine, he has one loss to Mayweather of all people. Lara's trouncing of Trout doesn't help his cause, but Canelo's standing and ability are still up in the air. People are too quick to be labelled hype jobs these days.

Losing is a part of boxing, remember.

Absolutely...........Haz hates Mayweather........Canelo is a hype job.....

Fancy that.

In my opinion he is a terribly overhyped fighter. Here's the fantastic Jay Caspian Kang:

"Then came a string of opponents who were one or two degrees from respectability. Canelo fought Miguel Cotto’s older, much smaller brother, who almost knocked Canelo out in the first round. He knocked out a dried-up corpse who was calling himself Carlos Baldomir. He won a decision against Ricky Hatton’s younger brother. He beat the dude who came in third place on the reality show The Contender. As his star rose in these arguably competitive fights, Canelo was offered his own telenovela (he turned it down) and dated a former Miss Universe turned Televisa star named Marisol Gonzalez. His personality during this time never changed — he was the muttering, work-is-life athlete, the stone-faced, handsome prodigy who never said much of anything. News would pop up here and there about trouble back home in Jalisco. In 2012, Canelo’s brother was accused of murdering a rival in Mexico. In April of this year, before the Trout fight, Archie Solis, a boxer who fought at 108 pounds, accused Canelo of attacking him outside a nightclub. Of course, this news was mostly swept under the rug by the television networks who carried Canelo’s fights. And because anyone who shows up on TV enough times can simply point to his television appearances as the evidence of his wild popularity, Canelo Alvarez was whatever Televisa, HBO, or Showtime said he was.

What Televisa and HBO and Showtime said was this: Saul “Canelo” Alvarez is a boxer. He has red hair. And he is popular. He is a good boxer, which makes him wildly popular back in Mexico, where he is known for his red hair.

You don’t need much else to create an icon these days. Hair is almost always enough."

http://grantland.com/features/canelo-alvarez-search-next-oscar-de-la-hoya/

Here is the rest of the article for those interested - a fantastic read.

TRUSSMAN66 wrote:Absolutely...........Haz hates Mayweather........Canelo is a hype job.....

Fancy that.

I don't hate Mayweather - pretty ambivalent towards him. As a man he's pond life but that doesn't impact on my opinion of him as a fighter. I used to be a fan of him back when he was a super feather (and fought his main rivals).

hazharrison wrote:Golovkin would rip Quillin's head off.

He'll also stop Martinez - a once fine champ who is on the slide. Martinez doesn't have the legs to outbox GGG these days.

I'd take Golovkin over anyone bar Ward - and be willing to bet big on it also. He's the goods - this is no Alvarez hype machine.

That's a declaration.


I would like to see GGG in with Kovalev. That would be impactful. They have already sparred with Golovkin apparently getting the upper hand if you believe the gym stories. In fact Abel Sanchez said Kovalev was afraid of Gennady. Stevenson is another top fight. Stevenson is a small LHW and apparently can make SMW.

Lets get these fight on. GGG is no spring chicken.

Strongback wrote:

hazharrison wrote:Golovkin would rip Quillin's head off.

He'll also stop Martinez - a once fine champ who is on the slide. Martinez doesn't have the legs to outbox GGG these days.

I'd take Golovkin over anyone bar Ward - and be willing to bet big on it also. He's the goods - this is no Alvarez hype machine.

That's a declaration.


I would like to see GGG in with Kovalev.  That would be impactful.  They have already sparred with Golovkin apparently getting the upper hand if you believe the gym stories.  In fact Abel Sanchez said Kovalev was afraid of Gennady.  Stevenson is another top fight.  Stevenson is a small LHW and apparently can make SMW.  

Lets get these fight on.  GGG is no spring chicken.

Well, he's a middleweight right now and he wants that championship from Martinez. I think he'll take Murray after Lee and try to get Serge in the ring next year.

They may be hedging their bets on a Mayweather taking a fight at 154 (I wouldn't hold my breath).

Mark my words - he'll beat everyone at 160 and 168 bar Ward.

hazharrison wrote:

Strongback wrote:

hazharrison wrote:Golovkin would rip Quillin's head off.

He'll also stop Martinez - a once fine champ who is on the slide. Martinez doesn't have the legs to outbox GGG these days.

I'd take Golovkin over anyone bar Ward - and be willing to bet big on it also. He's the goods - this is no Alvarez hype machine.

That's a declaration.


I would like to see GGG in with Kovalev.  That would be impactful.  They have already sparred with Golovkin apparently getting the upper hand if you believe the gym stories.  In fact Abel Sanchez said Kovalev was afraid of Gennady.  Stevenson is another top fight.  Stevenson is a small LHW and apparently can make SMW.  

Lets get these fight on.  GGG is no spring chicken.

Well, he's a middleweight right now and he wants that championship from Martinez. I think he'll take Murray after Lee and try to get Serge in the ring next year.

They may be hedging their bets on a Mayweather taking a fight at 154 (I wouldn't hold my breath).

Mark my words - he'll beat everyone at 160 and 168 bar Ward.

I think fans will be bored with him if he fights Lee then Murray.

We'll have to see if Martinez feels the desire to keep going after he fights Cotto. Personally I think Sergio is shot.

Lee in April then back to Monte Carlo in July. Likelihood is Murray or Geale.

if Golovkin already has his next fight after Lee lined up for monte carlo, then surely this proves he has no real desire to get Quilin or Sturm in the ring??? happy taking the easy money as i said.

How are they avoiding him when they dont even get a look in on his schedule??? As quilins team have said...they've had no offer from the most avoided man in the world....

most on here thought mattysse would take garcias head off...same guys now assume golovkin takes quilins head off.... well when golovkin fights somebody as good as quilin we might have a better idea. but hes clearly in no hurry to do that...

Lance wrote:if Golovkin already has his next fight after Lee lined up for monte carlo, then surely this proves he has no real desire to get Quilin or Sturm in the ring??? happy taking the easy money as i said.

How are they avoiding him when they dont even get a look in on his schedule??? As quilins team have said...they've had no offer from the most avoided man in the world....

most on here thought mattysse would take garcias head off...same guys now assume golovkin takes quilins head off.... well when golovkin fights somebody as good as quilin we might have a better idea. but hes clearly in no hurry to do that...

He has a date and a venue but no opponent. Quillin isn't viable as he has a contract with Showtime.

All in good time. He'll clean up.

Just read somewhere that Quillin is scheduled to fight Curtis Stevens and Danny Jacobs.

Yes Quillin due to go in with Stevens.....Murray is set to get a rematch with Sturm & obviously we have Martinez vs Cotto...all due to take place in and around April/May.

Thing is with this; you can't really accuse any of them of ducking GGG (a term which I'm always reluctant to use anyhow) but at the same time people can't come on and say that GGG needs to step up his competition and is happy fighting stiffs.

No one has any conclusive proof of either happening; haz, bringing up media stories isn't really proof as it is as much an conjecture as mine, yours, lance and everyone else's discussion here.

One thing we can say is that for some reason; arguably the 4 best fighters in the division are all sadly for some reason or another not fighting one another...Martinez, Golovkin, Quillin, Sturm...

For me the only fight that should be happening is Martinez vs GGG! Anything else is a cop out...though I could just about buy into the following:

Martinez vs Murray (more than deserving of a rematch)
GGG vs Quillin

Winners move on to fight each other. (I haven't included Sturm as I have accepted the simple fact he isn't moving out of Germany)

owen10ozzy wrote:Yes Quillin due to go in with Stevens.....Murray is set to get a rematch with Sturm & obviously we have Martinez vs Cotto...all due to take place in and around April/May.

Thing is with this; you can't really accuse any of them of ducking GGG (a term which I'm always reluctant to use anyhow) but at the same time people can't come on and say that GGG needs to step up his competition and is happy fighting stiffs.

No one has any conclusive proof of either happening; haz, bringing up media stories isn't really proof as it is as much an conjecture as mine, yours, lance and everyone else's discussion here.

One thing we can say is that for some reason; arguably the 4 best fighters in the division are all sadly for some reason or another not fighting one another...Martinez, Golovkin, Quillin, Sturm...

For me the only fight that should be happening is Martinez vs GGG! Anything else is a cop out...though I could just about buy into the following:

Martinez vs Murray (more than deserving of a rematch)
GGG vs Quillin

Winners move on to fight each other. (I haven't included Sturm as I have accepted the simple fact he isn't moving out of Germany)

Bringing up actual statements, quotes and facts reported in the media isn't proof?

Your quotes are agenda set though; of course Golovkins manager/promoter are going to say people are avoiding him...same as Quillins team will say they haven't received any offers...same as Geale's team said Golovkins wouldn't budge on the tv date...

They all have their own agenda...what they say isn't proof unless you have seen actual evidence presented which no one else is privy too?

owen10ozzy wrote:Your quotes are agenda set though; of course Golovkins manager/promoter are going to say people are avoiding him...same as Quillins team will say they haven't received any offers...same as Geale's team said Golovkins wouldn't budge on the tv date...

They all have their own agenda...what they say isn't proof unless you have seen actual evidence presented which no one else is privy too?

I haven't quoted Golovkin's promoter.

Geale has openly admitted to turning the fight down -- it's on record.

It's like an alternate universe this place at times......

Well there has been quotes presented on here from his promoter; if it wasn't you then fair enough...

My point still stands though....Yes Geale may have turned down the fight....that doesn't mean he is scared of him or avoiding him....in fact if were talking about the same thing then he has come out and given his reasoning behind it....the tv date is not suitable for for him as it clashes...to be honest that's a pretty fair reason in my book; he is taking on one of the most dangerous guys in boxing at the moment where a victory would thrust him into huge limelight...he is bound to want as much exposure as possible...

You can't expect Geale to be flexible on his dates and then label him a ducker if your not prepared to do the same to Golovkin...surely?!

owen10ozzy wrote:Well there has been quotes presented on here from his promoter; if it wasn't you then fair enough...

My point still stands though....Yes Geale may have turned down the fight....that doesn't mean he is scared of him or avoiding him....in fact if were talking about the same thing then he has come out and given his reasoning behind it....the tv date is not suitable for for him as it clashes...to be honest that's a pretty fair reason in my book; he is taking on one of the most dangerous guys in boxing at the moment where a victory would thrust him into huge limelight...he is bound to want as much exposure as possible...

You can't expect Geale to be flexible on his dates and then label him a ducker if your not prepared to do the same to Golovkin...surely?!

I haven't labelled Geale a ducker. I merely stated that he turned down the fight.

There was, however, debate on Twitter last night that he turned the fight down two days BEFORE he knew it clashed with Aussie TV (as the event it clashed with hadn't been announced).

Golovkins team refused Geales offer of a different date. They have also booked their next date without consulting Geales, Sturms or Quilins teams.

Im not saying its all Golovkins fault, but he has his path mapped out already and it doesnt include doing everything he can to fight the biggest challenges.

Lance wrote:Golovkins team refused Geales offer of a different date. They have also booked their next date without consulting Geales, Sturms or Quilins teams.

Im not saying its all Golovkins fault, but he has his path mapped out already and it doesnt include doing everything he can to fight the biggest challenges.

They haven't booked anything. HBO give them the dates. Geale may be in line later this year - Quillin is booked up and you've seen what Sturm thought about facing him earlier in the thread.

Golovkin is someone to get behind. This guy is a real fighter.

A real fighter who hasn't fought anyone, yes lets all jump on that bandwagon but badmouth those who have tested themselves against the very best.

Hammersmith harrier wrote:A real fighter who hasn't fought anyone, yes lets all jump on that bandwagon but badmouth those who have tested themselves against the very best.

*sigh*

Does Golovkin touch a nerve or something? I don't get it? Is this more Floyd drivel? Who have I "bad mouthed"?

Nothing to do with Floyd, i'm not sure how anyone can call Golovkin a proper fighter when his best wins are the mighty Macklin and Stevens. I prefer to see somebody prove themselves before I jump on their bandwagon, it's not an acceptable excuse to say HBO decide his fight dates, he needs to grow some balls.

Which fighters who've tested themselves against the best are being badmouthed?

And why the hell not jump on bandwagons? It's fun to just get behind fighters rather than being a stuck up hopster boxing fan once in a while!

Nobody is saying GGG isn,t a good fighter they are just saying they want him to step up his opposition. He might need to look outside his weight class but why not? Golovkin v Froch in November now that would be a fight.

Just imagine the abuse GGG would get if his opponent was as bad as, say, Cotto.