Wales tour of SA

by The Saint Sat 15 Mar 2014, 8:54 pm

First topic message reminder :

Halfpenny is out and recent news (unknown to me) is stating that Warburton will now also miss out due to a dislocated shoulder. It doesn't look good for us going to SA without these two and with our recent away form being so bad. Personally I think it would be a good idea if we had a midweek game before the first test against a SA Provincial team, using the majority of our first team.

Who would you like to see on the plane?

by GavinDragon Thu 20 Mar 2014, 9:40 pm

I dont think we will bring a second string biltong its just what i would do... i expect gats will take the strongest squad available

by **Biltong** Thu 20 Mar 2014, 9:44 pm

Good news then, the reality is every team has injuries and rarely do we see two nations able to put out their first 22 on matchday.

So injuries have become part and parcel of test rugby in recent years.

by GavinDragon Thu 20 Mar 2014, 9:50 pm

quite right, i just do not feel confident about our chances of coming close this summer even with a full-ish side and would rather take all expectation out of the game and see who is coming through and see if we can build some depth ahead of the WC, however i can see how that would not give you ideal prep for the RC but you guys seem in pretty good shape as it is.....

by Scratch Thu 20 Mar 2014, 9:52 pm

GavinDragon wrote:quite right, i just do not feel confident about our chances of coming close this summer even with a full-ish side and would rather take all expectation out of the game and see who is coming through and see if we can build some depth ahead of the WC, however i can see how that would not give you ideal prep for the RC but you guys seem in pretty good shape as it is.....

That is without doubt the most defeatist post i have ever read.

by GavinDragon Thu 20 Mar 2014, 9:57 pm

quite correct, but it is my opinion of where i see this team at the moment and where i place the importance of this tour against the AI's, 6N and next years WC

care to offer an alternative perspective scratch?

by Scratch Thu 20 Mar 2014, 10:02 pm

GavinDragon wrote:quite correct, but it is my opinion of where i see this team at the moment and where i place the importance of this tour against the AI's, 6N and next years WC

care to offer an alternative perspective scratch?

This tour is vital

We have 5 SH games before the RWC, we have to target winning 2 as a minimum or there won't be a RWC….if we don;t then i would even adopt your attitude to RWC….why bother going?

You think going to SA with a defeatist attitude is going to help us in the autumn or next year.

We should go there with a strong side, with a nod towards RWC i.e. benching those players we feel won't be around for RWC, and a positive attitude.

We have a big physical pack and plenty of talent behind it. Frankly such defeatism disgusts me, you go into every match aiming to win.

Go large or go home.

by GavinDragon Thu 20 Mar 2014, 10:22 pm

fair points i just think with where this squad is right now it would do more harm than good going to SA and losing (which based on this seasons form would be likely) with a full squad than going there looking to see who is capable of putting pressure on the first xv

the way i see this tour has the following potential outcomes

- we go down there with a full team and win - would be the best outcome obviously, would break the psychological barrier we have against the SH teams to a degree and would set us up nicely. However on this seasons form it is an unlikely outcome

- we go down with a full strength squad and lose narrowly - we have learned nothing new and there would be still questions surrounding the depth of our squad

- go down resting a number of key players lose but a number of players put there hands up in key positions i.e samson lee perhaps or a rhodri williams. Despite losing the coaches have an idea of who can step up and perhaps some players put pressure on the existing first xv raising competition and therefor performances

- go down resting a number of key players and get absolutely tonked and no one stands out, we no nothing more than we do before the tour but at least the first xv have been spared yet another defeat a the hands of a SH side

by Sgt_Pooly Thu 20 Mar 2014, 10:50 pm

Wales could be in for some serious pastings this summer.

SA were fantastic last year and Wales were smashed by the NH big boys, could be emotional.

by Scratch Thu 20 Mar 2014, 11:11 pm

Sgt_Pooly wrote:Wales could be in for some serious pastings this summer.

SA were fantastic last year and Wales were smashed by the NH big boys, could be emotional.

YAWN

Wales weren't smashed by anyone this season, the last 'smash' i saw was when we smashed Grand Slam wannabes England last year.

Anyway I'd be more worried about England's chances in NZ if i were you. The emotions i think you'll need: fear followed by sadness laughing

by Scratch Thu 20 Mar 2014, 11:20 pm

GavinDragon wrote:fair points i just think with where this squad is right now it would do more harm than good going to SA and losing (which based on this seasons form would be likely) with a full squad than going there looking to see who is capable of putting pressure on the first xv

the way i see this tour has the following potential outcomes

- we go down there with a full team and win - would be the best outcome obviously, would break the psychological barrier we have against the SH teams to a degree and would set us up nicely. However on this seasons form it is an unlikely outcome

Chances are that we won't win the tour…but if we front up to the physicality, up the intensity and EXECUTE then i think we can give a good account and have to target a win. When NH sides have done well against SA it is by contesting up front and having something special out wide.

- we go down with a full strength squad and lose narrowly - we have learned nothing new and there would be still questions surrounding the depth of our squad

Status quo, what we expect really from SH encounters. But if Meyer underestimates us that would be a mistake. This si the scenario i expect that i don't consider it to be a foregone conclusion. Wale shave to break this hoodoo eventually.

- go down resting a number of key players lose but a number of players put there hands up in key positions i.e samson lee perhaps or a rhodri williams. Despite losing the coaches have an idea of who can step up and perhaps some players put pressure on the existing first xv raising competition and therefor performances

Sounds nice, like management speak. We should go down there to Win or not go at all. Lets hope players get the opportunity to stake a claim; Ball, Rhodri, Williams 9, Williams 15 etc.

- go down resting a number of key players and get absolutely tonked and no one stands out, we no nothing more than we do before the tour but at least the first xv have been spared yet another defeat a the hands of a SH side

Gatland is not going to invite this by regarding this tour as developmental. I expect a full strength side but if players do not perform then the opportunity to redeem themselves may be over.

by Sgt_Pooly Fri 21 Mar 2014, 7:36 am

Scratch wrote:
Sgt_Pooly wrote:Wales could be in for some serious pastings this summer.

SA were fantastic last year and Wales were smashed by the NH big boys, could be emotional.

YAWN

Wales weren't smashed by anyone this season, the last 'smash' i saw was when we smashed Grand Slam wannabes England last year.

Anyway I'd be more worried about England's chances in NZ if i were you. The emotions i think you'll need: fear followed by sadness

Both Ireland & England smashed Wales, it's not a debate really.

by GavinDragon Fri 21 Mar 2014, 8:08 am

ireland did smash us

England beat us by 11 points and we squandered two good opportunities, still wll deserved victors but not a smashing in my view

that being said i am impressed with how england are developing and think they will do well in the summer

by Sgt_Pooly Fri 21 Mar 2014, 8:18 am

Fair one Gav, you fancy your chances in SA?

by bedfordwelsh Fri 21 Mar 2014, 8:32 am

The problems with tours and AIs (especially as we have no A side) is when do we experiment, if we go to SA with to much youth then it will be a hammering likewise we have seen in our past AI games we have to be at full strength to challenge.

However there is need the need for player care/rest etc, its always trying to find that balance, at the moment I think we could go down there with a fairly strong side (limited changes) and still challenge and see how players go against the best.

by fa0019 Fri 21 Mar 2014, 9:18 am

Its a toss up really isn't it.

Play a 2nd string ala NZ in 03 and hope it brings on some players like Martyn & Shane Williams or play to win a test and transform the 1st XV self belief they CAN go to places like SA and not just be competitive for 60 mins.

The only problem with playing a 2nd string is that huge defeats cut deep... the tour of hell in 97 or 98 killed more careers than it made... almost destroyed Josh Lewsey's even for instance, so much so he gave up a career in pro rugby for one in the army.

It too those players 5 years to get over those defeats, some never got close to playing for England again, thrown in too early against genuine world class opposition.

I still think they should take their 1st XV and rest their top players from club matches from here onwards.

by Jimpy Fri 21 Mar 2014, 9:29 am

GavinDragon wrote:ireland did smash us

England beat us by 11 points and we squandered two good opportunities, still wll deserved victors but not a smashing in my view

that being said i am impressed with how england are developing and think they will do well in the summer

Since we seem to be dragging up history, 62 v 5, now that is a smashing I think we'd all agree.

by Scrumpy Fri 21 Mar 2014, 9:33 am

Scratch wrote:
Sgt_Pooly wrote:Wales could be in for some serious pastings this summer.

SA were fantastic last year and Wales were smashed by the NH big boys, could be emotional.

YAWN

Wales weren't smashed by anyone this season, the last 'smash' i saw was when we smashed Grand Slam wannabes England last year.

Anyway I'd be more worried about England's chances in NZ if i were you. The emotions i think you'll need: fear followed by sadness

Stay on topic Scratch stop trying to de-rail the thread and winding up rugby fans, this has nothing to do with England and you know it.

by fa0019 Fri 21 Mar 2014, 9:40 am

Jimpy wrote:
GavinDragon wrote:ireland did smash us

England beat us by 11 points and we squandered two good opportunities, still wll deserved victors but not a smashing in my view

that being said i am impressed with how england are developing and think they will do well in the summer

Since we seem to be dragging up history, 62 v 5, now that is a smashing I think we'd all agree.

I was at the game with a Welsh buddy.... we left early!!!

To be fair though it was only a warm up with suspect XVs each and it was less humiliating then the 3-30 1st XV score 5 years later.

by Jimpy Fri 21 Mar 2014, 9:50 am

fa0019 wrote:
Jimpy wrote:
GavinDragon wrote:ireland did smash us

England beat us by 11 points and we squandered two good opportunities, still wll deserved victors but not a smashing in my view

that being said i am impressed with how england are developing and think they will do well in the summer

Since we seem to be dragging up history, 62 v 5, now that is a smashing I think we'd all agree.

I was at the game with a Welsh buddy.... we left early!!!

To be fair though it was only a warm up with suspect XVs each and it was less humiliating then the 3-30 1st XV score 5 years later.

Less humiliating than the '1st XV score 5 years later'.... I seem to remember the Welsh team that day being more than competent, the issue was poor management, poor tactics and an eventual Welsh capitualtion. There was nothing particularly 'experimental' or '2nd XV' about either side.

However, I concede that in Cardiff last year, the reverse was the case (apart from the poor management) and that the match had real meaning. A situation reveresed this year, and likely to be for some years to come based on current form.

by fa0019 Fri 21 Mar 2014, 9:56 am

This was the team that day against England in 2007

Wales: Byrne; A Brew, Shanklin, G Thomas (capt), D James; Sweeney, Cooper; I Thomas, Bennett, Horsman, W James, Sidoli, A W Jones, Charvis, Owen.

This was the team that lost to Fiji a few months later i.e. the first choice team at the time.

Wales: G. Thomas, M. Jones, Shanklin, Hook, S. Williams, S. Jones, Peel, Jenkins, Rees, Horsman, A. Jones, Evans, Charvis, M. Williams, Popham.

The only players who featured in the starting lineups were

Shanklin
Thomas (out of position at 12)
Horsman
AW Jones (out of position at 6)
Charvis.

looks experimental to me.

by bedfordwelsh Fri 21 Mar 2014, 9:57 am

And here we go again another thread brought down to child level by posters on both sides.

by Jimpy Fri 21 Mar 2014, 10:00 am

fa0019 wrote:This was the team that day against England in 2007

Wales: Byrne; A Brew, Shanklin, G Thomas (capt), D James; Sweeney, Cooper; I Thomas, Bennett, Horsman, W James, Sidoli, A W Jones, Charvis, Owen.

This was the team that lost to Fiji a few months later i.e. the first choice team at the time.

Wales: G. Thomas, M. Jones, Shanklin, Hook, S. Williams, S. Jones, Peel, Jenkins, Rees, Horsman, A. Jones, Evans, Charvis, M. Williams, Popham.

The only players who featured in the starting lineups were

Shanklin
Thomas (out of position at 12)
Horsman
AW Jones (out of position at 6)
Charvis.

looks experimental to me.

Says it all really.

by fa0019 Fri 21 Mar 2014, 10:04 am

that Fiji side almost beat SA (the soon to be world champs) and had a backline which were peerless, even the ABs.

by The Saint Fri 21 Mar 2014, 11:41 am

Would graceless English posters who have no intention of sticking to the OP please take a fat ef off pill. Never have I seen such pathetic behaviour and I have no idea why the supposed 'moderators' allow it to happen.

by Scrumpy Fri 21 Mar 2014, 11:52 am

When is the first game?

Will it clash with the Rabo final?

by The Saint Fri 21 Mar 2014, 12:00 pm

14th June, then the 21st June. Given the season ends for most of these guys in early May then we have plenty of time to recuperate Smile

.

by Scrumpy Fri 21 Mar 2014, 12:06 pm

So no excuses then, Wales need to field their strongest team in SA or they will get shown up big time.

The players need to step up and stop saying they feel tired.

by The Saint Fri 21 Mar 2014, 12:11 pm

I don't believe I've read up on 'players saying they're tired', though Gatland may have alluded to the fact that some of the players are fatigued. I'd say the re-occurring injuries to various players backs that up. We should be fielding the strongest available side in SA. Hopefully the two warm-up games are before the first test.

by The Saint Fri 21 Mar 2014, 12:46 pm

More great news for us, Hibbard will miss the tour as today he's having a shoulder op.

by bedfordwelsh Fri 21 Mar 2014, 12:52 pm

The Saint wrote:More great news for us, Hibbard will miss the tour as today he's having a shoulder op.

Saint,

Any links as can't find it on the bbc wales page. Owens is a ready made replacement to step in and has been involved with the squad for sometime so not that big a loss for me, it will now give another youngster Emyr Phillips possibly to cover bench duty.

by jimmyinthewell68 Fri 21 Mar 2014, 1:38 pm

Hibbard be missed because of his physical presents but saying that we ll never out muscle S .A so why not pass it around more keep ball and let north , cuth and liam Williams loose .i rather them play like against Scotland and see what happens .

by The Saint Fri 21 Mar 2014, 1:43 pm

Bedford, go to the Ospreys web-site and you should find it on there. I'm not pulling your leg!

I would guess that probables will be Owens and Phillips Vs possibles Dacey and Parry/Rees?

by BlueNote Fri 21 Mar 2014, 1:44 pm

We have good depth at hooker, although it helps having a few seriously robust characters like Hibbard around.

It would be a lousy thing to do to take a scratch team to SA that will get well beaten. It would be disrespectful to SA and the people who buy expensive tickets to see a competitive international match. What we should do is take a full-strength team that will get slightly less well beaten.

We have to put out the most competitive team we can.

by Scratch Fri 21 Mar 2014, 2:50 pm

Scrumpy wrote:So no excuses then, Wales need to field their strongest team in SA or they will get shown up big time.

The players need to step up and stop saying they feel tired.

What is tiring is your relentless bleating about players saying they are tired.

by Scratch Fri 21 Mar 2014, 3:02 pm

This spot should go to Dacey.

Owens is arguably a better option in the loose than hob bard although we will miss his tackling.

You have to look at these injuries as a chance to build some strength in depth in key positions.

by Welly Fri 21 Mar 2014, 4:07 pm

Just a fyi Owen Williams starting @ 10 again for tigers (flood on the bench), Against exeter on Sunday it's on bt sport who I think are having a free weekend so you dont have to be a member to watch the match.

He looked great for us so far made a huge kick against newcastle, certainly looks like a potential international 10.

by Scratch Fri 21 Mar 2014, 4:09 pm

Welly wrote:Just a fyi Owen Williams starting @ 10 again for tigers (flood on the bench), Against exeter on Sunday it's on bt sport who I think are having a free weekend so you dont have to be a member to watch the match.

He looked great for us so far made a huge kick against newcastle, certainly looks like a potential international 10.

Well with Biggar stepping up and Priestland falling off there is likely to be a close look at another option in the probables possibles game.

by BlueNote Fri 21 Mar 2014, 4:19 pm

Thanks, Welly. It's no mean feat keeping Flood on the bench.

by GavinDragon Fri 21 Mar 2014, 4:54 pm

for the record this is the team i would play vs SA

James
Owens
Lee
Ball
Evans
Lydiate
Tipuric
Jones

Williams
Williams
North
Sc Williams (if fit if not allen)
Davies
Cuthbert
Williams

I think that team would be strong enough to compete while giving some players in key positions (front 5 and half backs) a chance to stake their claim for next season going into the WC

by Peter Seabiscuit Wheeler Fri 21 Mar 2014, 5:19 pm

BlueNote wrote:Thanks, Welly. It's no mean feat keeping Flood on the bench.

Sam Vesty managed it.

by bedfordwelsh Fri 21 Mar 2014, 5:37 pm

GavinDragon wrote:for the record this is the team i would play vs SA

James
Owens
Lee
Ball
Evans
Lydiate
Tipuric
Jones

Williams
Williams
North
Sc Williams (if fit if not allen)
Davies
Cuthbert
Williams

I think that team would be strong enough to compete while giving some players in key positions (front 5 and half backs) a chance to stake their claim for next season going into the WC

GD,

If we did rest players (don't think we will) then that's a really good side, the only one I would query is Williams at 10, I don't think he will even tour and for me would go with Tovey or Patchell ahead of him.

by Scratch Fri 21 Mar 2014, 6:06 pm

bedfordwelsh wrote:
GavinDragon wrote:for the record this is the team i would play vs SA

James
Owens
Lee
Ball
Evans
Lydiate
Tipuric
Jones

Williams
Williams
North
Sc Williams (if fit if not allen)
Davies
Cuthbert
Williams

I think that team would be strong enough to compete while giving some players in key positions (front 5 and half backs) a chance to stake their claim for next season going into the WC

GD,

If we did rest players (don't think we will) then that's a really good side, the only one I would query is Williams at 10, I don't think he will even tour and for me would go with Tovey or Patchell ahead of him.

Benching Flood at Tigers is a big statement whether TF is off or not, might be the showcase he needs for a possibles pick

by Scrumpy Fri 21 Mar 2014, 6:13 pm

Scratch wrote:
Scrumpy wrote:So no excuses then, Wales need to field their strongest team in SA or they will get shown up big time.

The players need to step up and stop saying they feel tired.

What is tiring is your relentless bleating about players saying they are tired.

Maybe they should stop saying it then! thumbsup

Man up, there are kids in Africa that have to walk miles just to get some water everyday.

Maybe some of these guys should cut down on their gym sessions before a game if they are so tired!

by Welly Fri 21 Mar 2014, 6:15 pm

I guess we will see how much involvement williams has in the saints away and the clermont away 1/4 game. Which for tigers dosnt get much tougher or bigger than those games.

But if he has another good game against exeter I can't see cocker ill dropping him. ESP for next week.

by offload Sat 22 Mar 2014, 8:33 am

Development tours are for A teams and we don't have one. Not only that, but even the most optimitic Welsh fan can see that we have VERY little depth of real test standard.

I still remember the pain of watching SA humiliate us in 97 (?)

If we think our players need a rest we shouldn't be touring. Injuries aside we should take our very best squad and test them against the second best team in the world. Anything less is a waste of time and money.

by bedfordwelsh Sat 22 Mar 2014, 9:15 am

offload,

I agree but without an A Side when would you 'blood' new players?

by Peter Seabiscuit Wheeler Sat 22 Mar 2014, 9:19 am

Scrumpy wrote:
Scratch wrote:
Scrumpy wrote:So no excuses then, Wales need to field their strongest team in SA or they will get shown up big time.

The players need to step up and stop saying they feel tired.

What is tiring is your relentless bleating about players saying they are tired.

Maybe they should stop saying it then!

Man up, there are kids in Africa that have to walk miles just to get some water everyday.

Maybe some of these guys should cut down on their gym sessions before a game if they are so tired!

I pretty sure Jean de Villiers didnt doesnt, which is perhaps why SA are a top 2 side and Bongobongo land isnt? If England made Courtney Lawes walk 10 miles just to get his half time lucozade sport Im guessing he'd be back to a 60 minute player too. Maybe if they made Ben "not Welsh" Morgan walk to the pie shop then Woodward wouldnt be in the press saying the England teams fitness levels are poor.

Long term and short term fitness is always a balancing act. In the off season players dont get the intensive weeks of training they wont improve their base fitness. But equally if they dont get the weeks of rest need their bodies will break down, niggling injuries not recover etc. During the seaosn its much the same, how hard you train during the week determines fitness levels later in the year but can cause short term fatigue and increase injury risk. Do you give players weeks off during the season and lose their services?

It looks at the minute like Wales and their famed training camps/oxygen tents approach have pushed their players too hard. On the plus side very few will be involved in the later rounds of the HC and the Pro12 playoffs, so they should have a chance to recover a bit. The player depth simply isnt there to take a B squad, that was evident from last years summer tour and the Tonga game. Not to say that they shouldnt take a couple of new caps/fringe players but they have to go with the mindset of developing the first 15 and trying to compete with SA.

Its not that long ago Wales had a side capable of pushing SA to the limits on neutral ground. No reason why a fit focused and relaxed first team cant give them a game at least on this tour. Fatigue and long term fitness has to be a consideration but that would be very much on a player by player basis based on medical advice not just on a blind rotation policy.

by Peter Seabiscuit Wheeler Sat 22 Mar 2014, 9:32 am

bedfordwelsh wrote:offload,

I agree but without an A Side when would you 'blood' new players?

Most A internationals are lower quality, intensity and less pressured than high end league and HC games. Blooding players in A games means little in terms of stepping up in quality of opposition for pro players or in terms of showing if they can handle the big games.
Its worth noting that Stuart Lancaster dropped almost all Saxons games from the calender despite him coming from a background of leading the age grade and A teams. His philosophy is that those players are part of an extended first team squad, not a separate team. Gatland treats his squad much the same, youll see at least two full cap games a year that are stuffed with fringe players ... Barbarians game, low rent summer tours, the "easy" AI, the shane williams memorial game etc.
He finds plenty of opportunities to "blood" young players even without factoring in injuries which has led to guys like Ball and Lee getting high level test experience this year. Wales have a squad of over 30 players who are getting games, and a number of others who could jump back in to plug gaps if needed. Id say worry more about making your best 30 better than developing another 30 you dont need. Wales have a healthy balance of ages and experience, but also a largely settled squad and a bunch of guys who know what theya re doing, how the team plays, and who is stood next to them. That counts for a hell of a lot in a team sport.
I really dont think Gatland has ever had an issue with not giving new players a chance.

by bedfordwelsh Sat 22 Mar 2014, 9:51 am

PSW,

I agree but when you read some of the posts there is the 'lets rest them all and take a development squad' threads through to the 'we need to play our full team' threads.

Its always a thin line between developing and resting players, I don't think we can chuck to many new faces in against SA or it could (may do anyway) go horribly wrong but we have to try a few out in certain positions and surround them with experience.

Some of the changes, to me wouldn't be seen as big changes anyway as players like P James, Owens, Tipuric and Li Williams have been involved with the squad for a long while now anyway.

by rainbow-warrior Sat 22 Mar 2014, 10:48 am

Sgt_Pooly wrote:Wales could be in for some serious pastings this summer.

SA were fantastic last year and Wales were smashed by the NH big boys, could be emotional.

Hahahaha we could not smash ourselves. Ohhhhh you think england are NH big boys ??? Hahahaha runners up again:)

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