Wales tour of SA

First topic message reminder :

Halfpenny is out and recent news (unknown to me) is stating that Warburton will now also miss out due to a dislocated shoulder. It doesn't look good for us going to SA without these two and with our recent away form being so bad. Personally I think it would be a good idea if we had a midweek game before the first test against a SA Provincial team, using the majority of our first team.

Who would you like to see on the plane?

IMO part of being a rugby supporter is getting behind your team and supporting them, yes Preistland has had a coupe of poor games does it make him a poor player?

IMO no it doesn't, I fail to see why he is being used as a scapegoat when it was the whole team that performed badly at times during the 6 Nations, why is Gethin and Adam not being targeted when they failed to provide a solid scrum for the team, why is AWJ escaped criticism when he hasn't had a good game since last summer in a Lions shirt, Warbs hardly set the world on fire and Tips had a shocker whenever he took to the pitch. Also Gatland has to take a fair amount of the blame too.

Come on guys don't rip a decent player apart when others escape the same criticism.

I have nothing against Priestland personally, I just don't think hes up to the task against the big boys anymore, his brief period of brilliance in the 2011 world cup and against Ireland in 2012 Six Nations sums up his entire career. Since then everytime he has been under preassure his decision making becomes poor.

Look at the Australia tour of 2012, Wales arguably should have won that series, it was poor play in the dying minutes that cost us, the fly half is supposed to manage the game, and Priestland kept handing them possession when he didn't need to.

Again in the autumn internationals, last minute against Australia, Priestlands wayward kick found only Beale who set up his own try.
Against Ireland in this years 6 Nations we kicked poorly, handing them possession and they returned with interest.
Against England in this years 6 Nations his performance got steadily worse when they started piling on points.

You're right in saying other players deserve critcism, they do, however what you need from your half backs is control, whether they receive poor ball from the forwards or not. The fact he kept kicking possession away terribly doesn't do our forwards any favours and puts them under even more preassure as they now need to make more tackles and compete at the breakdown against superior forwards.

Scratch wrote:Bedford….isn't it time to look past preistland?

It may well be but we know he will tour and if honest I still think he has a role to play he just needs to be managed better than he has been.

owain williams deserves to tour, as does Patchell if he's fit with biggar as no.1 FH

Priestland struggled against the two best sides in the 6N behind a thoughourly beaten pack. Biggar played well in what was pretty much an uncontested training session against 14 pretty ordinary Scots.

The problem that Wales have is that both Priestland and Biggar play well against poor opposition but really struggle against better sides. Hook is just flakey and no longer an option at 10 (3rd choice 10 at his club).

Patchell and Owen Williams are options for the future, though Owen Willimas was poor for the Scarlets at the end of last season.

At the moment Biggar is in front but Wales need to keep both him and Priestland busy and hope one of them rises above the mediocre.

Most tens will struggle behind a losing pack, but is that the real issue with Priestland?

His general decision making is lacking and has for some time, if I think back to the Australian tour, it was decisions he made and poor kicks that cost Wales a game at least.

He seems to get rattled way too easily. Has a great range of skills but just not mentally strong enough. Is that a bit harsh?

I would go for Biggar anyway as I think he is excellent.

To suggest that fans are wrong for calling for another alternative at 10 to Priestland reveals a basic lack of understanding of the issue.

Priestland had a fantastic RWC 2011 but has failed to be consistent since. He offers more on form than Biggar and has more vision - Gatland has acknowledged that but he lacks confidence, a problem he has addressed with sports psychologists, and makes basic unforced errors too often and is shockingly prone to getting isolated where his ability to retain the ball makes him a liability.

Biggar, by contrast is a hugely confident player who needs to work on his vision. He is solid and right now solid trumps inconsistent. We are now 3 6 Nations campaigns from the last RWC and any fan who knows anything about Welsh rugby knows 3 things; Gatland has changed his mind, Priestalnd has had his chances and Biggar is now No 1.

Now, having had his chance and been favoured by the gaffer, it is time to look at the next batch and see whether Tovey/Patchell or Williams have what it takes to step into the understudy role. That is not to entriely dismiss Priestland but just common sense.

Bigger is a ok player but he can be got at.

I feel sorry for Pristland, its almost like Gatland knew his Lions would have a hangover and needed to select someone to take the flack if it all went wrong. 

Looks like its worked a treat, he is a wily old Fox that Gatland!   

We are fully aware of your feelings for priestland scrumpy, you have made them known ad infinitum, but your suggestion about Gatland doesn't warrant a reply as it is plain nonsense.

or is it?   

Scrumpy wrote:or is it?   

So what's your plan then Scrumpy?

Who should Gtaland be picking from the regions to tour who is as yet untried?

It's too late to be fiddling with the side before a RWC year, I'd stick with Priestland with the hope he could find his 2011 RWC form. 

Like he does with lydiate, warbs and Gethin.

Scrumpy wrote:It's too late to be fiddling with the side before a RWC year, I'd stick with Priestland with the hope he could find his 2011 RWC form. 

Like he does with lydiate, warbs and Gethin.

Love the edit, can't help yourself can you

And it's a genius suggestion, the depth of your welsh rugby knowledge is staggering, must be all you have learned from buzzing round the welsh threads!

I guess if Gatland also doesn't know the name of a single Welsh regional prospect he too will think along the same lines.   

Ireland have also left it too late, so don't feel left out!   

Scrumpy wrote:It's too late to be fiddling with the side before a RWC year, I'd stick with Priestland with the hope he could find his 2011 RWC form. 

Like he does with lydiate, warbs and Gethin.

Stick with Priestland and you might as well book your holidays for the KO stages. I'd be inclined to give Adam Jones the jersey over him.

But Wales's failings haven't just been down to Priestland!

If you aren't a WUM Scrumpy I can find at least 5 different clips where Priestland has cost Wales the game by failing to manage the game and making poor decisions

Yes, human beings make mistakes from time to time.

He is a confidence player, if his up for it then he is a very good No10 but what I'm saying is that the guys around him have hardly covered themselves in glory either, so I fail to understand why it is only Priestland being singled out?

Bigger can do the job but he too suffers from dips in form, so imo its a like for like swap. Wales are hardly over run with talented No10s coming through at this level.

But what everyone has been saying is he has been lacking confidence since the 2011 world cup, yes the other players need to step it up as well and maybe Priestland does get some unfair flack but he doesn't inspire confidence these days, he cannot control the game when he buckles under preassure and this has costed Wales in the past.

From what we've seen from Biggar he maintains composure better, he steered Wales to the 2013 6 Nations win after a poor first half against Ireland

So if we step back from the personnel that’s going and look at game plans, do you reckon we are going to see Warrenball/Gatlandball deployed against the Boks?

It’s going to take a huge amount of precision to take a power style game up against the epitome of power play that is the Boks.

By the way I’m not pointing the finger here at Wales only, I think it’s also going to be difficult for Lancasterball (StewBall?) to be successfully played against the AB’s, who have the high tempo game nailed down – heck they probably even DREAM at a higher tempo than most mere mortals.

What do you think, is it going to be Warrenball MkI or has Gats got a cunning plan?

bedfordwelsh wrote:

The Saint wrote:

Sgt_Pooly wrote:Anyway.......

What's your 6 options past Lydiate Saint?

Stretched even further with Warburton out. Ryan Jones, Aaron Shingler, James King, Lewis Evans. It's likely the former 2 will get picked regardless of form (however Jones is still a good player). Gats has mentioned putting Bradley Davies to 6 to counter Alberts and the SA driving maul, personally I'd only consider putting AWJ there as he's just as big and slightly more athletic.

Saint,

I really hope to god we don't put Davies or AWJ there, Lewis Evans should tour and would be our best option after Lydiate but with various reports by Gatland that doesnt seem likely.

Jones has been playing well and will never let us down but we seen in 07 that AWJ can't play 6.

Probably go with Coombs.

Scrumpy wrote:Yes, human beings make mistakes from time to time.

He is a confidence player, if his up for it then he is a very good No10 but what I'm saying is that the guys around him have hardly covered themselves in glory either, so I fail to understand why it is only Priestland being singled out?

Bigger can do the job but he too suffers from dips in form, so imo its a like for like swap. Wales are hardly over run with talented No10s coming through at this level.

I still think a 5-8ths would support Priestland but the Davies-Roberts combo is cast in stone, I would like to see Patchell brought on at 12 for the future leading to 10, similar to NZ plans.

Apparently Gatland is in HK watching the 7s play. I'm hoping he's not picking forwards...

Maybe that's just a holiday... I don't see the point in substituting Lydiate for Coombes, as there isn't much difference. Gats idea was to add more kg to the pack.

The Saint wrote:Maybe that's just a holiday... I don't see the point in substituting Lydiate for Coombes, as there isn't much difference. Gats idea was to add more kg to the pack.

I thought the question was 6 passed Lydiate, not instead of!

daidimview wrote:

The Saint wrote:Maybe that's just a holiday... I don't see the point in substituting Lydiate for Coombes, as there isn't much difference. Gats idea was to add more kg to the pack.

I thought the question was 6 passed Lydiate, not instead of!

Then perhaps you should quote Sgt_pooly and not me, as myself and Bedford had moved on to talking about the back-row convert from lock.

stuart davies in the evening post said he would have been fuming if he was biggar, being subbed with 20 minutes to go against scotland when he had a good game and no previous start in this 6ns, he also said this subbing was indicative of the welsh management still having the jury out on biggar. he then said biggar deserves his chance.

at the moment biggar is our man for me, but I still think that if hpenny wasn't injured, priestland would be number one for the tour because gatland will never admit he was wrong in player choice or tactics.

How would you rate a Welsh win in the summer series. I read one of secretfly's posts on Ireland and South Africa and it got me thinking about the up coming tours.

South Africa is notoriously hard to tour, and the have proven an almost insurmountable obstacle for Wales. So how do you view a win.

This is mine. Firstly, I think Wales have to go in confident expecting to win. However, in reality I think 2 close losses mean progress and could give confidence. A win would be great, 2 wins probably the greatest moment yet for Welsh rugby.

That's not meant to by condescending. The reality victory in two games in the republic is generally a big ask for any team at any time. Few teams have walked away from a tour of South Africa victorious.

A series win in South Africa would be outstanding, I can't remember the last NH team to have done it, England in 2003?

1-1 would be great for us in terms of confidence, knowing that we can beat a great SH team at away from home.

2 close losses will just tell us what we already know, that we cannot raise that extra bit of effort to seal off a game though I think it matters on the manner of the loss, a couple of times we've played SA we had a big lead after 20-30 minutes only to let them back in the game.

2 hammerings would be a backwards step.

We have a very proud record at home against the Six Nations teams.

The best England has mustered was a drawn series 1-1 in 2000. England has one draw and three wins in 13 attempts.

France has the most successful record of the Six Nation teams in SA, they have won a series in SA in 1958 1-0, 1993 1-0, and drew a series in 2001 1-1.

They have managed 6 wins and 5 draws in 21 attempts.

Scotland, Italy, Ireland and Wales have not achieved a win in 28 attempts.

Biltong wrote:We have a very proud record at home against the Six Nations teams.

The best England has mustered was a drawn series 1-1 in 2000. England has one draw and three wins in 13 attempts.

France has the most successful record of the Six Nation teams in SA, they have won a series in SA in 1958 1-0, 1993 1-0, and drew a series in 2001 1-1.

They have managed 6 wins and 5 draws in 21 attempts.

Scotland, Italy, Ireland and Wales have not achieved a win in 28 attempts.

Ah come on. We beat you in 1972 in our 1 match tour!

This is a startling fact I wasn't aware of, France have won more games (6) in SA than they have won (5) at home vs South Africa.

Their record vs SA at home.
(Played 18, lost 12, won 5, drawn 1) vs away (Played 28, lost 11, won 6, drawn 5)

No 7&1/2 wrote:

Biltong wrote:We have a very proud record at home against the Six Nations teams.

The best England has mustered was a drawn series 1-1 in 2000. England has one draw and three wins in 13 attempts.

France has the most successful record of the Six Nation teams in SA, they have won a series in SA in 1958 1-0, 1993 1-0, and drew a series in 2001 1-1.

They have managed 6 wins and 5 draws in 21 attempts.

Scotland, Italy, Ireland and Wales have not achieved a win in 28 attempts.

Ah come on. We beat you in 1972 in our 1 match tour!

   You did, but alas that isn't a series.

Hit it on the button Biltong. That's why I think two close games shouldn't be seen as a failure, a win as meritorious, etc. The same goes for England in NZ.

On the other a hand their'll be a a lot of soul searching in the Republic and NZ if either NH team even pulls off a win (although I'm expecting a close series down here).

Yeah, if either of SA or NZ lose a match it might dent their confidence going into the RC, having said that, I will be livid if we lose a match in June.

I'm feeling a bit uneasy about the upcoming tour. Don't know if it's the poor showing of the super XV teams, wariness of England, the lack of preparation or something else.

Well mate, when you go through an unbeaten year it is inevitable that a certain loss comes closer, unfortunately no matter how good a team is, at some point it will lose, I am hoping that loss will be against us.

SA and Australia are battle hardened with back to back Lions tours. NZ will definitely be harmed by that.   

Frankly bc I'd rather see us with dodgy Super form than top Super form. You might argue the OZ conference looks a lot more convincing at the moment than the NZ conference one - I for one would argue that at present - but that doesn't necessarily translate into good test form. Arriving in June and beyond with the pressure to perform isn't such a bad thing from my point of view. Sometimes feeling all is rosy with the world and the mentality that things will naturally flow into test form can be a debilitating mentality to have.

Depending on the injury situation, the realistic goal in SA is to be competitive, i.e. to give them two genuine games. If we were to nick a win, that would be a great achievement. I can't see it happening. The thing that irritates me is that I think we probably have the players to do it, but they are just not being used to best effect.

Biltong wrote:Yeah, if either of SA or NZ lose a match it might dent their confidence going into the RC, having said that, I will be livid if we lose a match in June.

Don't worry, you wont.

Jimpy wrote:

Biltong wrote:Yeah, if either of SA or NZ lose a match it might dent their confidence going into the RC, having said that, I will be livid if we lose a match in June.

Don't worry, you wont.

Nothing is guaranteed mate.

Biltong wrote:

Jimpy wrote:

Biltong wrote:Yeah, if either of SA or NZ lose a match it might dent their confidence going into the RC, having said that, I will be livid if we lose a match in June.

Don't worry, you wont.

Nothing is guaranteed mate.

True, but some things are as good as...

Jimpy wrote:

Biltong wrote:

Jimpy wrote:

Biltong wrote:Yeah, if either of SA or NZ lose a match it might dent their confidence going into the RC, having said that, I will be livid if we lose a match in June.

Don't worry, you wont.

Nothing is guaranteed mate.

True, but some things are as good as...

The Lions was kicked out of Super Rugby in 2012, they lost all their players, came back into Super Rugby this year and beat the Reds, Cheetahs, Blues and Stormers, winning four out of six.

All four those teams are usually top ranked teams, and if anyone expected the Lions to win those four matches they are lying (as good as)

You never know, injuries, referees, weather, bounce of the ball, fast start etc.

Biltong wrote:

Jimpy wrote:

Biltong wrote:

Jimpy wrote:

Biltong wrote:Yeah, if either of SA or NZ lose a match it might dent their confidence going into the RC, having said that, I will be livid if we lose a match in June.

Don't worry, you wont.

Nothing is guaranteed mate.

True, but some things are as good as...

The Lions was kicked out of Super Rugby in 2012, they lost all their players, came back into Super Rugby this year and beat the Reds, Cheetahs, Blues and Stormers, winning four out of six.

All four those teams are usually top ranked teams, and if anyone expected the Lions to win those four matches they are lying (as good as)

You never know, injuries, referees, weather, bounce of the ball, fast start etc.

You're being very diplomatic, but you do realise it's Wales we're talking about here don't you?  

Jimpy wrote:

Biltong wrote:

Jimpy wrote:

Biltong wrote:

Jimpy wrote:

Biltong wrote:Yeah, if either of SA or NZ lose a match it might dent their confidence going into the RC, having said that, I will be livid if we lose a match in June.

Don't worry, you wont.

Nothing is guaranteed mate.

True, but some things are as good as...

The Lions was kicked out of Super Rugby in 2012, they lost all their players, came back into Super Rugby this year and beat the Reds, Cheetahs, Blues and Stormers, winning four out of six.

All four those teams are usually top ranked teams, and if anyone expected the Lions to win those four matches they are lying (as good as)

You never know, injuries, referees, weather, bounce of the ball, fast start etc.

You're being very diplomatic, but you do realise it's Wales we're talking about here don't you?  

  

Yep, and this is South Africa, who often lose matches they shouldn't.   

Don't worry, Bryce Lawrence isn't refereeing anymore

Biltong wrote:We have a very proud record at home against the Six Nations teams.

The best England has mustered was a drawn series 1-1 in 2000. England has one draw and three wins in 13 attempts.

France has the most successful record of the Six Nation teams in SA, they have won a series in SA in 1958 1-0, 1993 1-0, and drew a series in 2001 1-1.

They have managed 6 wins and 5 draws in 21 attempts.

Scotland, Italy, Ireland and Wales have not achieved a win in 28 attempts.

Not intending to be pedantic, but Scotland have one win, don't they? And France; somewhere between 2005-08 they drew with the Boks and beat the Boks in SA, but I'm not sure if that was a series?

Also, appreciate how you guys in the SH are gracious before and after a match. Some graceless fans of the '2nd place' finishers here in the NH would learn a lot from your example (if they were to be less stubborn and take note).

Grow up Saint!  




OMG!   

The Saint wrote:

Biltong wrote:We have a very proud record at home against the Six Nations teams.

The best England has mustered was a drawn series 1-1 in 2000. England has one draw and three wins in 13 attempts.

France has the most successful record of the Six Nation teams in SA, they have won a series in SA in 1958 1-0, 1993 1-0, and drew a series in 2001 1-1.

They have managed 6 wins and 5 draws in 21 attempts.

Scotland, Italy, Ireland and Wales have not achieved a win in 28 attempts.

Not intending to be pedantic, but Scotland have one win, don't they? And France; somewhere between 2005-08 they drew with the Boks and beat the Boks in SA, but I'm not sure if that was a series?

Also, appreciate how you guys in the SH are gracious before and after a match. Some graceless fans of the '2nd place' finishers here in the NH would learn a lot from your example (if they were to be less stubborn and take note).

Some graceless fans of the '3rd place' (and lucky to get it too) finishers here in the NH would learn a lot from the same example too. Still, you can't have everything can you.