Glasgow and Edinburgh: Ongoing Banter Thread III

[George Carlin]

First topic message reminder :

Historical Banter:

https://www.606v2.com/t48240-glasgow-and-edinburgh-ongoing-banter-thread
https://www.606v2.com/t51313-glasgow-and-edinburgh-ongoing-banter-thread-ii
 
A. Edinburgh
 
1. Pre-season
 
Fri 30 Aug 2013, 19:45
Edinburgh Rugby 15 - 5 Newcastle Falcons
 
Fri 23 Aug 2013, 19:30
Northampton Saints 24 - 6 Edinburgh Rugby
 
2. 2013/2014 Season - Played
 
Sat 7 Sep, 19:15
Munster Rugby 34 - 23 Edinburgh Rugby
 
Fri 13 Sep, 19:45
Edinburgh Rugby 16 - 13 Newport Gwent Dragons
 
Sat 21 Sep, 18:30
Ospreys 44 - 10 Edinburgh Rugby
 
Fri 27 Sep, 19:45
Edinburgh Rugby 9 - 22 Scarlets
 
Sun 6 Oct, 14:05
Cardiff Blues 29 - 12 Edinburgh Rugby
 
Fri 25 Oct, 19:45
Edinburgh Rugby 20 - 13 Benetton Treviso
 
Fri 1 Nov 19:45
Edinburgh Rugby 25 - 23 Zebre
 
Fri 22 Nov 19:05
Ulster Rugby 41 - 17 Edinburgh Rugby
 
Fri 29 Nov 19:45
Edinburgh Rugby 43 - 10 Connacht
 
Fri 20 Dec 19:35
Edinburgh Rugby 11 - 6 Leinster
 
Thu 26 Dec 15:05
Edinburgh Rugby 16 - 20 Glasgow Warriors
 
Wed 1 Jan 18:05
Glasgow Warriors P - P Edinburgh Rugby
 
Sat 15 Feb 17:00
Connacht Rugby 11 - 7 Edinburgh Rugby
 
Sat 22 Feb 14:30
Scarlets 25 - 21 Edinburgh Rugby
 
Fri 28 Feb 19:35
Edinburgh Rugby 31 - 25 Ospreys
 
Fri 21 Mar 19:45
Edinburgh Rugby 3 - 9 Ulster Rugby
 
Sat 29 Mar 19:00
Benetton Treviso 20 - 16 Edinburgh Rugby
 
Thu 3 Apr 18:30
Newport Gwent Dragons 19 - 23 Edinburgh Rugby
 
Fri 11 Apr 19:45
Edinburgh Rugby 22 - 29 Cardiff Blues
 
Sat 19 Apr 15:30
Zebre 26 - 13 Edinburgh Rugby
 
Sat 26 Apr 19:05
Glasgow Warriors 37 - 34 Edinburgh Rugby
 
3. 2013/2014 Season - Final Games
 
Sat 3 May 17:00
Edinburgh Rugby v Munster Rugby
Meggetland
BBCALBA/TG4
 
Sat 10 May 18:30
Leinster Rugby v Edinburgh Rugby
Royal Dublin Society
 
B. Glasgow
 
1. Pre-season
 
Sat 31 Aug 2013, 15:00
Exeter Chiefs 26 - 29 Glasgow Warriors
 
2. 2013/2014 Season
 
Fri 6 Sep, 19:35
Glasgow Warriors 22 - 15 Cardiff Blues
 
Fri 13 Sep, 19:05
Ulster Rugby 12 - 13 Glasgow Warriors
 
Fri 20 Sep, 19:35
Glasgow Warriors 12 - 6 Leinster Rugby
 
Fri 27 Sep, 19:30
Zebre 17 - 24 Glasgow Warriors
 
Sat 5 Oct, 18:30
Scarlets 12 - 17 Glasgow Warriors
 
Fri 25 Oct, 19:35
Glasgow Warriors 6 - 13 Munster Rugby
 
Sat 2 Nov, 17:00
Connacht Rugby 12 - 19 Glasgow Warriors
 
Fri 22 Nov, 19:35
Glasgow Warriors 8 - 23 Newport Gwent Dragons
 
Fri 29 Nov, 19:05
Ospreys 16 - 28 Glasgow Warriors
 
Fri 20 Dec, 19:35
Glasgow Warriors P - P Benetton Treviso
 
Thu 26 Dec 15:05
Edinburgh Rugby 16 - 20 Glasgow Warriors
 
Wed 1 Jan 18:05
Glasgow Warriors P - P Edinburgh Rugby
 
Sun 9 Feb 14:00
Glasgow Warriors 8 - 6 Connacht Rugby
 
Sat 15 Feb 18:30
Cardiff Blues 20 - 27 Glasgow Warriors
 
Sun 23 Feb 14:30
Newport Gwent Dragons 24 - 23 Glasgow Warriors
 
Sat 1 Mar 20:30
Leinster Rugby 28 - 25 Glasgow Warriors
 
Sat 22 Mar 18:30
Glasgow Warriors 14 - 6 Scarlets
 
Fri 28 Mar 19:35
Glasgow Warriors 11 - 9 Ospreys
 
Fri 4 Apr 19:35
Glasgow Warriors 29 - 10 Benetton Treviso
 
Sat 12 Apr 18:30
Munster Rugby 5 - 22 Glasgow Warriors
 
Fri 18 Apr 19:35
Glasgow Warriors 27 - 9 Ulster Rugby
 
Sat 26 Apr 19:05
Glasgow Warriors 37 - 34 Edinburgh Rugby
 
3. 2013/2014 Season - Final Games
 
Fri 2 May 20:00
Benetton Treviso v Glasgow Warriors
Stadio Monigo
Mediast/ALBA
 
Sat 10 May 18:30
Glasgow Warriors v Zebre
Scotstoun Stadium
 
[16/17/18 May
PO Semi Final
[tbc] v [tbc]
Venue TBA]
 
[Sat 31 May
PO Final
[tbc] v [tbc]
Venue TBA]
 
***
 
Any and all patter about these teams is welcome.
 
Any jingoism, sledging or graceless kicking of anyone whilst they are up or down will see posts deleted.
 
Be gracious and be constructive.

[Biltong]

Justice for the Melrose one, isn't really all that catchy to be honest.

Perhaps something like

No gain for Payne.

would be more catchy.

As for Biggar, I suggest you find out whether he shaved the morning before, if not, then the faceplant to Hogg's shoulder could have been premeditated.

[RDW]

Hogg is from hawick...

[RDW]

In other news, Tom English has interviewed Mark Dodson today and some of it will be shown on BBC Scotland 'sport' round up tonight.

He claims he asked him why SJ was made DoR...

[funnyExiledScot]

....is that different from Melrose?

I thought Jim Telfer and Bill MacLaren lived in all these places at the same time.....

[George Carlin]

Grew up there but was born in Melrose.

Don't argue with me.

[RDW]

Sorry sir.

He very much classed himself as a hawick lad though!

[funnyExiledScot]

In other news, Tom English has interviewed Mark Dodson today and some of it will be shown on BBC Scotland 'sport' round up tonight.

He claims he asked him why SJ was made DoR...

Is it Comic Relief already?

I'll look out for this interview. I'd love to see Dodson answer that question. The SRU made noises about "global searches" for both the Scotland and the Glasgow jobs, and whilst I don't think Toonie has done particularly badly, I had my doubts as to how "global" the search was that ended up appointing the existing backs coach. As for the appointment of Scott Johnson, well, I can only hope the answer is that no-one applied and they approach at least three hundred other individuals before stumbling upon Scott Johnson, and that he's working for free.

[George Carlin]

Can't blame him. I will tell people I'm from Troon, because I grew up there.

I'm not telling people I'm from Irvine just because I was born there.

This is because:

(a) I never lived there;

(b) Irvine is a toilet; and

(c) Irvine is a toilet.

[AsLongAsBut100ofUs]

Well back and settled after my house move. Contribution on here to be back to normal.

What are Edinburgh doing about a 10 next season?

You fancy a go?

The chat seems to be that Tonks will be the main man, unless someone like Heathcoat or Jackson (strong rumours) signs to give him strong competition. If neither of those two signs there are no rumours on anyone else yet.

Bezzy has yet to sign a long term deal but I hope he does, as he has looked decent so far.

We have already signed this Nick McLennan chap who is an 'outside back' apparently, but has very little high level pro experience to speak of.

What we are missing though is an up and coming Scottish 10 to learn their trade and play the odd game - it has been Leonard and Hunter for the last few seasons, but we've booted them!

Surely GC and ASBO can come up with some zit popping teenager for us to marvel over (until they actually play).

What about Alex Blair? His name hasn't been mentioned for a wee while.

I think Tonks, Bezzy and one of Jackson/Heathcote would be ideal. Glasgow are working with Finn Russell, already world class, and Duncan Weir should provide both Glasgow and Scotland with a poor impression of Dan Parks for years to come. Peter Horne provides cover at 10 should Glasgow need it, and RiskySports will no doubt re-emerge from the wilderness shortly to remind us all that Stuart Hogg really ought to ditch playing fullback, despite being rather good at it, and try his hand at fly half.

In terms of depth the key is really for Lee Millar, Harry Leonard and Tom Heathcote to ensure they get regular rugby, even if in the Championship. If they achieve that then we'll at least have a few options. 2 at Edinburgh, 2 at Glasgow plus those three plying their trade elsewhere.

FES, you are doing nothing to quosh the rumour that you were turned down as an extra Dementor in the Harry Potter films because you were just too unhappy for them.

I can't work out whether you are just annoyed at the quality of Scottish offerings generally or that the Glasgwegian ones seem to be hyped more than the Edinburgh ones. Either way, Alex Blair needs to show with Accies that he is the best thing in the Scottish Prem before he can step up again and Millar needs to show London Scottish that he can build on his Gala form in what should be a more competitive league. From what I've seen, I am confident that Millar at 21 has the potential to show more than Leonard was able to at 22.

Faintly ridiculous if Leonard can't get a club, though. He was progressing well.

I've seen a few of the London Scottish games this season and Millar has been one of the stand outs. My girlfriends uncle lives near LS and goes to a lot of their games and he has been raving about Millar saying he easily has the skills to play in the Aviva.
The other player who a lot of the LS fans seem to be talking up is Mike Doneghan who is a wing or 13. Played for Scotland u20s and Stirling County before going to Glasgow as an EDP but got no game time. Seems to have developed into a very good player down in England though.

Isn't Lee Millar mainly behind Dan Newton at the moment in the pecking order, altho in fairness there's not much to choose between the two?

[AsLongAsBut100ofUs]

Sorry sir.

He very much classed himself as a hawick lad though!

He does!!

[IanBru]

I was born in Frimley, Surrey. The very same hospital as Jonny Wilkinson and Toby Flood, in fact.

Not an easy thing to admit, that.

Thank Christ I moved to the States straight away!

[madmaccas]

Well back and settled after my house move. Contribution on here to be back to normal.

What are Edinburgh doing about a 10 next season?

You fancy a go?

The chat seems to be that Tonks will be the main man, unless someone like Heathcoat or Jackson (strong rumours) signs to give him strong competition. If neither of those two signs there are no rumours on anyone else yet.

Bezzy has yet to sign a long term deal but I hope he does, as he has looked decent so far.

We have already signed this Nick McLennan chap who is an 'outside back' apparently, but has very little high level pro experience to speak of.

What we are missing though is an up and coming Scottish 10 to learn their trade and play the odd game - it has been Leonard and Hunter for the last few seasons, but we've booted them!

Surely GC and ASBO can come up with some zit popping teenager for us to marvel over (until they actually play).

What about Alex Blair? His name hasn't been mentioned for a wee while.

I think Tonks, Bezzy and one of Jackson/Heathcote would be ideal. Glasgow are working with Finn Russell, already world class, and Duncan Weir should provide both Glasgow and Scotland with a poor impression of Dan Parks for years to come. Peter Horne provides cover at 10 should Glasgow need it, and RiskySports will no doubt re-emerge from the wilderness shortly to remind us all that Stuart Hogg really ought to ditch playing fullback, despite being rather good at it, and try his hand at fly half.

In terms of depth the key is really for Lee Millar, Harry Leonard and Tom Heathcote to ensure they get regular rugby, even if in the Championship. If they achieve that then we'll at least have a few options. 2 at Edinburgh, 2 at Glasgow plus those three plying their trade elsewhere.

FES, you are doing nothing to quosh the rumour that you were turned down as an extra Dementor in the Harry Potter films because you were just too unhappy for them.

I can't work out whether you are just annoyed at the quality of Scottish offerings generally or that the Glasgwegian ones seem to be hyped more than the Edinburgh ones. Either way, Alex Blair needs to show with Accies that he is the best thing in the Scottish Prem before he can step up again and Millar needs to show London Scottish that he can build on his Gala form in what should be a more competitive league. From what I've seen, I am confident that Millar at 21 has the potential to show more than Leonard was able to at 22.

Faintly ridiculous if Leonard can't get a club, though. He was progressing well.

I've seen a few of the London Scottish games this season and Millar has been one of the stand outs. My girlfriends uncle lives near LS and goes to a lot of their games and he has been raving about Millar saying he easily has the skills to play in the Aviva.
The other player who a lot of the LS fans seem to be talking up is Mike Doneghan who is a wing or 13. Played for Scotland u20s and Stirling County before going to Glasgow as an EDP but got no game time. Seems to have developed into a very good player down in England though.

Isn't Lee Millar mainly behind Dan Newton at the moment in the pecking order, altho in fairness there's not much to choose between the two?

Nope, it's more of an either/or situation ala Jackson/Weir. They offer different skills.

[RDW]

In completely and utterly unrelated news:

I just saw a tram on Princes street

Moving

Without breaking down/causing gridlock/running over a tourist

 

[George Carlin]

Amazing what's achievable when FES agrees not to park his Range Rover Sport in a tram lane like he did a fortnight ago.

[funnyExiledScot]

Amazing what's achievable when FES agrees not to park his Range Rover Sport in a tram lane like he did a fortnight ago.

You think I park my own car....

  

[George Carlin]

Amazing what's achievable when FES agrees not to park his Range Rover Sport in a tram lane like he did a fortnight ago.

You think I park my own car....

  

  

[RDW]

Anyone watch the interview?

[Majestic83]

Just read that London Irish have 'nabbed' Scott Steele (U20's 9) from Leicester.

Unfortunately the article also mentions he might be qualified to play for England.

I hope they don't poach him. I've heard he could have a bit of a future.

http://www.planetrugby.com/story/0,25883,3823_9257161,00.html

Good move for Steele, should get a good amount of game at Irish. He is scottish born but only qualifies for
England through being at the tigers for three years. Think that will be mentioned because of the funding clubs get if they have a certain amount of English qualified players.

[RDW]

Henson has signed a year extension at Bath - come on Heathcoat, get out of there!!

Or maybe we don't want him given Bath obviously think Henson is better?

[RDW]

Lots of interviews with Dodson in the papers this morning.

Some key points:

- Vern Cotter is in sole control of the Scotland team, and can appoint whoever he wants for his coaching staff. No mention on whether he can bin Humphries though. Johnson will only be part of the coaching team if Cotter wants him to be.

- A point on Dodson himself - In his three years as chief executive, the senior women, national men and under-20 teams have managed a total of six wins in 45 Six Nations matches.   

- A quote on the Edinburgh signing policy - “What you will see is a peak of foreign talent coming into the team this year and next year, and after that it will decline when Scottish talent comes through,” says Dodson. But the same man said the same thing two years ago.

- WP Nel and Du Preez are the only 'official' project players at Edinburgh

- Iain Morrison comment on the Caley red - "Surely we need a smidgen of success at Edinburgh or Glasgow before anyone with a spare £35 million even thinks of pitching the Caley standard in Aberdeen or Perth."

- Scott Johnson hasn't been promoted, as technically his original job was DoR and he took on the Scotland coaching as an interim measure. As far as I am aware he was originally employed as a skills coach, so there has been a big promotion in there somewhere!

[George Carlin]

Cannot make up my mind about Dodson. There is no point in criticising someone for not being more able and he has been responsible for things like getting Macron on board just as they were trying to break into the rugby market and getting a big payday from BT who needed to give Sky one in the eye at the time.

I am also not in favour of flooding an organisation with consultants who are frequently underqualified (in the land of the blind...) and tend to be very expensive, but surely it would be beneficial for one of the Big Four to do a root and branch analysis of the organisation's structure in comparison to other country's and make recommendations about optimal spending within our means? Having written that, I would think it's not dissimilar to asking 100 turkeys to vote on whether Christmas should be brought forward this year.

The thing I remain most worried about is the level of management interference with the recruitment of players. Guys like Atiga and Walker should never have been signed in the first place and it is obvious that Solomons' selection policy is currently being interfered with. Can we leave the rugby to the rugby people please?

[AsLongAsBut100ofUs]

Dodson frustrates the hell out of me - talks a good talk, but while some of his delivery has been good (increasing turnover and reducing the debt), some has been appalling, and his defence of Johnson is pathetic - no comment whatsoever on how his promotion from Skills guru to DoR came about. He's got a lot of work to do - I hope that he is up to the task

[EWT Spoons]

There are some shocking stats in the article about our win ratio since Dodson’s been in role.  However, clearly he’s not picking the squads and tactics employed by our national teams and the coaches have primarily been in role already during his reign

He inherited Robbo (I think)
He was only in the door a few mins before Johnston stepped up to cover for Robbo
He’s appointed someone who on paper should be very good….just took a long time to get him.

So whilst the win ratio is grim, I don’t know if he’s really at fault.

He got rid of Bradley (huge kudos for that) but did it in a very odd manner (half the coaching team leaving early, then the rest) and Old Man Solly seems to be doing a decent job with Edinburgh.  So that is to his credit.

On the flip side, I still have no idea how SJ managed to get the role of DoR.  He might yet turn out to be a superb DoR, but given his management of the men’s national side was pathetic, I don’t have high hopes.

Don’t think I would be calling on Dodson to go yet, but still a lot of work to do.

Oh and I don’t necessarily have an issue with the target being to win the World cup next year, as I suspect most tier 1 teams will be going in with that objective, it was a bit silly to set it out as part of our strategic plan.  But it’s not really a big issue, I mean if you asked any of the 6 nations sides their target for the world cup, I would imagine it would be to try and win it.  If you’re not entering  a tournament with a view to winning then why bother.  Sure it might not be achievable but that should be the ultimate aim.  But hopefully he’s learned his lesson in terms of calling out specific targets like that.

[BigGee]

Cannot make up my mind about Dodson. There is no point in criticising someone for not being more able and he has been responsible for things like getting Macron on board just as they were trying to break into the rugby market and getting a big payday from BT who needed to give Sky one in the eye at the time.

I am also not in favour of flooding an organisation with consultants who are frequently underqualified (in the land of the blind...) and tend to be very expensive, but surely it would be beneficial for one of the Big Four to do a root and branch analysis of the organisation's structure in comparison to other country's and make recommendations about optimal spending within our means? Having written that, I would think it's not dissimilar to asking 100 turkeys to vote on whether Christmas should be brought forward this year.

The thing I remain most worried about is the level of management interference with the recruitment of players. Guys like Atiga and Walker should never have been signed in the first place and it is obvious that Solomons' selection policy is currently being interfered with. Can we leave the rugby to the rugby people please?

I think he has hit the nail on the head when he says that we have never got to grips with professional rugby and I am not sure we need a very expensive consultant fro PWC or one of the others to come in and tell us that, we kind of know it already!

There was never going to be a quick fix when he came in but lets give him credit where due, the financial and commercial situation is so much better now, the professional sides, Glasgow in particular are performing much better and crowds are up, Glasgow have virtually doubled theirs. We do have as well, potentially the best international team we have had in years, potential that clearly has not been realised yet but when you compare the standards of some of our players now to before it really is a light year or several away!

Maybe we finally do have some of the people in place now to really make the next step. Alan Solomans and Vern Cotter are top drawer coaches with proven track records and you can't say that Solly is not making a difference at Edinburgh already. Scott Johnson, well we don't know what kind of a DoR he is going to turn out to be. The plans for development of the game at the grass roots seem to be what is needed but still need more buy in from the clubs and schools.

Optimism is always a required trait for the Scottish rugby fan but there are positive signs out there. Dodson is probably going to be judged on our performances running up to and during the world the world cup but ultimately it is the longer term legacy of trying to finally establish professionalism that is probably far more important.

[AsLongAsBut100ofUs]

Interesting to note that we will have 4 warm-up matches for RWC 2015 - away to France, Italy and Ireland, and just the one home fixture versus Italy again

[RDW]

Wouldn't have thought we would need 4 warm up games - seems a bit much, and can only lead to injuries. Maybe this is Cotter wanting more games to make up for the short time he'll have before the world cup.

We had 2 last time!

[EWT Spoons]

We'll probably see a fair old mix of players being used in the warm up games. Cotter, I would imagine, will want to have one last chance at seeing everyone he's planning on using given at least one run out.

Shame so many are away from home though.

[GLove39]

Interesting to note that we will have 4 warm-up matches for RWC 2015 - away to France, Italy and Ireland, and just the one home fixture versus Italy again

Ohhh, a trip to Rome in summer time sounds lovely!   

[RDW]

Where did you see these fixtures ASBO? Sounds like a mini 6N.

[GLove39]

They're on the beeb http://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/0/rugby-union/26959098

[IanBru]

Is that the same Beeb which consistently presented pictures of Mike Blair when talking about Al Kellock?

[AsLongAsBut100ofUs]

Very sad news that former Scotland U20 player and Ayr centre Robbie Fergusson has been confirmed with Hodgkins Lymphoma - here's to hoping that the young lad makes a full and speedy recovery

[RDW]

Very sad news that former Scotland U20 player and Ayr centre Robbie Fergusson has been confirmed with Hodgkins Lymphoma - here's to hoping that the young lad makes a full and speedy recovery

Wow that's bad news - sad for any young person to have to deal with.

His name has been banded about on here as one that could make the step up to pro rugby, and I hope he has a speedy recovery.

[funnyExiledScot]

We need as many games with Cotter in charge as humanly possible. Yes, injuries are a worry, but Cotter will need as much time as possible with the players on the pitch to get his message across and I'm pleased that has been accommodated.

The Ireland fixture is the key one for me. They are top class at the breakdown and Cotter will want to get as much experience as possible playing against streetwise sides ahead of the World Cup. The Italy matches should afford us the chance to work out some combinations in the backs, and all four of those games will test the scrummage.

The Pro Sides will no doubt be pressured into resting players at key times, so they should be very much focused on Scotland and paying attention to what Cotter is telling them to work on.

The injuries are a bit of a worry, but let's face it, we're not in a position to sit back and wrap our key players in cotton wool. Scott Johnson's shambolic regime has effectively left Cotter starting from scratch, and he'll need as many games as possible to achieve respectability.

[funnyExiledScot]

Very sad news that former Scotland U20 player and Ayr centre Robbie Fergusson has been confirmed with Hodgkins Lymphoma - here's to hoping that the young lad makes a full and speedy recovery

Wow that's bad news - sad for any young person to have to deal with.

His name has been banded about on here as one that could make the step up to pro rugby, and I hope he has a speedy recovery.

Very sad, and I echo the comments wishing him all the best. We've discussed him quite a bit on here as a future professional player and hopefully his recovery will be comprehensive.

[George Carlin]

Oh jaysus - I saw him play - very talented young man.

I hope that he's looking to the likes of Matthew Rees and Aaron Cruden for inspiration.

All the very best to him. Hope that they caught it early.

[IanBru]

Bloody horrible news. Still, a positive outlook is absolutely vital.

As has been said, players like Matthew Rees set an incredible example, particularly in terms of taking that same dedication normally reserved for training and playing rugby, but applying it to surviving.

On a brighter note, Glasgow are naming their squad for the Melrose 7s tomorrow and it could be bloody tasty. Assuming a squad of 12, imagine something along the lines of:
Nakarawa, Eddie, Vernon, Niko, Horne, Isles (  ), Niua, Bennett, Jones, McGuigan, Wight, and Fusaro.

All with international sevens experience and with skill and pace to burn. Going to be fun!

[123456789]

I hope that's not the squad given we have a rather important game on Saturday, Isles will surely play and tear up

[GLove39]

Good news everyone, an agreement for the new Heineken Cup Euro rugby cup thingy have been announced. The top 7 from the Pro12 qualify, so there's a very good chance Edinburgh will be playing in it next year.

[RDW]

Glove - it's the top 7 but because treviso aren't in it they will take the '7th' spot

[GLove39]

Ahhh, damn, just spotted the team from each country part. Well so much for that. Ironic for Edinburgh that they may well finish in the top 7 but not be included.

[George Carlin]

Dodson's big victory is that Scottish rugby will still get the same GBP5m that it did with 2 teams qualifying.

[RDW]

Even though only one team is guaranteed?

[George Carlin]

Even though only one team is guaranteed?

Yes. The English and French cared more about the prestige of playing than the money.

We did nothing to dislodge our reputation for thrift with that exchange.

[RDW]

Excellent, but does everyone else not stand to make a lot more money from the competition:

[Majestic83]

Very sad news that former Scotland U20 player and Ayr centre Robbie Fergusson has been confirmed with Hodgkins Lymphoma - here's to hoping that the young lad makes a full and speedy recovery

Just saw this on the ayr Facebook page. Gutted for Robbie, a fantastic player who I have said should have been playing pro. Really nice guy too, hopefully makes a full and quick recovery.

[AsLongAsBut100ofUs]

Dodson's big victory is that Scottish rugby will still get the same GBP5m that it did with 2 teams qualifying.

So in relative terms in comparison to the French and English teams, that'll be a lot less

[123456789]

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/sport/rugbyunion/article-2600662/Plotting-renaissance-Elite-strategist-unveils-grand-vision-Scottish-rugby.html

[AsLongAsBut100ofUs]

To save everyone clicking on Numbahs link and inadvertantly boosting the viewing figures for Daily Fail's website and leading them to imagine that they have a good product, here's the article:

Plotting the renaissance: Elite strategist unveils grand vision for Scottish rugby

By Rob Robertson

Scottish rugby is in crisis. A shocking display in this year’s Six Nations merely highlighted the deep-rooted problems in the game and something must be done to end the current malaise. In short, it is a time for solutions and revolution.

Alistair Gray (right) was behind the 2005 Genesis Report into Scottish rugby and is one of the most respected management consultants in the country, whose clients include the International Cricket Council, The Football Association, Cricket Australia, the Scottish FA and Lawn Tennis Association. He also co-ordinated a major overhaul of rugby in Ireland.

So worried was he over the future of the oval ball game in this country that the 65-year-old founder of Renaissance & Co, one of Europe’s leading strategic management consultants, drew up a radical plan he believes needs to be implemented to save the game, which he has sent to respected figures throughout rugby.

Here, he tells Rob Robertson of his plan. The conclusions he reaches are based on a lifetime of advising sports organisations throughout the globe. And his findings will serve as a stark warning to SRU chief executive Mark Dodson that radical action must be taken...


Why did you go out of your way to put together your report?

Because of my love for the game and because I fear there will be an accelerating spiral of decline that will lead to international oblivion for Scotland unless there is a radical rethink of the way forward.  What brought things to a head for me have been the performances I witnessed at Murrayfield in the autumn Tests and the Six Nations.  I was left frustrated and depressed and I believe these performances can only have damaged relationships between the national team, the governing body and the fans.  To sort things, Scottish Rugby must move from self-preservation and defence to embrace the future with new ideas before it is too late.

Radical action needs to be taken now because, after two decades of inertia and tinkering, it will take another decade before Scotland will have any chance of regaining former glories.

There have been few periods of sustained success. Grand Slams or Five/Six Nations championships have been few and far between and the win ratio is way below 40 per cent for the senior men’s team.

People may say it is easy to be critical but, in all my experience of observing and working with sports, I have never seen such a total  corporate performance as poor and embarrassing as that delivered in 2013-14 by Scottish Rugby. There is a downward vortex of forces playing on Scottish Rugby at the moment. Decisive action is required to turn this round, not more tinkering.

How do you back up your claims that things are at, arguably, an all-time low?

The morning after the defeat to Wales, I looked at the statistics of the Six Nations from a Scotland point of view. I was horrified. I knew I had to try to do something.  What worries me is that the SRU seem to have not learned any  lessons from the past and are still setting crazy targets like suggesting Scotland could win the 2015 World Cup.

I worked with the English FA and, when they put forward their  mission statement long before the 2010 World Cup in South Africa, they didn’t make themselves such hostages to fortune by making such grand claims.

They claimed they had to make the World Cup semi-finals under Fabio Capello and, when they didn’t, there was a backlash and he lost his job.

You have titled your paper ‘Now is the Time, Now is the Hour. Big Changes Scottish rugby must make now’. Do you really feel that the sport north of the border is in such a perilous state?

Absolutely. Time is not on the SRU’s side to get their house in order. God forbid there is a time that Scotland fail to automatically qualify for the World Cup but it could happen sooner rather than later.  Remember, only the top 12 nations automatically go to the finals and, although Scotland are safe for 2015, they could fall out of that dozen in time for the 2019 World Cup in Japan unless the slide in playing standards is stopped.

That would leave them having to pre-qualify and that won’t be easy, especially with the rise of other nations such as Georgia, who have come through the pre-qualifying tournament to make it to the 2015 finals. Romania also have a chance of making it and Russia, too, may come good in the future.

The SRU can’t live in the past. Scotland don’t have a divine right to be in the Six Nations and, before time, they may drop out of that tournament, too, as other countries want promotion and relegation introduced.

Next season, there will be changes in the Heineken Cup that will take away Scotland’s two automatic qualification spots and with that goes important revenue.

There are those within the SRU who will claim you are overreacting off the back of just one poor Six Nations. After all, in 2013, Scotland won two matches and played some good rugby?

I accept that and I may have been more forgiving and not as concerned had the results been close. But it is the embarrassing failure and scale of underperformance that is alarming.  You can’t forget that the senior team were within 18 points of picking up the Wooden Spoon with a points difference of minus 91. Only England’s need to pile on the points against Italy saved us from finishing bottom of the Six Nations.  On top of that, Scotland Under-20s, the side that supposedly has the cream of the next generation of Scottish rugby players, lost all five matches with a points difference of minus 112.

The sevens team sit 12th out of 17 nations in the World Series — rock bottom of the established nations — while the Scotland women’s  sevens team didn’t even qualify for their series.  No Scottish club qualified for the quarter-finals of the British and Irish Cup and both Edinburgh and Glasgow Warriors failed to make the knock-out stages of the Heineken Cup.

So what has to be done and is there hope for the future?

Yes, there is hope, provided change happens.  A third professional team is a priority in order to give more  Scottish players the chance to play in the pro ranks. There is not a problem with some playing abroad — as that will happen — but a  balance has to be struck.  Give the best young Scottish  players a chance to ply their trade at the pro level by setting up a third professional team. And ensure that foreign players add value to the Scottish game and are not just  fillers for key positions.

Look at Ireland and the success and influence of their foreign players such as Ruan Pienaar at Ulster and Doug Howlett at  Munster to see how wise buys can improve the domestic game.  Sooner rather than later, Scottish Rugby needs to be organised into three fully integrated regional  operations with a pro team at the top, in the same style and shape as the Irish provinces, with a remit to develop future talent.  In addition, a special relationship should be built with London Scottish to attract the profligate number of young Scots inside the M25.

Where would the third team be based?

We already have Edinburgh and Glasgow Warriors and I don’t believe the Borders can sustain pro rugby.  The changing demographic of that special rugby region — and the decline of traditional industries — has rid the Borders of young men who could have gone on to be the new John Jeffrey, which is a big blow to Scottish Rugby in general.

A pro team in Aberdeen, with links to Inverness, Perth, Stirling and Dundee, would be the perfect location for the third franchise.  Martin Gilbert of Aberdeen Asset Management has said he is in favour and would support it all the way. When a man like him offers to become involved, that is a great opportunity for the SRU.

That is all well and good and something fans have been demanding for years. but, while Martin Gilbert’s support is welcome, it will cost £7million-a-year to fund a new team. His pockets are not that deep and, with an £11m debt, how does the SRU fund it?

There is an obvious way for the SRU to cut costs: They should try to thrash out a deal with the City of Edinburgh Council to sell and lease back Murrayfield.  This would remove the potential albatross around the neck of the game. They could also get the  Scottish Government involved.  Such a deal would release some much-needed funds immediately and could raise enough to help set up and fund a third pro team in Aberdeen, provided there is support, which I am sure there will be, from businesses in the north-east.

Murrayfield is a constant drain on the resources of the SRU, with the latest expenditure being on the pitch, which was a disgrace during the Six Nations. A lease-back scheme would give Edinburgh Council a top stadium they could use for other sports and allow the SRU to invest millions in the game north of the border.  For some, that may sound drastic, but it is the way forward.

Could there be a halfway house, with the SRU selling the naming rights to Murrayfield to raise a few million?

I heard they were interested in selling the naming rights but, so far, no big company has come forward.  That doesn’t surprise me as nobody wants to be associated with a losing team, so that plan is a non-starter until fortunes on the park improve.

The SRU would claim they are doing everything they can to get more people playing rugby and are simply hamstrung by the fact that Scotland is a small country where football is the number one sport?

I accept all of that and the SRU do a lot of good work — but I still feel more could be done to encourage youngsters to play the game.  I checked the International Rugby Board figures and Scotland have just 11,000 senior male players, which is half the number of Ireland, Wales and New Zealand. Italy, who were the only team we beat in the Six Nations this year, have 15,000.  Wales and Scotland have 15,000 teenage male players compared with 57,000 in Ireland and 47,000 in New Zealand.  Competition has to be improved at age-group level as the SRU has failed to address a self-preserving school system, which stops players reaching their full potential due to a lack of meaningful fixtures.

Compare that with the schools in Ireland where, from the age of 16, the best players receive effective, tailored strength and conditioning programmes and skill development, overseen by their provinces and teachers as they make the transition to the under-age and senior teams at provincial and national level.  

The SRU are trying to set up an eight-team semi-pro league below the full professional teams to drive up standards. Is that worth supporting?

It sounds like a good idea but how is that going to drive up standards? It may give pro players a chance of game time when they come back from injury but I’m not convinced of its merits. Also, which clubs do you choose to make semi-pro and what happens to the rest?  You have to rework things from the bottom up and don’t start improving things in the middle.

Are there other ways the best young Scottish talent could be brought through?

There is a need to restructure and reform community and youth rugby.  Why not introduce talent camps from age 12, as most of continental Europe, South Africa and New Zealand do for their top youngsters?  Develop multi-support community hubs in line with Sportscotland’s strategy, with these development initiatives reporting to a community board.

How confident are you that the current SRU chief executive Mark Dodson will heed your warning and look at your report?

I have no idea what he will do. This report was an attempt to put out there my concerns over the state of Scottish Rugby. I am not trying to be negative, I am trying to come up with solutions to the problems in Scottish Rugby.  If he wants to talk to me about it, I would be delighted to meet him.

Vern Cotter is taking over as Scotland head coach in the summer and Scott Johnson is the new Director of Rugby. Could these appointments help shake things up at Murrayfield?

Vern Cotter may help results with the national team but that could be just a short-term fix.

Johnson has been running the Scotland team for the last year or so since Andy Robinson left, so is maybe still learning the challenges he faces in trying to fix the game from grassroots level up.

I would ask the question — given this year’s dreadful performance by the Scotland team, the Scotland Under-20s, the Scotland women’s team and the sevens team in the IRB Sevens series — how can there be no change? In other nations, there would have been sackings or major changes.

Rather than setting fatuous targets such as winning the World Cup, it would be better for the SRU to try to double the number of registered players and set similar targets for growth in talented players, coaches and referees in excellent talent development systems and vibrant attractive competitions.

The culture in Scottish Rugby is world class at resisting change, as demonstrated by frequent tinkering with leagues to avoid relegation, voting against playing more rugby and other reforms to positively change the game.

To catch up with the rest of the world, Scottish Rugby has to take a number of quantum leaps, not small steps, starting now.

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[AsLongAsBut100ofUs]

And here's a link to Gray's report: http://renaissanceandcompany.com/blog/view?resid=687&from=/blog?page=0

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