How do Ward and Froch go about solving a problem like Golovkin?

Morning chaps,

First off, let me stress - this is not a thread to talk about Golovkin being (or not being) avoided, promotional disputes, PPV or standard viewing figures, purse splits, title belts, who will or won't fight X, Y and Z or any of that stuff. There's already a thread which has collapsed in to all of that. This is purely to consider the sweet science and what goes on inside those ropes!

Golovkin steps up to 168 and calls out both Ward and Froch. Simple questions - first, which one of this pair would you be more interested in seeing Golovkin against? Next, how does / can your preferred fighter go about giving themselves the best chance of beating the Kazakh? And finally, how does the fight go, and what makes you draw that conclusion?

I'm sure we've all got opinions but when it comes to the idea of Golovkin moving to Super-Middle we always seem to get caught up in talk of why the fights can't / won't happen, rather than theorising the action in the actual fights. So you're Rob McCracken or Virgil Hunter for the day - tell me how your man can beat GGG!

Cheers.

Neither can; rubbish answer for a debate I know but for me GGG deals with both and I can't see any other outcome..

Take Groves for instance; he has the skills and the jab to cause GGG problems; yet his stamina and chin are his weak spots and you can ill afford those against a puncher like Golovkin whose footwork and ability to close down the ring at all times will put him in close enough range to find that equaliser at some point during the fight.

Now while Froch doesn't have either of those aforementioned problems which Groves does, he doesn't have the boxing skills to keep Golovkin at bay. Some will point to the Abraham fight and more recently the 2nd meeting with Groves as signs that Froch can fight but that would ignore two key points.

1) Abraham isn't Golovkin; GGG has much better boxing skills, a much better jab and more importantly much better footwork.

2) The 2nd fight with Groves saw the man from Hammersmith fight at a much slower pace during the first 5 rounds...hence Froch was able to dictate and box off the jab a little more. Golovkin has no problems going 12 rounds at a good pace therefore Froch isn't facing a man who will have to conserve his energy at any point.

Obviously GGG may not carry his power up; but with Groves I don't think it matters too much as even without the power he has at 160, I think he would have enough at 168 to stop him. As for Froch I think he would either stop 'The Cobra' late on or simply outwork him to the body and on the inside taking a comfortable decision something like 116-112

Just noticed you said Ward, not Groves...haven't slept in two days!!

Well Ward most definitely has a chance and off the back of the Super 6 I would say he boxes his way to a tough decision victory; however his infrequent schedule and injuries may now give GGG the edge. I think much depends on whether Ward can fight as well on the inside against GGG as he did against Froch. In that fight I was surprised that even when the Brit got on the inside he was losing the exchanges. Now if Ward replicates that then you can't see anything other than a win for Andre; however GGG has shown himself to be a tremendous body puncher and inside fighter himself (see Rosado & Macklin)..if he can fight like that against the very best then it could be a very uncomfortable fight for Ward. I would make Ward favourite right now but it wouldn't shock me to see GGG get to the body and slow Ward down eventually outhustling him in the latter rounds on route to a close SD win....the big factor in this fight for me would be whether Ward could fight for 3 minutes around and show aggression throughout. I don't think he completely schools GGG in the way he did Froch because for me Gennady is a better boxer than Froch...therefore the American would could ill afford to stay boxing on the back foot throughout/take rounds off.

Froch's chin (like Calzaghe's at the tail end of his career) is no longer as sturdy as it once was so there's an opportunity there for Golovkin as well as working Froch's body, which no-one bar Ward has done.

The issue is whether or not Golovkin can withstand the punches that Froch will undoubtedly land once he gets inside. They're both very heavy handed so someone is going to wilt first. As the first fight with Groves showed, if you get Froch onto the back foot then he's much less effective and Golovkin does appear to only have two fight modes ("Stalk" and "Kill") so Froch needs to impose himself on GGG to try and make him more circumspect. Golovkin doesn't waste many punches though so there's the issue of stamina and whether or not one guy can keep his boxing neat and tidy as the fight wears on.

Think it's a close one and Froch's natural size advantage may just see his squeak a narrow points win but I wouldn't be surprised to see GGG nick it.

I think Ward is still several steps above GGG (then again, Ward is several steps above just about everyone) and I think he does everything better to keep Golovkin at bay or beat him on the inside and even nullify his work if he does manage to start getting through.

Ward a fairly clear UD

We haven't seen Golovkin go past 8 rounds for a while so im not entirely sure how he would fare going 12 rounds with somebody naturally bigger, stronger and much tougher than anybody he's faced. I think Froch would outwork him personally and it would come down to quality over quantity, he'd have a significant reach disadvantage to overcome too.

Don't give him much chance against Ward who is better in every area other than power, he'd maul him on the inside and outspeed him on the outside.

I'll make a short case for Froch. I think you need a good jab to stop GGG from walking you down and cutting the ring off. I think Froch's low left and jab could actually be a good weapon here, GGG could have trouble thinking he's out of range when he isn't. Froch's jab is underrated for me.

Sooner or later GGG's superior footwork catches Froch square and they'll trade and then it's a question of chins and how much power GGG takes up with him. Considering the styles I think it's an excellent fight.

Froch will be a more exciting fight obviously, and obdurate bigger that he is I wouldn't write him off... It would have to be classic froch though, tough it out behind on points, test ggg's stamina late on. I think if froch tries to box he's out worked and still caught and if he brawls he's out hit. 3G isn't showy but his footwork and basic boxing skills are very good, carl is going to get hit plenty... Can he take it... And at this stage of his career? I'm not sure. Will golovkin's power transfer or will he be neutered a little like nigel benn? It might take more work to get the bigger guys out but I suspect he still can. Ggg inside the distance for me, but never say never with froch if he can take the fight into the later rounds, and as dipper says, the froch jab and reach could keep him in it.

Ward, is a different proposition, he can be hurt, so I believe he would go if golovkin got him clean, but his boxing skills are such that he's very hard to catch clean, golovkin might be great at closing the distance, but I think ward would beat him to the punch and not let him get set, mix it up and break his rhythm. He might look a little pedestrian. Ward favourite for me.

At the end of the day golovkin hadn't had it all his own way all the time, and he hasn't fought a guy in froch's class let alone ward's, notwithstanding that they're bigger men. Trinidad was meant to walk through Hopkins. So, a lot of supposition going into this, but that's my take, both fights i'd like to see... Especially the froch one.

I am disappointed, a lack of responses on the Walker thread has made you go populist. The increased responses will not fill the emptiness in your sole. Trust me, I know.

Rowley wrote:I am disappointed, a lack of responses on the Walker thread has made you go populist. The increased responses will not fill the emptiness in your sole. Trust me, I know.

?????????????????

Rowley wrote:I am disappointed, a lack of responses on the Walker thread has made you go populist. The increased responses will not fill the emptiness in your sole. Trust me, I know.

Remember Mute and Moot.  

I thought throwing in a few superlatives for your old favourite McLarnin might inspire a few comments comparing Jimmy to Walker and the like, Jeff. But you're a cute enough operator to see through that kind of cheap move! So now I've had to sell out and write a rare thread about active, well-known fighters. Yuck.

Interesting that a couple have already talked about Golovkin decisioning Froch - when this fight has been talked about in the past, people almost seem to totally disregard the possibility of it going the full distance. Which is more proven at the very highest level - Froch's chin, or Golovkin's power? I'd say it's probably the former.

With that in mind it's not impossible to think that Golovkin might have to settle for outboxing Froch rather than taking him out. Golovkin likes to stalk patiently at mid range, which is exactly where Froch likes to fight as well; he doesn't really like chasing people, and he's not a particularly great inside fighter either, although he's definitely competent there.

All about whether Froch can use that reach to win the jab exchanges. Said it before but I think Golovkin has just slightly neglected things like head movement and making sure he doesn't leave himself open in his last few fights. Hasn't mattered against Adama and Geale because he's hurt them both early and made them tentative, and neither had the power to get his respect either. Hey, who knows, maybe he knows he's taking these liberties for those reasons and will rectify that when he feels he's in there with someone who can make him pay for them, but if Froch can make Golovkin taste his power before he has to taste Golovkin's he might be well placed to give Golovkin a seriously hard time of it.

We pretty much know how Froch is likely to approach it but it's harder to tell with Ward. I think the way that fight unfolds really depends on whether Golovkin's natural strength carries up to 168, rather than just his punching power. If at the higher weight it turns out he can't get everyone on the back foot like he does at 160 then Ward will probably outclass him. Ward says he always goes to the punchers rather than away from them and he certainly didn't show any concern for Froch's power. Froch got pushed back to the ropes and corners a lot in that fight. He did actually land some nice shots inside, usually to Ward's body, but once Ward realised he was stronger in close than Froch he just always had the last word in those kind of exchanges.

Common sense says that if a genuine Super-Middle like Froch can't prevent Ward from bossing it in close then a smaller man like Golovkin probably can't either....But Golovkin has so rarely had anyone punching in close with him that we don't really know how he'd do when faced with someone like Ward.

Ward is usually either out of range or right in your face and on top of you. Never really at that mid range which is why high volume might not be a good idea against him. But Bika matched Ward on the inside in their fight (and not just with fouls, either!) and Ward had to be content in that one to spend a lot more time at long range scoring with the jab and looking for counters rather than leaping in with short hooks and pushing his man back.

If Golovkin can do the same then it'll be interesting to see what he can land if he has that little bit of extra room to get on the front foot and make Ward move around the ring.

Much gets made of Ward's stamina as well, but I don't think he looked as tired towards the end against Froch as others do. As late as the tenth he was still mauling Froch on the inside and being the aggressor. Spent time back tracking and holding a bit in 11 and 12, but he never looked in serious danger or really vulnerable to me - just mindful that if he didn't do anything stupid, the fight was his. Also, rememeber who he was in against. Few fighters have got Froch's stamina and durability - not everyone is still going to be asking questions of Ward in the final two rounds after taking ten rounds of punishment beforehand like that.

Golovkin to decision Froch and Ward to decision Golovkin would be my best guess right now, but particularly in regards to the Froch fight it's a bit tricky to call with great conviction.

Strongback wrote:

Rowley wrote:I am disappointed, a lack of responses on the Walker thread has made you go populist. The increased responses will not fill the emptiness in your sole. Trust me, I know.

Remember Mute and Moot.  

... and "aspersions" and "dispersions".

superflyweight wrote:

Strongback wrote:

Rowley wrote:I am disappointed, a lack of responses on the Walker thread has made you go populist. The increased responses will not fill the emptiness in your sole. Trust me, I know.

Remember Mute and Moot.  

... and "aspersions" and "dispersions".  

...and "pentagons" and "pentagrams"

Good article Chris

I think that Curtis ''showtime'' Stevens has already laid down the blueprint on how to beat GGG.

Yes I know he lost the fight against Golovkin but he showed more then enough clues before getting caught on how to handle and to a large degree outbox GGG. 

Before the knockdown which ended the fight Stevens demonstrated that GGG can not deal with fast accurate combination punching. Stevens managed to tee off on Golovkins face with apparent ease which suggests to me that the defence of GGG does not come naturally as it does to great fighters like Toney, Mayweather etc.

Stevens right hand was a frustrating factor for GGG before he landed the left hook to Stevens which put him down. Lets not forget that Stevens is like just over 4 foot 9 so very tiny yet he was able to find GGG's chin at will. Now that may come down to Steven's real boxing talent which he has or Golovkins poor boxing brain.

I think a bit of both.

ONETWOFOREVER wrote:Good article Chris

Stevens managed to tee off on Golovkins face with apparent ease which suggests to me that the defence of GGG does not come naturally as it does to great fighters like Toney, Mayweather etc.

Lets not forget that Stevens is like just over 4 foot 9 so very tiny yet he was able to find GGG's chin at will.

.

I'm going to have to go back and watch the Stevens fight but I most certainly don't remember either of those things happening!

Yes Curtis had success, and yes he caught him with couple of big shots...but never did he 'land at will' or 'tee of on his face with ease'...the fight as I remember it saw Golovkin take a look at Stevens during the first, land a huge bomb in the 2nd before Stevens found a measure of success in the 3rd & 4th (although still he lost both) before GGG began to break him down before stopping him in the 8th...

owen10ozzy wrote:

ONETWOFOREVER wrote:Good article Chris

Stevens managed to tee off on Golovkins face with apparent ease which suggests to me that the defence of GGG does not come naturally as it does to great fighters like Toney, Mayweather etc.

Lets not forget that Stevens is like just over 4 foot 9 so very tiny yet he was able to find GGG's chin at will.

.

I'm going to have to go back and watch the Stevens fight but I most certainly don't remember either of those things happening!

Yes Curtis had success, and yes he caught him with couple of big shots...but never did he 'land at will' or 'tee of on his face with ease'...the fight as I remember it saw Golovkin take a look at Stevens during the first, land a huge bomb in the 2nd before Stevens found a measure of success in the 3rd & 4th (although still he lost both) before GGG began to break him down before stopping him in the 8th...

It depend how you view the fight.

If you see it as a GGG fan boy (which you are) then GGG fought the perfect fight but if you view it with a boxing brain *as I do) then you would have seen a close fight with Stevens asking GGG all sorts of questions before getting tagged. GGG changed his thinking in the fight after Stevens because he had been exposed by a better all rounded fighter.

ONETWOFOREVER wrote:Good article Chris

I think that Curtis ''showtime'' Stevens has already laid down the blueprint on how to beat GGG.

Yes I know he lost the fight against Golovkin but he showed more then enough clues before getting caught on how to handle and to a large degree outbox GGG.

Before the knockdown which ended the fight Stevens demonstrated that GGG can not deal with fast accurate combination punching. Stevens managed to tee off on Golovkins face with apparent ease which suggests to me that the defence of GGG does not come naturally as it does to great fighters like Toney, Mayweather etc.

Stevens right hand was a frustrating factor for GGG before he landed the left hook to Stevens which put him down. Lets not forget that Stevens is like just over 4 foot 9 so very tiny yet he was able to find GGG's chin at will. Now that may come down to Steven's real boxing talent which he has or Golovkins poor boxing brain.

I think a bit of both.

May as well replace the words "Stevens" and "Golovkin" with "Groves" and "Froch"

Sadly, the result is all that matter.

What is the 'fan boy' term you bandy about ONETWO;

Given the fact I have stated that Ward would beat him (assuming he shows no signs of ring rust/ever gets back into the ring) I'm not sure how I am one...just because I like a fighter doesn't mean I'm believing that they are unbeatable or anything.

As I mentioned in my post; yes Stevens did have success and yes he did ask some questions of him...

As always you never seem able to find a middle ground; found his face with ease and found his chin at will?! Your either blind or stupid..i'll wager on the latter.

In your last post you said 'a close fight'...yet in your original one you said GGG was outboxed, was punched in the face with ease and at will & was frustrated all night by the right hand which was too fast for him...   You really do need to look over what you've post before posting a reply to someone!

ONETWOFOREVER wrote:

owen10ozzy wrote:

ONETWOFOREVER wrote:Good article Chris

Stevens managed to tee off on Golovkins face with apparent ease which suggests to me that the defence of GGG does not come naturally as it does to great fighters like Toney, Mayweather etc.

Lets not forget that Stevens is like just over 4 foot 9 so very tiny yet he was able to find GGG's chin at will.

.

I'm going to have to go back and watch the Stevens fight but I most certainly don't remember either of those things happening!

Yes Curtis had success, and yes he caught him with couple of big shots...but never did he 'land at will' or 'tee of on his face with ease'...the fight as I remember it saw Golovkin take a look at Stevens during the first, land a huge bomb in the 2nd before Stevens found a measure of success in the 3rd & 4th (although still he lost both) before GGG began to break him down before stopping him in the 8th...

It depend how you view the fight.

If you see it as a GGG fan boy (which you are) then GGG fought the perfect fight but if you view it with a boxing brain *as I do) then you would have seen a close fight with Stevens asking GGG all sorts of questions before getting tagged. GGG changed his thinking in the fight after Stevens because he had been exposed by a better all rounded fighter.

Behind 79-71, 80-71 and 79-72 being floored and then stopped. Stevens done a very good job hiding the fact hes a better all round fighter that night.

I think Golovkin would do a number on Froch and either stop him or win most rounds.

Ward is a different proposition. Golovkin could conceivably catch him with something huge but Ward would likely maul, spoil and hustle his way to victory. The longer Ward stays in stasis, though, the better Golovkin's chances become.

No-one will have an easy night with him in his current form, though. He looks a potentially great fighter and a level above someone like Froch.

A level above Froch might be a bit extreme. He's been bowling over the same level guys that Froch deals with easily as well. Geale, Stevens and Macklin are a similar level to Bute, Mack and Abraham.

bellchees wrote:A level above Froch might be a bit extreme. He's been bowling over the same level guys that Froch deals with easily as well. Geale, Stevens and Macklin are a similar level to Bute, Mack and Abraham.

Maybe I should rephrase that: he looks a level above Froch to me. He still has to prove that, which I'm convinced he will.

Abraham and Bute are a clear level above those lot.

Bute a level above Geale, not sure about that...especially when you add to the equation that Geale at least has a chin to write home about...as for Abraham the guy was only ever effective at Middleweight and resembled a lost sheep stumbling around the mire's once he stepped up to 168!

I would however put the likes of Kessler, Dirrel, Taylor and Pascal above anything GGG has faced thus far.

Frochs jab is overrated. I could see Golovkin getting the better jab work notwithstanding the shorter reach. Those wicked body shots in close would be like nothing Froch has dealt with before either. As long he doesn't have stamina issues then he should beat Froch. Hes extremely economical with punches and movement so I don't think that would be an issue. I cant see the fight ever happening though. Froch doesnt need it and wont want it at this stage of his career.

I'd fancy Golovkin to stop this version of Froch. Granite chinned and all that. He'd be better off staying clear, make more money with DeGale and retire.

Ward is the tougher one to call but Ward on points looks the likeliest outcome. I'd like to see how Golovkin takes being hit a lot over a longer distance in a competitive also. Punchers with dodgy chins and all that.