Doing the inventory: England

First topic message reminder :

Doing the inventory: England

Edit: I will update with backs when I have time. This took longer than expected.

Hey guys,
 
This page is for discussing the England team and set up ahead of the run in to the RWC and please please add your comments whichever team you support. Also please feel free to add your own "inventories" for your own national teams for comparison's sake. It's very interesting to see other teams from their fans' points of view and also those Same fans' opinions on our team!

There is a lot of debate over what England's best side is, what players we have available and what needs to be sorted before the World Cup. As we are 1 year out in terms of competitive domestic and international play, I thought it would be great to go through every position and do a stock check of our current, RWC and future prospects there, highlighting our likely squad and first team as well as our strengths and weaknesses. This is all my own opinion so please feel free to add yours or correct me if I have stated something factually incorrect.


LH- this is indubitably an area of strength. Already ready for England we have Lions Alex Corbisiero (great scrummager, but injury concern, when fit has impressed hugely and looks potentially a world class player) and Mako Vunipola (had some issues recently in the scrum but young, improving and a devastating carrier, a real impact sub to use against weaker scrummaging nations), not to mention new Quins captain and one of the most improved international players last year, Joe Marler (hugely better in the scrum under the new laws, offers a lot in terms of work rate but seems to have lost the ball playing and running that originally won him plaudits at club level). The RWC squad will have all 3 in, which starting is hard to say and probably depends on Corbs' knees.

Behind these 3, we have several players who could step in at this moment in time and a good looking future.

Gloucester's Wood was once highly vaunted but appears to have lost a lot of form. Matt Mullan has played for England and has the work in the loose and solid set piece to be a good 4th choice. Alex Waller looked great last season for Saints and if Corbs isn't fit he will get a chance to shine again- he's also young and will get capped in my opinion. His brother Ethan looks promising (though possibly will move to tight head). Barrington has potential though probably not enough to get capped, and Balmain with his ability to play both sides of te scrum surely has a strong future. Nathan Catt is another I could see doing a job if needed and has a good future. Interestingly my searches reveal that Sale have a Moldovan prop, good to see less known rugby nations have players at this level!

All in all, I think we can say Marler, Corbs and Vunipola are tier one (all int class, one top int class and one possibly world class), with Catt, Mullan and Waller behind and Balmain possibly the future. Here we are strong

Hooker- hooker has been an area of huge worry for years, but we seem to be strong here right now. Established options are Hartley (in form, an exceptional player though with a tendency to pop up in the scrum and recent indiscretions, also adds leadership), Webber (looks in form, partnership with Wilson, has taken his chances well) and Lion Tom Youngs (worries re his size, hooking and throwing! But can get the throwing perfectly when in a groove, great at carrying and the breakdown, adds a dimension to our dynamic pack).

Behind these players, we have Paice, who doesn't impress me, George who needs gametime but has huge promise especially in tight carrying for Sarries (he can learn from literally the best in the premiership) and 3 players for Quins. Joe Gray is technically excellent but small and injury prone. Buchanan is powerful and a carrier but raw. Ward is a turnover and ripping machine with a backrow's linkman skills and a centre's pace but has awful days at the lineout and is also small. Any would be ok for me filling in as 4th for England.

Cowan Dickie, once a prop, has lots of potential but needs another season in the shirt for Exeter. Lindsay of Wasps has fallen off his huge potential and I can only hope he springs back.

Overall, Hartley, Webber and Youngs are a good trio, Ward and Gray are good backup and with LCD and George the future looks bright too, certainly better than a few years ago.

TH- this is a tricky area for every team. Currently Dan Cole is injured and was in poor form, but he has been a top level international TH with experience, good technique and an exceptional man in the breakdown. Dave Wilson has filled in nicely for him. Thomas doesn't not convince me hugely as 3rd choice but his cameos have been ok, and he should improve his scrummaging at Bath though may also lose his place playing regularly in the premiership behind Wilson.

We have mentioned Ethan Waller as one for the future. Jake Cooper Wooley of Wasps, who started as a LH is another. Harden and Knight have struggled in a weak Gloucester pack. This looks improved next seasons but this might stop them from getting gametime. Newcastle offer one for the present, the impressive Kieron Brookes, and the future with the raw but talented Wilson. Quins' PDJ looks a spent force but Sinckler looks certain for a cap with his quick learning and strong, pacey carrying. Collier is another Quins option maybe a little less talented but closer to ready.

Cole and Wilson, in uncertain order, will play. The 3rd choice is more open, Thomas could keep it but I see Brookes or Collier leapfrogging him. In the future, we should be ok with JCW, Sinckler and "little" Wilson.

Locks- lots of debate over our starting duo. For me it is still Lawes (much improved over the last season, and fulfilling his potential at last, with soft hands and athleticism) and Launchbury (essentially an extra flanker as well as a lock), closely followed by Attwood to add a power option and Parling for his experience and lineout skills. I can see the argument to start Launchbury with whichever of the above had his club mate at hooker, but as this will be Hartley that changes nothing.

Saracens' Botha has caps and though shouldn't be near starting would not let England down in a crisis. Same goes for Robson of Quins, and Day of Saints is very underrated. None are particularly exciting though. Tigers have a blessing of riches here, with Slater (also a 6) very promising and IMO next in line, but Kitchener also highly rated for a different sort of lock. Deacon's time is last but he would still be acceptable if needed. George Skivington is IMO very underrated and is a player I'd like to see get a chance though I suspect he won't. Schofield is unlikely to add to his caps. Palmer is too old but could step in if in dire need, and Savage looks a good player with a potential cap for me.


For the future, though Launch is young, Matthews has yet to fulfil his promise but looks on track after the end of last seasons for Quins. Will Carrick Smlth is a monster that I know little else about. Stookes has potential as does George Kruis, but Dom Barrow possibly has the most of all, and Itoje in the longer term looks a certain cap.


I'd say Launch + Lawes, Parling and Attwood followed by Kitchener and Slater, with Kruis and Barrow as the future.

6- an interesting Position with many roles. Tom Wood is an excellent 6 who works with our 7, and a good leader. Behind him, James Haskell finally looks the real deal. Tom Johnson is solid but unexceptional, an option certainly.

Callum Clarke is loved by Lancaster but not by some fans. I think he had a great season last year but is not the player to bring England forward. Matt Garvey is NOT loved by Lancaster but is exactly te option at 6 or lock we could do with. In his absence (we assume), Slater could fill in at 6. Kruis is a decent 6 but a better lock, and Wray is good but not enough to cap. If Croft can come back well from injury and stay fit he adds something no other englAnd forward can (real attacking running and a great lineout) and is a shoe in for the squad, lack of physicality or not. Gibson has also looked very good for Tigers and deserves a shot at some point but also lacks power. Tom Guest is too old now to get his first cap realistically much to my dismay. Gaskell frankly doesn't impress me much at all. Welch and Wilson at Falcons look good players but unlikely to feature. Carl Fearns adds power and isn't shabby at the breakdown and should be considered too.

In terms of the future, Charlie Blair Walker is an exciting player, and S Jones will surely get capped at 6 or 7, otherwise I struggle to see many young but not academy players in this position. Moriarity could break through if his pack gives him the platform.

7- here Robshaw stands alone with Armitage in exile. Armitage's carrying and scavenging would be useful but not enough to set a dangerous precedent. Robshaw is a jack of all trades, master of all trades though sadly I expect him to go underrated his entire career. After him comes Kvesic who has had good spells, and offers a blend of breakdown and tackling but had a poor season at Gloucester. He will hope his new-look pack can help him out because he is talented.

At Saints, Clarke and wood can play 7. Dowson didn't look up to int level at all. Will Fraser has genuine talent and I hope he can stay fit as he is both present and future. Luke Wallace will get gametime at 6 and when Robshaw is away. He's a great ball player and fetcher but easily caught out of position. Scaysborough is a solid 7 but unlikely to get a look in, and the same applies for Betty, Seymour and Lund. Guy Thompson impresses me as a utility back row but not enough, Rowan looks an option for the future.  Andy Saull seems to have fallen off the horizon, and I can't see him fighting back in.


I think Wood, Haskell and Robshaw are certains here. After that it becomes hard. Slater can play 6. I would love Garvey but doubt we'll see him. After that, Fraser and Kvesic and maybe Wallace at 7 (Rowan and Jones future options) and Fearns, Gibson and Croft at 6 (Kruis and Moriarity maybe the future here). I thought we'd be stronger than we are at flanker.

8- in Billy Vunipola and Morgan we have 2 great options at 8, both powerful though with different carrying specialties. Haskell adds extra cover here too.

After these two, we are better here than I thought. Dickinson is solid. Easter is old but could fill in come the RWC in his current state (ie phenomenal). Crane is back on track with Waldrom ( no thanks) gone. Jack Clifford is the future. Fearns can play here and Burgess may be trialled here. Guest is getting on but good enough, ditto Narraway, York has fallen off the radar. And Ewers is raw but talented.


I would say Billy and Morgan helped by Haskell, with Ewers next, maybe Crane and Easter in an emergency. Clifford for the future, plus Billy will be playing for years to come.



So that gives a pack of

Marler, Corbs, Vunipola
Youngs, Hartley, Webber
Cole, Wilson, Brookes
Lawes,Launchbury, Parling, Attwood
Wood, Haskell, Croft
Robshaw, Fraser
Vunipola, Morgan


The backs:

England's backs have long been seen as an issue- with a dearth of flair, and thanks to the likes of Andy Robinson, a graveyard where the careers of promising young tyros chucked in the deep end go to die (I will never forgive the way he ruined Tait and Allen). However, a few key issues aside, I honestly feel we are stronger than most realise here and certainly stronger than any time in the past 10 years, a few fantastic players from that period aside.


9- not long ago, with Care lacking consistency and maturity and Youngs falling out of form, this was a big worry. However, Care seems to have grown into the player he should have been, fantastic for Quins, bringing that form to England and improving his pass, kick and mind to go with his high tempo and playmaking. Similarly, Youngs looked to be refinding his form at the end of last season and looking like the player we thought could be the best 9 in the world. Behind them, Lee Dickson isn't very exciting but he is solid enough for England and had a great season for Saints.

Behind these 3, Wrigglesworth is not a particularly flashy choice but he is an excellent tactical 9 and I would happily see him play in white. His club mate Spencer looks a long term option, with a similarly good kicking game. Joel Hodgson has gone down the pecking order by moving to Saints but with his skillset and 2 good 9s to learn from is another to watch out for. I don't know much about Harrison, but Karl Dickson at Quins is a solid player who could fill in if needed (not on last season's form though) and Burns and Stuart are ones to watch but need to add cleverness to their pace. Chiefs have 3 solid 9s in Lewis, Chudley and Thomas though I don't know enough about them to say if they could get caps. I don't hugely rate Young but Cook at Bath looks promising and Robson at Glaws too though he'll need to get ahead of Laidlaw, who I think is a silly buy for the club. Simpson offers a lot but also has too many flaws (like his pass...) for me to pick him for England.

Here we can easily say care, Youngs and Dickson, IMO followed by Wriggles and with Cook, Robson and Spencer my picks for the future.


10- more contentious here. Farrell, with his kicking and defence, is clearly the favourite here and has improved his attack but is still never going to be a Spencer or Larkham, and there are rumours he might be tried at 12 in the AIs. Behind him, it's a close 3 way race with Flood taking himself out of the picture. Burns had an awful season, but promises so much in terms of attack and using his backs, and if he can get ahead of Williams he will have a better platform at Tigers. Cipriani has lost the unplayable verve he once had but has also improved his temperament, defence and control and frankly looks the most balanced 10 we have in my eyes, whether he is trusted by others is another question. Ford has shown great tactical kicking and passing but poor goal kicking and is rather small for international rugby. Picking our 10s is key and is a real challenge.

Behind these players, Myler is solid. Hodgson has retired but Goode looked good in his cameos at 10 for Sarries and some have questioned the decision to ever move him from 10 to 15. Billy Burns is too young now but looks even better than his brother and Slade also looks a top quality player. Andy Goode is too old, and Geraghty seems to have fallen off the track that saw him shine so brightly in that one 6N campaign. Clegg too seems to have lost his touch and gone from flakey but a good attacker at Quins to a kicker with no flair at Falcons. I've heard good things about young Joe Ford. Barkley is past it IMO.

Farrell plus 2 of Cips, Ford and Burns, probably Ford and Burns though I think that's not the best call. For the future, mini Burns and Slade look most promising.


12- our biggest problem. Twelvetrees has looked great in spells but subpar in others. Eastmond with the opportunity to attack also looks class but was found massively defensively lacking in t3 in NZ. Burrell can play 12 but with Manu at 13? Can Manu play 12? Farrell? No easy decision here. Barritt has been a stalwart when given the chance but with Farrell at 10 and Manu at 13, that attack just seems far too blunt.


After the current squad members, there are other options. I hugely rate Allen and think he really does deserve another chance (damn you Robinson!). He has the passing (though his role for Tigers doesn't use it that often), the running lines and the defensive leadership to be what we need. However, it looks too late for Allen as he would have been picked before now were it to happen. Chris Bell is another solid clubman who I doubt raises enough pulses to get a chance. Burgess could come in at 12 but until he plays a minute of Union there is no way I can see him playing for England. Devoto looks a future star though. I don't know much about Guy Armitage at all, I'm sure Pete can enlighten me. Sam Hill I have seen and he impresses me a lot. Casson has lost a lot of form for Quins and whilst a fit JTH is vital for us and should have the power and offload to do well for England, his few caps didn't exactly inspire. And he's never ever fit. May at Welsh is ok but not an int. The last centre who springs to mind is Stephenson, for the future at least.


12 is hard but let's stick with 36 and Eastmond, with Burrell predominantly a 13 but an option. I'd love to see Allen there but we won't. For the future, Stephenson and Hill for me but I wouldn't be surprised or upset to see Devoto there.

13- Manu Tuilagi is, for his flaws (that strangely seem to materialise for England- he passes well at Tigers), a lethal player who must be in the squad. He made Conrad Smith look like a schoolboy. Burrell was poor in NZ but had a storming 6N and deserves to be there too.

After this, it becomes harder. Bath's Devoto could play 13, and hopefully Banahan is a no. Joseph looked promising but has dropped off. Tompkins is another for the future, and Tomkins didn't look international class when given the chance and I think is back in league. Can't see Waldouck making it either. Quins have some talented young centres in Sloan (probably won't make it) and Marchant (could do in the future, but very young) and Hopper impresses some. He's too flakey for me and Lowe, if he reaches his previous form from before this horrible injury, is a real possibility, underrated in attack and defence. Daly has IMO all the weapons to play 13 and hopefully will start there and not at 15 for Wasps. Trinder is another good player but needs to stay fit. The others at Falcons etc don't look like options to me.

So manu and Burrell then. I'd have Lowe and Daly next, then Daly, Tompkins and Devoto as the future.

Wing- we have had issues here but I actually think the options are good and varied. We are just low on time to pick them properly. Yarde, now playing with Brown at Quins, has nailed one shirt down with his attack. The other main contenders are Ashton, who had a good club season but may have run out of lives, May, who can't seem to run straight and fulfill his promise, Nowell, who improved through the 6N but doesn't score many tries (adds a lot else though, similar to Watson, another option) and Wade who is untested thanks to injury but looks magic to me and must get a run out frankly. Then FBs like Foden are also in the mix.

Saints also have Elliott, who is understated and does his basics very well. I think he could do well alla Cueto, who himself is too old now days. Thompstone doesn't quite look up to this level and Benjamin needs to prove he is still the player he looked before injury. Strettle does it all at club level but has struggled for England. Williams will never get capped after the B word, Monye has lost his pace but Charlie Walker looks like he might be a future England winger with his pace and ability to play 13 and 15. Arnott and Jess aren't quite there, neither is Brady. Cato hasn't fulfilled his potential but Kiribirige looks the real deal for Falcons in a few years. Ojo has missed the boat, and Lewington looks good but not great (don't know how James Short has been doing at Irish, looked good at Sarries). Sharples has fallen from favour but is still a great attacker if we need more in attack, JSD is too old now. Woodburn is quick but I don't know much about him. Can't see Banahan getting another chance, and Rocky is on the list for the Saxons but I think unlikely to make the full step up. Earle looks lethal as a future winger. Stegmann and Sam Smith are too flawed in defence without the pure danger to counter this. Finally Varndell is a long shot but still a menace to defences at AP level.


I'd go with Yarde and Wade, with Watson, Nowell and May as back ups for now.

All are young but other youngsters to step up are Earle, Walker and Kiribirige.


15- Mike Brown has the shirt if he can approach his AI and 6N form of last year when he was possibly the best in the World. Behind him Foden is proven int class but in my eyes has never neared his form of 3-4 years ago. Goode needs pace outside him but adds a dimension to how England can play. And May, daly, Nowell, Watson can all play FB too. It is a global area of strength and every club has an option here.

With Abendanon leaving and Watson a winger, Bath can offer the solid Luke Arscott. Gloucester have lost (once England vaunted) Olly Morgan but Cook looks promising at 15. Wasps now have the decent option of Miller if Daly (please!!!) stays at 13. Irish have Homer, who i see mostly as a kicker. Catterick and Tait probably not good enough at Falcons. Tom Arscott very underrated and wouldn't be too out of place. Chiefs will probably start Nowell at 15. Sarries have Goode but Ransom is ok too, and Welsh have some players I don't really know much about. Pennell, loyally staying at Wuss despite being in the NZ tour squad, is utterly class and I hope he gets to come back up. After MB for Quins is Chisholm who is dangerously pacy (but has been injured a fair bit) and OLH who wants to play 15s like it's 7s. Matt Tait is looking like the player e could have been if not for Robinson and injuries again but is still made of the same glass as Warburton and Pocock.

FBs have to be Brown, Foden, Goode, with the wingers as back ups and maybe Pennell if he goes on loan. For the future, Cook, maybe Earle and Watson look grand.


So all in all the backs look like:

Care, Youngs
Farrell, Burns,
Twelvetrees, (Eastmond)
Manu, Burrell,
Wade, Yarde, Watson (Nowell, May)
Brown, Goode, Foden

I'll comment on the overall situation, plan etc tomorrow.

ChequeredJersey wrote:

bluestonevedder wrote:

beshocked wrote:

GeordieFalcon wrote:His communication?? Oh Beshocked we've argued this so many times. Its boring.

Your golden Boy Goode was not to blame though was he? Surely as the senior experienced player...HE should take charge of the situation over a 19yo playing his first senior international in Paris??

Goode was partly to blame sure but Goode had just come onto the pitch recently and was out of position (think he was though perhaps someone can verify). Plus he's not a player anyone rates (except for perhaps Lancaster and Greenwood).

Oh and I hold Lancaster more responsible than either Nowell and Goode.

No Goode went to fullback, with Brown shifting to the wing.

actually initially Goode WAS at wing, then when we let the try in, we moved Brown there as SL realised Goode at wing was madness

That's what I thought.

The same problem keeps hurting England again and again - the issues on the wings. It's a lack of strike power or the inability to tackle.

Lancaster needs to sort this out.

Neutralee wrote:

funnyExiledScot wrote:There certainly was in that 3rd Test. When NZ increased the tempo England couldn't cope. The scramble was poor and the outside backs were all sucked in leaving huge spaces out wide.

Theres generally only one reason for wingers getting sucked in, and thats in the pack!

Exactly right. Whilst Eastmond didn't exactly cope well with being left exposed in the middle, he should not have been put in that position in the first place. He showed in the first test that there's nothing wrong with his one on one defence.

beshocked wrote:

ChequeredJersey wrote:

bluestonevedder wrote:

beshocked wrote:

GeordieFalcon wrote:His communication?? Oh Beshocked we've argued this so many times. Its boring.

Your golden Boy Goode was not to blame though was he? Surely as the senior experienced player...HE should take charge of the situation over a 19yo playing his first senior international in Paris??

Goode was partly to blame sure but Goode had just come onto the pitch recently and was out of position (think he was though perhaps someone can verify). Plus he's not a player anyone rates (except for perhaps Lancaster and Greenwood).

Oh and I hold Lancaster more responsible than either Nowell and Goode.

No Goode went to fullback, with Brown shifting to the wing.

actually initially Goode WAS at wing, then when we let the try in, we moved Brown there as SL realised Goode at wing was madness

That's what I thought.

The same problem keeps hurting England again and again - the issues on the wings. It's a lack of strike power or the inability to tackle.

Lancaster needs to sort this out.

My mistake, sorry  

Neutralee wrote:

funnyExiledScot wrote:There certainly was in that 3rd Test. When NZ increased the tempo England couldn't cope. The scramble was poor and the outside backs were all sucked in leaving huge spaces out wide.

Theres generally only one reason for wingers getting sucked in, and thats in the pack!

I'm not sure I understand

ChequeredJersey wrote:

Neutralee wrote:

funnyExiledScot wrote:There certainly was in that 3rd Test. When NZ increased the tempo England couldn't cope. The scramble was poor and the outside backs were all sucked in leaving huge spaces out wide.

Theres generally only one reason for wingers getting sucked in, and thats in the pack!

I'm not sure I understand

If the opposition are on the front foot, and your pack isn't slowing down the ball and defending the sides of the ruck properly, the backs have to come in to ensure that there are no easy yards close to the ruck. As the backline comes in to defend the fringes, it leaves holes out wide, meaning the defence is stretched with you backs having to defend larger areas. This happened in the 3rd Test and it is not ideal against the All Blacks, who are adept at spotting those sorts of gaps, and with someone like Aaron Smith at 9 it doesn't take many seconds for the ball to be where you least want it, and with players like Nonu and Smith against you, and Ben Smith joining the like from fullback, a half gap usually equates to 7 points against. The English pack were overrun in patches in that 3rd Test, and yet the blame seemed to be heaped onto the backs for missing tackles. Sure, Yarde did his best impression of Tim Visser against Cory Janes, and Eastmond certainly didn't adapt well to being overrun (although query what he could have done being left to cover all that space), but the momentum was with the All Blacks and that momentum comes from the pack.

Totally irrelevant but just seen Haskell in a red range rover texting while driving in South Kensington
Listening to terrible dance music as well

funnyExiledScot wrote:

ChequeredJersey wrote:

Neutralee wrote:

funnyExiledScot wrote:There certainly was in that 3rd Test. When NZ increased the tempo England couldn't cope. The scramble was poor and the outside backs were all sucked in leaving huge spaces out wide.

Theres generally only one reason for wingers getting sucked in, and thats in the pack!

I'm not sure I understand

If the opposition are on the front foot, and your pack isn't slowing down the ball and defending the sides of the ruck properly, the backs have to come in to ensure that there are no easy yards close to the ruck. As the backline comes in to defend the fringes, it leaves holes out wide, meaning the defence is stretched with you backs having to defend larger areas. This happened in the 3rd Test and it is not ideal against the All Blacks, who are adept at spotting those sorts of gaps, and with someone like Aaron Smith at 9 it doesn't take many seconds for the ball to be where you least want it, and with players like Nonu and Smith against you, and Ben Smith joining the like from fullback, a half gap usually equates to 7 points against. The English pack were overrun in patches in that 3rd Test, and yet the blame seemed to be heaped onto the backs for missing tackles. Sure, Yarde did his best impression of Tim Visser against Cory Janes, and Eastmond certainly didn't adapt well to being overrun (although query what he could have done being left to cover all that space), but the momentum was with the All Blacks and that momentum comes from the pack.

Exactly ^^^ nobody there to slow ball ala mccaw, Pocock, Warburton and the defence has to get tighter and tighter to plug the gaps left by men on the floor due to ruckspeed. Steffan Armitage would solve this problem, but maybe it'll be for France.

Indeed
Armitage has stated he wants to play for France
When he met with lancs he was told he couldn't play in the autumn or the 6 nations
So there we have it

Lancaster has gathered 55 players for a four day training camp starting tonight
He has also stated the eps and Saxons will be announced in October

55-man training squad??!!!

Get cracking CJ. Your inventory's on the light side compared to that monstrosity!

beshocked wrote:His lack of communication was part of the reason we lost to France.

When Nowell left the field injured, England were ahead. It could even be said that were Nowell to have continued, rather than Burrell moving to the wing, France wouldn't have scored that third try.

sickofwendy wrote:Indeed
Armitage has stated he wants to play for France
When he met with lancs he was told he couldn't play in the autumn or the 6 nations
So there we have it

He hasn't said that. It is "understood" he's applying for a French passport which would open the door. He hasn't even publicly confirmed that.

At some point, he'll have to show his hand but he hasn't turned his back on England yet.

55 man training squad...so thats the first team and most of the saxons squad as well i would say.

Be interesting to see how the likes of Tom Croft are looking.

http://www.rfu.com/news/2014/august/news-articles/100814_loughborough_training_squad


England training squad

Loose-head props
Alex Corbisiero (Northampton Saints)
Joe Marler (Harlequins)
Matt Mullan (Wasps)
Mako Vunipola (Saracens)

Tight-head props
Kieran Brookes (Newcastle Falcons)
Henry Thomas (Bath Rugby)
David Wilson (Bath Rugby)

Hookers
Luke Cowan-Dickie (Exeter Chiefs)
Dylan Hartley (Northampton Saints)
Rob Webber (Bath Rugby)
Tom Youngs (Leicester Tigers)

Locks
Dave Attwood (Bath Rugby)
Joe Launchbury (Wasps)
Courtney Lawes (Northampton Saints)
Geoff Parling (Leicester Tigers)
Ed Slater (Leicester Tigers)

Back rows
Calum Clark (Northampton Saints)
Tom Croft (Leicester Tigers)
Will Fraser (Saracens)
James Haskell (Wasps)
Tom Johnson (Exeter Chiefs)
Matt Kvesic (Gloucester Rugby)
Ben Morgan (Gloucester Rugby)
Chris Robshaw (Harlequins)
Billy Vunipola (Saracens)
Tom Wood (Northampton Saints)
Jackson Wray (Saracens)

Scrum halves
Danny Care (Harlequins)
Lee Dickson (Northampton Saints)
Richard Wigglesworth (Saracens)
Ben Youngs (Leicester Tigers)

Fly halves
Freddie Burns (Leicester Tigers)
Danny Cipriani (Sale Sharks)
Owen Farrell (Saracens)
George Ford (Bath Rugby)
Stephen Myler (Northampton Saints)
Henry Slade (Exeter Chiefs)

Centres
Anthony Allen (Leicester Tigers)
Brad Barritt (Saracens)
Luther Burrell (Northampton Saints)
Kyle Eastmond (Bath Rugby)
Jonathan Joseph (Bath Rugby)
Henry Trinder (Gloucester Rugby)
Manusamoa Tuilagi (Leicester Tigers)
Billy Twelvetrees (Gloucester Rugby)

Back threes
Chris Ashton (Saracens)
Mike Brown (Harlequins)
Ben Foden (Northampton Saints)
Alex Goode (Saracens)
Jonny May (Gloucester Rugby)
Jack Nowell (Exeter Chiefs)
Chris Pennell (Worcester Warriors)
Marland Yarde (Harlequins)
Christian Wade (Wasps)
Anthony Watson (Bath Rugby)

The following players will not join the training squad this week due to injury:
Dan Cole (Leicester Tigers)
Sam Dickinson (Northampton Saints)
Ollie Devoto (Bath Rugby)

Quick scan through .. Garvey has definitely slept with Lancaster's mother, sister, daughter and wife (possibly all at once) (may not actually be true)

Surprised that Daly isn't in such a large squad either, although back 3 competition is fierce and not sure he is being looked at as a centre just yet

I think Ed Slater is probably seen as a better version of Garvey and is a captain aswell.

6 flyhalves?!! I just don't understand the point of including so many players. Is it designed to put the fear of god into the incumbents or is he trying to encourage even more competition for places?

The group size just seems too unwieldy to do anything constructive. Has SL taken a size does matter quip to heart?

I think its more the fact we have so many options but we really dont know who to pick.

So he'll get a good look at them all.

I think its the same in a number of positions Kia. Often having too many players can cause just as much problems as not enough...when none of them are putting their hand up to nail the shirt.

kiakahaaotearoa wrote:6 flyhalves?!! I just don't understand the point of including so many players. Is it designed to put the fear of god into the incumbents or is he trying to encourage even more competition for places?

The group size just seems too unwieldy to do anything constructive. Has SL taken a size does matter quip to heart?

It's for Saxons as well. So three would be associated with the first squad, three would be associated with the 'A' squad. I may well be easier to have 3rd choice as 1st choice for Saxons but this way he gets to see more players. Currently it's probably Farrell, Burns and Ford with the 1st squad and Cipriani, Myler and Slader with the Saxons.

HammerofThunor wrote:

kiakahaaotearoa wrote:6 flyhalves?!! I just don't understand the point of including so many players. Is it designed to put the fear of god into the incumbents or is he trying to encourage even more competition for places?

The group size just seems too unwieldy to do anything constructive. Has SL taken a size does matter quip to heart?

It's for Saxons as well. So three would be associated with the first squad, three would be associated with the 'A' squad.  I may well be easier to have 3rd choice as 1st choice for Saxons but this way he gets to see more players. Currently it's probably Farrell, Burns and Ford with the 1st squad and Cipriani, Myler and Slader with the Saxons.

In that situation though, with a large coaching team all prepped and ready you could do a lot of small unit and individual stuff with groups of 6-12 players. play round robin technical live play, and a lot of the younger players would learn a lot from the older lads who they wouldn't usually get to work with.

I used to love combining the 1st, 2nds and 3rds for the odd session.

So let's get this straight. You already have lots of options and can't pick your 23 man squad. So you bring in even more players and hope to have clarity of mind as a result? Preposterous!

Enough of the experimentation. You can't continually trial new players this close. Make your decisions now, tell the excluded players what yo want from them and tell the players you have included where they need to be. The caretaker period is over. Now is the time for consolidation and building combinations. By all means have a wider training group of 30 or so but this is madness. The players need transparency. Not further clouding.

From the six flyhalfs you can probably say that Myler is there to make up the (unnecessary) numbers and Slade is there to gain experience. The other four are the true contenders, it does seem a little ridiculous though.

I'm pleased to see Ollie Devoto is around the squad, even though he is injured.

I'm a little disappointed not to see Dan Robson among the scrumhalfs ahead of either Dickson or Wigglesworth.

I'm a little surprised to see Jackson Wray in ahead of some of the other options like Dave Ewers, Carl Fearns and Jamie Gibson.

The front five is pretty much as expected.

Cumbrian wrote:http://www.rfu.com/news/2014/august/news-articles/100814_loughborough_training_squad


England training squad

Loose-head props
Alex Corbisiero (Northampton Saints)
Joe Marler (Harlequins)
Matt Mullan (Wasps)
Mako Vunipola (Saracens)

Tight-head props
Kieran Brookes (Newcastle Falcons)
Henry Thomas (Bath Rugby) Sinkler (Quins)
David Wilson (Bath Rugby)

Hookers
Luke Cowan-Dickie (Exeter Chiefs)
Dylan Hartley (Northampton Saints)
Rob Webber (Bath Rugby)
Tom Youngs (Leicester Tigers)

Locks
Dave Attwood (Bath Rugby)
Joe Launchbury (Wasps)
Courtney Lawes (Northampton Saints)
Geoff Parling (Leicester Tigers)
Ed Slater (Leicester Tigers)

Back rows
Calum Clark (Northampton Saints) Ewers (Exeter)
Tom Croft (Leicester Tigers)
Will Fraser (Saracens)
James Haskell (Wasps)
Tom Johnson (Exeter Chiefs) Garvey (Bath)
Matt Kvesic (Gloucester Rugby)
Ben Morgan (Gloucester Rugby)
Chris Robshaw (Harlequins)
Billy Vunipola (Saracens)
Tom Wood (Northampton Saints)
Jackson Wray (Saracens) Fearns (Bath)

Scrum halves
Danny Care (Harlequins)
Lee Dickson (Northampton Saints)
Richard Wigglesworth (Saracens) Dan Robson (Glaws)
Ben Youngs (Leicester Tigers)

Fly halves
Freddie Burns (Leicester Tigers)
Danny Cipriani (Sale Sharks)
Owen Farrell (Saracens)
George Ford (Bath Rugby)
Stephen Myler (Northampton Saints) Taking 1 FH out.
Henry Slade (Exeter Chiefs)

Centres
Anthony Allen (Leicester Tigers)
Brad Barritt (Saracens)
Luther Burrell (Northampton Saints)
Kyle Eastmond (Bath Rugby)
Jonathan Joseph (Bath Rugby)
Henry Trinder (Gloucester Rugby)
Manusamoa Tuilagi (Leicester Tigers)
Billy Twelvetrees (Gloucester Rugby)

Back threes
Chris Ashton (Saracens)
Mike Brown (Harlequins)
Ben Foden (Northampton Saints)
Alex Goode (Saracens)
Jonny May (Gloucester Rugby)
Jack Nowell (Exeter Chiefs)
Chris Pennell (Worcester Warriors)
Marland Yarde (Harlequins)
Christian Wade (Wasps)
Anthony Watson (Bath Rugby)

The following players will not join the training squad this week due to injury:
Dan Cole (Leicester Tigers)
Sam Dickinson (Northampton Saints)
Ollie Devoto (Bath Rugby)

I would make those changes. Theres a few in there like Callum Clark who should be nowhere near the squad...and Tom Johnson who just isnt what i want at 6. Id like to see Ewers really focus on being a 6.

kiakahaaotearoa wrote:So let's get this straight. You already have lots of options and can't pick your 23 man squad. So you bring in even more players and hope to have clarity of mind as a result? Preposterous!

It's not just for the EPS squad, it's for the Saxons too. Both squads are over 30 players.

GeordieFalcon, Dickinson is specifically named as one of the players who would be there but he's injured.

Isnt there also this thing about playing one way for your club and another for internationals? By getting all of these players in one place at one time does it give you more chance to expose them all to what they think is needed at international level?

kiakahaaotearoa wrote:So let's get this straight. You already have lots of options and can't pick your 23 man squad. So you bring in even more players and hope to have clarity of mind as a result? Preposterous!

Enough of the experimentation. You can't continually trial new players this close. Make your decisions now, tell the excluded players what yo want from them and tell the players you have included where they need to be. The caretaker period is over. Now is the time for consolidation and building combinations. By all means have a wider training group of 30 or so but this is madness. The players need transparency. Not further clouding.

I'm sorry I don't understnad your point. As has been said several times, this is for two squads. The Saxons and the full side. Are you saying the Saxons should be disbanded for the next year?

(EDIT: and it's actually a reduced pair of squads anyway as there should be 64 players in combinded squads).

Rugby Fan my point is SL is no longer in charge of the Saxons. By all means communicate to the Saxons players this is why you didn't make the EPS and this is what we'd like you to work on. But to me the EPS and Saxons are separate entities. With closer links than ABs and Maoris but nonetheless I don't see the value of lumping them together.

YOU might see them as seperate but they've always been linked. The England manage/head coach has always selected the squad and dictates how they should play, who should play where, etc. This has ALWAYS happened, but previously the EPS and saxons squads had been defined so the Saxon squad was generally ignored. It's just this time Lancaster has held off defining his EPS so they had to lump them all in together.

Rugby Fan my point is SL is no longer in charge of the Saxons. By all means communicate to the Saxons players this is why you didn't make the EPS and this is what we'd like you to work on. But to me the EPS and Saxons are separate entities. With closer links than ABs and Maoris but nonetheless I don't see the value of lumping them together.

Excuse the repetition. Writing from a phone on this forum can be a nightmare...

Thanks Hammer for the explanation.

Has there ever been a similarly sized training squad before?

What will be interesting to see this season is if young Daly will revert to 13.

Wasps have signed Rob Miller who is a quality FB so you would expect him to start at FB...and hopefully Daly can nail the 13 spot and start to show his potential. ANd improve his tackling / defence.

kiakahaaotearoa wrote:Has there ever been a similarly sized training squad before?

Yes, last year, meeting at the same place.

http://www.rfu.com/news/2013/august/news-articles/010813_eps_release

Lancaster is quoted in last year's press release saying "We very much see this as a 65 man squad and we regularly see players pushing into the squad and the team from the Saxons."

This only looks different because Lancaster has been able to get a bit more order into proceedings. It's an indication of how smooth relations currently are between clubs and country.

The agreement with the PRL actually covers three squads of 32 players: the EPS, the Saxons, and the U20s. There's an extra player now in the EPS because of the expanded subs bench. Originally, the England manager was asked to select his EPS and Saxons on the 1st August, with changes allowed on the 1st January. Last year, the EPS and Saxons were duly named, and all gathered in Loughborough.

Lancaster pointed out the August date gave him no chance to take into account early season form, so the clubs have let him delay his announcement until October. Consequently, the group this year isn't officially split into EPS and Saxons players. Also, some players named now might not make it into the final announcement.

Thanks Rugby Fan for the explanation.   

Glad to see Wray picked. One of the most underrated backrowers in the AP.

No George Kruis is a poor decision IMO.

Only 5 locks yet 11 backrowers and 6 10s?

beshocked wrote:Glad to see Wray picked. One of the most underrated backrowers in the AP.

No George Kruis is a poor decision IMO.

Only 5 locks yet 11 backrowers and 6 10s?

Wray and Kruis have decent noses for the line too.

beshocked wrote:Glad to see Wray picked. One of the most underrated backrowers in the AP.

No George Kruis is a poor decision IMO.

Only 5 locks yet 11 backrowers and 6 10s?

I'm hoping that SL isn't thinking backrowers can slot into the second row. 

Fly-half doubling at inside centre, wing, or tighthead....

That's a good point, you would expect at least 4 of those 5 locks to be in the EPS, if not all 5. Where are the locks that will be in the Saxons, hardly like there is a lack of them, Kruis/Barrow/Matthews/Stooke etc

OMc wrote:

beshocked wrote:His lack of communication was part of the reason we lost to France.

When Nowell left the field injured, England were ahead. It could even be said that were Nowell to have continued, rather than Burrell moving to the wing, France wouldn't have scored that third try.

Equally one could say that even when Nowell was off the pitch he contributed to the loss. You can say if Nowell was on....but he wasn't. We lost.

It's like saying if Nowell had scored a hattrick whilst on the pitch we would have won.

3 tries down the wings from 1 team which won France the game. They exploited the woes on the wing effectively to win. The two starting wingers were Nowell and May. Yes perhaps I am being unfair on the two of them as I have said numerous times before - I hold Lancaster and his coaches more culpable for the loss. Nowell did all he could and yes perhaps it's unfair I keep on focussing on him - it's because his selection is a clear indication of Lancaster's poor judgement. Plus he was thrown in the deep end too soon.

Lancaster doesn't understand wingers hence why he cannot get the best out of them - repeatedly resorting to picking full backs because actual wingers can't perform under his tutelage for whatever reason. Even his beloved full backs on the wing have found it difficult to get into the game.

It's unfortunate that both May and Nowell got injured but a contingency plan should have been put in place by the coaches.

England did have a bit of bad luck but one cannot blame the bounce of the ball or injuries for the loss. The coach must take responsibility for the loss and accept that there other things they could have done.

bluestonevedder wrote:

beshocked wrote:Glad to see Wray picked. One of the most underrated backrowers in the AP.

No George Kruis is a poor decision IMO.

Only 5 locks yet 11 backrowers and 6 10s?

I'm hoping that SL isn't thinking backrowers can slot into the second row. 

Fly-half doubling at inside centre, wing, or tighthead....

None of those backrowers have experience playing in the 2nd row do they?

As for 10s, very strange indeed. None of those players bar Farrell play in other positions and I wouldn't like to see Farrell at 12 or 13 again.

Actually maybe Cipriani at 15?

Wing? Perhaps Lancaster will put Burns there.

Still don t know how any other choice at wing could have prevented the bad bounces tho! Not as if Lancaster is spoilt for world class wings either. Wade is a possibility but there are obvious questions. Yarde maybe then the real youngsters. Id accept moving Brown was a mistake weakening both wing and full back but again at the time and possibly still short of options.

Well I suspect we'll be seeing Nowell at fb for Exeter this season.

Maybe there's an agreement with the clubs for certain players to miss this session like Barrow (saxons) who mist alot or the season with injury or Kruis (Saxons) who is breaking into the sarries first properly with borthwick gone.

It's not an official squad yet it's more a pre-season training get together.

The group named is 55 players strong. A full EPS and Saxons squad is 65 players, so, even allowing for the players named as injured, there are still places empty.

Would like to have seen Daly in there.

Is Luke Wallace injured? If he's fit I'm not sure why Clark is there ahead of him, possibly as a physio...

There is another 4 day get together planned for next month.
I'm sure he will look at other players then.

I think Daly is a hell of a prospect...but he needs to nail down that 13 spot for wasps and sort his defence...well actually his defensive positioning for that role out a little bit.

Offensively he is class.

My list of omissions (similar to other comments) would be in no particular order: -

Wallace, Fearns, Garvey, Ewers, Daly and perhaps Gibson and Robson.

Those inclusions with a question mark would be Clark and Johnston and perhaps Wray (no obvious basis for comment).

In terms of numbers in each position, only having three tight-heads to cover potentially two squads seems a big ask (as two TH's needed in each match day squad of 23).  Similarly five locks is also spreading it a bit thin.

But on the whole nothing exceptionally bad.

beshocked wrote:

bluestonevedder wrote:

beshocked wrote:Glad to see Wray picked. One of the most underrated backrowers in the AP.

No George Kruis is a poor decision IMO.

Only 5 locks yet 11 backrowers and 6 10s?

I'm hoping that SL isn't thinking backrowers can slot into the second row. 

Fly-half doubling at inside centre, wing, or tighthead....

None of those backrowers have experience playing in the 2nd row do they?

As for 10s, very strange indeed. None of those players bar Farrell play in other positions and I wouldn't like to see Farrell at 12 or 13 again.

Actually maybe Cipriani at 15?

Wing? Perhaps Lancaster will put Burns there.

I think Crofty was actually a lock when he first started. I hope to god SL doesn't see him as a potential second rower. 

Clark has played one or two at lock too I think? 

Would you trust Cips at 15 with his tackling? Hmmm...

bluestonevedder wrote:...

I think Crofty was actually a lock when he first started. I hope to god SL doesn't see him as a potential second rower. 

I believe that there was an age group team where the locks were Croft and Banahan.