Doing the inventory: England

First topic message reminder :

Doing the inventory: England

Edit: I will update with backs when I have time. This took longer than expected.

Hey guys,
 
This page is for discussing the England team and set up ahead of the run in to the RWC and please please add your comments whichever team you support. Also please feel free to add your own "inventories" for your own national teams for comparison's sake. It's very interesting to see other teams from their fans' points of view and also those Same fans' opinions on our team!

There is a lot of debate over what England's best side is, what players we have available and what needs to be sorted before the World Cup. As we are 1 year out in terms of competitive domestic and international play, I thought it would be great to go through every position and do a stock check of our current, RWC and future prospects there, highlighting our likely squad and first team as well as our strengths and weaknesses. This is all my own opinion so please feel free to add yours or correct me if I have stated something factually incorrect.


LH- this is indubitably an area of strength. Already ready for England we have Lions Alex Corbisiero (great scrummager, but injury concern, when fit has impressed hugely and looks potentially a world class player) and Mako Vunipola (had some issues recently in the scrum but young, improving and a devastating carrier, a real impact sub to use against weaker scrummaging nations), not to mention new Quins captain and one of the most improved international players last year, Joe Marler (hugely better in the scrum under the new laws, offers a lot in terms of work rate but seems to have lost the ball playing and running that originally won him plaudits at club level). The RWC squad will have all 3 in, which starting is hard to say and probably depends on Corbs' knees.

Behind these 3, we have several players who could step in at this moment in time and a good looking future.

Gloucester's Wood was once highly vaunted but appears to have lost a lot of form. Matt Mullan has played for England and has the work in the loose and solid set piece to be a good 4th choice. Alex Waller looked great last season for Saints and if Corbs isn't fit he will get a chance to shine again- he's also young and will get capped in my opinion. His brother Ethan looks promising (though possibly will move to tight head). Barrington has potential though probably not enough to get capped, and Balmain with his ability to play both sides of te scrum surely has a strong future. Nathan Catt is another I could see doing a job if needed and has a good future. Interestingly my searches reveal that Sale have a Moldovan prop, good to see less known rugby nations have players at this level!

All in all, I think we can say Marler, Corbs and Vunipola are tier one (all int class, one top int class and one possibly world class), with Catt, Mullan and Waller behind and Balmain possibly the future. Here we are strong

Hooker- hooker has been an area of huge worry for years, but we seem to be strong here right now. Established options are Hartley (in form, an exceptional player though with a tendency to pop up in the scrum and recent indiscretions, also adds leadership), Webber (looks in form, partnership with Wilson, has taken his chances well) and Lion Tom Youngs (worries re his size, hooking and throwing! But can get the throwing perfectly when in a groove, great at carrying and the breakdown, adds a dimension to our dynamic pack).

Behind these players, we have Paice, who doesn't impress me, George who needs gametime but has huge promise especially in tight carrying for Sarries (he can learn from literally the best in the premiership) and 3 players for Quins. Joe Gray is technically excellent but small and injury prone. Buchanan is powerful and a carrier but raw. Ward is a turnover and ripping machine with a backrow's linkman skills and a centre's pace but has awful days at the lineout and is also small. Any would be ok for me filling in as 4th for England.

Cowan Dickie, once a prop, has lots of potential but needs another season in the shirt for Exeter. Lindsay of Wasps has fallen off his huge potential and I can only hope he springs back.

Overall, Hartley, Webber and Youngs are a good trio, Ward and Gray are good backup and with LCD and George the future looks bright too, certainly better than a few years ago.

TH- this is a tricky area for every team. Currently Dan Cole is injured and was in poor form, but he has been a top level international TH with experience, good technique and an exceptional man in the breakdown. Dave Wilson has filled in nicely for him. Thomas doesn't not convince me hugely as 3rd choice but his cameos have been ok, and he should improve his scrummaging at Bath though may also lose his place playing regularly in the premiership behind Wilson.

We have mentioned Ethan Waller as one for the future. Jake Cooper Wooley of Wasps, who started as a LH is another. Harden and Knight have struggled in a weak Gloucester pack. This looks improved next seasons but this might stop them from getting gametime. Newcastle offer one for the present, the impressive Kieron Brookes, and the future with the raw but talented Wilson. Quins' PDJ looks a spent force but Sinckler looks certain for a cap with his quick learning and strong, pacey carrying. Collier is another Quins option maybe a little less talented but closer to ready.

Cole and Wilson, in uncertain order, will play. The 3rd choice is more open, Thomas could keep it but I see Brookes or Collier leapfrogging him. In the future, we should be ok with JCW, Sinckler and "little" Wilson.

Locks- lots of debate over our starting duo. For me it is still Lawes (much improved over the last season, and fulfilling his potential at last, with soft hands and athleticism) and Launchbury (essentially an extra flanker as well as a lock), closely followed by Attwood to add a power option and Parling for his experience and lineout skills. I can see the argument to start Launchbury with whichever of the above had his club mate at hooker, but as this will be Hartley that changes nothing.

Saracens' Botha has caps and though shouldn't be near starting would not let England down in a crisis. Same goes for Robson of Quins, and Day of Saints is very underrated. None are particularly exciting though. Tigers have a blessing of riches here, with Slater (also a 6) very promising and IMO next in line, but Kitchener also highly rated for a different sort of lock. Deacon's time is last but he would still be acceptable if needed. George Skivington is IMO very underrated and is a player I'd like to see get a chance though I suspect he won't. Schofield is unlikely to add to his caps. Palmer is too old but could step in if in dire need, and Savage looks a good player with a potential cap for me.


For the future, though Launch is young, Matthews has yet to fulfil his promise but looks on track after the end of last seasons for Quins. Will Carrick Smlth is a monster that I know little else about. Stookes has potential as does George Kruis, but Dom Barrow possibly has the most of all, and Itoje in the longer term looks a certain cap.


I'd say Launch + Lawes, Parling and Attwood followed by Kitchener and Slater, with Kruis and Barrow as the future.

6- an interesting Position with many roles. Tom Wood is an excellent 6 who works with our 7, and a good leader. Behind him, James Haskell finally looks the real deal. Tom Johnson is solid but unexceptional, an option certainly.

Callum Clarke is loved by Lancaster but not by some fans. I think he had a great season last year but is not the player to bring England forward. Matt Garvey is NOT loved by Lancaster but is exactly te option at 6 or lock we could do with. In his absence (we assume), Slater could fill in at 6. Kruis is a decent 6 but a better lock, and Wray is good but not enough to cap. If Croft can come back well from injury and stay fit he adds something no other englAnd forward can (real attacking running and a great lineout) and is a shoe in for the squad, lack of physicality or not. Gibson has also looked very good for Tigers and deserves a shot at some point but also lacks power. Tom Guest is too old now to get his first cap realistically much to my dismay. Gaskell frankly doesn't impress me much at all. Welch and Wilson at Falcons look good players but unlikely to feature. Carl Fearns adds power and isn't shabby at the breakdown and should be considered too.

In terms of the future, Charlie Blair Walker is an exciting player, and S Jones will surely get capped at 6 or 7, otherwise I struggle to see many young but not academy players in this position. Moriarity could break through if his pack gives him the platform.

7- here Robshaw stands alone with Armitage in exile. Armitage's carrying and scavenging would be useful but not enough to set a dangerous precedent. Robshaw is a jack of all trades, master of all trades though sadly I expect him to go underrated his entire career. After him comes Kvesic who has had good spells, and offers a blend of breakdown and tackling but had a poor season at Gloucester. He will hope his new-look pack can help him out because he is talented.

At Saints, Clarke and wood can play 7. Dowson didn't look up to int level at all. Will Fraser has genuine talent and I hope he can stay fit as he is both present and future. Luke Wallace will get gametime at 6 and when Robshaw is away. He's a great ball player and fetcher but easily caught out of position. Scaysborough is a solid 7 but unlikely to get a look in, and the same applies for Betty, Seymour and Lund. Guy Thompson impresses me as a utility back row but not enough, Rowan looks an option for the future.  Andy Saull seems to have fallen off the horizon, and I can't see him fighting back in.


I think Wood, Haskell and Robshaw are certains here. After that it becomes hard. Slater can play 6. I would love Garvey but doubt we'll see him. After that, Fraser and Kvesic and maybe Wallace at 7 (Rowan and Jones future options) and Fearns, Gibson and Croft at 6 (Kruis and Moriarity maybe the future here). I thought we'd be stronger than we are at flanker.

8- in Billy Vunipola and Morgan we have 2 great options at 8, both powerful though with different carrying specialties. Haskell adds extra cover here too.

After these two, we are better here than I thought. Dickinson is solid. Easter is old but could fill in come the RWC in his current state (ie phenomenal). Crane is back on track with Waldrom ( no thanks) gone. Jack Clifford is the future. Fearns can play here and Burgess may be trialled here. Guest is getting on but good enough, ditto Narraway, York has fallen off the radar. And Ewers is raw but talented.


I would say Billy and Morgan helped by Haskell, with Ewers next, maybe Crane and Easter in an emergency. Clifford for the future, plus Billy will be playing for years to come.



So that gives a pack of

Marler, Corbs, Vunipola
Youngs, Hartley, Webber
Cole, Wilson, Brookes
Lawes,Launchbury, Parling, Attwood
Wood, Haskell, Croft
Robshaw, Fraser
Vunipola, Morgan


The backs:

England's backs have long been seen as an issue- with a dearth of flair, and thanks to the likes of Andy Robinson, a graveyard where the careers of promising young tyros chucked in the deep end go to die (I will never forgive the way he ruined Tait and Allen). However, a few key issues aside, I honestly feel we are stronger than most realise here and certainly stronger than any time in the past 10 years, a few fantastic players from that period aside.


9- not long ago, with Care lacking consistency and maturity and Youngs falling out of form, this was a big worry. However, Care seems to have grown into the player he should have been, fantastic for Quins, bringing that form to England and improving his pass, kick and mind to go with his high tempo and playmaking. Similarly, Youngs looked to be refinding his form at the end of last season and looking like the player we thought could be the best 9 in the world. Behind them, Lee Dickson isn't very exciting but he is solid enough for England and had a great season for Saints.

Behind these 3, Wrigglesworth is not a particularly flashy choice but he is an excellent tactical 9 and I would happily see him play in white. His club mate Spencer looks a long term option, with a similarly good kicking game. Joel Hodgson has gone down the pecking order by moving to Saints but with his skillset and 2 good 9s to learn from is another to watch out for. I don't know much about Harrison, but Karl Dickson at Quins is a solid player who could fill in if needed (not on last season's form though) and Burns and Stuart are ones to watch but need to add cleverness to their pace. Chiefs have 3 solid 9s in Lewis, Chudley and Thomas though I don't know enough about them to say if they could get caps. I don't hugely rate Young but Cook at Bath looks promising and Robson at Glaws too though he'll need to get ahead of Laidlaw, who I think is a silly buy for the club. Simpson offers a lot but also has too many flaws (like his pass...) for me to pick him for England.

Here we can easily say care, Youngs and Dickson, IMO followed by Wriggles and with Cook, Robson and Spencer my picks for the future.


10- more contentious here. Farrell, with his kicking and defence, is clearly the favourite here and has improved his attack but is still never going to be a Spencer or Larkham, and there are rumours he might be tried at 12 in the AIs. Behind him, it's a close 3 way race with Flood taking himself out of the picture. Burns had an awful season, but promises so much in terms of attack and using his backs, and if he can get ahead of Williams he will have a better platform at Tigers. Cipriani has lost the unplayable verve he once had but has also improved his temperament, defence and control and frankly looks the most balanced 10 we have in my eyes, whether he is trusted by others is another question. Ford has shown great tactical kicking and passing but poor goal kicking and is rather small for international rugby. Picking our 10s is key and is a real challenge.

Behind these players, Myler is solid. Hodgson has retired but Goode looked good in his cameos at 10 for Sarries and some have questioned the decision to ever move him from 10 to 15. Billy Burns is too young now but looks even better than his brother and Slade also looks a top quality player. Andy Goode is too old, and Geraghty seems to have fallen off the track that saw him shine so brightly in that one 6N campaign. Clegg too seems to have lost his touch and gone from flakey but a good attacker at Quins to a kicker with no flair at Falcons. I've heard good things about young Joe Ford. Barkley is past it IMO.

Farrell plus 2 of Cips, Ford and Burns, probably Ford and Burns though I think that's not the best call. For the future, mini Burns and Slade look most promising.


12- our biggest problem. Twelvetrees has looked great in spells but subpar in others. Eastmond with the opportunity to attack also looks class but was found massively defensively lacking in t3 in NZ. Burrell can play 12 but with Manu at 13? Can Manu play 12? Farrell? No easy decision here. Barritt has been a stalwart when given the chance but with Farrell at 10 and Manu at 13, that attack just seems far too blunt.


After the current squad members, there are other options. I hugely rate Allen and think he really does deserve another chance (damn you Robinson!). He has the passing (though his role for Tigers doesn't use it that often), the running lines and the defensive leadership to be what we need. However, it looks too late for Allen as he would have been picked before now were it to happen. Chris Bell is another solid clubman who I doubt raises enough pulses to get a chance. Burgess could come in at 12 but until he plays a minute of Union there is no way I can see him playing for England. Devoto looks a future star though. I don't know much about Guy Armitage at all, I'm sure Pete can enlighten me. Sam Hill I have seen and he impresses me a lot. Casson has lost a lot of form for Quins and whilst a fit JTH is vital for us and should have the power and offload to do well for England, his few caps didn't exactly inspire. And he's never ever fit. May at Welsh is ok but not an int. The last centre who springs to mind is Stephenson, for the future at least.


12 is hard but let's stick with 36 and Eastmond, with Burrell predominantly a 13 but an option. I'd love to see Allen there but we won't. For the future, Stephenson and Hill for me but I wouldn't be surprised or upset to see Devoto there.

13- Manu Tuilagi is, for his flaws (that strangely seem to materialise for England- he passes well at Tigers), a lethal player who must be in the squad. He made Conrad Smith look like a schoolboy. Burrell was poor in NZ but had a storming 6N and deserves to be there too.

After this, it becomes harder. Bath's Devoto could play 13, and hopefully Banahan is a no. Joseph looked promising but has dropped off. Tompkins is another for the future, and Tomkins didn't look international class when given the chance and I think is back in league. Can't see Waldouck making it either. Quins have some talented young centres in Sloan (probably won't make it) and Marchant (could do in the future, but very young) and Hopper impresses some. He's too flakey for me and Lowe, if he reaches his previous form from before this horrible injury, is a real possibility, underrated in attack and defence. Daly has IMO all the weapons to play 13 and hopefully will start there and not at 15 for Wasps. Trinder is another good player but needs to stay fit. The others at Falcons etc don't look like options to me.

So manu and Burrell then. I'd have Lowe and Daly next, then Daly, Tompkins and Devoto as the future.

Wing- we have had issues here but I actually think the options are good and varied. We are just low on time to pick them properly. Yarde, now playing with Brown at Quins, has nailed one shirt down with his attack. The other main contenders are Ashton, who had a good club season but may have run out of lives, May, who can't seem to run straight and fulfill his promise, Nowell, who improved through the 6N but doesn't score many tries (adds a lot else though, similar to Watson, another option) and Wade who is untested thanks to injury but looks magic to me and must get a run out frankly. Then FBs like Foden are also in the mix.

Saints also have Elliott, who is understated and does his basics very well. I think he could do well alla Cueto, who himself is too old now days. Thompstone doesn't quite look up to this level and Benjamin needs to prove he is still the player he looked before injury. Strettle does it all at club level but has struggled for England. Williams will never get capped after the B word, Monye has lost his pace but Charlie Walker looks like he might be a future England winger with his pace and ability to play 13 and 15. Arnott and Jess aren't quite there, neither is Brady. Cato hasn't fulfilled his potential but Kiribirige looks the real deal for Falcons in a few years. Ojo has missed the boat, and Lewington looks good but not great (don't know how James Short has been doing at Irish, looked good at Sarries). Sharples has fallen from favour but is still a great attacker if we need more in attack, JSD is too old now. Woodburn is quick but I don't know much about him. Can't see Banahan getting another chance, and Rocky is on the list for the Saxons but I think unlikely to make the full step up. Earle looks lethal as a future winger. Stegmann and Sam Smith are too flawed in defence without the pure danger to counter this. Finally Varndell is a long shot but still a menace to defences at AP level.


I'd go with Yarde and Wade, with Watson, Nowell and May as back ups for now.

All are young but other youngsters to step up are Earle, Walker and Kiribirige.


15- Mike Brown has the shirt if he can approach his AI and 6N form of last year when he was possibly the best in the World. Behind him Foden is proven int class but in my eyes has never neared his form of 3-4 years ago. Goode needs pace outside him but adds a dimension to how England can play. And May, daly, Nowell, Watson can all play FB too. It is a global area of strength and every club has an option here.

With Abendanon leaving and Watson a winger, Bath can offer the solid Luke Arscott. Gloucester have lost (once England vaunted) Olly Morgan but Cook looks promising at 15. Wasps now have the decent option of Miller if Daly (please!!!) stays at 13. Irish have Homer, who i see mostly as a kicker. Catterick and Tait probably not good enough at Falcons. Tom Arscott very underrated and wouldn't be too out of place. Chiefs will probably start Nowell at 15. Sarries have Goode but Ransom is ok too, and Welsh have some players I don't really know much about. Pennell, loyally staying at Wuss despite being in the NZ tour squad, is utterly class and I hope he gets to come back up. After MB for Quins is Chisholm who is dangerously pacy (but has been injured a fair bit) and OLH who wants to play 15s like it's 7s. Matt Tait is looking like the player e could have been if not for Robinson and injuries again but is still made of the same glass as Warburton and Pocock.

FBs have to be Brown, Foden, Goode, with the wingers as back ups and maybe Pennell if he goes on loan. For the future, Cook, maybe Earle and Watson look grand.


So all in all the backs look like:

Care, Youngs
Farrell, Burns,
Twelvetrees, (Eastmond)
Manu, Burrell,
Wade, Yarde, Watson (Nowell, May)
Brown, Goode, Foden

I'll comment on the overall situation, plan etc tomorrow.

There has been a lot of talk about how the current England game plan doesn't suit the wingers. Seems odd to have a game plan, or at least a variation on it, that excludes two people that are likely to be your best attacking threats. George North and Alex Cuthbert are recognised as ball carriers as well as try scorers.

What is it in the game plan that is causing issues for the wingers? Don't get me wrong, Savea is an incredible finisher but he is provided with plenty of opportunities. If England were trying to get close to New Zealand and play the game at their tempo etc should we not be seeing more try scoring opportunities for our wingers?

Rugby Fan wrote:Lancaster may not get much production from his wings, but that's hardly unique in English rugby. Until Ashton came on the scene, the most famous passage of play involving a winger in the post-Woodward era was probably Cueto's disallowed try in the 2007 World Cup final.

I believe Banahan scored a few

dgttaylor wrote:Looked up Savea's stats and says he is 6'4. My flat mate works at AIG (All Black's sponsor) and they did an office walk around when in London for the AI's last year. My flat mate is 5'11 and had his photo with him and said Savea wasn't any taller. In the photo they look the same height. He did say he was very wide and had serious depth to his chest but surely he cannot have misjudged his height that much!

Rokoduguni is only 6' but listed as 16 st. That's a decent start.

Savea clearly travels so fast he experiences relativistic length contraction along his direction of travel. I can't do the maths, but he's probably doing about 10% of the speed of light to shrink from 6'4" to 5'11"

dgttaylor wrote:There has been a lot of talk about how the current England game plan doesn't suit the wingers. Seems odd to have a game plan, or at least a variation on it, that excludes two people that are likely to be your best attacking threats. George North and Alex Cuthbert are recognised as ball carriers as well as try scorers.

What is it in the game plan that is causing issues for the wingers? Don't get me wrong, Savea is an incredible finisher but he is provided with plenty of opportunities. If England were trying to get close to New Zealand and play the game at their tempo etc should we not be seeing more try scoring opportunities for our wingers?

Completely agree.

I think it's Lancaster's emphasis on the outside centres as strike forces. Under Lancaster the most potent try scorers have been 13s - Burrell in the 6 nations and Manu.

The ball in my opinion generally doesn't get beyond the 13.

Ideally you want every back to be a try scoring threat from 9-15 probably with the exception of 10. Wingers surely should be the primary try scorers?

The England side of 2001-3 had try scoring threats throughout perhaps with the exception of 10. Lewsey,Robinson and Cohen were the primary back three. Greenwood and Tindall gave nice balance in the centres.

What is interesting about the 2001-03 team is that other than when Catt played 12, we generally didn't have that second fly half type player in the centres, and it certainly never stopped that back 3 getting hold of the ball.

Can't imagine Tindall's passing to be a whole lot better than Manu's either!

Shows what a brilliant 10-12 pair Wilko and Greenwood actually made

Woodward never really played two lumps in the centre. Our best attacking rugby came when Catt played alongside Greenwood in the centre during the 2001 Six Nations.

Catt then lost out to the greater muscularity and defensive awareness of Tindall, but Woodward used him again during the World Cup when it looked like Wilkinson needed some help outside. Tindall got the nod for the final because Woodward didn't fancy Mortlock and Tuqiiri coming down the middle through Catt.

It's not surprising, then, that our wingers saw more action with Greenwood and Catt/Tindall.

As I mentioned before, Ashton thrived behind Tindall and Hape, so he didn't need a flyhalf type at 12 or a great passer a 13. He did need lively half-backs making breaks or threading passes (Youngs & Flood at their best) and some players alongside him in the back three who also posed a threat to keep the defence interested (Foden & Armitage at their best).

I'd settle for a seemingly pedestrian pairing  like Barritt and Tuilagi if we could also have in-form half backs and a lively back three.

I'd settle for a seemingly pedestrian pairing like Barritt and Tuilagi if we could also have in-form half backs and a lively back three.

Thats the pair that have beaten the AB's...and too be honest ive been changing my mind a little on that combo recently ad wondering if thats the one we should go with.

Gives protection to a more creative FH with Barritt defensive general. Barritt will run thrugh a brick wall.

It just comes back to wishing Barritt had that little bit more creativity.

It goes back to Lancaster not having access to top level wingers at the moment. There's a few with potential but none of someone like Savea's class. Wade, Yarde, Nowell, Watson and a few of the younger ones all have a chance. Even someone like May given some time and confidence could flourish.

It goes back to Lancaster not having access to top level wingers at the moment.

Or that they are not getting enough quality ball from the rest of the backline...

Ford, Eastmond and Joseph playing well together at Bath.

Ford, however, slipped up with his kicking today. Alex Goode and Twelvetrees are other kicking options but neither are guaranteed a place on the bench, let alone the starting XV.

If Ford is selected, and then has a bad day with the boot, will there no option but to yank him for whoever is our replacement fly half? Can Danny Care do a Matt Dawson and have a crack?

Sam Burgess has hurt his cheekbone in the Grand Final. He's playing on but there's speculation he has fractured it.

When Gavin Henson fractured his cheekbone in 2012, he was out for six weeks. Manu Tuilagi broke his and had the same lay-off. It appears to depend on whether you need surgery. Stephen Ferris needed an operation for his fracture and was told he'd be out for 6-8 weeks.

Two months out for Burgess would disrupt any chance he had of making an impact in time to impress Lancaster.

Broken cheekbone or not, he stayed on to help his team win the final.

As a farewell gesture, he took the final conversion (the game was effectively over). He missed it but it was from the touchline, and it didn't miss by much.

Rugby Fan wrote:Ford, Eastmond and Joseph playing well together at Bath.

Ford, however, slipped up with his kicking today. Alex Goode and Twelvetrees are other kicking options but neither are guaranteed a place on the bench, let alone the starting XV.

If Ford is selected, and then has a bad day with the boot, will there no option but to yank him for whoever is our replacement fly half? Can Danny Care do a Matt Dawson and have a crack?

One possible scrum half should perhaps be working on his goal kicking:

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/sport/rugbyunion/international/southafrica/6517275/Leicester-Tigers-22-South-Africa-17-match-report.html

Care did take a couple of place kicks in a game back in 2011 or 2012 I think. They cleared the bar but were ugly things. Same with Mike Brown (who I'd have thought would make a good place kicker - surprised he doesn't do it). I can't see either of them being realistic international options - though Care is good enough at drop goals that I am surprised he doesn't do it more often.

In the England squad you are likely to have both 36 and Goode, though, neither of whom is a shabby kicker. There's also the option of Ford / Farrell / Burrell (or Manu if fit) as the 10/12/13 combination. That gives you kicking options and a two sided attack.

Poorfour wrote:In the England squad you are likely to have both 36 and Goode, though, neither of whom is a shabby kicker.

If Twelvetrees isn't playing well enough to start, I'm not sure I want him on the bench. Goode is a solid player but, if Brown is starting at full back, then an injury to one of our wingers would mean one of them covering that position. That's not ideal.

Rugby Fan wrote:

Poorfour wrote:In the England squad you are likely to have both 36 and Goode, though, neither of whom is a shabby kicker.

If Twelvetrees isn't playing well enough to start, I'm not sure I want him on the bench. Goode is a solid player but, if Brown is starting at full back, then an injury to one of our wingers would mean one of them covering that position. That's not ideal.

Thats being 'very' diplomatic. If we are just playing kick chase in the rain I might be happy to see Goode play, but not otherwise, please.

I think Farrell is a very decent FH and OK as an emergency 12, but again, only in an absolute emergency. Talking of which I do wonder if hes going to be fit for the AI. If he is almost fit I really really really hope they still rest him until he is properly fixed.

We need to get some creativity and intelligence in the midfield...10 & 12...and use manu properly...not just smashing all the time carrying 10 men on his back bursting through to score.

Get the flat miss passes going...putting him through gaps.

Just because hes big doesnt mean he should be crash ball ALL the time. Thats someting Ben Morgan does so much better than Billy Vunipola...he hits the gaps.

Get Ford and Eastmond in there...Yarde on the Wing and watch the tries start to come.

And with that...you might see Ashton start coming looking for the ball...running his trademark lines.

You think Ashton will be starting the AIs?

Wade needs to find some form, which to date he's struggled to do following his return from injury, care crash and amidst selectorial rotation.

He'll come good, just need a bit of luck!

This saturday against Bath is a great opportunity as I imagine Wasps will play their A side.

No 7&1/2 wrote:You think Ashton will be starting the AIs?

Im really not sure 7.5 but I just don't think any winger has looked particularly great under Lancaster..so to totally write off Ashton is not really fair.

I would be interested to see how he went with a bit more creativity in the midfield. Then we should be able to finally decide on him.

As for Wade..he needs to find some form and his defence out. He's dropped a couple of clangers this season.

Yarde finding his try scoring touch was nice...the question is who is on the other wing.

If Nowell is playing well...he may be an outside bet as he offers that solidity that Lancaster seems to desire.

kingelderfield wrote:Wade needs to find some form, which to date he's struggled to do following his return from injury, care crash and amidst selectorial rotation.

He'll come good, just need a bit of luck!

This saturday against Bath is a great opportunity as I imagine Wasps will play their A side.

Not sure about that. Wade's attacking form has seemed pretty good, but his defence is as shaky as ever. I think it's a longer term fix than waiting for some form.

For me it's Wade. Throw him in against NZ and keep him there for the whole of the AIs and beyond. He's the best attacker and if people are really wanting some spice on the wings he's the guy. I'd like to see Ford and Twelvetrees at 10 and 12 with Eastmond at 23.

No 7&1/2 wrote:For me it's Wade. Throw him in against NZ and keep him there for the whole of the AIs and beyond. He's the best attacker and if people are really wanting some spice on the wings he's the guy. I'd like to see Ford and Twelvetrees at 10 and 12 with Eastmond at 23.

I apologise unreservedly, and all this time I marked you down as a conservative reactionary - my bad.

I really think the name of the game, especially in the backline, is getting the balance between attacking ability/skills and defensive solidity. Could Eastmond and Joseph survive at international level? I think against the very top sides probably not, however providing defensive strenght in one area could allow attacking skills and ability in another. So for example playing 36 and Tuilagi or even Burrell and Tuilagi or 36 and Burrell should allow for either of Cipriani or Ford with wings to match, specifically Wade and maybe Yarde.

You have to have balance. Balance will allow you other options for example Farrell with Eastmond and Tuilagi.

However the old curmudgeon of form and FITNESS may yet ruin all our hopes and plans.

No I like to think you pick a set of players to play to your devised game plan and give them time to perform. I think dropping people altogether even after a really bad game isn't the way to go. Provide the environment for people to flourish over the medium to long term and accept players will make mistakes. Lancaster has made alot of changes over his tenure but I think he's right to do it over time. Wholesale changes help no one, neither does reactionary changes.

If Farrell and Tuilagi aren't properly fit for the AIs, I'd honestly like to see England just go for it and pick the Bath midfield: Ford Eastmond Joseph. They're in great form, are used to playing together, and will/should create plenty. OK defensively it's a (huge) risk, but what's to be lost by trying it out? Have Burrell on the bench for solidity if necessary.

My first choice pick would probably still be Farrell Eastmond Tuilagi, I think that has a lot of potential, but we need Farrell to get back to his best first.

Mad for Chelsea wrote:If Farrell and Tuilagi aren't properly fit for the AIs, I'd honestly like to see England just go for it and pick the Bath midfield: Ford Eastmond Joseph. They're in great form, are used to playing together, and will/should create plenty. OK defensively it's a (huge) risk, but what's to be lost by trying it out? Have Burrell on the bench for solidity if necessary.

I like this. At the end of the day rugby is an entertainment business, and that backline, even if we lose, should provide some entertainment.  

The key thing with those backs though is the pack, Bath's pack put in some massive shifts and it has some real big units in it. England's needs to work the same, putting in massive hits, smashing every ruck, playing right on and over the edge at every opportunity and generaly making the oppositions life hell while making the ride comfy for the backs.

We've done this before a few times, just need to hit the ground running and do it for 3 games on the bounce.

A pack of Marler, Webber (is he fit?), Wilson, Lawes, Attwood, Haskell, Robshaw, Morgan; should be able to do that as long as they have the stamina (bar Morgan obv!) And you know what? I'd be genuinely excited to see that pack run out as well, far more then if we went for the same old and hoped for the best.

yappysnap wrote:
I like this. At the end of the day rugby is an entertainment business, and that backline, even if we lose, should provide some entertainment.  

Sorry yappy but whenever I see comments like that I want to pick my computer up and smash it over the head of the perpetrator.

Rugby is sport and at the end of the day the result is most important. Would you be happy with Quins playing attractive rugby and being relegated? Or england looking good but not getting out of WC group. Lots of tries and "entertainment" at Kassam this season - no crowds though.

Ok, head on the block time. I have a real feeling of dread approaching our autumn games. Basically I'm predicting losses to New Zealand and South Africa with unconvincing wins against Samoa and Australia.

I am just not seeing where the improvement is going to come from and so we'll be fed more dissappointment and half baked 'Jam tomorrow'.

Our injury situation is very concerning and if David Wilson falls over I think it could be curtains.

Ofcourse injuries provide opportunities and I'd just love to see Cipriani at Twickenham starting against the All Blacks, but with the european games yet to come it is all a bit 'last man standing'.

I'd expect a narrow loss to NZ, would be very disappointed not to pick up wins or at the vest least have strong performances vs SA and Aus. Samoa will be a 2nd string I'd expect. We have the players to do it. We've been consistent under Lancaster and I see no reason why we'll be blown away.

So, Myler went to NZ behind Farrell, Burns and Cipriani. Back home, Ford is widely thought to be ahead in the pecking order.

Would it be fair to suggest that Myler should now be at least ahead of Burns? That is, he's third in line, given Farrell is out. Or is Slade in the mix?

If Slade gets a shot it will be at 12, we need a player there more urgently as Ford, Cips etc are all foils for Farrell who has experience at 10. 12 is an area where nobody has totally nailed it, even if you are in the Pro 36 camp

It strikes me that we really are paying the price for losing the poste 2003 generation. Who in the squad can you place within the senior inner circle, who has top level winning experience?

Across the board it is still an inexperienced squad and so we will have to watch as they inevitably make and hopefully learn form their mistakes.

And so wit regards to 36 who is there guiding him and other like him?

I still dispair when he and Marler and others are over burdened with captaincy responsibilities when they should be completely focused on their own performance and development.