Doing the inventory: England

First topic message reminder :

Doing the inventory: England

Edit: I will update with backs when I have time. This took longer than expected.

Hey guys,
 
This page is for discussing the England team and set up ahead of the run in to the RWC and please please add your comments whichever team you support. Also please feel free to add your own "inventories" for your own national teams for comparison's sake. It's very interesting to see other teams from their fans' points of view and also those Same fans' opinions on our team!

There is a lot of debate over what England's best side is, what players we have available and what needs to be sorted before the World Cup. As we are 1 year out in terms of competitive domestic and international play, I thought it would be great to go through every position and do a stock check of our current, RWC and future prospects there, highlighting our likely squad and first team as well as our strengths and weaknesses. This is all my own opinion so please feel free to add yours or correct me if I have stated something factually incorrect.


LH- this is indubitably an area of strength. Already ready for England we have Lions Alex Corbisiero (great scrummager, but injury concern, when fit has impressed hugely and looks potentially a world class player) and Mako Vunipola (had some issues recently in the scrum but young, improving and a devastating carrier, a real impact sub to use against weaker scrummaging nations), not to mention new Quins captain and one of the most improved international players last year, Joe Marler (hugely better in the scrum under the new laws, offers a lot in terms of work rate but seems to have lost the ball playing and running that originally won him plaudits at club level). The RWC squad will have all 3 in, which starting is hard to say and probably depends on Corbs' knees.

Behind these 3, we have several players who could step in at this moment in time and a good looking future.

Gloucester's Wood was once highly vaunted but appears to have lost a lot of form. Matt Mullan has played for England and has the work in the loose and solid set piece to be a good 4th choice. Alex Waller looked great last season for Saints and if Corbs isn't fit he will get a chance to shine again- he's also young and will get capped in my opinion. His brother Ethan looks promising (though possibly will move to tight head). Barrington has potential though probably not enough to get capped, and Balmain with his ability to play both sides of te scrum surely has a strong future. Nathan Catt is another I could see doing a job if needed and has a good future. Interestingly my searches reveal that Sale have a Moldovan prop, good to see less known rugby nations have players at this level!

All in all, I think we can say Marler, Corbs and Vunipola are tier one (all int class, one top int class and one possibly world class), with Catt, Mullan and Waller behind and Balmain possibly the future. Here we are strong

Hooker- hooker has been an area of huge worry for years, but we seem to be strong here right now. Established options are Hartley (in form, an exceptional player though with a tendency to pop up in the scrum and recent indiscretions, also adds leadership), Webber (looks in form, partnership with Wilson, has taken his chances well) and Lion Tom Youngs (worries re his size, hooking and throwing! But can get the throwing perfectly when in a groove, great at carrying and the breakdown, adds a dimension to our dynamic pack).

Behind these players, we have Paice, who doesn't impress me, George who needs gametime but has huge promise especially in tight carrying for Sarries (he can learn from literally the best in the premiership) and 3 players for Quins. Joe Gray is technically excellent but small and injury prone. Buchanan is powerful and a carrier but raw. Ward is a turnover and ripping machine with a backrow's linkman skills and a centre's pace but has awful days at the lineout and is also small. Any would be ok for me filling in as 4th for England.

Cowan Dickie, once a prop, has lots of potential but needs another season in the shirt for Exeter. Lindsay of Wasps has fallen off his huge potential and I can only hope he springs back.

Overall, Hartley, Webber and Youngs are a good trio, Ward and Gray are good backup and with LCD and George the future looks bright too, certainly better than a few years ago.

TH- this is a tricky area for every team. Currently Dan Cole is injured and was in poor form, but he has been a top level international TH with experience, good technique and an exceptional man in the breakdown. Dave Wilson has filled in nicely for him. Thomas doesn't not convince me hugely as 3rd choice but his cameos have been ok, and he should improve his scrummaging at Bath though may also lose his place playing regularly in the premiership behind Wilson.

We have mentioned Ethan Waller as one for the future. Jake Cooper Wooley of Wasps, who started as a LH is another. Harden and Knight have struggled in a weak Gloucester pack. This looks improved next seasons but this might stop them from getting gametime. Newcastle offer one for the present, the impressive Kieron Brookes, and the future with the raw but talented Wilson. Quins' PDJ looks a spent force but Sinckler looks certain for a cap with his quick learning and strong, pacey carrying. Collier is another Quins option maybe a little less talented but closer to ready.

Cole and Wilson, in uncertain order, will play. The 3rd choice is more open, Thomas could keep it but I see Brookes or Collier leapfrogging him. In the future, we should be ok with JCW, Sinckler and "little" Wilson.

Locks- lots of debate over our starting duo. For me it is still Lawes (much improved over the last season, and fulfilling his potential at last, with soft hands and athleticism) and Launchbury (essentially an extra flanker as well as a lock), closely followed by Attwood to add a power option and Parling for his experience and lineout skills. I can see the argument to start Launchbury with whichever of the above had his club mate at hooker, but as this will be Hartley that changes nothing.

Saracens' Botha has caps and though shouldn't be near starting would not let England down in a crisis. Same goes for Robson of Quins, and Day of Saints is very underrated. None are particularly exciting though. Tigers have a blessing of riches here, with Slater (also a 6) very promising and IMO next in line, but Kitchener also highly rated for a different sort of lock. Deacon's time is last but he would still be acceptable if needed. George Skivington is IMO very underrated and is a player I'd like to see get a chance though I suspect he won't. Schofield is unlikely to add to his caps. Palmer is too old but could step in if in dire need, and Savage looks a good player with a potential cap for me.


For the future, though Launch is young, Matthews has yet to fulfil his promise but looks on track after the end of last seasons for Quins. Will Carrick Smlth is a monster that I know little else about. Stookes has potential as does George Kruis, but Dom Barrow possibly has the most of all, and Itoje in the longer term looks a certain cap.


I'd say Launch + Lawes, Parling and Attwood followed by Kitchener and Slater, with Kruis and Barrow as the future.

6- an interesting Position with many roles. Tom Wood is an excellent 6 who works with our 7, and a good leader. Behind him, James Haskell finally looks the real deal. Tom Johnson is solid but unexceptional, an option certainly.

Callum Clarke is loved by Lancaster but not by some fans. I think he had a great season last year but is not the player to bring England forward. Matt Garvey is NOT loved by Lancaster but is exactly te option at 6 or lock we could do with. In his absence (we assume), Slater could fill in at 6. Kruis is a decent 6 but a better lock, and Wray is good but not enough to cap. If Croft can come back well from injury and stay fit he adds something no other englAnd forward can (real attacking running and a great lineout) and is a shoe in for the squad, lack of physicality or not. Gibson has also looked very good for Tigers and deserves a shot at some point but also lacks power. Tom Guest is too old now to get his first cap realistically much to my dismay. Gaskell frankly doesn't impress me much at all. Welch and Wilson at Falcons look good players but unlikely to feature. Carl Fearns adds power and isn't shabby at the breakdown and should be considered too.

In terms of the future, Charlie Blair Walker is an exciting player, and S Jones will surely get capped at 6 or 7, otherwise I struggle to see many young but not academy players in this position. Moriarity could break through if his pack gives him the platform.

7- here Robshaw stands alone with Armitage in exile. Armitage's carrying and scavenging would be useful but not enough to set a dangerous precedent. Robshaw is a jack of all trades, master of all trades though sadly I expect him to go underrated his entire career. After him comes Kvesic who has had good spells, and offers a blend of breakdown and tackling but had a poor season at Gloucester. He will hope his new-look pack can help him out because he is talented.

At Saints, Clarke and wood can play 7. Dowson didn't look up to int level at all. Will Fraser has genuine talent and I hope he can stay fit as he is both present and future. Luke Wallace will get gametime at 6 and when Robshaw is away. He's a great ball player and fetcher but easily caught out of position. Scaysborough is a solid 7 but unlikely to get a look in, and the same applies for Betty, Seymour and Lund. Guy Thompson impresses me as a utility back row but not enough, Rowan looks an option for the future.  Andy Saull seems to have fallen off the horizon, and I can't see him fighting back in.


I think Wood, Haskell and Robshaw are certains here. After that it becomes hard. Slater can play 6. I would love Garvey but doubt we'll see him. After that, Fraser and Kvesic and maybe Wallace at 7 (Rowan and Jones future options) and Fearns, Gibson and Croft at 6 (Kruis and Moriarity maybe the future here). I thought we'd be stronger than we are at flanker.

8- in Billy Vunipola and Morgan we have 2 great options at 8, both powerful though with different carrying specialties. Haskell adds extra cover here too.

After these two, we are better here than I thought. Dickinson is solid. Easter is old but could fill in come the RWC in his current state (ie phenomenal). Crane is back on track with Waldrom ( no thanks) gone. Jack Clifford is the future. Fearns can play here and Burgess may be trialled here. Guest is getting on but good enough, ditto Narraway, York has fallen off the radar. And Ewers is raw but talented.


I would say Billy and Morgan helped by Haskell, with Ewers next, maybe Crane and Easter in an emergency. Clifford for the future, plus Billy will be playing for years to come.



So that gives a pack of

Marler, Corbs, Vunipola
Youngs, Hartley, Webber
Cole, Wilson, Brookes
Lawes,Launchbury, Parling, Attwood
Wood, Haskell, Croft
Robshaw, Fraser
Vunipola, Morgan


The backs:

England's backs have long been seen as an issue- with a dearth of flair, and thanks to the likes of Andy Robinson, a graveyard where the careers of promising young tyros chucked in the deep end go to die (I will never forgive the way he ruined Tait and Allen). However, a few key issues aside, I honestly feel we are stronger than most realise here and certainly stronger than any time in the past 10 years, a few fantastic players from that period aside.


9- not long ago, with Care lacking consistency and maturity and Youngs falling out of form, this was a big worry. However, Care seems to have grown into the player he should have been, fantastic for Quins, bringing that form to England and improving his pass, kick and mind to go with his high tempo and playmaking. Similarly, Youngs looked to be refinding his form at the end of last season and looking like the player we thought could be the best 9 in the world. Behind them, Lee Dickson isn't very exciting but he is solid enough for England and had a great season for Saints.

Behind these 3, Wrigglesworth is not a particularly flashy choice but he is an excellent tactical 9 and I would happily see him play in white. His club mate Spencer looks a long term option, with a similarly good kicking game. Joel Hodgson has gone down the pecking order by moving to Saints but with his skillset and 2 good 9s to learn from is another to watch out for. I don't know much about Harrison, but Karl Dickson at Quins is a solid player who could fill in if needed (not on last season's form though) and Burns and Stuart are ones to watch but need to add cleverness to their pace. Chiefs have 3 solid 9s in Lewis, Chudley and Thomas though I don't know enough about them to say if they could get caps. I don't hugely rate Young but Cook at Bath looks promising and Robson at Glaws too though he'll need to get ahead of Laidlaw, who I think is a silly buy for the club. Simpson offers a lot but also has too many flaws (like his pass...) for me to pick him for England.

Here we can easily say care, Youngs and Dickson, IMO followed by Wriggles and with Cook, Robson and Spencer my picks for the future.


10- more contentious here. Farrell, with his kicking and defence, is clearly the favourite here and has improved his attack but is still never going to be a Spencer or Larkham, and there are rumours he might be tried at 12 in the AIs. Behind him, it's a close 3 way race with Flood taking himself out of the picture. Burns had an awful season, but promises so much in terms of attack and using his backs, and if he can get ahead of Williams he will have a better platform at Tigers. Cipriani has lost the unplayable verve he once had but has also improved his temperament, defence and control and frankly looks the most balanced 10 we have in my eyes, whether he is trusted by others is another question. Ford has shown great tactical kicking and passing but poor goal kicking and is rather small for international rugby. Picking our 10s is key and is a real challenge.

Behind these players, Myler is solid. Hodgson has retired but Goode looked good in his cameos at 10 for Sarries and some have questioned the decision to ever move him from 10 to 15. Billy Burns is too young now but looks even better than his brother and Slade also looks a top quality player. Andy Goode is too old, and Geraghty seems to have fallen off the track that saw him shine so brightly in that one 6N campaign. Clegg too seems to have lost his touch and gone from flakey but a good attacker at Quins to a kicker with no flair at Falcons. I've heard good things about young Joe Ford. Barkley is past it IMO.

Farrell plus 2 of Cips, Ford and Burns, probably Ford and Burns though I think that's not the best call. For the future, mini Burns and Slade look most promising.


12- our biggest problem. Twelvetrees has looked great in spells but subpar in others. Eastmond with the opportunity to attack also looks class but was found massively defensively lacking in t3 in NZ. Burrell can play 12 but with Manu at 13? Can Manu play 12? Farrell? No easy decision here. Barritt has been a stalwart when given the chance but with Farrell at 10 and Manu at 13, that attack just seems far too blunt.


After the current squad members, there are other options. I hugely rate Allen and think he really does deserve another chance (damn you Robinson!). He has the passing (though his role for Tigers doesn't use it that often), the running lines and the defensive leadership to be what we need. However, it looks too late for Allen as he would have been picked before now were it to happen. Chris Bell is another solid clubman who I doubt raises enough pulses to get a chance. Burgess could come in at 12 but until he plays a minute of Union there is no way I can see him playing for England. Devoto looks a future star though. I don't know much about Guy Armitage at all, I'm sure Pete can enlighten me. Sam Hill I have seen and he impresses me a lot. Casson has lost a lot of form for Quins and whilst a fit JTH is vital for us and should have the power and offload to do well for England, his few caps didn't exactly inspire. And he's never ever fit. May at Welsh is ok but not an int. The last centre who springs to mind is Stephenson, for the future at least.


12 is hard but let's stick with 36 and Eastmond, with Burrell predominantly a 13 but an option. I'd love to see Allen there but we won't. For the future, Stephenson and Hill for me but I wouldn't be surprised or upset to see Devoto there.

13- Manu Tuilagi is, for his flaws (that strangely seem to materialise for England- he passes well at Tigers), a lethal player who must be in the squad. He made Conrad Smith look like a schoolboy. Burrell was poor in NZ but had a storming 6N and deserves to be there too.

After this, it becomes harder. Bath's Devoto could play 13, and hopefully Banahan is a no. Joseph looked promising but has dropped off. Tompkins is another for the future, and Tomkins didn't look international class when given the chance and I think is back in league. Can't see Waldouck making it either. Quins have some talented young centres in Sloan (probably won't make it) and Marchant (could do in the future, but very young) and Hopper impresses some. He's too flakey for me and Lowe, if he reaches his previous form from before this horrible injury, is a real possibility, underrated in attack and defence. Daly has IMO all the weapons to play 13 and hopefully will start there and not at 15 for Wasps. Trinder is another good player but needs to stay fit. The others at Falcons etc don't look like options to me.

So manu and Burrell then. I'd have Lowe and Daly next, then Daly, Tompkins and Devoto as the future.

Wing- we have had issues here but I actually think the options are good and varied. We are just low on time to pick them properly. Yarde, now playing with Brown at Quins, has nailed one shirt down with his attack. The other main contenders are Ashton, who had a good club season but may have run out of lives, May, who can't seem to run straight and fulfill his promise, Nowell, who improved through the 6N but doesn't score many tries (adds a lot else though, similar to Watson, another option) and Wade who is untested thanks to injury but looks magic to me and must get a run out frankly. Then FBs like Foden are also in the mix.

Saints also have Elliott, who is understated and does his basics very well. I think he could do well alla Cueto, who himself is too old now days. Thompstone doesn't quite look up to this level and Benjamin needs to prove he is still the player he looked before injury. Strettle does it all at club level but has struggled for England. Williams will never get capped after the B word, Monye has lost his pace but Charlie Walker looks like he might be a future England winger with his pace and ability to play 13 and 15. Arnott and Jess aren't quite there, neither is Brady. Cato hasn't fulfilled his potential but Kiribirige looks the real deal for Falcons in a few years. Ojo has missed the boat, and Lewington looks good but not great (don't know how James Short has been doing at Irish, looked good at Sarries). Sharples has fallen from favour but is still a great attacker if we need more in attack, JSD is too old now. Woodburn is quick but I don't know much about him. Can't see Banahan getting another chance, and Rocky is on the list for the Saxons but I think unlikely to make the full step up. Earle looks lethal as a future winger. Stegmann and Sam Smith are too flawed in defence without the pure danger to counter this. Finally Varndell is a long shot but still a menace to defences at AP level.


I'd go with Yarde and Wade, with Watson, Nowell and May as back ups for now.

All are young but other youngsters to step up are Earle, Walker and Kiribirige.


15- Mike Brown has the shirt if he can approach his AI and 6N form of last year when he was possibly the best in the World. Behind him Foden is proven int class but in my eyes has never neared his form of 3-4 years ago. Goode needs pace outside him but adds a dimension to how England can play. And May, daly, Nowell, Watson can all play FB too. It is a global area of strength and every club has an option here.

With Abendanon leaving and Watson a winger, Bath can offer the solid Luke Arscott. Gloucester have lost (once England vaunted) Olly Morgan but Cook looks promising at 15. Wasps now have the decent option of Miller if Daly (please!!!) stays at 13. Irish have Homer, who i see mostly as a kicker. Catterick and Tait probably not good enough at Falcons. Tom Arscott very underrated and wouldn't be too out of place. Chiefs will probably start Nowell at 15. Sarries have Goode but Ransom is ok too, and Welsh have some players I don't really know much about. Pennell, loyally staying at Wuss despite being in the NZ tour squad, is utterly class and I hope he gets to come back up. After MB for Quins is Chisholm who is dangerously pacy (but has been injured a fair bit) and OLH who wants to play 15s like it's 7s. Matt Tait is looking like the player e could have been if not for Robinson and injuries again but is still made of the same glass as Warburton and Pocock.

FBs have to be Brown, Foden, Goode, with the wingers as back ups and maybe Pennell if he goes on loan. For the future, Cook, maybe Earle and Watson look grand.


So all in all the backs look like:

Care, Youngs
Farrell, Burns,
Twelvetrees, (Eastmond)
Manu, Burrell,
Wade, Yarde, Watson (Nowell, May)
Brown, Goode, Foden

I'll comment on the overall situation, plan etc tomorrow.

With Slater out too, that's a blow for the Tiggers. Kitchener will get a good run alongside Deacon/Thorn I imagine, wouldn't be surprised to see him force himself into the reckoning for England

It is a shame for Parling and Tigers, and I wouldn't want to wish injury on anyone, but I do think this is an opportunity to see Attwood, Launchbury and Lawes develop as a unit. These are my preferred 3 moving forward and offer everything we need building to the WC next year.

bluestonevedder wrote:

jamesandimac wrote:Personally I thought Twelvetress was very good in the 6Ns, we showed a lot of width from his passing game (think of some of his miss passes which lead to line breaks out wide) and he showed a good running game too in the open.  Not to mention his defence was very solid and wis all round play was of a high standard (hitting rucks, clearing up loose ball).  I think he was maligned because his form dropped off late in the season, as did a number of players.  And lets not forget he didn't play for the best part of 6 weeks before the NZ game due to injury.

What are peoples thoughts on Joseph?

His form pick up towards the end of last season, after he returned from injury, and he's seemed to have picked up where he left off.

I agree with you again jamesandimac. 

36 for me does a lot of things well, and even though he had a poor summer tour I thought he performed well in the Six Nations. Lovely offload this weekend for one of Gloucester's tries and he's got a cannon of a boot too. 

Criticism of his defensive is ridiculous in my opinion. 

Competition for his shirt isn't exactly stifling, but he's going to have to hold off Burrell, Slade, and Eastmond.

Agree barring he ll have to hold off Burrell and Slade. His main problem is he hasn t had a standout game yet which isn t a problem for me as long as the team play well.

Just moving the debate back to LH prop for a second, anybody think Richard Barrington will have a shot at a spot in the England squad? I've heard good things and the bloke is massive.

Cumbrian wrote:Just moving the debate back to LH prop for a second, anybody think Richard Barrington will have a shot at a spot in the England squad?  I've heard good things and the bloke is massive.

I feel like I ought to know more about his prospects than I do. He's an option, but I'm not convinced he's anywhere near our best option (though I hope he keeps Mako out of the team when he's back).

My Back lines for the AI's (If Faz Is fit)

 SA/NZ/
 9) Care, 10) Faz
 12) Burrell, 13) Manu
 11) Yarde, 14) May, 15) Brown

 21) Youngs, 22) Ford, 23) Nowell

Aus
 9) Care, 10) Ford
 12) Eastmond, 13) Manu
 11) Yarde, 14) Nowell, 15) Brown


 21) Youngs, 22) Faz, 23) May
Samoa
 9) Youngs, 10) Ford
 12) Eastmond, 13) Joseph
 11) Watson 14) Roko 15) Foden

 21) Robson, 22) Cips/Salde, 23) Daly.

 But that is just what I would go with.

 So my teams for each game.

 NZ
 1) Marler, 2) Hartley, 3) Wilson
 4) Lawes, 5) Launchbury
 6) Haskell, 7) Robshaw, 8) Morgan
 9) Care, 10) Faz
 12) Burrell, 13) Manu
 11) Yarde, 14) May, 15) Brown

 16) Webber, 17) Waller, 18) Brookes, 20) Lawes, 21) Vunipola

 21) Youngs, 22) Ford, 23) Nowell?

 SA
 1) Marler, 2) Hartley, 3) Wilson
 4) Lawes, 5) Launchbury
 6) Haskell, 7) Robshaw, 8) Vunipola
 9) Care, 10) Faz
 12) Burrell, 13) Manu
 11) Yarde, 14) May, 15) Brown

16) Webber, 17) Waller, 18) Brookes, 19) Attwood, 20) Ewers
21) Youngs, 22) Ford, 23) Nowell?

 Samoa
 1) Waller, 2) Webber, 3) Brookes
 4) Kruis, 5) Kitchener/Lawes
 6) Wood, 7) Kevsic, 8) Ewers
 9) Youngs, 10) Ford
 12) Eastmond, 13) Joseph
 11) Watson 14) Roko 15) Foden

16) George, 17) Barrington, 18) Snickler, 19) Stooke, 20) Morgan
21) Robson, 22) Cips/Salde, 23) Daly

 AUS
 1) Marler, 2) Hartley, 3) Wilson
 4) Attwood, 5) Launchbury
 6) Ewers, 7) Robshaw, 8) Morgan
 9) Youngs, 10) Ford
 12) Eastmond, 13) Manu
 11) Yarde, 14) Nowell, 15) Brown

 16) Webber, 17) Waller, 18) Brookes, 20) Lawes, 21) Haskell/Kvesic

 21) Care, 22) Faz/Cips, 23) May/Joseph?

 Made some changes.

 In my world I would have Kvesic in for Robshaw and Ford for Faz but it isn't my world.

Disagree with Omc. I think Barrington is looking like a good option. Prefer him to Gill and personally think he's a better scrummager than Mako. Mako gets the nod because he excels around the park.

We'll see who gets the nod vs Bath. I think it will be Barrington as there is whole rotation policy on - Barrington started vs Wasps and Quins, Gill vs LI and Sale so I expect Saracens to revert back to Barrington for Bath.

The thing about Ford is that, in the Saints game at least, there were several times he was being put on the wing to 'hide' him when in defence. If you're having to 'hide' someone in a club game, surely they're going to get targeted and smashed to bits in an international game, no?

But if you have Care and Ford in there (or Cipriani), then you can afford to put Barritt in there to smash anything that moves.

Ive been a big detractor of Barritt...but im beginning to wonder if maybe we do need him in there with Manu and he can be the soft FH's minder.

Like wise it relys on the flankers whoever they are to cover that 10 channel rigourously.

The only other 12 i think we should look at is Eastmond. But i think that would need Farrell at 10.

How many games has Farrell played this season?

On a general point, England have four very tough matches ahead.  I hope it would be accepted as madness to play the same starting 15 in all four matches, and that Lancaster will use the opportunity to try different combinations without losing the overall plot.  So obviously against the RSA you may need to field a more muscular pack (Attwood starting with perhaps Haskell in the backrow, but not just limited to these).  So there should be scope to try things with the attempt to provide balanced combinations.

Most probably agree with you CB

GeordieFalcon wrote:But if you have Care and Ford in there (or Cipriani), then you can afford to put Barritt in there to smash anything that moves.

Ive been a big detractor of Barritt...but im beginning to wonder if maybe we do need him in there with Manu and he can be the soft FH's minder.

Like wise it relys on the flankers whoever they are to cover that 10 channel rigourously.

The only other 12 i think we should look at is Eastmond. But i think that would need Farrell at 10.

How many games has Farrell played this season?

The only problem with that GF is that it reverts back to just one proper distributor in the backline and that means if Ford is in a ruck the ball is not used properly. Likewise if a second or third pass is required that isn't happening either.

In this day and age you need four or five players (forwards and backs) who are very comfortable on the ball, moving it wide or being involved in flowing plays. Webber did it to good effect in NZ and Robshaw often stands there for Quins, even if he doesn't pass quite as much.

This is why, I think Lancs is driving at a proper second FH at 12 and then bringing the others on around them. 36 has been fairly underwhelming so far this season, not helped by some of James Hook's play it must be said. Eastmond is the only real livewire 12 in the AP at the moment and he'd probably be my choice to partner Tuilagi in mid-field with one of Ford, Burns, Cipriani at FH. That gives us good width but also more importantly a combination of width and running penetration from both 10 and 12.

cb wrote:On a general point, England have four very tough matches ahead.  I hope it would be accepted as madness to play the same starting 15 in all four matches, and that Lancaster will use the opportunity to try different combinations without losing the overall plot.  So obviously against the RSA you may need to field a more muscular pack (Attwood starting with perhaps Haskell in the backrow, but not just limited to these).  So there should be scope to try things with the attempt to provide balanced combinations.

Have to say I disagree. I think Lancaster will have in mind the starting XV for the RWC and he'll want to start that team (as close to as possible) in every game between now and the end of that tournament.

I have to say I think that's probably for the best as the most important thing now is building as much continuity as possible. Whoever starts against NZ should be considered as first choice for the tournament. I understand the argument of horses for courses and some of Lancs selections wouldn't be mine but that's what I think he'll do.

As far as Attwood goes, if his line-out calling is trusted enough then I think he'll start alongside Launchbury for the NZ game. It's possible Lawes may go ahead but his injury might be more long-term than is indicated.

If I had to pick 2 players in each position and have 1 that should be on the radar I would go for (including current injuries).

  1) Marler, Waller Looking at Barrington
  2) Hartley, Webber looking at George
  3) Wilson, Brookes looking at Sinckler
  4) Launchbury, Kitchener looking at Stooke
  5) Lawes, Attwood, Looking at Kruis
  6) Haskell, Wood, looking at Croft (fitness)
  7) Robshaw, Kvesic looking at Fraser
  8) Morgan, Vunipola, Looking at Ewers
  9) Care, Youngs looking at Robson
10) Faz, Ford looking at Cips
11) Yarde, Wade looking at Roko
12) Eastmond, Burrell looking at Slade
13) Manu, Joesph looking at Daly
14) Watson, May looking at Benjamin
15) Brown, Nowell looking at Foden (Consistency)

CHJ

Eastmond is the only real livewire 12 in the AP at the moment and he'd probably be my choice to partner Tuilagi in mid-field with one of Ford, Burns, Cipriani at FH. That gives us good width but also more importantly a combination of width and running penetration from both 10 and 12.

I would love to see Eastmond start at 12 with someone like Cipriani or Ford or Burns....however and let me make it clear im not a defence is all that matters kind of guy....but i just worry how that would cope defensively. Could they cope with Alberts or someone smashing down that channel all game? Would they have to make specific plans bringing Manu in to 12 on defence or have Wood / Robshaw target there.

Maybe they could cope..but i suspect it could be a weak link. I would like to be proven wrong.

Welly

How can you explain Nowell as 2nd choice full back above Foden let alone mention Goode?

Benjamin? Again based on what exactly?

As for Watson - he's currently injured. Yarde has started this season with a whimper.

Rest I agree with but just like Lancaster it's the wings where it all goes wrong.

beshocked wrote:Welly

How can you explain Nowell as 2nd choice full back above Foden let alone mention Goode?

Benjamin? Again based on what exactly?

As for Watson - he's currently injured. Yarde has started this season with a whimper.

Rest I agree with but just like Lancaster it's the wings where it all goes wrong.

Who would you go with?

I suspect a lot will depend on how Yarde goes in training, given the general malaise at quins. Last year he looked custom made for the international game.

If Brown is out personally I'd expect a back 3 of Nowell, May and Foden, but suspect the bath Fijian might be in with a good shout. Like lots of people I'd love to see Wade in with a shout but in some ways he is in the same boat as Yarde

Wade,Ashton and Foden.

Reason for Ashton - he's the most experienced winger by some distance, he has played many times with Foden. England just need to get the best out of him.

Wade - I want to see what he can do.

Foden - why not?

So potentially our backline could be:

9 Care
10 Cipriani / Ford / Burns
11 Wade
12 Eastmond
13 Manu
14 Ashton
15 Brown

Dear god i hope Manu and Brown have their tackling boots on as they're going to have to be covering the rest of them!

beshocked wrote:Welly

How can you explain Nowell as 2nd choice full back above Foden let alone mention Goode?

Benjamin? Again based on what exactly?

As for Watson - he's currently injured. Yarde has started this season with a whimper.

Rest I agree with but just like Lancaster it's the wings where it all goes wrong.

 Foden has been so inconsistent lately the reason I put looking at him is if he can get his consistency back I would have him as 2nd choice FB.

 Benjamin again looking at him because he has natural speed, strong in the tackle and has a good clearance boot, if he can get game time and not injured again I would have him in the squad.

 Watson should be fit for the start of the AI's.

 and Ashton has had his chances for England and has not impressed in any of late, Face it England's game plan doesn't fit him anymore. An I think May could well be doing that as well.


 If foden regains his form and Watson is injured would be tempted to go:

 Wade, Yarde
 May, Nowell
 Brown, foden

Brown is the unquestioned starter for me unless Foden turns in a streak of 2011 type performances and Brown's form drops

Yarde is my first pick on one wing, pace and power, good finishing instinct shown so far, got to give him a go with a consistent backline

Wade on the other, that bit of magic he offers when fit is maybe what we have been lacking, wouldn't want to see him up against Savea though

Welly how has Foden been inconsistent?

He was excellent vs Bath, he's been very consistent for England.

So basically what you're saying with Ashton is that he should be permanently dropped? Seems a bit harsh when none of the other wing candidates have stood out.

Has anyone else watched Yarde play this season? He's been poor.

Wing really worries me.

Does anyone know when the squads are actually named? I know it was meant to be October, but do we have a specific date

considering he hasn't started for England in an age I doubt you can say he is consistent.

 And Foden form has been on and off for a bit.

 But if on form I would personally have him instead of Brown but bbrown is more reliable.

 Not really permanently dropped but whilst there are other wingers about I would try them.

 As you said he is the most experienced player yet has been one of the worst players England when he played.  and the fact he has so many caps compared to other wingers and failed to secure that shirt is worrying

 Yarde has been poor true.

 And again I agree about the worry of the wings.

Welly

I just don't think any of the other wingers are better than Ashton bar than perhaps Wade.

There are no outstanding candidates tearing up opposition.

It worries me when people say random names because I don't think there is anyone excelling.

It's not like other positions where you can make a case for Ford,Eastmond etc.

We have done the Ashton discussions to death. There does seem to be an issue moving up to internationals now.

Either he isnt adapting to playing with England or England need to adapt how they play to bring the best out of him, but he hasnt worked when he has been picked the last few times.

The best question might be who is currently on form?
May is.
Nowell has shown some good things but its still very early days.
Roko is.
Yarde isnt
I dont think Wade is quite there either
Foden is (probably)

Would take May, Nowell, Wade and Yarde (despite form) ahead of Ashton at the least.


 Also on Club form should someone like ben Morgan even be in the squad?

Welly wrote:Would take May, Nowell, Wade and Yarde (despite form) ahead of Ashton at the least.


 Also on Club form should someone like ben Morgan even be in the squad?

Probably not. But then last year he showed that club form and international form was different. He is certainly a way behind Billy these days

beshocked wrote:Welly

I just don't think any of the other wingers are better than Ashton bar than perhaps Wade.

There are no outstanding candidates tearing up opposition.

It worries me when people say random names because I don't think there is anyone excelling.

It's not like other positions where you can make a case for Ford,Eastmond etc.

If you needed a winger to drop back and cover for Mike Brown (or Foden) to go on marauding runs and stay upfield in the attacking line, as Brown did pretty often and successfull in 6N, would your statement still stand?

Dubbelyew L Overate wrote:

beshocked wrote:Welly

I just don't think any of the other wingers are better than Ashton bar than perhaps Wade.

There are no outstanding candidates tearing up opposition.

It worries me when people say random names because I don't think there is anyone excelling.

It's not like other positions where you can make a case for Ford,Eastmond etc.

If you needed a winger to drop back and cover for Mike Brown (or Foden) to go on marauding runs and stay upfield in the attacking line, as Brown did pretty often and successfull in 6N, would your statement still stand?

I guess it depends how England want to use their wingers. You play to your winger's strengths. As for Lancaster and wing play I can't say I have much faith in him. It's quite clearly been an England weakness. I know I am

Any back moves was a weakness before last year (the default option pretty much being pass to Manu and hope) but last season was a big improvement (in that we used both centers and the FB). We can only hope the improvements move further out into the backs.

Ben Morgan always plays better for England than he does for Glos so thats a different point.

As for Ashton...whilst he's not been great i think no winger has looked good under the current tactics. Many have been tried and none shone.

I like Ashton when he's used properly...as Burrell was this 6n...running lines into gaps.

Im not sure why he's not making those runs anymore..i suspect its more to do with tactics than Ashton just not doing it.

Personally a fit and firing Ashton being used properly is a potent weapon...but whilst he's not...hes a waste of a postion. But i worry about who WILL actually succeed under these tactics.

Exactly Geordiefalcon.

Which winger has truly shone under Lancaster?

I think it's fair to say that Brown's light was shining during 6N and I'd argue that it was Nowell and May's propensity for sharing full back duties that enabled him to shine.

I don't particularly care which position scores tries for England, provided that they score more points than the opposition. Picking wingers purely on their attacking prowess neglects the ablilty that wingers can have in allowing the players around them to play to their full potential.

I'd say that with a full back with the attacking prowess of an on-form Brown or Foden requires a winger who's an auxiliary full-back. With a centre like Manu, a winger to support him, clear out and provide quick ball would be an asset. If we had wingers who can combine those abilities with a top class attacking threat themselves, that would be nice. I'd say that Ashton doesn't, Wade may not and Yarde could do with improvement. Nowell needs to learn to play with 2 legs instead of just the one. May doesn't always inspire confidence, but has a good balance in his abilities and, of course, there's always Tom Croft.

As a compromise, I'd go for one auxiliary full back, and one attacker, perhaps May/Nowell/Watson with Yarde/Wade/Ashton.

Playing croft would indeed allow us to be more adventurous in the backs

he hasnt really done anything yet this season though

I thought Nowell and May were both pretty poor in the 6N's. I remember botched try scoring opportunities, poor tackling, bad running lines and quite a few dropped balls. Not sure if any other wing would do better but I don't think either of those too can be pleased with their performances.

You can only blame gameplan so much, as a wing you do go and have to go look for work if you're not getting the ball. And both we're getting a fair amount from all the kicking too.

So the coaching team is tied in until 2020 now... http://www.espnscrum.com/england/rugby/story/243011.html    Is this a good thing??

Don't rate Nowell or May. May in particular has been excellent so far this season in the Premiership but has done nothing for England in my opinion. Would like to see Roko given an opportunity, bit of brute force and finishing as a foil to the likely other winger, Yarde. Even though his form has been poor this is probably a reflection of the current malaise at Quins and he has performed well in most of his international appearances which counts for a lot. Would like to see Wade given an opportunity but as BamBam mentioned not against Savea or Ben Smith even. Probably begs the question, what's the point of having an internationl winger who you only play against weaker sides? You want a horse for all courses. Sadly I don't think we have one.

Playing croft would indeed allow us to be more adventurous in the backs

If we're replacing Wood at 6 then we need more power in there not even less power and weakness that Croft brings.

Having someone like Haskell making his runs,and creating holes can be just as effective.

Tom Wood is neither quick and creative nor a power runner like Haskell etc.

dgttaylor wrote:Don't rate Nowell or May. May in particular has been excellent so far this season in the Premiership but has done nothing for England in my opinion. Would like to see Roko given an opportunity, bit of brute force and finishing as a foil to the likely other winger, Yarde. Even though his form has been poor this is probably a reflection of the current malaise at Quins and he has performed well in most of his international appearances which counts for a lot. Would like to see Wade given an opportunity but as BamBam mentioned not against Savea or Ben Smith even. Probably begs the question, what's the point of having an internationl winger who you only play against weaker sides? You want a horse for all courses. Sadly I don't think we have one.

I wouldn't worry about Wade against those two, they've made fools if far bigger and more defensive wingers. If it happens it happens but I think Brown can help him out if needed and we should give Wade more credit.

Nowell's tackling during the 6N was very good I thought. We all know what a tough day he had vs France but he made more than his share of tackles.

Actually i thought Nowell did quite well in the 6n.

He does look more suited to FB, however it was his first senior games in the 6n baptism of fire in Paris...

He's bulked up and is much quicker by all accounts through his layoff.

His had a lot of negative comments on here...i for one wouldnt have an issue if he played this AI's

1) He's not as lacking offensively as some make out. He will score tries.
2) He's far stronger defensively than most of the other wingers.
3) Lancaster doesnt play his wingers so may as well have a solid alrounder than say Wade who will ultimately only become a weakness.

What we need is a new young Ben Cohen type. Not the bulked up past it version...the young fast powerful version.

I would like to be proved wrong as we will need to have an established wing pairing come the World Cup. It may take a bit of experimentation during the AI's but come the 6N's the pecking order should be established.

To be fair to Nowell I haven't given him a lot of credit considering his age. Taking that in to account he probably deserves a few more chances, particularly if he has made some physical changes, hopefully which will be put to good use during the AI's.

Agree with you Yappysnap, it is pretty irrelevant who you pick against those two, in current form they seem unstoppable. In part due to their natural ability but also you have to feel that the All Blacks know they have some gems and will look to play to their strengths.

Johnson is out of the AI's too.   It's unfortunate for the player, but I'm not sure if he'd actually be involved.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/0/rugby-union/29456488

Ultimately i think Nowell will be a FB.

And i understand Beshocks arguement that surely wingers should be try scorers...but under the England set up its seems that wingers are irrelevant...id like to know the percentage of trys scored under his reign from wings.

But due to his alround solidity at the moment i would look to give Nowell a shot.

Watson looks like he could be an option...but i'd love to see us produce a big 6'2 / 6'3 size winger with genuine pace and power.

Agree Cumbrian, that spot in the squad can go to another...maybe his Exeter team mate Ewers.

Looked up Savea's stats and says he is 6'4. My flat mate works at AIG (All Black's sponsor) and they did an office walk around when in London for the AI's last year. My flat mate is 5'11 and had his photo with him and said Savea wasn't any taller. In the photo they look the same height. He did say he was very wide and had serious depth to his chest but surely he cannot have misjudged his height that much!

Rokoduguni is only 6' but listed as 16 st. That's a decent start.

Yeah ive always wondered about Savea being listed as 6'4. He doesnt look that.

Roko could very well be the answer...

I think its clear why Lancaster tried the Manu on the wing trial. Sadly that one didnt wrk...but we need a genuine power winger to come through.

GeordieFalcon wrote:Actually i thought Nowell did quite well in the 6n.

He does look more suited to FB, however it was his first senior games in the 6n baptism of fire in Paris...

He's bulked up and is much quicker by all accounts through his layoff.

His had a lot of negative comments on here...i for one wouldnt have an issue if he played this AI's

1) He's not as lacking offensively as some make out. He will score tries.
2) He's far stronger defensively than most of the other wingers.
3) Lancaster doesnt play his wingers so may as well have a solid alrounder than say Wade who will ultimately only become a weakness.

What we need is a new young Ben Cohen type. Not the bulked up past it version...the young fast powerful version.

If he plays fair enough, we know why Lancaster likes him.

I want to see him and other wingers scoring tries first at club level then England. In the 6 nations Nowell and May got 1 between them in 5 games. It's simply not good enough in my opinion. Plus the try was a walk in vs Italy when the damage had been done.

Cohen was a really good finisher. A try strike rate of more than 50%.

If someone can score 11 tries in one year of the HC yet struggle on the wing for England surely there is a problem?

Lancaster may not get much production from his wings, but that's hardly unique in English rugby. Until Ashton came on the scene, the most famous passage of play involving a winger in the post-Woodward era was probably Cueto's disallowed try in the 2007 World Cup final.