Doing the inventory: England

First topic message reminder :

Doing the inventory: England

Edit: I will update with backs when I have time. This took longer than expected.

Hey guys,
 
This page is for discussing the England team and set up ahead of the run in to the RWC and please please add your comments whichever team you support. Also please feel free to add your own "inventories" for your own national teams for comparison's sake. It's very interesting to see other teams from their fans' points of view and also those Same fans' opinions on our team!

There is a lot of debate over what England's best side is, what players we have available and what needs to be sorted before the World Cup. As we are 1 year out in terms of competitive domestic and international play, I thought it would be great to go through every position and do a stock check of our current, RWC and future prospects there, highlighting our likely squad and first team as well as our strengths and weaknesses. This is all my own opinion so please feel free to add yours or correct me if I have stated something factually incorrect.


LH- this is indubitably an area of strength. Already ready for England we have Lions Alex Corbisiero (great scrummager, but injury concern, when fit has impressed hugely and looks potentially a world class player) and Mako Vunipola (had some issues recently in the scrum but young, improving and a devastating carrier, a real impact sub to use against weaker scrummaging nations), not to mention new Quins captain and one of the most improved international players last year, Joe Marler (hugely better in the scrum under the new laws, offers a lot in terms of work rate but seems to have lost the ball playing and running that originally won him plaudits at club level). The RWC squad will have all 3 in, which starting is hard to say and probably depends on Corbs' knees.

Behind these 3, we have several players who could step in at this moment in time and a good looking future.

Gloucester's Wood was once highly vaunted but appears to have lost a lot of form. Matt Mullan has played for England and has the work in the loose and solid set piece to be a good 4th choice. Alex Waller looked great last season for Saints and if Corbs isn't fit he will get a chance to shine again- he's also young and will get capped in my opinion. His brother Ethan looks promising (though possibly will move to tight head). Barrington has potential though probably not enough to get capped, and Balmain with his ability to play both sides of te scrum surely has a strong future. Nathan Catt is another I could see doing a job if needed and has a good future. Interestingly my searches reveal that Sale have a Moldovan prop, good to see less known rugby nations have players at this level!

All in all, I think we can say Marler, Corbs and Vunipola are tier one (all int class, one top int class and one possibly world class), with Catt, Mullan and Waller behind and Balmain possibly the future. Here we are strong

Hooker- hooker has been an area of huge worry for years, but we seem to be strong here right now. Established options are Hartley (in form, an exceptional player though with a tendency to pop up in the scrum and recent indiscretions, also adds leadership), Webber (looks in form, partnership with Wilson, has taken his chances well) and Lion Tom Youngs (worries re his size, hooking and throwing! But can get the throwing perfectly when in a groove, great at carrying and the breakdown, adds a dimension to our dynamic pack).

Behind these players, we have Paice, who doesn't impress me, George who needs gametime but has huge promise especially in tight carrying for Sarries (he can learn from literally the best in the premiership) and 3 players for Quins. Joe Gray is technically excellent but small and injury prone. Buchanan is powerful and a carrier but raw. Ward is a turnover and ripping machine with a backrow's linkman skills and a centre's pace but has awful days at the lineout and is also small. Any would be ok for me filling in as 4th for England.

Cowan Dickie, once a prop, has lots of potential but needs another season in the shirt for Exeter. Lindsay of Wasps has fallen off his huge potential and I can only hope he springs back.

Overall, Hartley, Webber and Youngs are a good trio, Ward and Gray are good backup and with LCD and George the future looks bright too, certainly better than a few years ago.

TH- this is a tricky area for every team. Currently Dan Cole is injured and was in poor form, but he has been a top level international TH with experience, good technique and an exceptional man in the breakdown. Dave Wilson has filled in nicely for him. Thomas doesn't not convince me hugely as 3rd choice but his cameos have been ok, and he should improve his scrummaging at Bath though may also lose his place playing regularly in the premiership behind Wilson.

We have mentioned Ethan Waller as one for the future. Jake Cooper Wooley of Wasps, who started as a LH is another. Harden and Knight have struggled in a weak Gloucester pack. This looks improved next seasons but this might stop them from getting gametime. Newcastle offer one for the present, the impressive Kieron Brookes, and the future with the raw but talented Wilson. Quins' PDJ looks a spent force but Sinckler looks certain for a cap with his quick learning and strong, pacey carrying. Collier is another Quins option maybe a little less talented but closer to ready.

Cole and Wilson, in uncertain order, will play. The 3rd choice is more open, Thomas could keep it but I see Brookes or Collier leapfrogging him. In the future, we should be ok with JCW, Sinckler and "little" Wilson.

Locks- lots of debate over our starting duo. For me it is still Lawes (much improved over the last season, and fulfilling his potential at last, with soft hands and athleticism) and Launchbury (essentially an extra flanker as well as a lock), closely followed by Attwood to add a power option and Parling for his experience and lineout skills. I can see the argument to start Launchbury with whichever of the above had his club mate at hooker, but as this will be Hartley that changes nothing.

Saracens' Botha has caps and though shouldn't be near starting would not let England down in a crisis. Same goes for Robson of Quins, and Day of Saints is very underrated. None are particularly exciting though. Tigers have a blessing of riches here, with Slater (also a 6) very promising and IMO next in line, but Kitchener also highly rated for a different sort of lock. Deacon's time is last but he would still be acceptable if needed. George Skivington is IMO very underrated and is a player I'd like to see get a chance though I suspect he won't. Schofield is unlikely to add to his caps. Palmer is too old but could step in if in dire need, and Savage looks a good player with a potential cap for me.


For the future, though Launch is young, Matthews has yet to fulfil his promise but looks on track after the end of last seasons for Quins. Will Carrick Smlth is a monster that I know little else about. Stookes has potential as does George Kruis, but Dom Barrow possibly has the most of all, and Itoje in the longer term looks a certain cap.


I'd say Launch + Lawes, Parling and Attwood followed by Kitchener and Slater, with Kruis and Barrow as the future.

6- an interesting Position with many roles. Tom Wood is an excellent 6 who works with our 7, and a good leader. Behind him, James Haskell finally looks the real deal. Tom Johnson is solid but unexceptional, an option certainly.

Callum Clarke is loved by Lancaster but not by some fans. I think he had a great season last year but is not the player to bring England forward. Matt Garvey is NOT loved by Lancaster but is exactly te option at 6 or lock we could do with. In his absence (we assume), Slater could fill in at 6. Kruis is a decent 6 but a better lock, and Wray is good but not enough to cap. If Croft can come back well from injury and stay fit he adds something no other englAnd forward can (real attacking running and a great lineout) and is a shoe in for the squad, lack of physicality or not. Gibson has also looked very good for Tigers and deserves a shot at some point but also lacks power. Tom Guest is too old now to get his first cap realistically much to my dismay. Gaskell frankly doesn't impress me much at all. Welch and Wilson at Falcons look good players but unlikely to feature. Carl Fearns adds power and isn't shabby at the breakdown and should be considered too.

In terms of the future, Charlie Blair Walker is an exciting player, and S Jones will surely get capped at 6 or 7, otherwise I struggle to see many young but not academy players in this position. Moriarity could break through if his pack gives him the platform.

7- here Robshaw stands alone with Armitage in exile. Armitage's carrying and scavenging would be useful but not enough to set a dangerous precedent. Robshaw is a jack of all trades, master of all trades though sadly I expect him to go underrated his entire career. After him comes Kvesic who has had good spells, and offers a blend of breakdown and tackling but had a poor season at Gloucester. He will hope his new-look pack can help him out because he is talented.

At Saints, Clarke and wood can play 7. Dowson didn't look up to int level at all. Will Fraser has genuine talent and I hope he can stay fit as he is both present and future. Luke Wallace will get gametime at 6 and when Robshaw is away. He's a great ball player and fetcher but easily caught out of position. Scaysborough is a solid 7 but unlikely to get a look in, and the same applies for Betty, Seymour and Lund. Guy Thompson impresses me as a utility back row but not enough, Rowan looks an option for the future.  Andy Saull seems to have fallen off the horizon, and I can't see him fighting back in.


I think Wood, Haskell and Robshaw are certains here. After that it becomes hard. Slater can play 6. I would love Garvey but doubt we'll see him. After that, Fraser and Kvesic and maybe Wallace at 7 (Rowan and Jones future options) and Fearns, Gibson and Croft at 6 (Kruis and Moriarity maybe the future here). I thought we'd be stronger than we are at flanker.

8- in Billy Vunipola and Morgan we have 2 great options at 8, both powerful though with different carrying specialties. Haskell adds extra cover here too.

After these two, we are better here than I thought. Dickinson is solid. Easter is old but could fill in come the RWC in his current state (ie phenomenal). Crane is back on track with Waldrom ( no thanks) gone. Jack Clifford is the future. Fearns can play here and Burgess may be trialled here. Guest is getting on but good enough, ditto Narraway, York has fallen off the radar. And Ewers is raw but talented.


I would say Billy and Morgan helped by Haskell, with Ewers next, maybe Crane and Easter in an emergency. Clifford for the future, plus Billy will be playing for years to come.



So that gives a pack of

Marler, Corbs, Vunipola
Youngs, Hartley, Webber
Cole, Wilson, Brookes
Lawes,Launchbury, Parling, Attwood
Wood, Haskell, Croft
Robshaw, Fraser
Vunipola, Morgan


The backs:

England's backs have long been seen as an issue- with a dearth of flair, and thanks to the likes of Andy Robinson, a graveyard where the careers of promising young tyros chucked in the deep end go to die (I will never forgive the way he ruined Tait and Allen). However, a few key issues aside, I honestly feel we are stronger than most realise here and certainly stronger than any time in the past 10 years, a few fantastic players from that period aside.


9- not long ago, with Care lacking consistency and maturity and Youngs falling out of form, this was a big worry. However, Care seems to have grown into the player he should have been, fantastic for Quins, bringing that form to England and improving his pass, kick and mind to go with his high tempo and playmaking. Similarly, Youngs looked to be refinding his form at the end of last season and looking like the player we thought could be the best 9 in the world. Behind them, Lee Dickson isn't very exciting but he is solid enough for England and had a great season for Saints.

Behind these 3, Wrigglesworth is not a particularly flashy choice but he is an excellent tactical 9 and I would happily see him play in white. His club mate Spencer looks a long term option, with a similarly good kicking game. Joel Hodgson has gone down the pecking order by moving to Saints but with his skillset and 2 good 9s to learn from is another to watch out for. I don't know much about Harrison, but Karl Dickson at Quins is a solid player who could fill in if needed (not on last season's form though) and Burns and Stuart are ones to watch but need to add cleverness to their pace. Chiefs have 3 solid 9s in Lewis, Chudley and Thomas though I don't know enough about them to say if they could get caps. I don't hugely rate Young but Cook at Bath looks promising and Robson at Glaws too though he'll need to get ahead of Laidlaw, who I think is a silly buy for the club. Simpson offers a lot but also has too many flaws (like his pass...) for me to pick him for England.

Here we can easily say care, Youngs and Dickson, IMO followed by Wriggles and with Cook, Robson and Spencer my picks for the future.


10- more contentious here. Farrell, with his kicking and defence, is clearly the favourite here and has improved his attack but is still never going to be a Spencer or Larkham, and there are rumours he might be tried at 12 in the AIs. Behind him, it's a close 3 way race with Flood taking himself out of the picture. Burns had an awful season, but promises so much in terms of attack and using his backs, and if he can get ahead of Williams he will have a better platform at Tigers. Cipriani has lost the unplayable verve he once had but has also improved his temperament, defence and control and frankly looks the most balanced 10 we have in my eyes, whether he is trusted by others is another question. Ford has shown great tactical kicking and passing but poor goal kicking and is rather small for international rugby. Picking our 10s is key and is a real challenge.

Behind these players, Myler is solid. Hodgson has retired but Goode looked good in his cameos at 10 for Sarries and some have questioned the decision to ever move him from 10 to 15. Billy Burns is too young now but looks even better than his brother and Slade also looks a top quality player. Andy Goode is too old, and Geraghty seems to have fallen off the track that saw him shine so brightly in that one 6N campaign. Clegg too seems to have lost his touch and gone from flakey but a good attacker at Quins to a kicker with no flair at Falcons. I've heard good things about young Joe Ford. Barkley is past it IMO.

Farrell plus 2 of Cips, Ford and Burns, probably Ford and Burns though I think that's not the best call. For the future, mini Burns and Slade look most promising.


12- our biggest problem. Twelvetrees has looked great in spells but subpar in others. Eastmond with the opportunity to attack also looks class but was found massively defensively lacking in t3 in NZ. Burrell can play 12 but with Manu at 13? Can Manu play 12? Farrell? No easy decision here. Barritt has been a stalwart when given the chance but with Farrell at 10 and Manu at 13, that attack just seems far too blunt.


After the current squad members, there are other options. I hugely rate Allen and think he really does deserve another chance (damn you Robinson!). He has the passing (though his role for Tigers doesn't use it that often), the running lines and the defensive leadership to be what we need. However, it looks too late for Allen as he would have been picked before now were it to happen. Chris Bell is another solid clubman who I doubt raises enough pulses to get a chance. Burgess could come in at 12 but until he plays a minute of Union there is no way I can see him playing for England. Devoto looks a future star though. I don't know much about Guy Armitage at all, I'm sure Pete can enlighten me. Sam Hill I have seen and he impresses me a lot. Casson has lost a lot of form for Quins and whilst a fit JTH is vital for us and should have the power and offload to do well for England, his few caps didn't exactly inspire. And he's never ever fit. May at Welsh is ok but not an int. The last centre who springs to mind is Stephenson, for the future at least.


12 is hard but let's stick with 36 and Eastmond, with Burrell predominantly a 13 but an option. I'd love to see Allen there but we won't. For the future, Stephenson and Hill for me but I wouldn't be surprised or upset to see Devoto there.

13- Manu Tuilagi is, for his flaws (that strangely seem to materialise for England- he passes well at Tigers), a lethal player who must be in the squad. He made Conrad Smith look like a schoolboy. Burrell was poor in NZ but had a storming 6N and deserves to be there too.

After this, it becomes harder. Bath's Devoto could play 13, and hopefully Banahan is a no. Joseph looked promising but has dropped off. Tompkins is another for the future, and Tomkins didn't look international class when given the chance and I think is back in league. Can't see Waldouck making it either. Quins have some talented young centres in Sloan (probably won't make it) and Marchant (could do in the future, but very young) and Hopper impresses some. He's too flakey for me and Lowe, if he reaches his previous form from before this horrible injury, is a real possibility, underrated in attack and defence. Daly has IMO all the weapons to play 13 and hopefully will start there and not at 15 for Wasps. Trinder is another good player but needs to stay fit. The others at Falcons etc don't look like options to me.

So manu and Burrell then. I'd have Lowe and Daly next, then Daly, Tompkins and Devoto as the future.

Wing- we have had issues here but I actually think the options are good and varied. We are just low on time to pick them properly. Yarde, now playing with Brown at Quins, has nailed one shirt down with his attack. The other main contenders are Ashton, who had a good club season but may have run out of lives, May, who can't seem to run straight and fulfill his promise, Nowell, who improved through the 6N but doesn't score many tries (adds a lot else though, similar to Watson, another option) and Wade who is untested thanks to injury but looks magic to me and must get a run out frankly. Then FBs like Foden are also in the mix.

Saints also have Elliott, who is understated and does his basics very well. I think he could do well alla Cueto, who himself is too old now days. Thompstone doesn't quite look up to this level and Benjamin needs to prove he is still the player he looked before injury. Strettle does it all at club level but has struggled for England. Williams will never get capped after the B word, Monye has lost his pace but Charlie Walker looks like he might be a future England winger with his pace and ability to play 13 and 15. Arnott and Jess aren't quite there, neither is Brady. Cato hasn't fulfilled his potential but Kiribirige looks the real deal for Falcons in a few years. Ojo has missed the boat, and Lewington looks good but not great (don't know how James Short has been doing at Irish, looked good at Sarries). Sharples has fallen from favour but is still a great attacker if we need more in attack, JSD is too old now. Woodburn is quick but I don't know much about him. Can't see Banahan getting another chance, and Rocky is on the list for the Saxons but I think unlikely to make the full step up. Earle looks lethal as a future winger. Stegmann and Sam Smith are too flawed in defence without the pure danger to counter this. Finally Varndell is a long shot but still a menace to defences at AP level.


I'd go with Yarde and Wade, with Watson, Nowell and May as back ups for now.

All are young but other youngsters to step up are Earle, Walker and Kiribirige.


15- Mike Brown has the shirt if he can approach his AI and 6N form of last year when he was possibly the best in the World. Behind him Foden is proven int class but in my eyes has never neared his form of 3-4 years ago. Goode needs pace outside him but adds a dimension to how England can play. And May, daly, Nowell, Watson can all play FB too. It is a global area of strength and every club has an option here.

With Abendanon leaving and Watson a winger, Bath can offer the solid Luke Arscott. Gloucester have lost (once England vaunted) Olly Morgan but Cook looks promising at 15. Wasps now have the decent option of Miller if Daly (please!!!) stays at 13. Irish have Homer, who i see mostly as a kicker. Catterick and Tait probably not good enough at Falcons. Tom Arscott very underrated and wouldn't be too out of place. Chiefs will probably start Nowell at 15. Sarries have Goode but Ransom is ok too, and Welsh have some players I don't really know much about. Pennell, loyally staying at Wuss despite being in the NZ tour squad, is utterly class and I hope he gets to come back up. After MB for Quins is Chisholm who is dangerously pacy (but has been injured a fair bit) and OLH who wants to play 15s like it's 7s. Matt Tait is looking like the player e could have been if not for Robinson and injuries again but is still made of the same glass as Warburton and Pocock.

FBs have to be Brown, Foden, Goode, with the wingers as back ups and maybe Pennell if he goes on loan. For the future, Cook, maybe Earle and Watson look grand.


So all in all the backs look like:

Care, Youngs
Farrell, Burns,
Twelvetrees, (Eastmond)
Manu, Burrell,
Wade, Yarde, Watson (Nowell, May)
Brown, Goode, Foden

I'll comment on the overall situation, plan etc tomorrow.

Injury hasn't helped his cause for sure but the fact that nobody is putting their hand up as you put it to me is a direct result of all the chopping and changing. Moreover, the fact there have been injuries has allowed him to test out different combinations. So he has had ample opportunity to see a wide pool of players in different positions and if he can't get an overall idea from that not taking into account injuries, then to me that is poor management and similar to the situation in which McKenzie finds himself.

The one combo not tried so far is Burrell and Manu. I think that is worth a look for 2 tests. Plus Wade or Watson is worth a look on the wing. I would like to see his RWC 1st choice line up play the last 2 Autumn Internationals together as a warm up for the 6Ns, where they must have consistent selection and aim to win it. I agree that he has enough evidence on all the other backs to make a call.

England have only really chopped and changed recently down to injuries. Any changes that weren't directly down to injury were indirectly by bring players back in (to minimise chopping and changing). From what I've seen Lancaster has stuck with the same players where possible. The same other managers have done and got slated for (but Lancaster says the right thing so it's ok)

hugehandoff wrote:The one combo not tried so far is Burrell and Manu. I think that is worth a look for 2 tests. Plus Wade or Watson is worth a look on the wing. I would like to see his RWC 1st choice line up play the last 2 Autumn Internationals together as a warm up for the 6Ns, where they must have consistent selection and aim to win it. I agree that he has enough evidence on all the other backs to make a call.

And 36 and Manu if we're talking England.

No 7&1/2 wrote:

hugehandoff wrote:The one combo not tried so far is Burrell and Manu. I think that is worth a look for 2 tests. Plus Wade or Watson is worth a look on the wing. I would like to see his RWC 1st choice line up play the last 2 Autumn Internationals together as a warm up for the 6Ns, where they must have consistent selection and aim to win it. I agree that he has enough evidence on all the other backs to make a call.

And 36 and Manu if we're talking England.

Absolutely correct, but I would try Burrell and Manu first. I believe that 36 is one of those who has been given chances and not really taken them (he has done ok but good enough to win a RWC?). For me he is out and interesting that SL gave Eastmond a crack over him in NZ.

My thinking is:

9. Care with Youngs as no.2
10. Farrell with Burns/Cips/Ford as no.2 and they all offer something different to Farrell in terms of standing flat and being more attacking
12. The really difficult one. Give Burrell a go and if it does not work then revert to Brad Barritt and then 36. Maybe Alex Goode?
13. Manu with probably Burrell as back up. If Manu gets injured then 36 and Burrell back in the centres may be sensible.
11. Yarde
14. Wade....to cover both wings probably Ashton/May/Watson.
15. Brown with Foden no.2

Just think Twelvetrees looked unfit in NZ. i also don t think you necessarily need outstanding players in all positions just ones who fit the pattern of play and compliment others.

I concur with many of the views, in that I would like to see Burrell and Manu given a chance together.  Burrell was I think one of the leading players in the Six Nations (Albeit at outside centre), and in the 3rd test at least solidified the mid-field when brought on.  He deserves a further opportunity (with Manu).  Manu is very difficult to drop as he seems one of our few players who may be close to world class.

I do not think Twelvetrees is a bad option but is clearly a different player to Burrell.

Manu is very difficult to drop as he seems one of our few players who may be close to world class

I think he needs to develop his handling skills substantially before he can even think about being world class.

I think the Burrell/Tuilagi is bound to be tested during the AIs, and rightly so I think. I have reservations over it, most people do, but it's certainly worth a proper look.

The real question is whether to test it properly Farrell at 10 and Brown at 15 are the right options to support it, or whether Burns/Ford/Cipriani would be a better bet at 10, and Goode a better bet at 15 to give the right sort of balance, particularly with proper wingers like Wade and Yarde out wide.

I appreciate we're going round in circles a bit on this. We just need the season to start so that we can start making judgements on form as well. A bolter could well emerge!

Depends if Goode can run and tackle at int level yet really

Well I'm a big fan of the Bath trio of Ford, Eastmond and Watson. I'll be watching them closely in the first half of the season as there is real talent there, and two of them (Ford and Eastmond) have already shown flashes of talent at international level.

If Burrell and Manu are to be tried in the centre together, I thinks Cips needs to be tried at 10. He has the game to use their strong running lines whilst keeping the defence honest as he will exploit any gaps made by the back row covering too far across too quickly.

Slightly out of the box thought, we keep talking about using Goode as a 2nd playmaker, how about Cips at full back. He has played there at high level and with his pace and running lines he could be a big threat coming into the line. This would allow us to keep Farrell at 10 for his defence and kicking whilst mixing it up a bit in attack.

funnyExiledScot wrote:

I appreciate we're going round in circles a bit on this. We just need the season to start so that we can start making judgements on form as well. A bolter could well emerge!

We certainly need the season to start so we have some actual rugby to review, analyse and pontificate over.

FES has a point...Eastmond and Manu certainly looked interesting in the first test.

Looked shocking in the 3rd. A work in progress but I doubt they are in pole position for midfield.

Looked shocking in the 3rd.

So did the rest of the team...

Looked better in the 2nd half once a inside centre who decided he wanted to try tackling though.

Combos combos. Farrell at 10 Eastmond at 12 and Manu at 13 could work, especially with Farrell and Eastmond swapping position from time to time. Defensively should work and might be a way of making the most of Eastmond's distribution as well as giving hugely contrasting threats in the center.

Play Burrell and Manu then I guess you want more of a cips at 10

Strongest midfield combo of the last couple of years was probably Farrel/36/Burrell in the last 6N, but then if you have Manu available you have to play him, and so we go on, round and round in circles........

and so we go on, round and round in circles.........

Couldnt have put it better LIW

Twelvetrees has had some shockers and still been selected by SL.
Seems a bit unfair that Eastmond had 1 bad game and then is never considered again!

Lets not forget that the (supposed 1st teamers) that came into the England squad late in NZ also really failed to make any impact. But there were some dirt trackers that played in the Crusaders game that really put their hands up.

Twelvetrees shockers have been slightly below par games for me. Eastmond was dreadful but I still wouldn't drop him from the scene. Bit of balance needed.

No 7&1/2 wrote:Looked better in the 2nd half once a inside centre who decided he wanted to try tackling though.

I dont think anyones tackling did themselves any favours in NZ to be fair...on an average through the tests Manu and Eastmond were the best combo.

Burrell didnt offer anything in the 3rd test.

Can't agree. Eastmond has a lot to offer England going forward but NZ had him on toast. Burrell was limited in attack at 12 as he (in my eyes) won't be suited to 12 role England want but he at least stemmed the tide of them running through the massive gap in inside centre.

Anyway as i said previously its irrlevant

10 Farrell
12 Twelvetrees
13 Tuilaagi

Will start the first test with :
19 Burrell
On the bench

I'm an old fashioned prop, so I only ever really get one of these problems (when I'm lingering on the wing)
But as a 12 - what is worse, conceding a try when you are boshed out of the way in a 1 on 1 straight up tackle or when a try is conceded and you werent near the oponent because your out of position!

No 7&1/2 wrote:Can't agree. Eastmond has a lot to offer England going forward but NZ had him on toast. Burrell was limited in attack at 12 as he (in my eyes) won't be suited to 12 role England want but he at least stemmed the tide of them running through the massive gap in inside centre.

They didnt have him n toast, your getting as bad as Beshocked with Nowell in the France game.

What did Burrell offer in that game that was so much better?

PS Im a big fan of Burrell he was our best player alongside Brown in the 6n. BUt he wasnt great on tour...with half the side...Launchbury etc. Plus the level when NZ picked it up was just too much for us to live with

I'm with 7.5, the ABs had Eastmond on toast with a bit left over for a muffin. It wasn’t entirely his fault as the original damage was done at the breakdown dominated by NZ, and poor old Splash ‘n’ Yarde just flapped a bit – but they did have half the width of the pitch to cover.

If we play Eastmond, Ashton & Yarde at the same time (without an order of magnitude improvement in tackling & defensive position) we won’t win a game this autumn, because for every England score there'll be 2 from the oppo.

Eastmond wont start. Twelvetrees will

No worry about the defence...well to be fair Twelvetrees is hardly the best there either and no better than Eastmond but dont expect us to score many tries.

Sorry but NZ targeted Eastmond or at least waltzed past him. He did not enjoy a nice night. I can completely see why he was chosen and deserved to start but he was bad. NZ didnt do much different test 3 but defence led by midfield constantly let them on the front foot. In regards to Burrell he came on and made his tackles. Poor on tour maybe but did what Eastmond couldnt in that instance. Still 36 or KE as the choice at 12 in that order and Manu or Burrell at 13 in that order.

Can see us enjoying a good AIs 3out of 4 should be very possible. 4 ifwe get some luck.

The entire back line was out of position, even at set pieces. That's not Eastmond's fault, unless he was made defensive captain. If he was then more of it was the coaches fault because that is :cussing stupid.

It seemed to me that our defensive problems were caused more by poor positioning that defensive lapses (although I watched it once, live, so probably completely wrong).

No 7&1/2 wrote:Sorry but NZ targeted Eastmond or at least waltzed past him. He did not enjoy a nice night. I can completely see why he was chosen and deserved to start but he was bad. NZ didnt do much different test 3 but defence led by midfield constantly let them on the front foot. In regards to Burrell he came on and made his tackles. Poor on tour maybe but did what Eastmond couldnt in that instance. Still 36 or KE as the choice at 12 in that order and Manu or Burrell at 13 in that order.

Can see us enjoying a good AIs 3out of 4 should be very possible. 4 ifwe get some luck.

your living in cloud cuckoo land mate.

I'm pretty optimistic about the AI's too.  

I think two out of four is mandatory and three is definitely something we should be aiming for.  We're at home and we need to let people know that they can't rock up to our gaff and expect to win.

Australia are a good team but they are beatable, in fact I would make us slight favourites at Twickenham.

We pushed the All Blacks hard in NZ and I always think that we've got to be more optimistic at home.  

I don't know what to think about the Boks, but we're well overdue a win against them.

I'm optimistic.

I know what you're thinking, how can you argue with the logic I'm laying down here?

Ah marra if you believe...im with you. I take it back 7.5

Just for the record...im usually a very optimisitic guy...im just being realistic and im not sure we are quite at the level many think we are....i sincerely hope im wrong and im proven emphatically wrong.

The team I really want to beat is the Boks. The others we've seen at least recently, but the Boks need to feel harsh loss at Twickenham before we play them in the RWC (if we do)

propdavid_london wrote:I'm an old fashioned prop, so I only ever really get one of these problems (when I'm lingering on the wing)
But as a 12 - what is worse, conceding a try when you are boshed out of the way in a 1 on 1 straight up tackle or when a try is conceded and you werent near the oponent because your out of position!

Being out of position is bad but can sometimes not be avoided, like if you take a gamble and there are many plays designed to engineer a defender out of position. Missing a tackle that you were there for is just not acceptable ever

Thanks CJ - thats kind of where I am going. Twelvetrees missed such a sitter in the Autum internationals (he copped a bit of flack for it) but was still selected by the administration.
We will have to wait and see, but the feeling is that Eastmond has dropped a long way down the pecking order after is 3rd test 1st half display.

but the feeling is that Eastmond has dropped a long way down the pecking order after is 3rd test 1st half display

And this is my problem. One half of a game where even the so called stars of the team Farrell, Burrell, Launchbury, Brown etc were really quite poor (though personally i think it was just the AB's too good) and Eastmod is dropped.

Yet continuous bad or underwhelming performances from Ashton, Twlevetrees, etc and they are fine....

Well that isnt true of Ashton anymore. He is just the default filler when one of the hyped up and unproved 1st choices are unfit.

You'd think that if Wade doesnt get a test for England shortly then he will have to wait till after the WC.
He's certainly young enough to bide his time!
Ashton I am sure still has a few caps left in him - If he's on form then there are very few that would complain about his ability.

Did Farrell play in the 3rd test?

Prop David

The point is (as Bbeshocked keeps referring to ) Ashton has been playing excellently for his club. In Europe etc.

Makes me think more and more its the tactics and set up of the team thats the issue.

Wade may be turning into this generation's Sinbad. Fantastic on his day but mention England selection and he immediately gets injured for a few months.

Ashton. It may well be that the England system does not suit him, but is he so important that we need to adapt the system? or will the alternatives make more of the current one.

everything a side, we have to accept that our national competitions dominate and effect our international opportunities and possibilities.

many players who were knackered just 10/11 weeks ago are now lining up to play for their clubs at the first possible opportunity.

regardless of everything, unless we rebalance the domestic demands placed upon our elite players, we will continue to dramatically reduce our chances of international success which is of paramount importance to the future development of the game for all.

Wade may be turning into this generation's Sinbad. Fantastic on his day but mention England selection and he immediately gets injured for a few months

Sadly (whilst not quite ready for internatinal selection) Dom Barrow looks to be the forward version...

lostinwales wrote:Wade may be turning into this generation's Sinbad. Fantastic on his day but mention England selection and he immediately gets injured for a few months.

Ashton. It may well be that the England system does not suit him, but is he so important that we need to adapt the system? or will the alternatives make more of the current one.

as to wade I have to say i was monumentally annoyed that he was not selected sooner and staggeringly correct that it would only be a matter of time before he sucumbed to a career threatening injury.

my worst fear, and i'm sure i'm not alone, is that he will not achieve the poetry in motion of his previous performances........if he does then he MUST be selected immediately.

Ashtons poaching is all well and good, very good in fact, and i do believe his game has been effected by the selection of Farrell and game plan employed by bomber however, I'm hoping wade's class will shine through.

Am I seriously missing something in Wade, sharp little lad, had a belter of a first half of the season, but hasn't really done anything to put him above Ashton in my view.

Yarde is the up and coming winger to talk about,wade has had a small flash of form, but has struggled since, granted getting injured doesn't help, but he is small and if thats a factor in his injuries international rugby may not be the place for him.

Yarde is absolutely the upcoming winger...direct, pacy and whilst not a Savea or north size, he is powerful.

But Wade is a deifferent kind of winger...small, tricky, creative...like a Shane Williams, Jason Robinson, James Simpson Daniels etc. When fit he is class and i think him and club coleague Varndell were top of the prem scorers the season before last. He had a bad season last year though due to injuries....he barely played a game.

Hopefully he can stay fit this season and we will get a chance to see "IF" he can take that ability to the next level.

Neutralee wrote:Am I seriously missing something in Wade, sharp little lad, had a belter of a first half of the season, but hasn't really done anything to put him above Ashton in my view.

Yarde is the up and coming winger to talk about,wade has had a small flash of form, but has struggled since, granted getting injured doesn't help, but he is small and if thats a factor in his injuries international rugby may not be the place for him.

nonsense, wade has a brilliant rugby brain to go with his athletic talent. the injury was the typical flukey nasty.

Injury permitting he will be very special.

Neutralee wrote:Am I seriously missing something in Wade, sharp little lad, had a belter of a first half of the season, but hasn't really done anything to put him above Ashton in my view.

Yarde is the up and coming winger to talk about,wade has had a small flash of form, but has struggled since, granted getting injured doesn't help, but he is small and if thats a factor in his injuries international rugby may not be the place for him.

Yes you are missing something. He might not make it, but looking at his stuff in his brief showing for England and for Wasps, he looks a made international menace. Pace, step, acceleration, as good a tackler as you could expect for his size, improving his brain and positioning, can create a break from absolutely nothing, works hard, scores tons of tries and creates tries directly and indirectly too. For me the best wing in the AP by a mile

Small flash of form

Guess you didn't follow the season before then? Or before that? Or in fact every season Wade has had at every level he's been tested bar that one Lions test which showed abysmal man management and consideration of his players by Gatland...