Doing the inventory: England

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Doing the inventory: England

Edit: I will update with backs when I have time. This took longer than expected.

Hey guys,
 
This page is for discussing the England team and set up ahead of the run in to the RWC and please please add your comments whichever team you support. Also please feel free to add your own "inventories" for your own national teams for comparison's sake. It's very interesting to see other teams from their fans' points of view and also those Same fans' opinions on our team!

There is a lot of debate over what England's best side is, what players we have available and what needs to be sorted before the World Cup. As we are 1 year out in terms of competitive domestic and international play, I thought it would be great to go through every position and do a stock check of our current, RWC and future prospects there, highlighting our likely squad and first team as well as our strengths and weaknesses. This is all my own opinion so please feel free to add yours or correct me if I have stated something factually incorrect.


LH- this is indubitably an area of strength. Already ready for England we have Lions Alex Corbisiero (great scrummager, but injury concern, when fit has impressed hugely and looks potentially a world class player) and Mako Vunipola (had some issues recently in the scrum but young, improving and a devastating carrier, a real impact sub to use against weaker scrummaging nations), not to mention new Quins captain and one of the most improved international players last year, Joe Marler (hugely better in the scrum under the new laws, offers a lot in terms of work rate but seems to have lost the ball playing and running that originally won him plaudits at club level). The RWC squad will have all 3 in, which starting is hard to say and probably depends on Corbs' knees.

Behind these 3, we have several players who could step in at this moment in time and a good looking future.

Gloucester's Wood was once highly vaunted but appears to have lost a lot of form. Matt Mullan has played for England and has the work in the loose and solid set piece to be a good 4th choice. Alex Waller looked great last season for Saints and if Corbs isn't fit he will get a chance to shine again- he's also young and will get capped in my opinion. His brother Ethan looks promising (though possibly will move to tight head). Barrington has potential though probably not enough to get capped, and Balmain with his ability to play both sides of te scrum surely has a strong future. Nathan Catt is another I could see doing a job if needed and has a good future. Interestingly my searches reveal that Sale have a Moldovan prop, good to see less known rugby nations have players at this level!

All in all, I think we can say Marler, Corbs and Vunipola are tier one (all int class, one top int class and one possibly world class), with Catt, Mullan and Waller behind and Balmain possibly the future. Here we are strong

Hooker- hooker has been an area of huge worry for years, but we seem to be strong here right now. Established options are Hartley (in form, an exceptional player though with a tendency to pop up in the scrum and recent indiscretions, also adds leadership), Webber (looks in form, partnership with Wilson, has taken his chances well) and Lion Tom Youngs (worries re his size, hooking and throwing! But can get the throwing perfectly when in a groove, great at carrying and the breakdown, adds a dimension to our dynamic pack).

Behind these players, we have Paice, who doesn't impress me, George who needs gametime but has huge promise especially in tight carrying for Sarries (he can learn from literally the best in the premiership) and 3 players for Quins. Joe Gray is technically excellent but small and injury prone. Buchanan is powerful and a carrier but raw. Ward is a turnover and ripping machine with a backrow's linkman skills and a centre's pace but has awful days at the lineout and is also small. Any would be ok for me filling in as 4th for England.

Cowan Dickie, once a prop, has lots of potential but needs another season in the shirt for Exeter. Lindsay of Wasps has fallen off his huge potential and I can only hope he springs back.

Overall, Hartley, Webber and Youngs are a good trio, Ward and Gray are good backup and with LCD and George the future looks bright too, certainly better than a few years ago.

TH- this is a tricky area for every team. Currently Dan Cole is injured and was in poor form, but he has been a top level international TH with experience, good technique and an exceptional man in the breakdown. Dave Wilson has filled in nicely for him. Thomas doesn't not convince me hugely as 3rd choice but his cameos have been ok, and he should improve his scrummaging at Bath though may also lose his place playing regularly in the premiership behind Wilson.

We have mentioned Ethan Waller as one for the future. Jake Cooper Wooley of Wasps, who started as a LH is another. Harden and Knight have struggled in a weak Gloucester pack. This looks improved next seasons but this might stop them from getting gametime. Newcastle offer one for the present, the impressive Kieron Brookes, and the future with the raw but talented Wilson. Quins' PDJ looks a spent force but Sinckler looks certain for a cap with his quick learning and strong, pacey carrying. Collier is another Quins option maybe a little less talented but closer to ready.

Cole and Wilson, in uncertain order, will play. The 3rd choice is more open, Thomas could keep it but I see Brookes or Collier leapfrogging him. In the future, we should be ok with JCW, Sinckler and "little" Wilson.

Locks- lots of debate over our starting duo. For me it is still Lawes (much improved over the last season, and fulfilling his potential at last, with soft hands and athleticism) and Launchbury (essentially an extra flanker as well as a lock), closely followed by Attwood to add a power option and Parling for his experience and lineout skills. I can see the argument to start Launchbury with whichever of the above had his club mate at hooker, but as this will be Hartley that changes nothing.

Saracens' Botha has caps and though shouldn't be near starting would not let England down in a crisis. Same goes for Robson of Quins, and Day of Saints is very underrated. None are particularly exciting though. Tigers have a blessing of riches here, with Slater (also a 6) very promising and IMO next in line, but Kitchener also highly rated for a different sort of lock. Deacon's time is last but he would still be acceptable if needed. George Skivington is IMO very underrated and is a player I'd like to see get a chance though I suspect he won't. Schofield is unlikely to add to his caps. Palmer is too old but could step in if in dire need, and Savage looks a good player with a potential cap for me.


For the future, though Launch is young, Matthews has yet to fulfil his promise but looks on track after the end of last seasons for Quins. Will Carrick Smlth is a monster that I know little else about. Stookes has potential as does George Kruis, but Dom Barrow possibly has the most of all, and Itoje in the longer term looks a certain cap.


I'd say Launch + Lawes, Parling and Attwood followed by Kitchener and Slater, with Kruis and Barrow as the future.

6- an interesting Position with many roles. Tom Wood is an excellent 6 who works with our 7, and a good leader. Behind him, James Haskell finally looks the real deal. Tom Johnson is solid but unexceptional, an option certainly.

Callum Clarke is loved by Lancaster but not by some fans. I think he had a great season last year but is not the player to bring England forward. Matt Garvey is NOT loved by Lancaster but is exactly te option at 6 or lock we could do with. In his absence (we assume), Slater could fill in at 6. Kruis is a decent 6 but a better lock, and Wray is good but not enough to cap. If Croft can come back well from injury and stay fit he adds something no other englAnd forward can (real attacking running and a great lineout) and is a shoe in for the squad, lack of physicality or not. Gibson has also looked very good for Tigers and deserves a shot at some point but also lacks power. Tom Guest is too old now to get his first cap realistically much to my dismay. Gaskell frankly doesn't impress me much at all. Welch and Wilson at Falcons look good players but unlikely to feature. Carl Fearns adds power and isn't shabby at the breakdown and should be considered too.

In terms of the future, Charlie Blair Walker is an exciting player, and S Jones will surely get capped at 6 or 7, otherwise I struggle to see many young but not academy players in this position. Moriarity could break through if his pack gives him the platform.

7- here Robshaw stands alone with Armitage in exile. Armitage's carrying and scavenging would be useful but not enough to set a dangerous precedent. Robshaw is a jack of all trades, master of all trades though sadly I expect him to go underrated his entire career. After him comes Kvesic who has had good spells, and offers a blend of breakdown and tackling but had a poor season at Gloucester. He will hope his new-look pack can help him out because he is talented.

At Saints, Clarke and wood can play 7. Dowson didn't look up to int level at all. Will Fraser has genuine talent and I hope he can stay fit as he is both present and future. Luke Wallace will get gametime at 6 and when Robshaw is away. He's a great ball player and fetcher but easily caught out of position. Scaysborough is a solid 7 but unlikely to get a look in, and the same applies for Betty, Seymour and Lund. Guy Thompson impresses me as a utility back row but not enough, Rowan looks an option for the future.  Andy Saull seems to have fallen off the horizon, and I can't see him fighting back in.


I think Wood, Haskell and Robshaw are certains here. After that it becomes hard. Slater can play 6. I would love Garvey but doubt we'll see him. After that, Fraser and Kvesic and maybe Wallace at 7 (Rowan and Jones future options) and Fearns, Gibson and Croft at 6 (Kruis and Moriarity maybe the future here). I thought we'd be stronger than we are at flanker.

8- in Billy Vunipola and Morgan we have 2 great options at 8, both powerful though with different carrying specialties. Haskell adds extra cover here too.

After these two, we are better here than I thought. Dickinson is solid. Easter is old but could fill in come the RWC in his current state (ie phenomenal). Crane is back on track with Waldrom ( no thanks) gone. Jack Clifford is the future. Fearns can play here and Burgess may be trialled here. Guest is getting on but good enough, ditto Narraway, York has fallen off the radar. And Ewers is raw but talented.


I would say Billy and Morgan helped by Haskell, with Ewers next, maybe Crane and Easter in an emergency. Clifford for the future, plus Billy will be playing for years to come.



So that gives a pack of

Marler, Corbs, Vunipola
Youngs, Hartley, Webber
Cole, Wilson, Brookes
Lawes,Launchbury, Parling, Attwood
Wood, Haskell, Croft
Robshaw, Fraser
Vunipola, Morgan


The backs:

England's backs have long been seen as an issue- with a dearth of flair, and thanks to the likes of Andy Robinson, a graveyard where the careers of promising young tyros chucked in the deep end go to die (I will never forgive the way he ruined Tait and Allen). However, a few key issues aside, I honestly feel we are stronger than most realise here and certainly stronger than any time in the past 10 years, a few fantastic players from that period aside.


9- not long ago, with Care lacking consistency and maturity and Youngs falling out of form, this was a big worry. However, Care seems to have grown into the player he should have been, fantastic for Quins, bringing that form to England and improving his pass, kick and mind to go with his high tempo and playmaking. Similarly, Youngs looked to be refinding his form at the end of last season and looking like the player we thought could be the best 9 in the world. Behind them, Lee Dickson isn't very exciting but he is solid enough for England and had a great season for Saints.

Behind these 3, Wrigglesworth is not a particularly flashy choice but he is an excellent tactical 9 and I would happily see him play in white. His club mate Spencer looks a long term option, with a similarly good kicking game. Joel Hodgson has gone down the pecking order by moving to Saints but with his skillset and 2 good 9s to learn from is another to watch out for. I don't know much about Harrison, but Karl Dickson at Quins is a solid player who could fill in if needed (not on last season's form though) and Burns and Stuart are ones to watch but need to add cleverness to their pace. Chiefs have 3 solid 9s in Lewis, Chudley and Thomas though I don't know enough about them to say if they could get caps. I don't hugely rate Young but Cook at Bath looks promising and Robson at Glaws too though he'll need to get ahead of Laidlaw, who I think is a silly buy for the club. Simpson offers a lot but also has too many flaws (like his pass...) for me to pick him for England.

Here we can easily say care, Youngs and Dickson, IMO followed by Wriggles and with Cook, Robson and Spencer my picks for the future.


10- more contentious here. Farrell, with his kicking and defence, is clearly the favourite here and has improved his attack but is still never going to be a Spencer or Larkham, and there are rumours he might be tried at 12 in the AIs. Behind him, it's a close 3 way race with Flood taking himself out of the picture. Burns had an awful season, but promises so much in terms of attack and using his backs, and if he can get ahead of Williams he will have a better platform at Tigers. Cipriani has lost the unplayable verve he once had but has also improved his temperament, defence and control and frankly looks the most balanced 10 we have in my eyes, whether he is trusted by others is another question. Ford has shown great tactical kicking and passing but poor goal kicking and is rather small for international rugby. Picking our 10s is key and is a real challenge.

Behind these players, Myler is solid. Hodgson has retired but Goode looked good in his cameos at 10 for Sarries and some have questioned the decision to ever move him from 10 to 15. Billy Burns is too young now but looks even better than his brother and Slade also looks a top quality player. Andy Goode is too old, and Geraghty seems to have fallen off the track that saw him shine so brightly in that one 6N campaign. Clegg too seems to have lost his touch and gone from flakey but a good attacker at Quins to a kicker with no flair at Falcons. I've heard good things about young Joe Ford. Barkley is past it IMO.

Farrell plus 2 of Cips, Ford and Burns, probably Ford and Burns though I think that's not the best call. For the future, mini Burns and Slade look most promising.


12- our biggest problem. Twelvetrees has looked great in spells but subpar in others. Eastmond with the opportunity to attack also looks class but was found massively defensively lacking in t3 in NZ. Burrell can play 12 but with Manu at 13? Can Manu play 12? Farrell? No easy decision here. Barritt has been a stalwart when given the chance but with Farrell at 10 and Manu at 13, that attack just seems far too blunt.


After the current squad members, there are other options. I hugely rate Allen and think he really does deserve another chance (damn you Robinson!). He has the passing (though his role for Tigers doesn't use it that often), the running lines and the defensive leadership to be what we need. However, it looks too late for Allen as he would have been picked before now were it to happen. Chris Bell is another solid clubman who I doubt raises enough pulses to get a chance. Burgess could come in at 12 but until he plays a minute of Union there is no way I can see him playing for England. Devoto looks a future star though. I don't know much about Guy Armitage at all, I'm sure Pete can enlighten me. Sam Hill I have seen and he impresses me a lot. Casson has lost a lot of form for Quins and whilst a fit JTH is vital for us and should have the power and offload to do well for England, his few caps didn't exactly inspire. And he's never ever fit. May at Welsh is ok but not an int. The last centre who springs to mind is Stephenson, for the future at least.


12 is hard but let's stick with 36 and Eastmond, with Burrell predominantly a 13 but an option. I'd love to see Allen there but we won't. For the future, Stephenson and Hill for me but I wouldn't be surprised or upset to see Devoto there.

13- Manu Tuilagi is, for his flaws (that strangely seem to materialise for England- he passes well at Tigers), a lethal player who must be in the squad. He made Conrad Smith look like a schoolboy. Burrell was poor in NZ but had a storming 6N and deserves to be there too.

After this, it becomes harder. Bath's Devoto could play 13, and hopefully Banahan is a no. Joseph looked promising but has dropped off. Tompkins is another for the future, and Tomkins didn't look international class when given the chance and I think is back in league. Can't see Waldouck making it either. Quins have some talented young centres in Sloan (probably won't make it) and Marchant (could do in the future, but very young) and Hopper impresses some. He's too flakey for me and Lowe, if he reaches his previous form from before this horrible injury, is a real possibility, underrated in attack and defence. Daly has IMO all the weapons to play 13 and hopefully will start there and not at 15 for Wasps. Trinder is another good player but needs to stay fit. The others at Falcons etc don't look like options to me.

So manu and Burrell then. I'd have Lowe and Daly next, then Daly, Tompkins and Devoto as the future.

Wing- we have had issues here but I actually think the options are good and varied. We are just low on time to pick them properly. Yarde, now playing with Brown at Quins, has nailed one shirt down with his attack. The other main contenders are Ashton, who had a good club season but may have run out of lives, May, who can't seem to run straight and fulfill his promise, Nowell, who improved through the 6N but doesn't score many tries (adds a lot else though, similar to Watson, another option) and Wade who is untested thanks to injury but looks magic to me and must get a run out frankly. Then FBs like Foden are also in the mix.

Saints also have Elliott, who is understated and does his basics very well. I think he could do well alla Cueto, who himself is too old now days. Thompstone doesn't quite look up to this level and Benjamin needs to prove he is still the player he looked before injury. Strettle does it all at club level but has struggled for England. Williams will never get capped after the B word, Monye has lost his pace but Charlie Walker looks like he might be a future England winger with his pace and ability to play 13 and 15. Arnott and Jess aren't quite there, neither is Brady. Cato hasn't fulfilled his potential but Kiribirige looks the real deal for Falcons in a few years. Ojo has missed the boat, and Lewington looks good but not great (don't know how James Short has been doing at Irish, looked good at Sarries). Sharples has fallen from favour but is still a great attacker if we need more in attack, JSD is too old now. Woodburn is quick but I don't know much about him. Can't see Banahan getting another chance, and Rocky is on the list for the Saxons but I think unlikely to make the full step up. Earle looks lethal as a future winger. Stegmann and Sam Smith are too flawed in defence without the pure danger to counter this. Finally Varndell is a long shot but still a menace to defences at AP level.


I'd go with Yarde and Wade, with Watson, Nowell and May as back ups for now.

All are young but other youngsters to step up are Earle, Walker and Kiribirige.


15- Mike Brown has the shirt if he can approach his AI and 6N form of last year when he was possibly the best in the World. Behind him Foden is proven int class but in my eyes has never neared his form of 3-4 years ago. Goode needs pace outside him but adds a dimension to how England can play. And May, daly, Nowell, Watson can all play FB too. It is a global area of strength and every club has an option here.

With Abendanon leaving and Watson a winger, Bath can offer the solid Luke Arscott. Gloucester have lost (once England vaunted) Olly Morgan but Cook looks promising at 15. Wasps now have the decent option of Miller if Daly (please!!!) stays at 13. Irish have Homer, who i see mostly as a kicker. Catterick and Tait probably not good enough at Falcons. Tom Arscott very underrated and wouldn't be too out of place. Chiefs will probably start Nowell at 15. Sarries have Goode but Ransom is ok too, and Welsh have some players I don't really know much about. Pennell, loyally staying at Wuss despite being in the NZ tour squad, is utterly class and I hope he gets to come back up. After MB for Quins is Chisholm who is dangerously pacy (but has been injured a fair bit) and OLH who wants to play 15s like it's 7s. Matt Tait is looking like the player e could have been if not for Robinson and injuries again but is still made of the same glass as Warburton and Pocock.

FBs have to be Brown, Foden, Goode, with the wingers as back ups and maybe Pennell if he goes on loan. For the future, Cook, maybe Earle and Watson look grand.


So all in all the backs look like:

Care, Youngs
Farrell, Burns,
Twelvetrees, (Eastmond)
Manu, Burrell,
Wade, Yarde, Watson (Nowell, May)
Brown, Goode, Foden

I'll comment on the overall situation, plan etc tomorrow.

In fairness what has he done against the top nations at test level? That's the unknown about Wade because he hasn't played enough test rugby. Look at what Fekitoa has done at S15 level and then compare that at test level.

That is not even similar to what Neutralee was saying. He was talking about what Wade had already shown or not at the levels at which he has played, and said he doesn't look to offer more than Ashton. Now, Ashton has huge strength that have paid off at Club and England level but Wade, though untested which is something NOBODY here would argue with, has entirely different strengths and has positively shone throughout his time in the AP and in the few opportunities he has had. He is also actually IMO a considerably better defender than Ashton or Yarde and demonstrably creates tries for his fellow wingers and carried that over into his few caps. The fact that he is untested against the best nations has nothing whatsoever to do with the fact that he certainly looks special at te levels he has played

My point is I don't really pay much attention to what Wade has done below test level. Easter was a great club player like Borthwick but there it stayed. I don't watch club rugby enough in your part of the world so I'm only interested at test level and form at club level often doesn't mean much at test level. Until Wade plays enough games at test level he is an unknown. What he has achieved at club level matters little to me.

I personally contend with the Easter point, but I'll admit there is some bias there. He was much maligned. And your point, whilst accurate and fair, still has little bearing to what I said

I'm sure you'll get to know about him soon though

I know of whom you speak but my point wasn't in relation to what he said. My point is only this: Wade at test level is an unknown quantity.

True, though hopefully he'll soon get a chance to prove he has it (or doesn't)

Pretty much everyones on the same page We d like to see a fit on form Wade get a run of 5 or 6 England games to show us what he s got.

ChequeredJersey wrote:That is not even similar to what Neutralee was saying. He was talking about what Wade had already shown or not at the levels at which he has played, and said he doesn't look to offer more than Ashton. Now, Ashton has huge strength that have paid off at Club and England level but Wade, though untested which is something NOBODY here would argue with, has entirely different strengths and has positively shone throughout his time in the AP and in the few opportunities he has had. He is also actually IMO a considerably better defender than Ashton or Yarde and demonstrably creates tries for his fellow wingers and carried that over into his few caps. The fact that he is untested against the best nations has nothing whatsoever to do with the fact that he certainly looks special at te levels he has played

What exactly are you talking about? Whats the title of this thread? It isn't Wasps; doing the inventory!

Like I said he has shown small flashes of real quality, but that is for club, he hasn't shown anything on the international stage whatsoever, and the Lions game wasn't fair on him, despite being poor there too.

Players flash world class for club all the time, Varndell, Ffion Carr, Tom James and Tim Visser have all been top try scorers in their leagues regularly, but are any international quality?

When you say ' said he doesn't look to offer more than Ashton. Now, Ashton has huge strength that have paid off at Club and England level but Wade, though untested which is something NOBODY here would argue with, has entirely different strengths and has positively shone throughout his time in the AP' what exactly do you mean?
I consider Ashtons experience of international rugby, his try rate at international rugby, his finishing ability, his size, strength and threat around the park, whereas you have disregarded all of that to claim Wade offers more, despite admitting he is untested at international level. Call me old fashioned but if I'm going into a RWC playoff game tomorrow, I am picking Ashton 100% of the time, would you select Wade?

Also...

'The fact that he is untested against the best nations has nothing whatsoever to do with the fact that he certainly looks special at te levels he has played' I scored 29 tries in one season in the U14's league, looking 'special' was my speciality, does this mean I'm a better option than Ashton also?

The point is I will judge Wade when he isn't playing against either weakened or everyday club opposition, I've seen him score spectaculars against that old guy from Saints, and I've seen him miss tackles against squad fillers, he looks good in small doses, but as of yet hasn't had a full consistent season has he? Are his injuries poor luck, or because of his size? Once he's on the park against the best in the world in the HC or an England shirt he can be judged on his performances there, but running in tries at club level is no indicator of international quality whatsoever!

Actually he has 5 tries vs various Barbarians though they aren't real caps, and created 2 tries against Argentina in his only chance at International level.

At Club level, and you were the one to allude to it, he has shown consistent form whenever he has been fit and has 185 points in 60 matches for Wasps, a pretty darn good strike rate, not including what he has created for the likes of Varndell.

He has definitely had a good full season: he was Players' Player of the Year and the Young Player of the Year and joint top try scorer with 13 tries (plus 5 in Europe) in 2012-13...

That was his second season and last season he was also excellent in short burst partially because he was manacled (creating space for Varndell, when he was fit) and partially because he was unlucky with injuries.

If your point was that he was unproven at Int level I'd agree entirely but you were trying to push inconsistency on him at AP level that he has clearly not been guilty of.

He also scored 9 tries in his debut season...

Which was 2nd in the premiership and despite only playing in 15 games...

Will be interesting to see how he does in Europe

ChequeredJersey wrote:Actually he has 5 tries vs various Barbarians though they aren't real caps, and created 2 tries against Argentina in his only chance at International level.

At Club level, and you were the one to allude to it, he has shown consistent form whenever he has been fit and has 185 points in 60 matches for Wasps, a pretty darn good strike rate, not including what he has created for the likes of Varndell.

He has definitely had a good full season: he was Players' Player of the Year and the Young Player of the Year and joint top try scorer with 13 tries (plus 5 in Europe) in 2012-13...

That was his second season and last season he was also excellent in short burst partially because he was manacled (creating space for Varndell, when he was fit) and partially because he was unlucky with injuries.

If your point was that he was unproven at Int level I'd agree entirely but you were trying to push inconsistency on him at AP level that he has clearly not been guilty of.

Well you say that but he was inconsistent last season was he not? Like I said, he has shown flashes of good stuff, not enough to warrant an international spot yet, and he is clearly behind Ashton and Yarde in the pecking order who I personally would be seeing as my incumbants going into the RWC.

I like the kid, but he is totally untested at international level, and there probably isn't enough time to develop him before the RWC.

ChequeredJersey wrote:He also scored 9 tries in his debut season...

Which was 2nd in the premiership and despite only playing in 15 games...

Will be interesting to see how he does in Europe

We get it your a fan!

Granted he is untested. As I've said above, hopefully he will stay fit and play this Autumn. It may well be that his lack of size means he can just be bullied out of games and to be fair, he wouldn't be my first choice defending the line against Savea or North...

Are you sure you re thinking of th right player? Wade has been one of the most consistant wingers in the league and if fit will start the AIs. He was about to be chosen 12 months ago and was ready then for his chance. No one is guaranteed to succeed but he s certainly got all the tools to do well.

No 7&1/2 wrote:Are you sure you re thinking of th right player? Wade has been one of the most consistant wingers in the league and if fit will start the AIs. He was about to be chosen 12 months ago and was ready then for his chance. No one is guaranteed to succeed but he s certainly got all the tools to do well.

Except size I agree. But having the tools and stepping up to international rugby are 2 different things.

Which is what the majority would say.He deserves a chance he ll get a chance and personally I think he ll take it.

No 7&1/2 wrote:Which is what the majority would say.He deserves a chance he ll get a chance and personally I think he ll take it.

He should get a shot, I would personally be looking at him as a possible bench option for the RWC, not sure the times there to develop him as a starter

I'm not sure starting wingers particularly need much time to get into the system, especially as Wade has been training with the squad for a couple of years and was due to start last year. I would happily put a fiver on him being a starting winger for the RWC

ChequeredJersey wrote:I'm not sure starting wingers particularly need much time to get into the system, especially as Wade has been training with the squad for a couple of years and was due to start last year. I would happily put a fiver on him being a starting winger for the RWC

I was thinking more physically, and experience wise, has he played a top tier nation at int level yet? What is he 22? with 4/5 caps?

For me Ashton is the starter, you know what you get with him, he has played Aus and Wales numerous times, and scored good tries against both.

Yarde could be the next big thing, he is just electric! HAs toured and shone against the very best.

I don't think may, Sharples or Strettle are any good tbh

Doubt Ashton is going to be strongly considered unless a last resort he s been poor for a long while now.

Our wingers are so frustrating - (to me) never quite seeming to deliver consistently when it counts. I don't know if that's because our back play as a whole always seems so laboured and rushed. I do hope that Wade and Yarde step up and make a difference. I can still see Ashton featuring for a while though.

I disagree about Ashton, he is a good international player, and given a sniff finishes. I'd put him on par with someone like Cuthbert of Wales, both can be devestating if not a little defencively weak.

I feel for Englands wingers, they take a lot of flak for some reason, despite Englands midfeild being extremely 1 dimensional for years. Barrit, Tuilagi, Burell, Eastmond do not make for fluid wing play. They are good at what they do, and all have been succesfull in their roles, but they don't allow for great attacking wide play.

You look at wing form and play and you can directly relate it to the 13 in a lot of cases, Savea - Smith, North - Davies, Bowe - BOD. Without without a decent distributor in the centre there is just no chance for the wingers!

Yarde is virtually ready, and looks class! Ashton is good enough for int rugby, and will finish every time, they just need a gameplan and personell to allow themto shine.

What has Ashton done for England in the last 18 months which has impressed you?

Well for a start I don't buy into the whole tabloid hero to zero garbage!

Ashton hasn't exactly been on blistering form but show me a man in the English backline who has? Brown had a good 6N at FB, but has returned to his mediocre form again. And Tuilagi is a powerhouse for 2/3 games a year.

Ashton is as good as anything England have, and well he and other wingers are being hung out to dry by Englands poor defencive work, and inability to create out wide.

So are you saying he hasn t impressed you? Im not talking about whether you ve been impressed by the back 3 although Brown was Englands man of the AIs and player of the 6Ns and as you yourself said Yarde looks class. What have you seen from Ashton to suggest he s the man in an England shirt in the last 18 months?

Ashtons solid, he's an international quality winger, I didn't buy into the world class bull the media hyped himup to be, and I don't buy into the no mark image he is currently being seen as.

He is proven, tested and experienced.

It's not about what I've seen from Ashton really, it's what I've seen of his competitors, and the truth is there isn't much behind him. may, Strettle and Sharples aren't good enough, Nowell is too raw, and Wade is untested.

Wades actually a technically decent defender, he just hasn't the bulk to be good at it, I think Shane Williams comparisons are pretty apt, although Williams failed initially and went through a drastic development to reinvent himself.

As I said, Wade is probably 3rd in line to a wing spot, I just don't think he's a real contender for the shirt for the RWC.

Proven yes but I dont think anyone can live on past glories for long. Ashton has had 2 big opportunities when he s got the shirt (or kept) due to other players injury and hasnt done enough to cement himself. What I think you should be saying is you would nt give Wade a run of games now rather than he s prob 3rd in line as its pretty clear Lancaster wants to try him.

But I get the feeling Lancaster wants to try 100 more guys before nailing down his first choice backline, including experimenting with the wing slot!

Like I said Wade looks sharp at club level, let him get a shot at int level before proclaiming how great he is, I think he's a risk because of his size, but then thats just me.

Yes let whoever is saying he ll be a definite success wait. As to size Ashton has shown its more of the size of the heart in the dog.

should be fight rather than heart but im obviously in a cuddly mood.

Having just finished watching the Saracens game have to say Wade looked the pick of the wingers for me and did nt look small for his second. Ashton took his well with Daly out of position but did little else. Have to admit although id written him off for England Strettle looked v good. 2 of his tries could have gone either way but good all round performance as well.

Other good English performances from Launchbury Farrell when he came on Barritt Simpson bar 1 really bad intercept pass and er Nathan Hughes.

The only area for Wade to work on is his defensive positioning.

As the calls what has he done....this is about the England Inventory....potential England players thus I would say what he has done for Wasps IS totally relevant. Last season he had a nasty injury...and missed pretty much all the season. The one before he was top or second top try scorer.
He scored 2 today I think.

He hasn't done ANYTHING at international level because he hasn't had a chance yet. But you get the chance by being fit and scoring lots of tries for Wasps.

If he stays fit he will be in the AI squad and we will see how he goes.
But he MUST work on his positioning.

Other good English performances from Launchbury Farrell when he came on Barritt Simpson bar 1 really bad intercept pass and er Nathan Hughes.

Absolutely.

Im sorry I go on about a bit more size and muscle etc..I probably bore you all but I was interested to see Launchbury looked like he had put a bit of beef on...yet he kept all his mobility and work rate. He was all over the rucks etc. Great to see.

Also I really would be disappointed to see Nathan Hughes get picked for England. He's a beast but he's only here on residency rules and Samoa or Fiji would love a player of his ability.
We have Billy V and Ben Morgan (though after their result today im not sure)

He was at fault for Strettles 2nd although I thought Healy pointing to him for the last was pretty harsh to say the least! 1 criticism from England in the past is that they discarded the attacking players too quickly for initial defensive lapses. It surely cant happen with Wade if he is as effective for Eng as heis with Wasps going forward. Positioning you can teach what skill he has you d spend 50 years trying to teach!

Morgan was poor Billy just an average game. If people qualify and want to play I think they should be considered altho the qualifying period is too short for me.

I agree we discard people to quick. Varndell was another example of that.

You need attacking players that scare the opposition. YOu can work on their defence and mae cover plans for them through the game.

just an a side;

according to last years stats (though i can't see anything up to date and he certainly looked a lot bigger today) nathan hughes is the same size height/weight 255 lbs 6'5'' as one sam burgess.

if this is for real (?) then as an idle fan it is going to make some very interesting viewing if he ever plays 12......bring on the lv cup i say

Separately, and I probably knew this though it struck me yesterday, how similar and how wonderfully psychologically crucial the next 5 English and welsh internationals are - obviously culminating in Cardiff 6th feb 1st game of the 6nations.

November 2014
Sat 8  New Zealand tour  England v New Zealand, Twickenham    
Sat 15  South Africa tour  England v South Africa, Twickenham    
Sat 22  Samoa tour  England v Samoa, Twickenham    
Sat 29  Australia tour / Cook Cup  England v Australia, Twickenham    
February 2015
Fri 6  Six Nations  Wales v England, Millennium Stadium
20:05 local, 20:05 GMT  


November 2014
Sat 8  Australia tour  Wales v Australia, Millennium Stadium
14:30 local, 14:30 GMT    
Sat 15  Fiji tour  Wales v Fiji, Millennium Stadium
14:30 local, 14:30 GMT    
Sat 22  New Zealand tour  Wales v New Zealand, Millennium Stadium
17:30 local, 17:30 GMT    
Sat 29  South Africa tour  Wales v South Africa, Millennium Stadium
14:30 local, 14:30 GMT    
February 2015
Fri 6  Six Nations  Wales v England, Millennium Stadium
20:05 local, 20:05 GMT

Of course you can never know how these things will pan out, however surely with the WC group of death and all that this makes these next few games tremendously intriguing?

From a northern perspective I would love to see us shock and overcome our southern cousins (?) and though the odds are against us, it will be worth a few quid all the same.

If people are desperate for a bigger robust 6 Ewers may well be worth a look if he carries on as he started yesterday albeit against a Welsh barbarians team.

He performed like that last season aswell 7.5 which is why he was in the EPS. His performances however died off as Exeters on a whole did from the middle of the season.

But on top form he would be a cracking choice for a 6. Big aggressive, hard carrying, big tackler...and Zimbabwean so continues the foreigners in the team

Haskell also had a good game playing at 7.

And though i didnt see the game i can only assume Tom Wood probably had a good game judging by the Saints scoreline.

In my head I've always considered him an 8, although I know he's had a bit of cross over. With Waldrom there now you would think he'll get a lot more opportunity at 6 to push his case. May be useful as obviously can cover both. I am a self confessed fan of Englands back row though!

Yeah he was always considered an 8...but i always thought he had the skill set to be a very good 6.

Time will tell.

Wing was certainly in the spot light this weekend.

Got to say the winger I was most disappointed in was Yarde. He was kept mostly quiet by Short who looked brighter of the two - LI vs Quins.

Sarries vs Wasps - was a try fest for the wingers - Strettle 3, Ashton 1,Wade 2.

Defensive issues are something that we will always have with a Yarde,Wade or Ashton.

Strettle looked excellent. And Heally wasnt wrong when he said he could very much do a god job for England.

I agree defensive weaknesses come with those....but you manage around that to get the best out of their attacking skills.

Club form is different to internationals.

Strettle is one of the best wingers in my opinion at AP level currently but seems to find it tougher both in the HC and at international level.

Wade is an unknown quantity at international level but should be given an opportunity there.

Yes but to get any kind of recognition yu need to be doing the bread and butter stuff...ie scoring tries for your club. He does that regularly...and in all fairness he's never had a consistant run out for England like say Ashton or someone has.

Strettle is 31. I like him but I am not sure he would be the right choice for England. I wouldn't say he suits Lancaster's way of using wingers.

I keep on saying this I know - being a winger in an England side with Lancaster in charge is tough. Tougher than it should be.

I think his general play has always been top notch or there abouts. I do worry about his finishing at the highest level. Even with his 3 tries on another day he could have finished with 1. He does seem to give the defenders a more of a chance than they should get.

Think Lancasters focus is coming more and more to the backline. Yarde seems to have started ok. Nowell and May were getting chances and not taknig the right options. Will be interesting to see what Wade does. Lancaster hasn't been blessed with top drawer wingers.

But Beshocked...no winger has nailed the spot. The World Cup is this season.

If he's firing and fits well in this current England set up better than Ashton or whoever has then he will make a good fit regardless of his age. After the World Cup we can try to find a better fit.

Its Clear that Ashton doest fit Lancasters tactics or whatever...so need to look elsewhere...and theres not a whole host of wingers in line?

Yarde, Wade, Watson?, Strettle, Sharples?...

7.5 i think Nowell is a FB...

I think Nowell will move to full back eventually. I think he'll be play on the wing this season for Exeter and he does have something about him.