Doing the inventory: England

First topic message reminder :

Doing the inventory: England

Edit: I will update with backs when I have time. This took longer than expected.

Hey guys,
 
This page is for discussing the England team and set up ahead of the run in to the RWC and please please add your comments whichever team you support. Also please feel free to add your own "inventories" for your own national teams for comparison's sake. It's very interesting to see other teams from their fans' points of view and also those Same fans' opinions on our team!

There is a lot of debate over what England's best side is, what players we have available and what needs to be sorted before the World Cup. As we are 1 year out in terms of competitive domestic and international play, I thought it would be great to go through every position and do a stock check of our current, RWC and future prospects there, highlighting our likely squad and first team as well as our strengths and weaknesses. This is all my own opinion so please feel free to add yours or correct me if I have stated something factually incorrect.


LH- this is indubitably an area of strength. Already ready for England we have Lions Alex Corbisiero (great scrummager, but injury concern, when fit has impressed hugely and looks potentially a world class player) and Mako Vunipola (had some issues recently in the scrum but young, improving and a devastating carrier, a real impact sub to use against weaker scrummaging nations), not to mention new Quins captain and one of the most improved international players last year, Joe Marler (hugely better in the scrum under the new laws, offers a lot in terms of work rate but seems to have lost the ball playing and running that originally won him plaudits at club level). The RWC squad will have all 3 in, which starting is hard to say and probably depends on Corbs' knees.

Behind these 3, we have several players who could step in at this moment in time and a good looking future.

Gloucester's Wood was once highly vaunted but appears to have lost a lot of form. Matt Mullan has played for England and has the work in the loose and solid set piece to be a good 4th choice. Alex Waller looked great last season for Saints and if Corbs isn't fit he will get a chance to shine again- he's also young and will get capped in my opinion. His brother Ethan looks promising (though possibly will move to tight head). Barrington has potential though probably not enough to get capped, and Balmain with his ability to play both sides of te scrum surely has a strong future. Nathan Catt is another I could see doing a job if needed and has a good future. Interestingly my searches reveal that Sale have a Moldovan prop, good to see less known rugby nations have players at this level!

All in all, I think we can say Marler, Corbs and Vunipola are tier one (all int class, one top int class and one possibly world class), with Catt, Mullan and Waller behind and Balmain possibly the future. Here we are strong

Hooker- hooker has been an area of huge worry for years, but we seem to be strong here right now. Established options are Hartley (in form, an exceptional player though with a tendency to pop up in the scrum and recent indiscretions, also adds leadership), Webber (looks in form, partnership with Wilson, has taken his chances well) and Lion Tom Youngs (worries re his size, hooking and throwing! But can get the throwing perfectly when in a groove, great at carrying and the breakdown, adds a dimension to our dynamic pack).

Behind these players, we have Paice, who doesn't impress me, George who needs gametime but has huge promise especially in tight carrying for Sarries (he can learn from literally the best in the premiership) and 3 players for Quins. Joe Gray is technically excellent but small and injury prone. Buchanan is powerful and a carrier but raw. Ward is a turnover and ripping machine with a backrow's linkman skills and a centre's pace but has awful days at the lineout and is also small. Any would be ok for me filling in as 4th for England.

Cowan Dickie, once a prop, has lots of potential but needs another season in the shirt for Exeter. Lindsay of Wasps has fallen off his huge potential and I can only hope he springs back.

Overall, Hartley, Webber and Youngs are a good trio, Ward and Gray are good backup and with LCD and George the future looks bright too, certainly better than a few years ago.

TH- this is a tricky area for every team. Currently Dan Cole is injured and was in poor form, but he has been a top level international TH with experience, good technique and an exceptional man in the breakdown. Dave Wilson has filled in nicely for him. Thomas doesn't not convince me hugely as 3rd choice but his cameos have been ok, and he should improve his scrummaging at Bath though may also lose his place playing regularly in the premiership behind Wilson.

We have mentioned Ethan Waller as one for the future. Jake Cooper Wooley of Wasps, who started as a LH is another. Harden and Knight have struggled in a weak Gloucester pack. This looks improved next seasons but this might stop them from getting gametime. Newcastle offer one for the present, the impressive Kieron Brookes, and the future with the raw but talented Wilson. Quins' PDJ looks a spent force but Sinckler looks certain for a cap with his quick learning and strong, pacey carrying. Collier is another Quins option maybe a little less talented but closer to ready.

Cole and Wilson, in uncertain order, will play. The 3rd choice is more open, Thomas could keep it but I see Brookes or Collier leapfrogging him. In the future, we should be ok with JCW, Sinckler and "little" Wilson.

Locks- lots of debate over our starting duo. For me it is still Lawes (much improved over the last season, and fulfilling his potential at last, with soft hands and athleticism) and Launchbury (essentially an extra flanker as well as a lock), closely followed by Attwood to add a power option and Parling for his experience and lineout skills. I can see the argument to start Launchbury with whichever of the above had his club mate at hooker, but as this will be Hartley that changes nothing.

Saracens' Botha has caps and though shouldn't be near starting would not let England down in a crisis. Same goes for Robson of Quins, and Day of Saints is very underrated. None are particularly exciting though. Tigers have a blessing of riches here, with Slater (also a 6) very promising and IMO next in line, but Kitchener also highly rated for a different sort of lock. Deacon's time is last but he would still be acceptable if needed. George Skivington is IMO very underrated and is a player I'd like to see get a chance though I suspect he won't. Schofield is unlikely to add to his caps. Palmer is too old but could step in if in dire need, and Savage looks a good player with a potential cap for me.


For the future, though Launch is young, Matthews has yet to fulfil his promise but looks on track after the end of last seasons for Quins. Will Carrick Smlth is a monster that I know little else about. Stookes has potential as does George Kruis, but Dom Barrow possibly has the most of all, and Itoje in the longer term looks a certain cap.


I'd say Launch + Lawes, Parling and Attwood followed by Kitchener and Slater, with Kruis and Barrow as the future.

6- an interesting Position with many roles. Tom Wood is an excellent 6 who works with our 7, and a good leader. Behind him, James Haskell finally looks the real deal. Tom Johnson is solid but unexceptional, an option certainly.

Callum Clarke is loved by Lancaster but not by some fans. I think he had a great season last year but is not the player to bring England forward. Matt Garvey is NOT loved by Lancaster but is exactly te option at 6 or lock we could do with. In his absence (we assume), Slater could fill in at 6. Kruis is a decent 6 but a better lock, and Wray is good but not enough to cap. If Croft can come back well from injury and stay fit he adds something no other englAnd forward can (real attacking running and a great lineout) and is a shoe in for the squad, lack of physicality or not. Gibson has also looked very good for Tigers and deserves a shot at some point but also lacks power. Tom Guest is too old now to get his first cap realistically much to my dismay. Gaskell frankly doesn't impress me much at all. Welch and Wilson at Falcons look good players but unlikely to feature. Carl Fearns adds power and isn't shabby at the breakdown and should be considered too.

In terms of the future, Charlie Blair Walker is an exciting player, and S Jones will surely get capped at 6 or 7, otherwise I struggle to see many young but not academy players in this position. Moriarity could break through if his pack gives him the platform.

7- here Robshaw stands alone with Armitage in exile. Armitage's carrying and scavenging would be useful but not enough to set a dangerous precedent. Robshaw is a jack of all trades, master of all trades though sadly I expect him to go underrated his entire career. After him comes Kvesic who has had good spells, and offers a blend of breakdown and tackling but had a poor season at Gloucester. He will hope his new-look pack can help him out because he is talented.

At Saints, Clarke and wood can play 7. Dowson didn't look up to int level at all. Will Fraser has genuine talent and I hope he can stay fit as he is both present and future. Luke Wallace will get gametime at 6 and when Robshaw is away. He's a great ball player and fetcher but easily caught out of position. Scaysborough is a solid 7 but unlikely to get a look in, and the same applies for Betty, Seymour and Lund. Guy Thompson impresses me as a utility back row but not enough, Rowan looks an option for the future.  Andy Saull seems to have fallen off the horizon, and I can't see him fighting back in.


I think Wood, Haskell and Robshaw are certains here. After that it becomes hard. Slater can play 6. I would love Garvey but doubt we'll see him. After that, Fraser and Kvesic and maybe Wallace at 7 (Rowan and Jones future options) and Fearns, Gibson and Croft at 6 (Kruis and Moriarity maybe the future here). I thought we'd be stronger than we are at flanker.

8- in Billy Vunipola and Morgan we have 2 great options at 8, both powerful though with different carrying specialties. Haskell adds extra cover here too.

After these two, we are better here than I thought. Dickinson is solid. Easter is old but could fill in come the RWC in his current state (ie phenomenal). Crane is back on track with Waldrom ( no thanks) gone. Jack Clifford is the future. Fearns can play here and Burgess may be trialled here. Guest is getting on but good enough, ditto Narraway, York has fallen off the radar. And Ewers is raw but talented.


I would say Billy and Morgan helped by Haskell, with Ewers next, maybe Crane and Easter in an emergency. Clifford for the future, plus Billy will be playing for years to come.



So that gives a pack of

Marler, Corbs, Vunipola
Youngs, Hartley, Webber
Cole, Wilson, Brookes
Lawes,Launchbury, Parling, Attwood
Wood, Haskell, Croft
Robshaw, Fraser
Vunipola, Morgan


The backs:

England's backs have long been seen as an issue- with a dearth of flair, and thanks to the likes of Andy Robinson, a graveyard where the careers of promising young tyros chucked in the deep end go to die (I will never forgive the way he ruined Tait and Allen). However, a few key issues aside, I honestly feel we are stronger than most realise here and certainly stronger than any time in the past 10 years, a few fantastic players from that period aside.


9- not long ago, with Care lacking consistency and maturity and Youngs falling out of form, this was a big worry. However, Care seems to have grown into the player he should have been, fantastic for Quins, bringing that form to England and improving his pass, kick and mind to go with his high tempo and playmaking. Similarly, Youngs looked to be refinding his form at the end of last season and looking like the player we thought could be the best 9 in the world. Behind them, Lee Dickson isn't very exciting but he is solid enough for England and had a great season for Saints.

Behind these 3, Wrigglesworth is not a particularly flashy choice but he is an excellent tactical 9 and I would happily see him play in white. His club mate Spencer looks a long term option, with a similarly good kicking game. Joel Hodgson has gone down the pecking order by moving to Saints but with his skillset and 2 good 9s to learn from is another to watch out for. I don't know much about Harrison, but Karl Dickson at Quins is a solid player who could fill in if needed (not on last season's form though) and Burns and Stuart are ones to watch but need to add cleverness to their pace. Chiefs have 3 solid 9s in Lewis, Chudley and Thomas though I don't know enough about them to say if they could get caps. I don't hugely rate Young but Cook at Bath looks promising and Robson at Glaws too though he'll need to get ahead of Laidlaw, who I think is a silly buy for the club. Simpson offers a lot but also has too many flaws (like his pass...) for me to pick him for England.

Here we can easily say care, Youngs and Dickson, IMO followed by Wriggles and with Cook, Robson and Spencer my picks for the future.


10- more contentious here. Farrell, with his kicking and defence, is clearly the favourite here and has improved his attack but is still never going to be a Spencer or Larkham, and there are rumours he might be tried at 12 in the AIs. Behind him, it's a close 3 way race with Flood taking himself out of the picture. Burns had an awful season, but promises so much in terms of attack and using his backs, and if he can get ahead of Williams he will have a better platform at Tigers. Cipriani has lost the unplayable verve he once had but has also improved his temperament, defence and control and frankly looks the most balanced 10 we have in my eyes, whether he is trusted by others is another question. Ford has shown great tactical kicking and passing but poor goal kicking and is rather small for international rugby. Picking our 10s is key and is a real challenge.

Behind these players, Myler is solid. Hodgson has retired but Goode looked good in his cameos at 10 for Sarries and some have questioned the decision to ever move him from 10 to 15. Billy Burns is too young now but looks even better than his brother and Slade also looks a top quality player. Andy Goode is too old, and Geraghty seems to have fallen off the track that saw him shine so brightly in that one 6N campaign. Clegg too seems to have lost his touch and gone from flakey but a good attacker at Quins to a kicker with no flair at Falcons. I've heard good things about young Joe Ford. Barkley is past it IMO.

Farrell plus 2 of Cips, Ford and Burns, probably Ford and Burns though I think that's not the best call. For the future, mini Burns and Slade look most promising.


12- our biggest problem. Twelvetrees has looked great in spells but subpar in others. Eastmond with the opportunity to attack also looks class but was found massively defensively lacking in t3 in NZ. Burrell can play 12 but with Manu at 13? Can Manu play 12? Farrell? No easy decision here. Barritt has been a stalwart when given the chance but with Farrell at 10 and Manu at 13, that attack just seems far too blunt.


After the current squad members, there are other options. I hugely rate Allen and think he really does deserve another chance (damn you Robinson!). He has the passing (though his role for Tigers doesn't use it that often), the running lines and the defensive leadership to be what we need. However, it looks too late for Allen as he would have been picked before now were it to happen. Chris Bell is another solid clubman who I doubt raises enough pulses to get a chance. Burgess could come in at 12 but until he plays a minute of Union there is no way I can see him playing for England. Devoto looks a future star though. I don't know much about Guy Armitage at all, I'm sure Pete can enlighten me. Sam Hill I have seen and he impresses me a lot. Casson has lost a lot of form for Quins and whilst a fit JTH is vital for us and should have the power and offload to do well for England, his few caps didn't exactly inspire. And he's never ever fit. May at Welsh is ok but not an int. The last centre who springs to mind is Stephenson, for the future at least.


12 is hard but let's stick with 36 and Eastmond, with Burrell predominantly a 13 but an option. I'd love to see Allen there but we won't. For the future, Stephenson and Hill for me but I wouldn't be surprised or upset to see Devoto there.

13- Manu Tuilagi is, for his flaws (that strangely seem to materialise for England- he passes well at Tigers), a lethal player who must be in the squad. He made Conrad Smith look like a schoolboy. Burrell was poor in NZ but had a storming 6N and deserves to be there too.

After this, it becomes harder. Bath's Devoto could play 13, and hopefully Banahan is a no. Joseph looked promising but has dropped off. Tompkins is another for the future, and Tomkins didn't look international class when given the chance and I think is back in league. Can't see Waldouck making it either. Quins have some talented young centres in Sloan (probably won't make it) and Marchant (could do in the future, but very young) and Hopper impresses some. He's too flakey for me and Lowe, if he reaches his previous form from before this horrible injury, is a real possibility, underrated in attack and defence. Daly has IMO all the weapons to play 13 and hopefully will start there and not at 15 for Wasps. Trinder is another good player but needs to stay fit. The others at Falcons etc don't look like options to me.

So manu and Burrell then. I'd have Lowe and Daly next, then Daly, Tompkins and Devoto as the future.

Wing- we have had issues here but I actually think the options are good and varied. We are just low on time to pick them properly. Yarde, now playing with Brown at Quins, has nailed one shirt down with his attack. The other main contenders are Ashton, who had a good club season but may have run out of lives, May, who can't seem to run straight and fulfill his promise, Nowell, who improved through the 6N but doesn't score many tries (adds a lot else though, similar to Watson, another option) and Wade who is untested thanks to injury but looks magic to me and must get a run out frankly. Then FBs like Foden are also in the mix.

Saints also have Elliott, who is understated and does his basics very well. I think he could do well alla Cueto, who himself is too old now days. Thompstone doesn't quite look up to this level and Benjamin needs to prove he is still the player he looked before injury. Strettle does it all at club level but has struggled for England. Williams will never get capped after the B word, Monye has lost his pace but Charlie Walker looks like he might be a future England winger with his pace and ability to play 13 and 15. Arnott and Jess aren't quite there, neither is Brady. Cato hasn't fulfilled his potential but Kiribirige looks the real deal for Falcons in a few years. Ojo has missed the boat, and Lewington looks good but not great (don't know how James Short has been doing at Irish, looked good at Sarries). Sharples has fallen from favour but is still a great attacker if we need more in attack, JSD is too old now. Woodburn is quick but I don't know much about him. Can't see Banahan getting another chance, and Rocky is on the list for the Saxons but I think unlikely to make the full step up. Earle looks lethal as a future winger. Stegmann and Sam Smith are too flawed in defence without the pure danger to counter this. Finally Varndell is a long shot but still a menace to defences at AP level.


I'd go with Yarde and Wade, with Watson, Nowell and May as back ups for now.

All are young but other youngsters to step up are Earle, Walker and Kiribirige.


15- Mike Brown has the shirt if he can approach his AI and 6N form of last year when he was possibly the best in the World. Behind him Foden is proven int class but in my eyes has never neared his form of 3-4 years ago. Goode needs pace outside him but adds a dimension to how England can play. And May, daly, Nowell, Watson can all play FB too. It is a global area of strength and every club has an option here.

With Abendanon leaving and Watson a winger, Bath can offer the solid Luke Arscott. Gloucester have lost (once England vaunted) Olly Morgan but Cook looks promising at 15. Wasps now have the decent option of Miller if Daly (please!!!) stays at 13. Irish have Homer, who i see mostly as a kicker. Catterick and Tait probably not good enough at Falcons. Tom Arscott very underrated and wouldn't be too out of place. Chiefs will probably start Nowell at 15. Sarries have Goode but Ransom is ok too, and Welsh have some players I don't really know much about. Pennell, loyally staying at Wuss despite being in the NZ tour squad, is utterly class and I hope he gets to come back up. After MB for Quins is Chisholm who is dangerously pacy (but has been injured a fair bit) and OLH who wants to play 15s like it's 7s. Matt Tait is looking like the player e could have been if not for Robinson and injuries again but is still made of the same glass as Warburton and Pocock.

FBs have to be Brown, Foden, Goode, with the wingers as back ups and maybe Pennell if he goes on loan. For the future, Cook, maybe Earle and Watson look grand.


So all in all the backs look like:

Care, Youngs
Farrell, Burns,
Twelvetrees, (Eastmond)
Manu, Burrell,
Wade, Yarde, Watson (Nowell, May)
Brown, Goode, Foden

I'll comment on the overall situation, plan etc tomorrow.

At 6 or 8 GF?

To be fair Waldroms been very good this season, still not good enough or fit enough to be an option for England though. And he was brilliant in his first season for Tigers before going down hill.

As to the backline I can't see many changes by SL. Injuries may force sone but otherwise it'll be from:

Starter/Second Choice

9. Care/Youngs
10. Farrell/Burns
11. Wade/May
12. Twelvetrees/Eastmond
13. Manu/Burrell
14. Yards/Nowell
15. Brown/Foden

At 8

BamBam wrote:

LondonTiger wrote:Rob Baxter currently "bigging" up Thomas Waldrom

Haven't caught any Exeter games this season, has Waldrom been playing 8 with Ewers at 6?

Correct

yappysnap wrote:To be fair Waldroms been very good this season, still not good enough or fit enough to be an option for England though. And he was brilliant in his first season for Tigers before going down hill.

As to the backline I can't see many changes by SL. Injuries may force sone but otherwise it'll be from:

Starter/Second Choice

9. Care/Youngs
10. Farrell/Burns
11. Wade/May
12. Twelvetrees/Eastmond
13. Manu/Burrell
14. Yards/Nowell
15. Brown/Foden

You seriously think Burns will be picked? Not sure about the wingers either.

Not so much what I think, but more what I'm assuming SL will go with working from who he's chosen on the lat few games.

Of course there are arguments for different players in just about every position.

Think Ford will be there rather than Burns. But for injury he would have gone to NZ and hes playing rather well.

One position I would like to hear your opinions on...Launchbury seems set in stone...

Lawes or Attwood?

Not even certain I'd go with launchbury for the AI's

He was visibly drained by the end of last season because he played too much, if he now features in all the England games building up to the RWC I worry the same might happen again.

Also he has nothing to prove and Atwood has yet to properly convince for England, an extended run would be perfect for him. Lawes is a key technical player while the flankers can cover for Joe's absence.

Sounds sensible....Joe did look shattered in the NZ tyour.

Ok what about 8. Billy V or Ben Morgan.

I don't know where the idea that it's Launchbury + 1 really comes from. He has been excellent but I thought Lawes was our stand-out forward for most of last season, and one of not many genuine world class players we have. He also calls the lineout. I'd love to see Attwood get a start or two as well. Our scrum was creaking before and after Cole's injury, and he'd add power behind Wilson as well as in the maul without really losing much in terms of work rate. 

One issue though is that Launchbury's main asset is his engine - the sheer amount of work he gets through over 80 minutes. That's less of an asset off the bench, so he'd be slightly wasted there. Same goes for Wood when deciding between him and Haskell.

I really like Marler but he's not imposed himself this season yet and Corbisiero has started in great form. I was always slightly confused with the way he upped his game for England/Lions compared to his club form at LI. Not any more.

1. Corbisiero
2. Hartley
3. Wilson
4. Attwood
5. Lawes
6. Wood/Haskell
7. Robshaw
8. Vunipola

We haven't played the Boks for a couple of years. This is I reckon the best pack we could put out to really take them on up front.

I Like that pack!

If start Hask and maybe have Ewers benching to cover 6 and 8

Can't agree there thomh.
Attwood is a perfect impact sub because of his bulk much like Morgan.

As you say the work rate of Joe is second to none as far as locks go. Deceptively fast, carries well,constantly turns the ball over, tackles non stop & you would swap that for a bit more bulk in the scrum?

I'm pleased that Attwood has progressed this season & by all means bring him on for a good run out but he isn't at the same level as Launchbury & Lawes who are up there with the best & young to.

1 Marler
2 Webber
3 Brookes
4 Launchbury
5 Lawes
6 Garvey
7 Haskell
8 B.Morgan

9 Care
10 Cipriani / Ford

11 Yarde
12 Barritt
13 Tuilagi
14 Ashton
15 Brown

Geordiefalcon is that your dream team?

thomh Problem with Corbisiero is that he's injured most of the time.

Quite like that pack though. Launchbury is good but Attwood will added much needed bulk vs SA.

Would say with Garveys recent injury I would put Ewers there TBH.

Ah not really beshcked just putting a few names out there for a bit of debate.

Welly...yeah Garvey wouldnt be considered as he's injured...well he wouldnt be considered full stop would he .....

Theres a few positions i just cont decide..

For example Wood is a cracking player and offers lineout options also. But he's not explosively powerful like say Haskell or offer sheer size like Garvey or possiby Ewers.

He's very much in the mould that Lancaster likes. Im just not sure if thats the recpie for winning a WC.

Hopefully im proven wrong.

Looks like Corbisiero is out AGAIN. http://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/0/rugby-union/29423576

He's really having a bad time of it with injury.

He should be back playing well before the RWC, but with his history of injuries it seems he's never going to get a few months of consecutive top level rugby under his belt before then.

I guess that means Marler is nailed on the the AI's then.

Was just going to post about Corbs, insanely bad luck with injuries, shoulder this time but still, what bad timing

The only good news is that it's a completely new injury and I guess he's not going to be worn out for the WC! Such bad luck.

Its got to the stage i simply dont consider him when thinking about the England team now .

LH's are Marler, Vunipola, Waller.

Shame because he the best of a pretty good bunch.

At his prime yes he is...i said many a time before his injury he was one of our few World Class players.

Sadly i dont expect him to get through this...he just seems one of them that just suffers injury after injury...

Marler isnt as strong a scrummager but has done very well...and i hope he can become a bit more destructive in the scrum...though im not sure we'll see that.

Whats happening with Mako? Havent seen much of him...is he imprving in the scrum etc?

Devastating for Corbs. He's barely strung a few games together since he's been at Saints. 

Mullan at LH is another GF. He's always around the England setup, and I thought had some very decent cameos this year. 

Marler to start moving forward now.

Mullan is decent but i think he's behind those three Eddie....in fact both the Wallers play LH dont they so that'll be four.

Mako is out injured GF. Back after November I think. 

No Lawes on the blindside please! He's a better lock and England have better options at 6. 

Attwood on the bench to replace Lawes or Big Joe when needed. Attwood's looked good this season, since his mammoth performance against Tigers.

GeordieFalcon wrote:At his prime yes he is...i said many a time before his injury he was one of our few World Class players.

Sadly i dont expect him to get through this...he just seems one of them that just suffers injury after injury...

Marler isnt as strong a scrummager but has done very well...and i hope he can become a bit more destructive in the scrum...though im not sure we'll see that.

Whats happening with Mako? Havent seen much of him...is he imprving in the scrum etc?

Injury he got towards the end of last season needed surgery and initial prognosis was not back till December.

GeordieFalcon wrote:Mullan is decent but i think he's behind those three Eddie....in fact both the Wallers play LH dont they so that'll be four.

Are they both LHs? I thought Ethan was tight head, but not entirely sure. 

Mullan's in the same boat as Henry Thomas for me- fringe players without ever really being given a chance. There's a number of loosies available, and we need one to start separate himself from the pack. Mullan had a great game in the scrums this weekend, so it could be him...!

Really bad luck for Corbisiero and it exposes us a little on the loose head side. I can't imagine Mako will be thrown back into international rugby as soon as he is fit, so we could/are be without two of our three first choice looseheads for the AIs. Just because it is England, I'm going to say that Marler is going to pick up some kind of comedy injury too, maybe slip on a bar of soap?

Saying that, I think it is a mark of how far England's front row depth has developed that we are without 3 first choice props (including Cole) and it shouldn't be a devastating blow.

GF yeh the concern with Wood is he is a bit of a jack of all trades master of non type of player imo. A would work really well with maybe a specialist 7, but since Robshaw is 7 and he is also a jack of all trades master of non type player both flankers seem to just be solid options.

Forgot all about Cole. Yea there are plenty of options still, it'll be interesting to see what the England camp can do for Marler as he's been having a tough time of it at Quins with a youngster on the other side of the scrum, the team falling apart around him and a new captaincy to take on. I imagine he'll enjoy the lack of pressure!

Welly wrote:GF yeh the concern with Wood is he is a bit of a jack of all trades master of non type of player imo. A would work really well with maybe a specialist 7, but since Robshaw is 7 and he is also a jack of all trades master of non type player both flankers seem to just be solid options.

Last season that was compounded by him being pretty average at every trade as well, perhaps we do need more of a specialist at 6 with a specific skill set.

Am I right in thinking Wood hasn't played yet this season?

I think Lanacaster has picked his whole pack on that basis...do enough in the scrum to win possesion...then everyone has to be good at everything.

To a large degree it has worked...i just wonder if it has a limiting factor also.

Haskell, Ewers and Garvey are fit guys and get around the park very well..but offer more physical benefits. Certainly in defence and carrying in the close in....actually Haskell is a great carrier in open play aswell...which we need more of.

Im not saying its right or wrong...just putting out some suggestions.

I think we all know who will start the AI's.

yappysnap wrote:

Welly wrote:GF yeh the concern with Wood is he is a bit of a jack of all trades master of non type of player imo. A would work really well with maybe a specialist 7, but since Robshaw is 7 and he is also a jack of all trades master of non type player both flankers seem to just be solid options.

Last season that was compounded by him being pretty average at every trade as well, perhaps we do need more of a specialist at 6 with a specific skill set.

Am I right in thinking Wood hasn't played yet this season?

Just checked back on the beeb. Wood played vs Wasps and Gloucs

For NZ, I'd go for the following pack:

1. Marler
2. Hartley
3. Wilson
4. Launchbury
5. Lawes
6. Haskell
7. Robshaw (Capt)
8. Vunipola

16. Webber
17. ?
18. Brookes
19. Attwood
20. Morgan

Have to say I really like Attwood and would love to see him and Lanuchbury start at least one of the tests this Autumn with the remaining pack the same around them.

For me, despite the good work that Wood does and has done, I think Haskell and Robshaw offer more and would look to keep these 2 in for the big 3 games.

For Samoa, I'd look to Wood to Capt and rest Robshaw. Then if you play him at 6 have Fraser at 7, or go for Wood at 7 and play a bigger ball carrier at 6, such as Fearns.

But thats just me.

Fearns is out for 2 months i think.

He's another like Corbs...just as he hits form he seems to get injured. Been a big player for Bath so far this season.

Ah, have to admit I wasn't aware of that. Thats a shame.

I do like the idea of a big, robust, 6 though to offer that physical, abrasive, presence we need.

Who are the main flank options, for now going into the WC? Injury dependant of course.

Blindside - Wood, the Hask, Croft, Ewers, Johnson (blergh), maybe Slater?

Openside - Robshaw, Kvesic, Fraser, Wallace?

Probably missing a few obvious ones

Current 1st choice
6 Wood
7 Robshaw
I dont see that changing to be honest

Contenders
6/7 Haskell offers a more robust power option. Playing very well and of course this year has taken on the captaincy at Wasps.

6/8 Ewers is a huge guy who offers similar to Haskell a more robust powerhouse option than Wood.
Playing well for his club side.

6 Croft is even more lightweight than Wood...but offers huge speed, world class lineout and excellent cover defence. Also excellent additional attacking option.
A very different option to normal 6's...a bit like Marmite..divides opinions.

7 Will Fraser has been very noticable on the flank for Sarries. A more traditional openside but still a fairly big lad. The one most people see as putting pressure on Robsaw for that spot.

Outsiders
6/7/8 Fearns a massive guy at 6'3 and 19.5 stone he's been playing exceptionally well this season. But he does have a history of picking up injuries...and once again is out for 2 months

7 S.Armitage Probably not even an outsider...appears to be a no goer...

6 Garvey A monster of a guy 6'6 20.5 stone yet is mobile to go with it. Immense defensively...and in the tight, offering raw strength rather than explosive power like Haskell etc...he would be a different kind of option on the blindside. Whilst not the best carrier in the world he does give you the ability to make the hard yards close in...and is also a lineout option.
Currently injured and having never been selected after the infamous Saxons game halftime it would appear he is not in the reckoning.

I personally would go for pack wise:

 Aus/NZ

 1) Marler, 2) Hartley, 3) Wilson
 4) Lawes, 5) Launchbury
 6) Haskell, 7) Robshaw, 8) Morgan

16) Webber, 17) Waller, 18) Brookes, 20) Lawes, 21) Vunipola/Kvesic

 SA
 1) Marler, 2) Hartley, 3) Wilson
 4) Attwood, 5) Launchbury
 6) Ewers, 7) Haskell, 8) Vunipola

16) Webber, 17) Waller, 18) Brookes, 19) Lawes, 20) Robshaw

 Samoa
 1) Waller, 2) Webber, 3) Brookes
 4) Kruis, 5) Kitchener/Lawes
 6) Wood, 7) Kevsic, 8) Ewers

 16) George, 17) Barrington, 18) Snickler, 19) Stooke?, 20) Morgan

 or something like that.

Is Lawes on the bench and playing agains Oz and NZ Welly?

I could go along with those packs actually. It also rests a few players.

This summer...the likes of Farrell was a broken man, Burrell , launchbury etc all looked absolutely shot to bits.

We need to manage them properly and make sure that they are as near as fresh as possible for the WC.

I think its probably a stretch to replace Robshaw with Ewers just because we are playing SA, I reckon Ewers could get a run out vs Samoa if he was going to play, but can't see him being thrown in against one of the big 3

Pretty much agree with the packs picked for NZ and SA, less Ewers for Robshaw. The Attwood/Launchbury has the potential to be a be a very good combo and went well in Arg, granted against a weaker opposition.

But then again you can't take away what Lawes and Launchbury achieved in the 6N.

Either way i think Launchbury is the linch pin and its a straight shoot out between Lawes and Attwood for the 5 shirt.

What about the midfield options? Twelvetrees and Burrell both excelled in the 6Ns but Twelvetress is now no longer the flavour of the month.

I know Manu's an explosive option but for me he is very limited, and the back line as a whole functioned much better when he wasn't there. That said I think we need to see the Twelvetrees and Tuilagi option tried in the Autumn to see how we get on and give them a run of games with Burrell on the bench.

For Samoa i would personally go for Burrell at 12 and Joseph at 13 just to try something different. Joseph has gone very well so far this season, and both he and Burrell rarely make mistakes.

jamesandimac wrote:Pretty much agree with the packs picked for NZ and SA, less Ewers for Robshaw.  The Attwood/Launchbury has the potential to be a be a very good combo and went well in Arg, granted against a weaker opposition.

But then again you can't take away what Lawes and Launchbury achieved in the 6N.

Either way i think Launchbury is the linch pin and its a straight shoot out between Lawes and Attwood for the 5 shirt.  

What about the midfield options?  Twelvetrees and Burrell both excelled in the 6Ns but Twelvetress is now no longer the flavour of the month.

I know Manu's an explosive option but for me he is very limited, and the back line as a whole functioned much better when he wasn't there.  That said I think we need to see the Twelvetrees and Tuilagi option tried in the Autumn to see how we get on and give them a run of games with Burrell on the bench.

For Samoa i would personally go for Burrell at 12 and Joseph at 13 just to try something different.  Joseph has gone very well so far this season, and both he and Burrell rarely make mistakes.

Completely agree. Looks like Dai Young is rotating Launchberry this season which is great to see. As others have said he looked exhausted towards the end of last season, and has got a huge year coming up. Need him fresh.

jamesandimac wrote:Pretty much agree with the packs picked for NZ and SA, less Ewers for Robshaw.  The Attwood/Launchbury has the potential to be a be a very good combo and went well in Arg, granted against a weaker opposition.

But then again you can't take away what Lawes and Launchbury achieved in the 6N.

Either way i think Launchbury is the linch pin and its a straight shoot out between Lawes and Attwood for the 5 shirt.  

What about the midfield options?  Twelvetrees and Burrell both excelled in the 6Ns but Twelvetress is now no longer the flavour of the month.

I know Manu's an explosive option but for me he is very limited, and the back line as a whole functioned much better when he wasn't there.  That said I think we need to see the Twelvetrees and Tuilagi option tried in the Autumn to see how we get on and give them a run of games with Burrell on the bench.

For Samoa i would personally go for Burrell at 12 and Joseph at 13 just to try something different.  Joseph has gone very well so far this season, and both he and Burrell rarely make mistakes.

I am not convinced by Twelvetrees. I would be tempted to give Slade a try at twelve with Tuilagi. Long term it might be Slade at ten with Burgess and Tuilagi but perhaps we need to see if Burgess can adapt first!

Is the line out strong enough with Attwood/Launchbury? I know Attwood can call, but are we lacking the athletic middle jumper there, maybe would have to be Wood at 6 as he is usually excellent in the air

What about the midfield options? Twelvetrees and Burrell both excelled in the 6Ns but Twelvetress is now no longer the flavour of the month.

Does anyone really think he excelled? I certainly dont. Burrell played well ran some excellent lines that led to tries...the type of lines we used to see Ashton running...why dont we see that anymore?

I think Eastmond is putting a marker down for Bath and deserves a run out in the AI's

Personally I thought Twelvetress was very good in the 6Ns, we showed a lot of width from his passing game (think of some of his miss passes which lead to line breaks out wide) and he showed a good running game too in the open. Not to mention his defence was very solid and wis all round play was of a high standard (hitting rucks, clearing up loose ball). I think he was maligned because his form dropped off late in the season, as did a number of players. And lets not forget he didn't play for the best part of 6 weeks before the NZ game due to injury.

What are peoples thoughts on Joseph?

His form pick up towards the end of last season, after he returned from injury, and he's seemed to have picked up where he left off.

jamesandimac wrote:Personally I thought Twelvetress was very good in the 6Ns, we showed a lot of width from his passing game (think of some of his miss passes which lead to line breaks out wide) and he showed a good running game too in the open.  Not to mention his defence was very solid and wis all round play was of a high standard (hitting rucks, clearing up loose ball).  I think he was maligned because his form dropped off late in the season, as did a number of players.  And lets not forget he didn't play for the best part of 6 weeks before the NZ game due to injury.

What are peoples thoughts on Joseph?

His form pick up towards the end of last season, after he returned from injury, and he's seemed to have picked up where he left off.

I agree with you again jamesandimac. 

36 for me does a lot of things well, and even though he had a poor summer tour I thought he performed well in the Six Nations. Lovely offload this weekend for one of Gloucester's tries and he's got a cannon of a boot too. 

Criticism of his defensive is ridiculous in my opinion. 

Competition for his shirt isn't exactly stifling, but he's going to have to hold off Burrell, Slade, and Eastmond.

Parling out of the Autumn's now too. 

Bitter sweet really. It's great management from the Tigers team which is a decent advertisement for rugby as a whole, and it means Attwood should get some good game time. But Parling will be missed