England 38 man squad

First topic message reminder :

With the squad set to be selected on Wednesday, I'd be interested to see what players people would like to see included.
This would be my squad in no particular order...

01: J.Marler (Quins) A.Waller (Saints) M.Mullan (Wasps)*
02: R.Webber (Bath) D.Hartley (Saints) J.Gray (Quins)
03: D.Wilson (Bath) H.Thomas (Bath) K.Brookes (Newcastle)
04: J.Launchberry (Wasps) G.Kitchener (Leicester)
05: D.Attwood (Bath) C.Lawes (Saints)
06. T.Wood (Saints) J.Haskell (Wasps)
07. C.Robshaw (Quins) W.Fraser (Saracens) M.Kvesic (Gloucester)*
08: B.Vunipola (Saracens) B.Morgan (Gloucester)

Injured: Corbisiero, Vunipola, Youngs, Cole, Slater, Parling, Croft, Garvey, Fearns, Johnson, Dickinson.

09: D.Care (Quins) B.Youngs (Leicester) L.Dickson (Saints)
10: D.Cipriani (Sale) G.Ford (Bath) O.Farrell (Saracens)
11. M.Yarde (Irish) A.Watson (Bath)
12. B.Barritt (Saracens) K.Eastmond (Bath) B.Twelvetrees (Gloucester)*
13. L.Burrell (Saints) J.Joseph (Bath)
14. S.Rokodeguni (Bath) C.Ashton (Saracens)*
15. M.Brown (Quins) B.Foden (Saints) A.Goode (Saracens)

Injured: Allen, Tuilagi, Trinder.

*Marler isn't having the most consistent seasons, whilst Waller is thriving for Saints in Corbisiero's absence. I could see him pressing Marler for a spot in the test XV

*The back row is our most competitive area. With all 5 of our flanker options the official 7's for their clubs; Quins, Saints, Saracens, Wasps and Gloucester respectively. I expect to see Fraser or Kvesic given a starting birth against Samoa.

*I reluctantly picked Twelvetrees, due to his ineffectiveness against better sides. However, Lancaster has faith in him so i'll give him the spot. If Eastmond is fully fit, his form merits a starting position.

*The wings are very open. There are a number of players who must be close to selection including May (LW) Strettle (LW) Sharples (RW) Nowell (RW) and Wade (RW) Chris Ashton really is in the last chance saloon.

This would be my XV to play New Zealand in the first test. Subs in brackets.

01. J.Marler (A.Waller)
02. D.Hartley (R.Webber)
03. D.Wilson (H.Thomas)
04. J.Launchberry (C.Lawes)
05. D.Attwood
06. T.Wood (J.Haskell)
07. C.Robshaw
08. B.Vunipola
09. D.Care (B.Youngs)
10. O.Farrell (D.Cipriani)
11. A.Watson
12. L.Burrell (K.Eastmond)
13. J.Joseph
14. C.Ashton
15. M.Brown

This would be my XV to play Samoa. Mostly squad players to be given a chance. Subs in brackets.

01. A.Waller (M.Mullan)
02. R.Webber (J.Gray)
03. H.Thomas (K.Brookes)
04. C.Lawes (G.Kitchener)
05. D.Attwood
06. J.Haskell
07. W.Fraser (M.Kvesic)
08. B.Morgan
09. B.Youngs (L.Dickson)
10. G.Ford (D.Cipriani)
11. M.Yarde
12. K.Eastmond
13. J.Joseph
14. S.Rokodeguni
15. B.Foden (A.Goode)

If we're looking for creativity and we think that there's no real options at 12, then we really shouldn't look further than Eastmond/Joseph in the centres. I know I'm biased, but these two really are in form and have a great understanding of each other.

beshocked wrote: NZ are so good because they play 1-15 as an unit - backs and forwards can link up together in a cohesive manner. I never feel that way with English forwards and backs.


England don't utilise wingers in an effective manner something I go on and on about.  

NZ obviously do hence Savea's try count. I know we don't have a winger of Savea's ability but even if we did he wouldn't be as effective in an England side!

Support is probably the key word - both in attack and defence - this is something NZ are so good at. England in comparison need to work in this area.

Which is why it would be worth considering having players like Foden who have the gas to support players making line breaks.

An Eastmond Burrell partnership could be interesting, Burrell does follow the play and for Saints at least is usually in support of a break, it showed in last years 6N. I would want a better defender than Ford at 10 though, Ford and Eastmond at 10/12 would invite the big runners all day long. Myler at 10 at a push would be OK but preferably Farrell if Eastmond is to play.

If Farrell is unfit, I can't see beyond 36 at 12, or possibly Burrell with Joseph at 13.

Supporting players is much more about being able to read the game rather than out and out gas.

And that is an issue we have throughout our rugby. Our young players at schools and local clubs do not learn this in the way NZ bred players do, and it is only with experience that they seem to gain the skill.

Can i just add...something ive had to say before...Johnny Wilkinson actually had a good running game in his armoury and in the first few years of his England career he was very active running the ball.

It was after that he became a more "controlling" Fh.

Farrell doesnt have the same ability.....

I really thought he'd have learnt his lesson from the whole Brown on the wing, Wood at 8, Lawes at 6 debacle. I just wish he would stop with the experiments. There's a reason these players play certain positions for their clubs! 

Anyway, the report was praising Kruis and I'm glad he's there to be honest, even if it is because of the injuries to Slater and Parling. We've got great depth at lock now, and nothing is more of a testament to that than the fact that Kitchener was omitted given his sterling season so far.

Things can seem overcomplicated some times. NZ are excellent at supporting players, but it really is a basic skill that all kids starting out should learn, let alone professionals/ internationals. When I grew up playing RL as a kid, you weren't applauded for reading the play/ running support lines, you were dropped from the team if you didn't!

Londontiger I agree with that. I think it's a very underrated skill but so useful.

It's a skill I feel that both May and Nowell did not have in the 6 nations.

Brown and Burrell got their tries because of the supporting lines they ran.

Ashton has got most of his tries because of his ability to support and run good lines. Whatever people say about his defence - his try strike rate is one of the best in England currently and he's 9th on the England try scoring stats.

WELL-PAST-IT wrote:An Eastmond Burrell partnership could be interesting, Burrell does follow the play and for Saints at least is usually in support of a break, it showed in last years 6N. I would want a better defender than Ford at 10 though, Ford and Eastmond at 10/12 would invite the big runners all day long. Myler at 10 at a push would be OK but preferably Farrell if Eastmond is to play.

If Farrell is unfit, I can't see beyond 36 at 12, or possibly Burrell with Joseph at 13.

Ford's defence is fine, but I'd worry about his goal kicking at the top level. Can't say the same about Myler's kicking, but wouldn't say his tackling was any better than Ford's.

Cumbrian wrote:Things can seem overcomplicated some times.  NZ are excellent at supporting players, but it really is a basic skill that all kids starting out should learn, let alone professionals/ internationals.  When I grew up playing RL as a kid, you weren't applauded for reading the play/ running support lines, you were dropped from the team if you didn't!

Sadly, the emphasis is should Cumbrian. My nephew plays County age grade level, usually as a blindside but sometimes on the open side. It seems, when I watch training, that all the emphasis is on drills. Tackling drills, clearing out drills, lineout drills and sometimes even attacking drills. all to a set pattern. There should be much more emphasis on building their ability to play heads up rugby - rather than just continually honing technical issues.

Like many of the kids, he plays on Saturdays for his school and Sundays for his club, so little time to watch the game. however he says how much more he learns when accompanying me to Welford Rd, sitting behind the posts and able to see where there are gaps, where players are using the space available and where passing and running lines are killing the space. The long journey home (and at the game) gives us a real chance to talk about the game and what could be done differently. Off his own back he is becoming a studwent of the game, revising his running lines off scrums and lineouts etc and becoming an all round player. this however is in spite of his coaches actions.

and there in lies our problem. Far too often we pick players who just do not have the basic skills - often because so many young players do not, and because the ones selected have something exceptional abouttheir game. If it is not underpinned by decent foundations though it is pointless.

Beshocked, I am like you, I cannot understand why Ashton has stopped doing it for England. If it is team strategy that Wings stay out wide and defend, I can understand why he is not there, but none of the others are much better defensively except perhaps Nowell.

The team strategy has to revolve around the players available, and we have not had any monster defenders available since before SL's time, so where has it come from if it is SL's plan.

Could it be that he has not recovered the confidence to do it at test level and therefore stays back trying to do the defensive job and not get caught out of position. We saw both May and Nowell coming into the line at times last year.

I just cannot understand his problem or SL's strategy, both are clearly talented people in their own ways. Did he make a pass at SL's daughter or something, that might explain it.

Bathite,

At AP level I cannot criticise Ford, but against the AB and Boks, I could see them running the likes of Nonu, Reid and Savea at him all day if Eastmond was at 12. I would have no problems with him if Burrell or Barritt were at 12.

It is just the fact that both are very small for International players and I feel that with both of them there they would be targeted and I suspect would fail to cope all match. Either one with support either side would be fine with me.

Exactly well past it - Ashton continues to score against quality sides in the top tier European competition.

I am under the impression that it's England's inability to utilise their wingers sufficiently which has led to most wingers being unable to score for England.

Look at Yarde this season with Quins - he's struggling to make a positive impression - is it him or the team? Would he be scoring tries for fun in another team? Perhaps.

A winger can look good or bad depending on the support they are given by team mates. As I said before would Savea have such a prolific try scoring record if he was in the England side? Probably not.

It's not just as simple as picking player X, you need to pick player X and hope they can play well with Y and Z also.

We have to find that balance between defence and attack.

beshocked wrote:Londontiger I agree with that. I think it's a very underrated skill but so useful.

It's a skill I feel that both May and Nowell did not have in the 6 nations.

Brown and Burrell got their tries because of the supporting lines they ran.

Ashton has got most of his tries because of his ability to support and run good lines. Whatever people say about his defence - his try strike rate is one of the best in England currently and he's 9th on the England try scoring stats.

Ashton scored 11 of his 19 International tries with Flood at 10
Then scored 4 with Wilkinson @ 10
then scored 4 with Farrell @ 10

 Also he scored 15 tries under Martin Johnson

 His try ratio under coaches was

 15 tries in 19 matches for Johnson
  4 tries in 21 matches for Lancaster

 Huge, huge difference their.

WELL-PAST-IT wrote:Bathite,

At AP level I cannot criticise Ford, but against the AB and Boks, I could see them running the likes of Nonu, Reid and Savea at him all day if Eastmond was at 12. I would have no problems with him if Burrell or Barritt were at 12.

It is just the fact that both are very small for International players and I feel that with both of them there they would be targeted and I suspect would fail to cope all match. Either one with support either side would be fine with me.

I keep reading concerns that Eastmond is defensively frail. Is this really demonstrably the case? I always thought that his build, speed and general game was a lot like Jason Robinson and I never had him down as a defensive weak link.

Or just use the Shane Williams/Gio Aplon Argument. Yes, Shane probably wasn't able to always prevent attacking play in the same manner as some of his larger colleagues may have done, but with more than 60 international tries, his contribution always come out in the 'profit' column.

THERE certainly is, Beshocked can explain exactly why.

Just checked, SL doesn't have a daughter and his wife would eat CA for breakfast, maybe it was his son he made a pass at.

Oooopps, sorry no England wingers can't make passes, they never get the ball in the first place.


Just feeling a bit sill this afternoon, bored stupid at work

Welly wrote:

beshocked wrote:Londontiger I agree with that. I think it's a very underrated skill but so useful.

It's a skill I feel that both May and Nowell did not have in the 6 nations.

Brown and Burrell got their tries because of the supporting lines they ran.

Ashton has got most of his tries because of his ability to support and run good lines. Whatever people say about his defence - his try strike rate is one of the best in England currently and he's 9th on the England try scoring stats.

Ashton scored 11 of his 19 International tries with Flood at 10
Then scored 4 with Wilkinson @ 10
then scored 4 with Farrell @ 10

 Also he scored 15 tries under Martin Johnson

 His try ratio under coaches was

 15 tries in 19 matches for Johnson
  4 tries in 21 matches for Lancaster

 Huge, huge difference their.

Yes it does make a massive difference.

Ashton doesn't have issues scoring tries with Farrell at 10 for Saracens so the problem is quite clearly Lancaster.

I haven't looked at the stats but don't the bulk of England's backline tries under Lancaster come from the centres?

George Carlin wrote:

WELL-PAST-IT wrote:Bathite,

At AP level I cannot criticise Ford, but against the AB and Boks, I could see them running the likes of Nonu, Reid and Savea at him all day if Eastmond was at 12. I would have no problems with him if Burrell or Barritt were at 12.

It is just the fact that both are very small for International players and I feel that with both of them there they would be targeted and I suspect would fail to cope all match. Either one with support either side would be fine with me.

I keep reading concerns that Eastmond is defensively frail. Is this really demonstrably the case? I always thought that his build, speed and general game was a lot like Jason Robinson and I never had him down as a defensive weak link.

Or just use the Shane Williams/Gio Aplon Argument. Yes, Shane probably wasn't able to always prevent attacking play in the same manner as some of his larger colleagues may have done, but with more than 60 international tries, his contribution always come out in the 'profit' column.

George,

I don't think Eastmond is particularly defensively frail, neither is Ford at AP level, it is just the combo of two; for Int. rugby, small players side be side without much experience (Eastmond is really still learning Union) that I have problems with. You can cover one potentially weak defender, but not two in adjacent positions.

JR was special, but the game was a bit different then as well. There were not the number of very big backs about there are now and the game was not quite so physical. The likes of Lumu were a rarity, now every side (except England) seems to have a number of 17-18 stone wingers and centres, look at Wales, there backline is bigger than most back five pack players of 10 years ago

I think Eastmonds defensive issue comes from the 3rd test in NZ when everyone man and their dog put the blame firmly at his feet...rather than saying...everyone was poor. Besides its not Eastmonds physical issue...i think he is still learning the positioning of 12 defensively.

But i have no worries about putting him for all the AI's. To me he's the one that could really nail that position.

And for everyone saying 12 needs to have a kicking game....the deity that is Mr Greenwood didnt have one.

Also Under Johnson Ashton ran (ball in hand)

 1027 M in 18 games (average of 57 M a game)
 
 Under Lancaster

 607 M in 21 games (average of 28.9M a game)

GeordieFalcon wrote:I think Eastmonds defensive issue comes from the 3rd test in NZ when everyone man and their dog put the blame firmly at his feet...rather than saying...everyone was poor. Besides its not Eastmonds physical issue...i think he is still learning the positioning of 12 defensively.

But i have no worries about putting him for all the AI's. To me he's the one that could really nail that position.

And for everyone saying 12 needs to have a kicking game....the deity that is Mr Greenwood didnt have one.

And in that game, even at set piece with plenty of time, there was no organisation in the backline defence. They were all over the place, every one. I have no idea who wasthe defencive captain in the backline (did they have one) but they weren't doing their job. If it was Eastmond (considering his experience it would have been a bad idea) then so be it.

beshocked wrote:

Welly wrote:

beshocked wrote:Londontiger I agree with that. I think it's a very underrated skill but so useful.

It's a skill I feel that both May and Nowell did not have in the 6 nations.

Brown and Burrell got their tries because of the supporting lines they ran.

Ashton has got most of his tries because of his ability to support and run good lines. Whatever people say about his defence - his try strike rate is one of the best in England currently and he's 9th on the England try scoring stats.

Ashton scored 11 of his 19 International tries with Flood at 10
Then scored 4 with Wilkinson @ 10
then scored 4 with Farrell @ 10

 Also he scored 15 tries under Martin Johnson

 His try ratio under coaches was

 15 tries in 19 matches for Johnson
  4 tries in 21 matches for Lancaster

 Huge, huge difference their.

Yes it does make a massive difference.

Ashton doesn't have issues scoring tries with Farrell at 10 for Saracens so the problem is quite clearly Lancaster.

I haven't looked at the stats but don't the bulk of England's backline tries under Lancaster come from the centres?

Possibly due to the ever changing combos that he is forced to field due to injury, the further the ball goes out with untried combos, the more risk of mistakes and SL is most certainly a belt and braces man.

As I said above I can't understand why CA does not produce his club form for England, I don't know if it is SL or CA. But the continual changes cannot make it easy for a winger.

Here is a challenge for the statisticians on here, how many times under SL have England been able to field a consistent backline for 3 or more games?

GeordieFalcon wrote:May has been playing very well and scoring tries Bedford.

Wade hasnt really hit form since his return from injury coupled with dropping some clangers defensively recently, they have maybe thought to give him a little more time with Wasps.

However we are just hearing that another 8 are to be added and he is expected to be one of them.

Both May and Wade really appeal to me...but both have areas of their game they need to improve considerably.

GF,

Fair play then just May never looked upto it last season, like some of the posts I have now read the combo of Yarde and Rokoduguni looks pretty good.

I see Manu will be out for 8 weeks, they want to give him a little extra time to ensure he is fit for around the world cup.

Seems fair enough we have seen it so many times where players are rushed back then pull up again.

It will give Lancaster a chance to look at his other options.

bedfordwelsh wrote:

GeordieFalcon wrote:May has been playing very well and scoring tries Bedford.

Wade hasnt really hit form since his return from injury coupled with dropping some clangers defensively recently, they have maybe thought to give him a little more time with Wasps.

However we are just hearing that another 8 are to be added and he is expected to be one of them.

Both May and Wade really appeal to me...but both have areas of their game they need to improve considerably.

GF,

Fair play then just May never looked upto it last season, like some of the posts I have now read the combo of Yarde and Rokoduguni looks pretty good.

May's problem is that he goes off on those magical mystery runs of his. Now at prem level its ok and his team mates can work with it. But at international level last season he got caught out. Also as has been mentioned frequently above the wingers havent been greatly used in any case...as they should be.

May however has a huge armoury as a winger. He is rediculously quick, has a good step, and despite a slight looking frame is actually quite strong. He also has played FB and centre, so has a decent defence and is good under the high ball...

What he needs to do is use a bit of intelligence and experience to know when to back himself going forward in a straight line using his pace...and when to go on a mazy run through crowds. Mazy runs can be effective at the right time..but he needs to get that decision making part of his game right and he could be very good.

Im Looking forward to seeing the new bigger stronger and faster version of Nowell getting a game on the wing aswell.

bedfordwelsh wrote:Seems fair enough we have seen it so many times where players are rushed back then pull up again.

It will give Lancaster a chance to look at his other options.

Everyone keeps saying Manu is Englands most potent strike runner at 13 and is irreplaceable...but is not a team player.

What happens if this AI Eastmond, Burrell, Telvetrees etc play so well and get the wings involved that Manu becomes a hinderance?

Could that scenario arise?

GeordieFalcon wrote:

bedfordwelsh wrote:Seems fair enough we have seen it so many times where players are rushed back then pull up again.

It will give Lancaster a chance to look at his other options.

Everyone keeps saying Manu is Englands most potent strike runner at 13 and is irreplaceable...but is not a team player.

What happens if this AI Eastmond, Burrell, Telvetrees etc play so well and get the wings involved that Manu becomes a hinderance?

Could that scenario arise?

That was the thought after the 6N last season, the 36 /Burrell partnership worked better than any other combo tried to date, can't really remember a 36/Manu partnership. Have they played together?

Not for England, barring Manu on the wing.

GeordieFalcon wrote:

bedfordwelsh wrote:

GeordieFalcon wrote:May has been playing very well and scoring tries Bedford.

Wade hasnt really hit form since his return from injury coupled with dropping some clangers defensively recently, they have maybe thought to give him a little more time with Wasps.

However we are just hearing that another 8 are to be added and he is expected to be one of them.

Both May and Wade really appeal to me...but both have areas of their game they need to improve considerably.

GF,

Fair play then just May never looked upto it last season, like some of the posts I have now read the combo of Yarde and Rokoduguni looks pretty good.

May's problem is that he goes off on those magical mystery runs of his. Now at prem level its ok and his team mates can work with it. But at international level last season he got caught out. Also as has been mentioned frequently above the wingers havent been greatly used in any case...as they should be.

May however has a huge armoury as a winger. He is rediculously quick, has a good step, and despite a slight looking frame is actually quite strong. He also has played FB and centre, so has a decent defence and is good under the high ball...

What he needs to do is use a bit of intelligence and experience to know when to back himself going forward in a straight line using his pace...and when to go on a mazy run through crowds. Mazy runs can be effective at the right time..but he needs to get that decision making part of his game right and he could be very good.

Im Looking forward to seeing the new bigger stronger and faster version of Nowell getting a game on the wing aswell.

I'm a massive fan and advocate of May, but he needs to take his chance this Autumn. 

He had some wonderful moments during the six nations, but unfortunately more of his runs ended badly than good. He seemed to have improved in NZ and was actually backing his pace (as he blooming well should), but didn't see much ball. 

He's such a wonderful player to watch at Gloucester and is such a threat, but if he doesn't perform over the next few weeks, it'll be the high road for him for a while I reckon.

I rate Goode as a club player but in internationals I'm always afraid of seeing him go into contact, get picked up and dumped back 5 metres and turned over. Brown has that dog and physicality you need to make ground against top players.

WELL-PAST-IT wrote:Bathite,

At AP level I cannot criticise Ford, but against the AB and Boks, I could see them running the likes of Nonu, Reid and Savea at him all day if Eastmond was at 12. I would have no problems with him if Burrell or Barritt were at 12.

It is just the fact that both are very small for International players and I feel that with both of them there they would be targeted and I suspect would fail to cope all match. Either one with support either side would be fine with me.

I'm sure that they would run down his channel, but the argument for me is, do you want someone that will hold their own in that channel, or someone that will pull their opposite numbers out of the line, confuse them, prevent them from playing their natural game and potentially adding more points to the score when in possession. Think that if you set our your team to try and stop NZ or SA, then you'll struggle, you need to be able to cause them problems defensively, put them off their game and maybe picking somone like Eastmond facilitates that better? Of course it is a risk, but one worth taking in my mind.

No 7&1/2 wrote:Not for England, barring Manu on the wing.

Didnt they have half a game vs Italy in the last 6N? I guess they would have played together at Leicester but its a combo I'd love to see.

I do think Manu's positives are too strong to ignore if hes available. I dont think hes that bad at fitting in, and he can pass. Maybe its a question of familiarity

If the 10 and 12 are doing their job then they can always bypass him if there is space anyways.

mid_gen wrote:I rate Goode as a club player but in internationals I'm always afraid of seeing him go into contact, get picked up and dumped back 5 metres and turned over. Brown has that dog and physicality you need to make ground against top players.

The Goode 'zig zag dump' routine just makes me sad. We have talked about him a great deal in the past, the end verdict is that he might have made a good international FH but at FB in anything other than a kick fest he is a worry (though he did do OK in THAT match vs NZ)

I havent watched all the summer matches but there was a suggestion that NZ had worked out ways of dropping Brown?.

Think that if you set our your team to try and stop NZ or SA, then you'll struggle, you need to be able to cause them problems defensively, put them off their game and maybe picking somone like Eastmond facilitates that better? Of course it is a risk, but one worth taking in my mind..

Totally agree ive said many times on here...when are we actually going to pick some players to make THEM worry about us for a change. Eastmond can tackle...but he'll get at them in attack.

I think him and manu could be a great combo.

Ford 10, Manu 12, Joseph 13
May, Roku on the wing.
Watson Fb

Eastmond on the bench - covering all positions as he played them all in rugby league and was a decent goal kicker too


Now in attack that could be a real handfull

By the way 7 players to be added to the squad on sunday evening. I have heard these will include Slade, Watson and Kvesic - injuries permitting.

lostinwales wrote:

No 7&1/2 wrote:Not for England, barring Manu on the wing.

Didnt they have half a game vs Italy in the last 6N? I guess they would have played together at Leicester but its a combo I'd love to see.

I do think Manu's positives are too strong to ignore if hes available. I dont think hes that bad at fitting in, and he can pass. Maybe its a question of familiarity

If the 10 and 12 are doing their job then they can always bypass him if there is space anyways.

Manu's great at pulling in defenders, but he needs someone to be on his shoulder for him to pop a pass too. I think its another area where England need to work on - support play.

So in summary England need to:

1) Improve their collision work
2) Improve their clearing out work at the rucks
3) Become more offensive in the tackle...ie knock players back
4) Improve support work
5) Bring the wings in to play more

BUt aside from that they're doing champion

GeordieFalcon wrote:So in summary England need to:

1) Improve their collision work
2) Improve their clearing out work at the rucks
3) Become more offensive in the tackle...ie knock players back
4) Improve support work
5) Bring the wings in to play more

BUt aside from that they're doing champion

Think we already knew there was plenty to improve on! They are capable of doing points 1, 2 & 3, just not in all matches so that needs to be looked at.

Well thats true Nathan ...i just wonder if the current players are able to move up to the next level.

Ie Do the current back 5 both as a pack and individually - Launchbury, Lawes, Wood, Robshaw, Billy V have the aggression, power, pace, ruthlessness and intelligence to smash the ruck area like we have seen the SH teams do....especially in defensive scenarios - their counter rucking is just brutal.
I would like to think so...but im not sure.

Its times like this when the generally loathed Calum Clark does appeal...as he is ruthless...very aggressive, big and powerful. And it would appear that he's doing that regularly for Saints so far this season.

nathan wrote:

lostinwales wrote:

No 7&1/2 wrote:Not for England, barring Manu on the wing.

Didnt they have half a game vs Italy in the last 6N? I guess they would have played together at Leicester but its a combo I'd love to see.

I do think Manu's positives are too strong to ignore if hes available. I dont think hes that bad at fitting in, and he can pass. Maybe its a question of familiarity

If the 10 and 12 are doing their job then they can always bypass him if there is space anyways.

Manu's great at pulling in defenders, but he needs someone to be on his shoulder for him to pop a pass too. I think its another area where England need to work on - support play.

He also needs his winger not to be outnumbered on defence. Quite regularly I've heard complaints he didn't give the ball to his winger, who was on his own against 2+ defenders. Asking for a turnover on an isolated wing.

I see haskell is in hospital with a viral infection...that could affect his chances v NZ?

GeordieFalcon wrote:I see haskell is in hospital with a viral infection...that could affect his chances v NZ?

I saw that too. The longer he stays in the more you wonder.

LondonTiger wrote:By the way 7 players to be added to the squad on sunday evening. I have heard these will include Slade, Watson and Kvesic - injuries permitting.

Cipriani?

Bathite wrote:

LondonTiger wrote:By the way 7 players to be added to the squad on sunday evening. I have heard these will include Slade, Watson and Kvesic - injuries permitting.

Cipriani?

Rumoured no, but we'll see. Be nice if Farrell gets through the next match.

Given Cipriani's recent performances you would have to hope he is next in line after the chosen 3. Right now I'd start him and wrap Farrell in cotton wool until he's proved form and fitness.

I guess the big hope is that Ford shows that he has what it takes.

I think Ford has shown enough progression since his move to Bath to deserve a chance this Autumn and I hope he grabs the bull by the horns. If Farrell does start, which I think Lancaster will do, Ford must be given some decent game time, not just 5 minutes at the end.

He's quite fortunate in that he'll be surrounded by players he's played with previously/currently. You would think Care will start at 9 therefore Youngs will come on alongside Ford which will be key. And whether he picks Eastmond or Twelvetrees at 12, he's got someone outside him who he knows. That'll be key to settling him in.

Welly wrote:

beshocked wrote:Londontiger I agree with that. I think it's a very underrated skill but so useful.

It's a skill I feel that both May and Nowell did not have in the 6 nations.

Brown and Burrell got their tries because of the supporting lines they ran.

Ashton has got most of his tries because of his ability to support and run good lines. Whatever people say about his defence - his try strike rate is one of the best in England currently and he's 9th on the England try scoring stats.

Ashton scored 11 of his 19 International tries with Flood at 10
Then scored 4 with Wilkinson @ 10
then scored 4 with Farrell @ 10

 Also he scored 15 tries under Martin Johnson

 His try ratio under coaches was

 15 tries in 19 matches for Johnson
  4 tries in 21 matches for Lancaster

 Huge, huge difference their.

The biggest difference was that under MJ, Ashton invariably played alongside Foden, with whom he had a telepathic understanding.

Foden (being an ex 9) is a terrific distributor with a good pass, Brown isn't. He looks good beating the first up defender(s) but then looks to set up a ruck and momentum is lost.

Ashton follows the 'momentum' of a move - no momentum and Ashton is far less effective. As are most predatory wingers to be fair.

Oh, and Nowell doesn't have the pace to be an international wing.

Hound of Harrow wrote:
The biggest difference was that under MJ, Ashton invariably played alongside Foden, with whom he had a telepathic understanding.

Foden (being an ex 9) is a terrific distributor with a good pass, Brown isn't. He looks good beating the first up defender(s) but then looks to set up a ruck and momentum is lost.

Ashton follows the 'momentum' of a move - no momentum and Ashton is far less effective. As are most predatory wingers to be fair.

Oh, and Nowell doesn't have the pace to be an international wing.

That's a good analysis, and certainly England haven't had a consistent enough back three for any of them to develop a good understanding. In some ways it's a shame we never got to see a Foden-Ashton-Brown combination, which might have worked well enough to offset Ashton's defensive issues.

I think you're a little harsh on Brown, though. He could pass more, but when he goes into a ruck it's generally because two or more defenders have been involved in bringing him down. If the ball is recycled quickly then you should have positive momentum because the opposition have been forced (by virtue of having multiple tacklers) to overcommit to the ruck. That generally worked for England last year - especially against Wales, but the ABs had figured it out and tended to try to isolate Brown or just not give him the ball. The key thing for England is to make sure they have support players who can get there quickly and win the ruck - something Roko probably helps with, and Yarde should be capable of especially as the understanding develops.

who can get there quickly and win the ruck

And we revert back to my questions previously...are we aggressive and fast enough in clearing out. I dont think we are anywhere near the SH teams in this regard.