England 38 man squad

First topic message reminder :

With the squad set to be selected on Wednesday, I'd be interested to see what players people would like to see included.
This would be my squad in no particular order...

01: J.Marler (Quins) A.Waller (Saints) M.Mullan (Wasps)*
02: R.Webber (Bath) D.Hartley (Saints) J.Gray (Quins)
03: D.Wilson (Bath) H.Thomas (Bath) K.Brookes (Newcastle)
04: J.Launchberry (Wasps) G.Kitchener (Leicester)
05: D.Attwood (Bath) C.Lawes (Saints)
06. T.Wood (Saints) J.Haskell (Wasps)
07. C.Robshaw (Quins) W.Fraser (Saracens) M.Kvesic (Gloucester)*
08: B.Vunipola (Saracens) B.Morgan (Gloucester)

Injured: Corbisiero, Vunipola, Youngs, Cole, Slater, Parling, Croft, Garvey, Fearns, Johnson, Dickinson.

09: D.Care (Quins) B.Youngs (Leicester) L.Dickson (Saints)
10: D.Cipriani (Sale) G.Ford (Bath) O.Farrell (Saracens)
11. M.Yarde (Irish) A.Watson (Bath)
12. B.Barritt (Saracens) K.Eastmond (Bath) B.Twelvetrees (Gloucester)*
13. L.Burrell (Saints) J.Joseph (Bath)
14. S.Rokodeguni (Bath) C.Ashton (Saracens)*
15. M.Brown (Quins) B.Foden (Saints) A.Goode (Saracens)

Injured: Allen, Tuilagi, Trinder.

*Marler isn't having the most consistent seasons, whilst Waller is thriving for Saints in Corbisiero's absence. I could see him pressing Marler for a spot in the test XV

*The back row is our most competitive area. With all 5 of our flanker options the official 7's for their clubs; Quins, Saints, Saracens, Wasps and Gloucester respectively. I expect to see Fraser or Kvesic given a starting birth against Samoa.

*I reluctantly picked Twelvetrees, due to his ineffectiveness against better sides. However, Lancaster has faith in him so i'll give him the spot. If Eastmond is fully fit, his form merits a starting position.

*The wings are very open. There are a number of players who must be close to selection including May (LW) Strettle (LW) Sharples (RW) Nowell (RW) and Wade (RW) Chris Ashton really is in the last chance saloon.

This would be my XV to play New Zealand in the first test. Subs in brackets.

01. J.Marler (A.Waller)
02. D.Hartley (R.Webber)
03. D.Wilson (H.Thomas)
04. J.Launchberry (C.Lawes)
05. D.Attwood
06. T.Wood (J.Haskell)
07. C.Robshaw
08. B.Vunipola
09. D.Care (B.Youngs)
10. O.Farrell (D.Cipriani)
11. A.Watson
12. L.Burrell (K.Eastmond)
13. J.Joseph
14. C.Ashton
15. M.Brown

This would be my XV to play Samoa. Mostly squad players to be given a chance. Subs in brackets.

01. A.Waller (M.Mullan)
02. R.Webber (J.Gray)
03. H.Thomas (K.Brookes)
04. C.Lawes (G.Kitchener)
05. D.Attwood
06. J.Haskell
07. W.Fraser (M.Kvesic)
08. B.Morgan
09. B.Youngs (L.Dickson)
10. G.Ford (D.Cipriani)
11. M.Yarde
12. K.Eastmond
13. J.Joseph
14. S.Rokodeguni
15. B.Foden (A.Goode)

The thing is, Poorfour, when Brown usually gets the ball he is deep and the oppo have 15 men in front of him. Great stuff that he can beat a couple of defenders first up, but I would rather see Brown then look to offload to someone in support to build momentum. Aus, and NZ look to do this, and SA with Le Roux are starting to as well.

GF - clearing a ruck is like a boxer throwing a punch. You have to clear 'through the man' like your aiming for a point 2'-3' beyond him. A boxer will typically have a follow through about 1' beyond the target. Otherwise the punch is just a tap to the head or body. It's just dynamics really.

http://www.englandrugby.com/news/farrell-eastmond-has-taken-his-game-another-level/?utm_source=Social&utm_medium=media&utm_campaign=2014

Lots of praise coming here...would suggest

Eastmond and Roko due to start the tests.
What say the below swapping on plays?

12 Eastmond
13 Barritt

If we are going that route I would rather see Burrell play instead of Barritt

Certain circles suggesting:

9 Care
10 Farrell
12 Eastmond
13 Barritt
14 Roko

That would put a huge amount of responsibility on the creativity on Eastmonds shoulders.

I was reading the conversation the SA guys were having about their midfield, and they were pretty much unanimously in agreement that Jan Serfontein couldn't play 13 effectively at international level because of his lack of pace, and most would have played anyone else with a bit of pace there (mainly Engelbrecht)

I reckon Serfontein has the run on Barritt any day, so why are we looking to play him at 13?

I see the point about Eastmond swapping to 13 on defensive plays, but that can't be relied on constantly, and if we do win turnover ball, we are going a long way before we get to a player with the pace to do damage

I also understand that 13 is seen as the most difficult position to defend in the backs, is it really wise to have one of two club 12s playing there? Manu being out does complicate things, but Burrell has at least played there at international level and been competent defensively and still posing an attacking threat with his lines, while Joseph has been in excellent form and is an out and out 13

Would be a strange selection in my eyes

England gained some serious momentum and picked up a few scalps along the way with Barrit and Tuilagi in the centres when Lancaster first took over, Twelvetrees hasn't done it for me and will soon be in Henry Slade's shadow (in my opinion).

Brad Barrit can play 12 or 13 and if we're gonna pick 3 centres in the match day squad then he has to be one of them for me.

Can anyone explain to me what Burrell has done wrong since the 6Ns compared to what Barritt has done right so that he is to be selected over him at 13?

I though Burrell made a good showing of himself in the 6Ns, offering good defensive ability/positioning in an relatively unfamiliar position and then subsequently followed that up with very good attacking performances, getting on the scoresheet in the process. Other than one break against NZ in his 17 caps, what has Barritt done on the attacking sense at international level?

Don't get me wrong, defensively he is the best in England, without a doubt, but I just see what he's done to be included. I really don't.

I think that's exactly it. He is seen as the defensive glue that holds the back line together.

Burrell is probably my favourite attacking 13 but if we're gonna have Eastmond at 12 then I'd like to solidify the backline with Barrit

Kruis looking really underpowered tonight, don't think he's quite ready for Int rugby personally

Aye, I reckon you're right. He's looked like he has struggled to make the hard yards so far.

His rucking, support and mauling hadn't looked too good either tbh

however, kruis looked better than farrell by some margin

best england players for sarries (apart from billy v who was v good) were strettle and ashton. oh dear.

the danger with Bomber going to "safe pairs of hands" as your selection strategy is that if they are short of game time, in addition to not having the ability to set the game alight, they may not even have safe pairs of hands.

And safe hands won't win a game if you go more then 3 points down, as per tonight. All the top sides can defend a simple kick chase gameplan well enough, they've had enough experience against SA who are far better then us at it.

100% agree. England without meaningful attacking threat might be able to grind it out against NH sides who are similarly impotent (currently all of them)

But against NZ or a resurgent AUS, we are asking for trouble.

Bomber needs to take risks in the postitions where risks can be covered.

ie, in the back row. But i'm not going to say who as i already have no skin on my forehead from banging it against the wall on this topic...

And having the worlds most dynamic 2nd row combination (which i believe we do have) isn't enough to combat the attacking potency of Aus, NZ, SA.

sure we could win a one-off against any of those sides. But if we have to beat 2 of them?

beshocked wrote:

Welly wrote:

beshocked wrote:Londontiger I agree with that. I think it's a very underrated skill but so useful.

It's a skill I feel that both May and Nowell did not have in the 6 nations.

Brown and Burrell got their tries because of the supporting lines they ran.

Ashton has got most of his tries because of his ability to support and run good lines. Whatever people say about his defence - his try strike rate is one of the best in England currently and he's 9th on the England try scoring stats.

Ashton scored 11 of his 19 International tries with Flood at 10
Then scored 4 with Wilkinson @ 10
then scored 4 with Farrell @ 10

 Also he scored 15 tries under Martin Johnson

 His try ratio under coaches was

 15 tries in 19 matches for Johnson
  4 tries in 21 matches for Lancaster

 Huge, huge difference their.

Yes it does make a massive difference.

Ashton doesn't have issues scoring tries with Farrell at 10 for Saracens so the problem is quite clearly Lancaster.

I haven't looked at the stats but don't the bulk of England's backline tries under Lancaster come from the centres?

Yes that stat pattern is quite misleading really. He scores tries with both Farrell and Hodgson at FH for Saracens. If we cast our minds back to that era 95% of those Ashton tries were scored from the Flood inside ball. Hape wasn't passing the damn thing out wide and neither was Tindall. It was the initial shock for many sides that England had actually used a winger that brought the tries. That was soon dealt with during and after the 6N of 2011 when Ashton scored 11? of those tries.

Ashton's issues in the current England side are two-fold. Firstly, he finds it difficult to defend in the way Lancs wants. That is wingers coming up into the line at times and at others dropping back to field. This is partly because his one-on-one tackling is not great and partly because he struggles to work with those around him.

Secondly, as has already been widely stated, England want conventional stay-wide wingers with strength and possibly pace. Ashton's strength doesn't lie in physicality (Rokoduguni) or pace (May). His greatest virtue is the tracking of an attack moving from right to left wing and through the middle, he's excellent at it. He's just not afforded the licence to roam in this team.

Burrell has a hand injury, which might keep him out of contention.

Henry Slade
Dave Ewers
Thomas Waldrom added to the squad!

As a Chiefs fan I'm not sure if it's a god or bad thing

I think that pretty much the only 'fan favourites' missing now are Cipriani and Fraser.

Still early days for Wade

Not sure Wade will ever be a Lancaster style player, only when his all round game improves, Lancaster only wants backs who can ruck and tackle and carry through heavy traffic

He wants two 12's and three 15's in the backline, in the end we'll get there

Oh and Yarde looked worryingly poor against Wasps, dropped some easy high balls and let others bounce

Nine players have been added to the squad:
http://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/0/rugby-union/29781298

Dave Ewers (Exeter)
Henry Slade (Exeter)
Thomas Waldrom (Exeter)
Alex Waller (Northampton)
Ben Foden (Northampton)
Henry Thomas (Bath)
Anthony Watson (Bath)
Richard Wigglesworth (Saracens)
Matt Kvesic (Gloucester)

So the 41 man squad is:

Loose heads: Joe Marler, Matt Mullan, Alex Waller
Tight heads: Kieran Brookes, Henry Thomas, David Wilson
Hookers: Dylan Hartley, Rob Webber
Locks: Dave Attwood, George Kruis, Joe Launchbury, Courtney Lawes
Flankers: Calum Clark, Dave Ewers, James Haskell, Matt Kvesic, Chris Robshaw, Tom Wood
No.8: Ben Morgan, Billy Vunipola, Thomas Waldrom

Scrum half: Danny Care, Lee Dickson, Ben Youngs, Richard Wigglesworth
Fly half: Owen Farrell, George Ford, Stephen Myler
Centres: Brad Barritt, Kyle Eastmond, Jonathan Joseph, Henry Slade, Billy Twelvetrees
Wings: Jonny May, Jack Nowell, Semesa Rokoduguni, Anthony Watson, Marland Yarde
Fullback: Mike Brown, Ben Foden, Alex Goode

Balance wise, I'm not sure why we have only 2 hookers but 7 flankers (8 if you include Waldrom). I wonder if that means they think Haskell is going to be out for a while.

If Burrell's hand injury turns out to be serious, that makes the centre partnership even more interesting. I'd be surprised if Lancaster pairs Barritt with Twelvetrees so we could see a relative newcomer fill at list one of those slots.

Would think some of the choices are just due to training but 36 and Barritt have played together before.

I see Haskell is out of hospital. I'd bet he is still going to miss the first test

Any news on Eastmonds rib injury people?

If he's out then I guess we'd play Barrett/Joseph which may be more balanced anyway.

If eastmonds injury stops him from training this week I wouldn't be surprised to see Twelvetrees and Barritt at 12 and 13, like it was 2013 6Ns.

I want Twelvetress to start anyway but I don't like the balance of the above partnership. With Burrell still unknown, the it has to be Joseph at 13 which isn't necessarily a bad thing as he makes very few mistakes and now, having had an extended run injury free, has hit some good form.

lostinwales wrote:I see Haskell is out of hospital. I'd bet he is still going to miss the first test

He looked really quite rough when Bayfs was interviewing him; still, the first test is still nearly 2 weeks away.

Some injury updates:

Players' chief Damian Hopley insists the injury problems afflicting England are cyclical rather than evidence of an increased rate of attrition in the game.

Seven British and Irish Lions in Alex Corbisiero, Tom Youngs, Dan Cole, Mako Vunipola, Geoff Parling, Tom Croft and Manu Tuilagi have been ruled out of the entire QBE Series at Twickenham.
Injury updates on Billy Vunipola, Joe Marler, David Wilson and Luther Burrell are expected on Tuesday with Burrell likely to miss at least the opener against New Zealand on Saturday week

Add to that Hask perhaps struggling for fitness after his illness and Eastmond not training due to injury and their mounting up nicely.

Honestly I'm not sure Haskell would be included in the NZ squad (even though I personally would like him to be), so I'm not sure he's missing out too much. 

If he's on track for the Samoa game, I would love to see a backrow of:

6. Ewers
7. Haskell
8. Morgan

Massive!

yappysnap wrote:Some injury updates:

Players' chief Damian Hopley insists the injury problems afflicting England are cyclical rather than evidence of an increased rate of attrition in the game.

Seven British and Irish Lions in Alex Corbisiero, Tom Youngs, Dan Cole, Mako Vunipola, Geoff Parling, Tom Croft and Manu Tuilagi have been ruled out of the entire QBE Series at Twickenham.
Injury updates on Billy Vunipola, Joe Marler, David Wilson and Luther Burrell are expected on Tuesday with Burrell likely to miss at least the opener against New Zealand on Saturday week

Well it is quite a lot...but when we look at it (just my thoughts of course)

Corbs - Hasnt been fit a several seasons now...hence Marlers progression. I really am hugely sceptical that he'll make it back. Just seems so injury prone.
Tom Youngs - 3rd Choice Hooker behind Hartley and Webber
Dan Cole - A miss, but he played too much rugby. Hopefully he can come back fighting fit at his best.
Mako - Dont rate him. Needs to improve and i think Waller is ahead of him on performance anyway
Geoff Parling - Put in some great performances...but sadly for him this is probably our strongest position. He probably wont make it back now.
Croft - I would not have him in my squad anyway he's a luxury which would have fit in the 1990's monster pack...but not in the this one.
Manu - A big loss, but allows you to trial other players.

GeordieFalcon wrote:

yappysnap wrote:Some injury updates:

Players' chief Damian Hopley insists the injury problems afflicting England are cyclical rather than evidence of an increased rate of attrition in the game.

Seven British and Irish Lions in Alex Corbisiero, Tom Youngs, Dan Cole, Mako Vunipola, Geoff Parling, Tom Croft and Manu Tuilagi have been ruled out of the entire QBE Series at Twickenham.
Injury updates on Billy Vunipola, Joe Marler, David Wilson and Luther Burrell are expected on Tuesday with Burrell likely to miss at least the opener against New Zealand on Saturday week

Well it is quite a lot...but when we look at it (just my thoughts of course)

Corbs - Hasnt been fit a several seasons now...hence Marlers progression. I really am hugely sceptical that he'll make it back. Just seems so injury prone.
Tom Youngs - 3rd Choice Hooker behind Hartley and Webber
Dan Cole - A miss, but he played too much rugby. Hopefully he can come back fighting fit at his best.
Mako - Dont rate him. Needs to improve and i think Waller is ahead of him on performance anyway
Geoff Parling - Put in some great performances...but sadly for him this is probably our strongest position. He probably wont make it back now.
Croft - I would not have him in my squad anyway he's a luxury which would have fit in the 1990's monster pack...but not in the this one.
Manu - A big loss, but allows you to trial other players.

Manu's a huge loss and is irreplaceable, but like you said GF it is a good chance to look at other options. 

Given his Premiership form, I'm chuffed to see Joseph back in the squad and I'm tipping him to have a really good Autumn. 

Anyone else betting on a new or experienced squad member to have a good turn out this Autumn?

I was really excited but the ever increasing number of injuries has dampened that somewhat. I will be gutted if the bufoon Twelvetrees is anywhere near the starting 15!

Rumour has it that Erinle is packing his kit bag!

Saw that Brian Moore tweeted this article earlier today and thought it was quite interesting.

http://www.saracens.com/ashton-and-strettle-set-the-pace/

Quite a strike rate the 2 of them have at premiership level.

I'm not an England supporter and the 4 wingers that England have selected don't fill me with fear. I would be more worried as an opposing fan or player if Ashton or Strettle were in the team especially the form they are in just now.

That means i might be waiting for the call Eddie....better dust off the old boots....

But then majestic....we then fall in to that vicious circle again.

Ashton plays very well for his club...he's never not played well. He's just not used at this level...and no other winger really has been either.

Until the coaches get the tactics right...we'll still be having this debate about which wing to pick leading up to the next world cup in 2019!!

True his form for England has been patchy when he has played in recent games. He does seem to have stepped it up this season though at Saracens and is putting in more effort around the pitch and seems to be enjoying his rugby more.
Come the 6 nations I would be more fearful of Ashton and strettle on the wings than someone like Yarde who I don't rate and doesn't fill me with dread.
It is true England's tactics aren't getting the best out of their back division which for me I hope continues!!

Ashton's form recovered for Saracens last season but still couldn't replicate it for England. Personally don't think he's been near his best so far this season and Strettle is more deserving although when given previous opportunities his finishing hasn't been of a high enough standard.

"Ashton has scored 24 tries in 34 Saracens matches since the start of last season, while Strettle has scored 20 tries in 35 matches over the same period. They have scored a combined total of ten tries in the eight matches played by Saracens so far this season"

When I look at the England squad I can't help but feel some confusion. Can one of the England fans on here offer some explanation as to why SL is ignoring his two form wings? I'm genuinely surprised - is he looking for a more youthful back line for the future? I think most test coaches would love to have a couple of back three players who know each other well in such good form.

Ive always said a fit and firing Ashton used properly running off the FH or on the shoulder of a Bill V run or Ben Morgan etc is a serious weapon in your armoury.

I actually rate Yarde very highly and think he will come good. He's just struggling a wee bit at the moment. he has pace, and power.

I also am a huge fan of Johnny May but he drives me crazy at the same time. Once he begins to run straight and back his pace he will be serious player.

I rate Nowell very highly aswell...but i see him as a FB more than a winger.

Strettle when he first appeared looked really lethal. Reminded me a lot of the old french style wingers, not the biggest but strong enough, fast and elusive. There was that fabulous break at the start of that game from hell against Wales which ended with him getting a broken foot (and Ben Kay at flank ) and that seemed to be it. I think these days he is a smart player but doesnt have the kind of exceptional attributes that could help him succeed at international level.

We do have a lot of potential on the wings, its just not yet proven. (also )

offload wrote:"Ashton has scored 24 tries in 34 Saracens matches since the start of last season, while Strettle has scored 20 tries in 35 matches over the same period. They have scored a combined total of ten tries in the eight matches played by Saracens so far this season"

When I look at the England squad I can't help but feel some confusion.  Can one of the England fans on here offer some explanation as to why SL is ignoring his two form wings?  I'm genuinely surprised - is he looking for a more youthful back line for the future?  I think most test coaches would love to have a couple of back three players who know each other well in such good form.

Strettle and Ashton have had their chances to claim the England shirt, but unfortunately neither has performed to the necessary standard in an England shirt recently. Both have the potential to be great, but when they've had the opportunity they haven't shown it.

I'm happy for SL to look at other in form options. If they do not pan out this Autumn perhaps Strettle and Ashton will get another go in the 6N.

nobbled wrote:

offload wrote:"Ashton has scored 24 tries in 34 Saracens matches since the start of last season, while Strettle has scored 20 tries in 35 matches over the same period. They have scored a combined total of ten tries in the eight matches played by Saracens so far this season"

When I look at the England squad I can't help but feel some confusion.  Can one of the England fans on here offer some explanation as to why SL is ignoring his two form wings?  I'm genuinely surprised - is he looking for a more youthful back line for the future?  I think most test coaches would love to have a couple of back three players who know each other well in such good form.

Strettle and Ashton have had their chances to claim the England shirt, but unfortunately neither has performed to the necessary standard in an England shirt recently. Both have the potential to be great, but when they've had the opportunity they haven't shown it.

I'm happy for SL to look at other in form options. If they do not pan out this Autumn perhaps Strettle and Ashton will get another go in the 6N.

Name a winger who has?

SL seems to like wingers who can create their own chances rather than finish team moves (perhaps because we don't create many??).

Ashton & Strettle don't seem to fit this mould. Lets go with May & Nowell and have a couple of wingers who'll need pointing to where the try line is.

Yarde. Ropey form for Quins this season (although he seems to be turning that around now) but he has played well for England so far.

With Wade out I think Ashton is in direct competition with Rokoduguni for the right wing. Close call - both playing well this season and scoring tries.

Burrell and Tuilagi both missing is a kick in the nads, but the form of Eastmond and Joseph this season must come as mighty consolation for Lancaster.

funnyExiledScot wrote:Yarde. Ropey form for Quins this season (although he seems to be turning that around now) but he has played well for England so far.

With Wade out I think Ashton is in direct competition with Rokoduguni for the right wing. Close call - both playing well this season and scoring tries.

Burrell and Tuilagi both missing is a kick in the nads, but the form of Eastmond and Joseph this season must come as mighty consolation for Lancaster.

I didn't think Ashton was in the squad.

Is Burrell definitely out then?

GeordieFalcon wrote:

nobbled wrote:

offload wrote:"Ashton has scored 24 tries in 34 Saracens matches since the start of last season, while Strettle has scored 20 tries in 35 matches over the same period. They have scored a combined total of ten tries in the eight matches played by Saracens so far this season"

When I look at the England squad I can't help but feel some confusion.  Can one of the England fans on here offer some explanation as to why SL is ignoring his two form wings?  I'm genuinely surprised - is he looking for a more youthful back line for the future?  I think most test coaches would love to have a couple of back three players who know each other well in such good form.

Strettle and Ashton have had their chances to claim the England shirt, but unfortunately neither has performed to the necessary standard in an England shirt recently. Both have the potential to be great, but when they've had the opportunity they haven't shown it.

I'm happy for SL to look at other in form options. If they do not pan out this Autumn perhaps Strettle and Ashton will get another go in the 6N.

Name a winger who has?

Fair comment - but that may explain why Roko is being looked at. Doesn't really explain why Yarde is still in given recent form. It's all a mystery to me!