Roy Jones Jr vs ATG at middelweight/super middle

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Simple topic Guys.

RJJ at the peak of his powers vs greats h2h at middle or super.

Who do you think could beat him and why?

Not sure about Robinson, his post retirement career gets brought up too much for my liking, it's the Lamotta, Graziano and Wade fights we should look at really. When he returned after Maxim he lost to guys he wouldn't have done prior to that, the Robinson who beat Graziano trounces Basilio.

Best fighter since Leonard for me and at Middleweight i would only put him behind Monzon, Greb, Robinson and possible Hagler among all time Middleweights

on record I would put him behind then fighters but not on h2h

I see what you're saying, Hammersmith, as the Robinson who returned in the mid fifties after that initial retirement was getting on in years and was definitely past his peak, while obviously still being a great fighter. But even before then there were warning signs that he was less formidable and dominant as a Middle than he had been as a Welter; he struggled badly with Luc Van Dam before getting out of jail with what most considered an illegal shot, was beaten fair and square (and relatively clearly) by Turpin and had some problems in the rematch, too.

After about eight pretty even rounds he took La Motta apart in phenomenal style to take the belt, and he did look breathtaking there, but he'd already long since figured Jake out after all those previous fights. Cracking performance, that one borderline knockdown aside, against Graziano with a beautiful knockout to end it, and it's definitely a reminder of how good Ray still was at 160, but Graziano wasn't as good as Basilio or Fullmer.

I agree with you that anything from about 1955 onwards with Robinson needs to be taken with a bit of context and isn't a totally accurate reflection of how good a Middleweight he was but at the same time I don't think some of those disappointing results can be totally overlooked as he was still good enough to turn the tide in rematches against guys like Basilio and Fullmer. Robinson was never as comfortable fighting inside as he was at mid range or on the outside and sometimes he didn't show as much regard for defence as he should have done, so I don't totally rule out those guys being able to beat him at 160 even before that retirement....But you're right, the odds are at least a bit longer on that front.

I'd say Gerald McClellan had a shout. McClellan would have had to acclimatise to 168 correctly (and reuniting with Steward wouldn't have hurt). McClellan out scored Jones as an amateur and if he could landed flush (as he managed to on just about everyone he faced) he had the power to put Jones over - possibly out.

I don't feel it's fair to compare Jones to middleweights. He was a natural 168 pounder and as pointed out previously there hasn't been anyone who could have troubled him in the division's short history.

Jones lacked a nemesis, but this is possibly because he was so good. Griffin came close to being one, but we all know what happened in the rematch.

McClellan would have definitely stood a chance. Power to burn, as well as good speed (and the amateur win). But is it cynical of me to think Jones would have avoided that fight?

There are still question marks against Jones for me: namely the positive steroid result.

That positive test result has to be a black mark against Jones to some degree, you're right SRB. That said, had he only been a WBC and WBA champion rather than a WBC, WBA and IBF champion, there wouldn't have been any positive test for all intents and purposes, or any controversy. The substance that came up on his test (as well as his opponent Richard Hall's, oddly enough) was only prohibited by the latter. Whether that's because the IBF are too stringent or the WBC and WBA too lenient on these matters is a different story, mind you.

I think Jones did 'prove' that the substance he tested positive for was used in some every day, over-the-counter medications - he'd fractured his wrist in his previous fight (against David Telesco) and was apparently using whatever substance which contained the illegal substance as part of the healing process. As the medication was readily available to anyone and it didn't require any shady, secretive goings on to attain it (unlike the stuff Mosley admitted using, for example) I think the authorities felt they didn't really have solid enough grounds to prove that Jones was making a conscious effort to juice. He'd held the IBF belt for about a year before that stage and for another three years after, and in that time never failed any of their other tests, which I believe helped him out.

Personally, while there was maybe some grey area, I think he should have been stripped of the IBF belt - rules are rules, after all. But the IBF seemingly have always set their stall out to allow their champions a hell of a lot of leeway, with Lamont Peterson today being a glaringly obvious example. James Toney, too; he was allowed to keep his IBF Middleweight title in 1991 despite failing to make the weight for his defence against Francesco Dell'Aquila. If the IBF like you enough, they won't strip you (unless your name's Jamie McDonnell).

Anyway, back to the point of the article and Jones-McClellan. The same criticism that Mayweather gets now was sometimes thrown at Jones, namely that their matchmaking only became 'careful' or 'selective' once they'd established themselves as a big name and the clear pound for pound number one. Up until the time of McClellan's injury, there wasn't any suggestion that Jones' opposition was sub-par in general and he'd just outclassed the pound for pound number two in a fight where he'd been the slight underdog.

That would suggest that Jones would have faced McClellan in 1995 as the public demand would have been too great for it not to happen, and Jones was still hungry and driven, another thing which people began to question in later years. Given that Roy says he never felt better than he did at 168, I reckon he'd have taken the challenge, but we'll never know.

McClellan did have decent speed and a murderous punch, and at least a concept of boxing as others said. But as Jackson showed for four rounds before McClellan found that pay-off shot, he was always easy to hit and his career shows that if you took him past the first few rounds, he tailed off and generally wasn't as dangerous. Generally his biggest wins came against guys who were right in front of him having a ruck.

I still think an early blow out is the only way McClellan could have beaten Jones. I give him a better chance than most of doing that, of course, but I'd still go with Jones pretty conclusively. Then again, I don't tend to rate McClellan as highly as others.

As far as I'm aware, Jones tested six times over the limit for use of an anabolic steroid against Richard Hall (Hall also tested positive).

The Jones camp claimed (in the press) that it was either a) a decongestant or b) a dodgy over the counter potion called "ripped fuel". Neither of these excuses were ever substantiated (nor the specific steroid) as Jones never produced a second sample so that the IBF could test him for specific steroids. Jones didn't ever "prove" anything - other than admitting he took an unspecified anabolic steroid.

The most sickening thing about it all was that not one US media outlet picked up the story. It was, to all intents and purposes, swept under the carpet (I believe it was a French reporter who eventually ran with it). Despite admitting his guilt, the IBF also didn't take action other than the request for a second sample. Why request a second sample when the fighter has admitted guilt?

Jones was a steroid cheat. Whether that was the case throughout his career is something we don't yet know. He tested negative in his next two contests (which you'd expect after being caught red-handed). It is remarkable how much mud is thrown at Pacquiao (quite rightly in my book) but not Jones.

Unfortunately, until boxing changes it's testing policies (if it ever does) any fighter who is physically unusual will have question marks hanging over them.

It was Androstenedione which as Chris was only banned by the IBF and at that time wasn't on the WADA banned list which it actually is now.

Hammersmith harrier wrote:It was Androstenedione which as Chris was only banned by the IBF and at that time wasn't on the WADA banned list which it actually is now.

I don't believe that was ever proven. Didn't the Jones camp make that claim?

I'm pretty sure jones McClellan would have happened... Benn was seen as a belt picking exercise, to allow for a unification clash.

I think manny steward described McClellan as the guy with the best physical attributes he ever trained. Manny said a lot of things about a lot of his fighters but certainly g man appeared to have speed, power a good chin etc. His career was a strange one, misguided early on, for which steward has taken responsibility, he becomes a complete ko artist, terrifies everyone, falls out with manny, ends up fighting benn with stan johnson in the corner.

I think had steward not been so hearns focussed, the McClellan story could have turned out differently, but he was an angry man and maybe just never had it between the ears. I recall manny also saying they didn't really see eye to eye on boxing/training matters. Whichever, smart money is jones on points, but those first 5 rounds would be live ones.

It was being talked up but Jones didn't want to deal with King (who repeatedly requested options on him in negotiations) and so major stumbling blocks remained.

If Benn hadn't beaten the count I think King would have aimed McClellan at Liles and maybe Nunn.

Maybe haz. I guess liles most likely to pick up another strap though nunn's name would have helped the cv.

Although I was cheering benn on that night, I did feel it had robbed us of a superfight... Though sadly,  McClellan of much more than that obviously.

hazharrison wrote:As far as I'm aware, Jones tested six times over the limit for use of an anabolic steroid against Richard Hall (Hall also tested positive).

The Jones camp claimed (in the press) that it was either a) a decongestant or b) a dodgy over the counter potion called "ripped fuel". Neither of these excuses were ever substantiated (nor the specific steroid) as Jones never produced a second sample so that the IBF could test him for specific steroids. Jones didn't ever "prove" anything - other than admitting he took an unspecified anabolic steroid.

The most sickening thing about it all was that not one US media outlet picked up the story. It was, to all intents and purposes, swept under the carpet (I believe it was a French reporter who eventually ran with it). Despite admitting his guilt, the IBF also didn't take action other than the request for a second sample. Why request a second sample when the fighter has admitted guilt?

Jones was a steroid cheat. Whether that was the case throughout his career is something we don't yet know. He tested negative in his next two contests (which you'd expect after being caught red-handed). It is remarkable how much mud is thrown at Pacquiao (quite rightly in my book) but not Jones.

Unfortunately, until boxing changes it's testing policies (if it ever does) any fighter who is physically unusual will have question marks hanging over them.

No, the most sickening thing about it all was the fact he felt he needed drugs to beat the part time Police Officer Richard Hall. Jones had him in dire straits in the very first round and then proceeded to f*ck about until the 11th. The thing that annoys me even more is that fact I had managed to convince a metal and boxing loving girl to let me stay over at hers and watch it having extolled the virtues of RJJ over SLAYER and beers during the evening. After the first round, the look of adoration in her eyes made me (metaphorically) rubs my hands with glee and scream "Get in, son!" however as the next ten rounds dragged on she looked at me as if to say "This f*ckwit is useless but not as useless as you Mr I know a bit about boxing" and suffice it to say that she wasn't as enthusiastic about letting me stay the night as she'd been after round one.

Roy Jones deserves to die!

haha

Ouch, Dave. Very ouch.

My favourite bit of the whole Hall-Jones saga was Larry Merchant afterwards. "That referee should be pistol whipped for letting that fight continue!"

Not the old 'that fight was rubbish, you're not getting any now' excuse. If I had a penny for every bird that had fobbed me off with that one, I'd be a rich man Dave.

A mate's wife was mad keen on boxing too and I had an on/off enjoyable evening chatting to her in the pub. It was great because she had fantastic knockers...it was bad because her breath would flatten a rhino.

But I stand by my earlier comment, the RJJ/Richard Hall fight is the reason Roy should be forever marked down in Boxing history/be put to death. Imagine the flak David Haye would get if he'd taken 11 rounds to stop Audley and you get some idea of how strongly I feel about that fight.

Unlike Audley, though, Hall could at least stand up to big shots without becoming a quivering wreck and came to have a real go, Dave.

Aaron Snowell in Hall's corner should count himself lucky that his complete negligence didn't result in Hall getting seriously, seriously injured. Why he didn't show any inclination of throwing the towel at so many different points of that fight, or why he didn't retire Hall between rounds any point after the third, I'll never know.

Oh hang on, I do know actually - Snowell was just about the biggest to**er in the sport according to more or less everybody who had the misfortune to spend any time with him!

88Chris05 wrote:Unlike Audley, though, Hall could at least stand up to big shots without becoming a quivering wreck and came to have a real go, Dave.Aaron Snowell in Hall's corner should count himself lucky that his complete negligence didn't result in Hall getting seriously, seriously injured. Why he didn't show any inclination of throwing the towel at so many different points of that fight, or why he didn't retire Hall between rounds any point after the third, I'll never know.

Oh hang on, I do know actually - Snowell was just about the biggest to**er in the sport according to more or less everybody who had the misfortune to spend any time with him!

Time, Jack Daniels and the prospect of getting laid coupled with the dawning realization that it wasn't going to happen may have altered my perception of that fight. I recall it being a dreadful mismatch that could have feasibly been stopped in the opening round

It was a terrible mis-match, Dave, don't get me wrong - but Hall earned every penny of his money and then some is what I mean. Just a shame he had to give 10% of it to Mr Snowell!

He was in the corner for Tyson against Douglas wasn't he, another fight in which he showed gross incompetence, all he had to remember was an end swell.

Yep, that's him, Hammersmith. Pretty sure the captain spent a bit of time with or around Snowell down under back in the early nineties. As I remember his appraisal of the bloke wasn't any better than the countless others I've read.

Chris - was the Captain involved in the boxing industry then?

88Chris05 wrote:Yep, that's him, Hammersmith. Pretty sure the captain spent a bit of time with or around Snowell down under back in the early nineties. As I remember his appraisal of the bloke wasn't any better than the countless others I've read.

Aaron Snowell....The guy Witherspoon told to shut up when he was fighting Pinky T...

Yes Toppy.........The Captain was known as a Poor Man's chuvalo back then !!

TRUSSMAN66 wrote:

88Chris05 wrote:Yep, that's him, Hammersmith. Pretty sure the captain spent a bit of time with or around Snowell down under back in the early nineties. As I remember his appraisal of the bloke wasn't any better than the countless others I've read.

Aaron Snowell....The guy Witherspoon told to shut up when he was fighting Pinky T...

Yes Toppy.........The Captain was known as a Poor Man's chuvalo back then !!

Not sure Toppy, just know that he lived in Oz for a little while (attended the Fenech-Nelson rematch in Melbourne, too) and spent quite a bit of time around Snowell as well as guys like Frankie Randall, who apparenly was a great fella.

Think he mentioned meeting Arguello a couple of times, too. Whatever field he is / was in, it's obviously not a bad one for making the odd connection here or there!

88Chris05 wrote:Not sure Toppy, just know that he lived in Oz for a little while (attended the Fenech-Nelson rematch in Melbourne, too) !

Feel sorry for Randall.............Had he not got the shaft second time around against JC he'd have been a bigger name...Some people thought he beat Rosario in London too.....Unlucky fighter !!.Think the Captain said he saw the Earl's court fight..

Funny thing about Fenech-Nelson 2 was when it got stopped and that squirt from Fenech's corner got in Azumah's face.........Wish he'd decked him !!..Reminded me of Galindez - Rossman 2..

TRUSSMAN66 wrote:

88Chris05 wrote:Not sure Toppy, just know that he lived in Oz for a little while (attended the Fenech-Nelson rematch in Melbourne, too) !

Feel sorry for Randall.............Had he not got the shaft second time around against JC he'd have been a bigger name...Some people thought he beat Rosario in London too.....Unlucky fighter !!.Think the Captain said he saw the Earl's court fight..

Funny thing about Fenech-Nelson 2 was when it got stopped and that squirt from Fenech's corner got in Azumah's face.........Wish he'd decked him !!..Reminded me of Galindez - Rossman 2..

He got jibbed in that second fight. Tremendous performance to upset Chavez first time around. I can still remember McGuigan losing his s*** when Randall dropped Chavez late on (to cement what everyone suspected could be an upset of epic proportions).

Didn't Chavez hire Steward for the rematch (well, King MADE Steward train him) who was flabbergasted to see how little he actually did ion the gym?

hazharrison wrote:

TRUSSMAN66 wrote:

88Chris05 wrote:Not sure Toppy, just know that he lived in Oz for a little while (attended the Fenech-Nelson rematch in Melbourne, too) !

Feel sorry for Randall.............Had he not got the shaft second time around against JC he'd have been a bigger name...Some people thought he beat Rosario in London too.....Unlucky fighter !!.Think the Captain said he saw the Earl's court fight..

Funny thing about Fenech-Nelson 2 was when it got stopped and that squirt from Fenech's corner got in Azumah's face.........Wish he'd decked him !!..Reminded me of Galindez - Rossman 2..

He got jibbed in that second fight. Tremendous performance to upset Chavez first time around. I can still remember McGuigan losing his s*** when Randall dropped Chavez late on (to cement what everyone suspected could be an upset of epic proportions).

Didn't Chavez hire Steward for the rematch (well, King MADE Steward train him) who was flabbergasted to see how little he actually did ion the gym?

One of my favorite fighters JCC.....Unfortunately so was Meldrick who I thought got stiffed like Frankie !!............

The way Chavez outclassed and bullied Rosario after he'd destroyed Bramble is something I'll never forget..

What confidence the guy had..

He started to look tired, bored even - maybe around the time he fought Andy Holligan. He'd drop his hands and loll back to the ropes - something I didn't see him do in his prime.

Underrated fighter. It must have been a horrid experience fighting him and being systematically broken down.

Some happy memories being dredged up by you guys....(apart from meeting Mr. Snowell, that is)

I was never connected with the boxing industry, apart from as an occasional face-first amateur (and I do mean amateur amateur rather than the guys who fight for ABA titles and the like). I've been quite lucky that what I've done for a living over the years has enabled me to get about the place and occasionally indulge myself in some of my preferred sports watching.

Frankie Randall against Edwin Rosario at the York Hall remains possibly the best fight I've ever seen in the flesh. Applause rolled on for what seemed like hours. Frankie wasn't complaining about that verdict several years later - "No complaints," he said "could have gone either way." I met Frankie when I was living in Australia, as I think I mentioned before. He was sparring with Pedro Sanchez prior to Sanchez's eliminator against Kostya Tszyu for a tilt at a light-welterweight title, in part because Frankie was starting to get ready for his own fight against Juan Martin Coggi for the WBA strap. Aaron Snowell was in Sanchez's corner, which was bad luck for poor old Pedro, who was out of his depth anyway, but could have used something other than the class clown handing out advice between rounds. After that fight, you've never seen someone wash his hands of a fighter so fast. Sanchez hadn't followed instructions, said Snowell, who hinted darkly that Pedro wasn't really of sufficient standard for his astronomically enormous pedigree as a trainer.

As I said, Snowell was a total chump, boasting endlessly about his friendship with the then imprisoned Tyson (Mike should have realised what an idiot the guy was after the imbecility Snowell displayed during Tyson-Bruno I) and flashing a diamond the size of my fist which he said that Iron Mike had given him. Frankie on the other hand was good company. Massively superstitious, mind - he stopped wearing red trunks after he got splattered by Primo Ramos and had a number of other hocus-pocus routines that he followed religiously.

As Chris says, I did also see Nelson-Fenech II while I was in Oz, which made me some decent money on the betting front. Even better was the way that Zoomy silenced the home crowd; there's nothing better than thousands of mute Australians, I can tell you. Finally to Arguello. I met him once, in a departure lounge at Miami Airport.They say that you shouldn't meet your heroes but he was a shining and glorious exception to that rule. All-time top 20 fighter; possibly even better bloke, in my view.

Wish I had the time to do that sort of thing again these days. Not sure there are quite as many characters like Arguello now and far too many like Snowell, but boxing is still a sport like few others.

Some good dinner party matieral there, captain. I re-watched Randall-Rosario a couple of months back, actually. Had it a dead even draw, so pretty much in line with how Frankie himself saw it. Cracking fight with Rosario showing he could be more than just a banger when he wanted to be.

88Chris05 wrote:Some good dinner party matieral there, captain. I re-watched Randall-Rosario a couple of months back, actually. Had it a dead even draw, so pretty much in line with how Frankie himself saw it. Cracking fight with Rosario showing he could be more than just a banger when he wanted to be.

Always regarded as a top counter puncher in the US..

Couldn't be bothered starting a new thread so bumping this.

I saw on Facebook this morning that Roy had a fight, I'm assuming at the weekend, where he's offering challengers 100k if they can knock him out.

Tragic, and not in the sad way, in the absolutely embarrassing way

http://www.theguardian.com/sport/2016/mar/21/roy-jones-jr-beats-fan-boxing

Group Cpt Lionel Mandrake wrote:Couldn't be bothered starting a new thread so bumping this.

I saw on Facebook this morning that Roy had a fight, I'm assuming at the weekend, where he's offering challengers 100k if they can knock him out.

Tragic, and not in the sad way, in the absolutely embarrassing way

http://www.theguardian.com/sport/2016/mar/21/roy-jones-jr-beats-fan-boxing

Shows how far he has dropped in peoples expectations that he can fight someone with absolutely no real boxing experience, enough about Enzo though, fighting fans is surely a new low.

huw wrote:

Group Cpt Lionel Mandrake wrote:Couldn't be bothered starting a new thread so bumping this.

I saw on Facebook this morning that Roy had a fight, I'm assuming at the weekend, where he's offering challengers 100k if they can knock him out.

Tragic, and not in the sad way, in the absolutely embarrassing way

http://www.theguardian.com/sport/2016/mar/21/roy-jones-jr-beats-fan-boxing

Shows how far he has dropped in peoples expectations that he can fight someone with absolutely no real boxing experience, enough about Enzo though, fighting fans is surely a new low.

Is he the worst example in history of anyone in any sport carrying on well past their best? I can think of a few high profile comebacks that went very wrong, but he's never gone away and I can't think of anyone else that's hung about so long, and looked so bad.

According to Boxrec, this fight isn't on Jones' record. Was it just an exhibition fight?

Group Cpt Lionel Mandrake wrote:
Is he the worst example in history of anyone in any sport carrying on well past their best? I can think of a few high profile comebacks that went very wrong, but he's never gone away and I can't think of anyone else that's hung about so long, and looked so bad.

Possibly, mainly due to the distance between his best and where he is now.

Atila wrote:According to Boxrec, this fight isn't on Jones' record. Was it just an exhibition fight?

I read earlier that not only was it a sanctioned fight, it was also on PPV

AdamT wrote:Not sure about Hoppo beating Hagler at middlewight. Would actually fancy Toney to get the job done. I would certainly pick Jones to box Hagler to a unaminous decision.

I'm with you Adam, Hagler would match and better Hopkins in every apartment, and Hopkins doesn't hit hard enough to keep Hagler away, Marv was a lot more than just a slugger, wouldn't be bothered by Hopkins spoiling tactics either..

Prime Jones is a nightmare for anyone unbelievably gifted,but Nunn would be interesting.

Still say the rise to Heavy then coming back down in weight was RJJ's undoing, never the same fighter coming down.

Group Cpt Lionel Mandrake wrote:

Atila wrote:According to Boxrec, this fight isn't on Jones' record. Was it just an exhibition fight?

I read earlier that not only was it a sanctioned fight, it was also on PPV

The fight card also included pro wrestling and MMA. Jones must be desperate for money.

There a video clip of it on the sports page on the Independent on-line. Sad.

Beats pretty much everyone at middleweight for me except Robinson, Monzon, Leonard and Hearns and only Ward at Super Middleweight would have any chance of beating him.
For me RJJ is the best fighter the world has produced since Ray Leonard, he is even more a complete fighter than Floyd and Manny.

Only an idiot can think he would beat RJJ without any prior training, even this version of RJJ...

Saw some morons on Twitter saying how great it is Roy can still knock people out at his age... Couldn't even muster the strength to argue how ridiculous it is.

How long will it be before Jones fights a woman like Ronda Rousey in a battle of the sexes bout?

hogey wrote:Beats pretty much everyone at middleweight for me except Robinson, Monzon, Leonard and Hearns and only Ward at Super Middleweight would have any chance of beating him.
For me RJJ is the best fighter the world has produced since Ray Leonard, he is even more a complete fighter than Floyd and Manny.  

How is he more complete than Floyd?? arguably a better athlete and had a better offense at his peak. But I would argue Floyd had the better all around skills.

I'd argue that too Adam, think Roy maybe had the better reflexes, but perhaps Floyd's actual defensive nous seems to be a bit better, you can easily argue also, as soon as Roy's reflexes slowed he started getting KTFO'd whereas when Floyd has perhaps slowed a little (though it is less noticeable) he has adapted to any situation with success.

AlexHuckerby wrote:I'd argue that too Adam, think Roy maybe had the better reflexes, but perhaps Floyd's actual defensive nous seems to be a bit better, you can easily argue also, as soon as Roy's reflexes slowed he started getting KTFO'd whereas when Floyd has perhaps slowed a little (though it is less noticeable) he has adapted to any situation with success.

Your post is my thoughts exactly. Roy was a freak in his prime.