Ireland v England - Match Thread

[GunsGerms]

First topic message reminder :

I know I am two weeks early but Ireland v England on Sunday 1st March will possibly be the 6 nations decider as both teams are the only two teams still undefeated in the 6 nations so far this year.

There are many different angles, plots and sub plots to this game. Here are some of the many things at stake:

Reaburn Shield:

Ireland have held it for 4 consecutive games having defeated previous holders SA in November.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Raeburn_Shield

3rd place in rankings:



Triple Crown:

Only Ireland and England can still win this trophy and with due respect to Scotland and Wales who Ireland have yet to play to win it would be some achievement this year.

Grand Slam:

Only Ireland and England and win the slam.

6 nations title:
Obviously France and Wales are still in the running with only one loss but the bookies have Ireland and England as favorites at this point.

Millennium Trophy:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Millennium_Trophy

Eye on the WC:
The earliest Ireland and England could possibly meet at the WC is the Semi finals if they both win their pools and their quarter finals or both come runner up and win their quarters. Either way I think other fixtures such England v Wales and Ireland v France were more important for each nations WC preparations.

Ireland need one more win to tie their record of 10 sucessive wins.

Head to head record:
Overall: England 74 wins Ireland 46 wins
6Nations: England 7 wins Ireland 8 wins

Who is going to win and why?
http://www.espn.co.uk/six-nations-2015/rugby/story/256583.html
Phil Vickery predicts an England win.

Teams:

England:

Ireland:

[the-goon]

Does that worry England fans? If Brown doesn't make, you are a training or warm up injury away from having a championship player in the 23.

[bluestonevedder]

So glad May has been dropped....that he has been feted for so long on the back of one rare instance of poor NZ tackling

Poor defence may be, but not poor tackling as they failed to lay a hand on him.

Exactly, Every try ever scored could be due to 'poor tackling'. Sometimes, you've got to give the attacking player some credit. May destroyed them for that try. Granted, he hasn't done much since. 

I just hope being dropped doesn't ruin his confidence.

[lostinwales]

Shame about May. I do think he is worth persevering with, because he does do some amazing things and is generally pretty sound, but also excited to see what Nowell can do

[yappysnap]

I imagine they will have given him a list of things to go away and work on at least.

Unfortunately past history shows that for wingers at least once you're dropped, it is very difficult to get back in! Just ask Sharples, Ashton or Roko.

[SecretFly]

If May was dropped simply for that one 'overzealous' moment in attack then I think it a little too exacting a policy of 'drop the mistake guy'.

Players make mistakes all the time through their careers. And some of the best ones made the biggest ones. And often the best learning curve is to challenge the mistake maker to go back out again immediately and make up for any errors. That's a mind concentrated on improving.

[king_carlos]

Does that worry England fans? If Brown doesn't make, you are a training or warm up injury away from having a championship player in the 23.

Pennell is really a Prem player who is in the Championship out of loyalty - not something I criticise him for as it's a quality massively lacking in professional sport nowadays.

To answer the question it doesn't bother me though no. He's proven himself in the Premiership time and again playing for a poor side. Plus he's proven himself in Saxons and England XV games. Granted his cap didn't offer him the opportunity to test himself at test level however so he is still an unknown quantity.

As a replacement for Brown I'd be delighted with him as he has a similar skill set:

- His basics are all very good with his positioning sound and kicking game very reliable

- He may not be the quickest but is hard to put down, often beating the first man and making yards

- He's fearless (though maybe not to the extent of Brown) in the air and defensively

In all honesty I'm more concerned with the point LondonTiger makes that our back 3 will now contain a full back and two youngsters who I feel will end up with their best position being full back.

[nathan]

Brown has been ruled out then

[Rugby Fan]

If May was dropped simply for that one 'overzealous' moment in attack then I think it a little too exacting a policy of 'drop the mistake guy'.

It's more a case of not particular shining in his first outings, making his mark with that NZ try, then falling back to his previous level. He's got 13 caps and started all those matches.

He has played more for England than past and present players like Christian Wade, David Strettle, Charlie Sharples, James Simpson-Daniel, Anthony Watson, Marland Yarde, Jack Nowell, Semesa Rokoduguni, Topsy Ojo and Lesley Vainikolo. Banahan has more caps but started only 9 matches.

That may well be an indictment of past selection policy but it doesn't mean May has been given a particularly raw deal.

[majesticimperialman]

Both teams go in to this game unbeaten.

What happens if it end in a draw?......Will there be extra time?

Or will both teams remain unbeaten and the tournament is decided on points different.

[lostinwales]

Both teams go in to this game unbeaten.

What happens if it end in a draw?......Will there be extra time?

Or will both teams remain unbeaten and the tournament is decided on points different.

points difference

[SecretFly]

Both teams go in to this game unbeaten.

What happens if it end in a draw?......Will there be extra time?

Or will both teams remain unbeaten and the tournament is decided on points different.

???

You're too long in the tooth to be asking that question, majestic

But if England win in the end on points they'll be happy. Weren't altogether fully happy that we won on those terms last year though....

[majesticimperialman]

Both teams go in to this game unbeaten.

What happens if it end in a draw?......Will there be extra time?

Or will both teams remain unbeaten and the tournament is decided on points different.

points difference

Cheers.

[Marshes]

Roger Wilson and Billy holland added to the training squad ahead of the England game, think they will be used in any capacity during the campaign? Or just there for the training sessions? Neither man is a spring chicken or been mentioned much in contention for previous squads

[Notch]

Roger Wilson and Billy holland added to the training squad ahead of the England game, think they will be used in any capacity during the campaign? Or just there for the training sessions? Neither man is a spring chicken or been mentioned much in contention for previous squads

No, just tackle bag holders unless two or three more guys get injured between now and Sunday.

[Notch]

Brown has been ruled out then

In a sense, that balances out the absence of Heaslip.

[No 7&1/2]

Absence of Morgan did that.

[GunsGerms]

Absence of Morgan did that.

Thought everyone was raving about Haskell?

[No 7&1/2]

That's more to the injury to Wood.

[Marshes]

Dreading the absence of Heaslip. I like Murphy when I've seen him for Leinster but I wouldn't put him st the same level. You could see the destabilising effect it had on the back row against Italy. I'd say Heaslip is a bigger loss than Brown, just because England have Goode to come straight in.

[Gooseberry]

Absence of Morgan did that.

Plus Tuillagi, Care, Farrell Foden, Corbeserio, Lawes and Parling?

Heaslips a pretty good player mind.

[GunsGerms]

England do have a lot of injuries in fairness but I dont think they weaken the team too much.

[GunsGerms]

David Wilson is injured too isnt he?

[Marshes]

I think also Ireland are feeling the loss of Trimble so far this year too, last 6N his was instrumental in making breaks or being on the shoulder of the final passer at the right time. I like Zebo and Tommy Bowe and don't think they are playing badly at all, but we haven't yet seen them balance their defensive responsibilities with that bit of spark in attack to make real gains.

[Barney McGrew did it]

...Launchbury, Morgan, Farrell, Barritt.....

That Heaslip must be some kinda guy

[Notch]

True, but Brown at his best can be a match winner. I'm a mixture of relieved and concerned at this news of his absence. Relieved we don't have to play him, concerned for the player- the amount of concussions there are now is worrying. Though I wonder if it's been this bad for a while and they were simply ignored up until now.

Brown is a different kind of absentee to the likes of Farrell, Parling, Tuilagi and Care. They have replacements who are as good or better than those players. Even Corbisiero isn't missed while Marler continues his upward trajectory. I think of that list only Brown and Lawes can't be replaced nearly like for like.

In fact, I would much rather face Farrell than Ford.

[Marshes]

Absence of Morgan did that.

Plus Tuillagi, Care, Farrell Foden, Corbeserio,  Lawes and Parling?

Heaslips a pretty good player mind.

Don't forget Launchbury.

I think Ireland are disjointed too, missing Trimble, Heaslip and a players still coming back after long periods out in SOB and Healy. Defintely not to the same extent, but doesn't help.

[Marshes]

True, but Brown at his best can be a match winner. I'm a mixture of relieved and concerned at this news of his absence. Relieved we don't have to play him, concerned for the player- the amount of concussions there are now is worrying. Though I wonder if it's been this bad for a while and they were simply ignored up until now.

Brown is a different kind of absentee to the likes of Farrell, Parling, Tuilagi and Care. They have replacements who are as good or better than those players. Even Corbisiero isn't missed while Marler continues his upward trajectory. I think of that list only Brown and Lawes can't be replaced nearly like for like.

In fact, I would much rather face Farrell than Ford.

Lawes, Brown and Launchbury are the big losses for me. Brown is a match-winner and a leader, dead right, and hope he can put the concussions behind him (although he can be a head down player who throws his body on the line at times). But while they might miss him normally, I think Alex Goode has a good skillset for playing against Ireland (and did so in his last outing against them).

Heaslip loss for me is big in his work-rate, would have like to have that at the breakdown against the likes of Robshaw who will be all over the field

[lostinwales]

David Wilson is injured too isnt he?

Yes he is but we have a (when on form, and he seems to be) better replacement.

[GunsGerms]

David Wilson is injured too isnt he?

Yes he is but we have a (when on form, and he seems to be) better replacement.

I think Cole is great but Healy tends to fare well against him according to Leinster scrum coach Marco Caputo anyway.

http://www.irishtimes.com/sport/rugby/international/leinster-scrum-coach-says-dan-cole-will-rue-facing-his-bogey-man-cian-healy-1.2115174

Wilson had a great game v Ireland last year.

[lostinwales]

I am sure Cole was part of English scrums that have mashed up the Irish one, although that may have been in the absence of Healy.

Mind you I am also sure Cole doesnt tend to play so well when he gets his ankle stamped on, just like Healy can be a liability when the red mists descend. That is all history, lets hope it stays that way.

[GunsGerms]

I am sure Cole was part of English scrums that have mashed up the Irish one, although that may have been in the absence of Healy.

Mind you I am also sure Cole doesnt tend to play so well when he gets his  ankle stamped on, just like Healy can be a liability when the red mists descend. That is all history, lets hope it stays that way.

Zzzzzzzzzzzzzzz. Lets hope poor innocent Cole doesnt collapse mauls and lie on the ball then.

[Notch]

Mind you I am also sure Cole doesnt tend to play so well when he gets his  ankle stamped on, just like Healy can be a liability when the red mists descend. That is all history, lets hope it stays that way.

Good effort keeping it in the past there.

[GunsGerms]

Completely trolling for responses.

[asoreleftshoulder]

I am sure Cole was part of English scrums that have mashed up the Irish one, although that may have been in the absence of Healy.

Mind you I am also sure Cole doesnt tend to play so well when he gets his  ankle stamped on, just like Healy can be a liability when the red mists descend. That is all history, lets hope it stays that way.

Irish scrum troubles have tended to be on the TH side,I don't remeber Healy being in trouble against anyone in the last few years.He also doesn't really ever lose his cool,one incident several years ago is the exception that proves the rule.He had a discipline problem when he was younger but it was more about giving away needless penalties for things like tugging players back off the ball etc. not really anything dirty.

[GunsGerms]

He is and always will be a "thug" in England though. Bahaha.

[lostinwales]

Well its true. Healy is an exceptional player and although I am not an expert on him, I am fairly sure it was an exception. But that game he totally lost it.

[MichaelT]

I think the 2013 incident was more to do with troubles in the Irish camp spilling out - Kidney was on his last legs and even O'Driscoll got a yellow for stamping in Italy. It's rare you get winning teams playing like that, and Ireland only won one game that year.

[TheRugbyMaster]

England will win comfortably. May even be a rout.

[yappysnap]

I am sure Cole was part of English scrums that have mashed up the Irish one, although that may have been in the absence of Healy.

Mind you I am also sure Cole doesnt tend to play so well when he gets his  ankle stamped on, just like Healy can be a liability when the red mists descend. That is all history, lets hope it stays that way.

Irish scrum troubles have tended to be on the TH side,I don't remeber Healy being in trouble against anyone in the last few years.He also doesn't really ever lose his cool,one incident several years ago is the exception that proves the rule.He had a discipline problem when he was younger but it was more about giving away needless penalties for things like tugging players back off the ball etc. not really anything dirty.

Weren't there 3 incidents? all red card offences? I remember stamping, punching and a head butt

[HammerofThunor]

the exception that proves the rule.

Not sure who the first person was who changed it from "proofs" to "proves" but they deserve a medal for contributions to stupidity.

[Poorfour]

the exception that proves the rule.

Not sure who the first person was who changed it from "proofs" to "proves" but they deserve a medal for contributions to stupidity.

Not sure about that, actually. I thought it was always "proves" but that the meaning of "proves" has gradually shifted from "tests" (with the prospect of either success or failure) to "demonstrates" (with success taken as read). It is a bit of a nonsense as most people read it these days.

[EnglishReign]

If May was dropped simply for that one 'overzealous' moment in attack then I think it a little too exacting a policy of 'drop the mistake guy'.

Players make mistakes all the time through their careers.  And some of the best ones made the biggest ones.  And often the best learning curve is to challenge the mistake maker to go back out again immediately and make up for any errors.  That's a mind concentrated on improving.

Couldn't agree more.

It's no secret I'm a May fan but I have the pleasure of watching him play most weeks. His England form hasn't been great for whatever reason but he's still done more good than bad IMO and I think this is pretty shocking from Lancaster.

I genuinely fail to see what's special about Nowell. Wasn't he playing centre for Chiefs last week?! If May was dropped for someone else with as much potential, like Wade, I'd almost say fair enough.

Seems far too important a game to go testing a player that has a far worse strike rate than May, at club level alone. I realise I'm turning into Gloucester's version of Beshocked, just shoot me before I get quite that annoying.

[No9]

Best possible result (from my Welsh perspective) is

Eng/Ire - Draw
Wal/Fra - Wales win (France out of contention with 2 losses)
Sco/Ita - doesnt matter...

Wal/Ire - Wales win (puts Ireland out of the contention with 1 Loss and 1 Draw)
Eng/Sco - Scotland win (puts England out of contention with 1 Loss and 1 Draw)
Ita/Fra - wont matter...

Wales would only have to win in Rome to take the title before 4 Wins and 1 Loss.. No one would be able to beat that then.

So I'm hoping (fingers and toes crossed) for a Wales win but on this thread a Draw.

[Notch]

Can't remember the last time Scotland won at Twickenham

[Geordie]

God help Nowell if he misses a tackle and has an average game....the knives will be Getting sharpened. ...

[Poorfour]

If May was dropped simply for that one 'overzealous' moment in attack then I think it a little too exacting a policy of 'drop the mistake guy'.

Players make mistakes all the time through their careers.  And some of the best ones made the biggest ones.  And often the best learning curve is to challenge the mistake maker to go back out again immediately and make up for any errors.  That's a mind concentrated on improving.

Couldn't agree more.

It's no secret I'm a May fan but I have the pleasure of watching him play most weeks. His England form hasn't been great for whatever reason but he's still done more good than bad IMO and I think this is pretty shocking from Lancaster.

I genuinely fail to see what's special about Nowell. Wasn't he playing centre for Chiefs last week?! If May was dropped for someone else with as much potential, like Wade, I'd almost say fair enough.

Seems far too important a game to go testing a player that has a far worse strike rate than May, at club level alone. I realise I'm turning into Gloucester's version of Beshocked, just shoot me before I get quite that annoying.

I don't think it's that at all. Ireland are likely to kick and have strong kickers across their back three. By picking two wing/fullbacks in Watson and Nowell, Lancaster gives England a better chance to counter that. Nowell also takes on the "direct counterattacker" role from Brown - he's better at it than either May or Goode. I also believe Nowell is more solid defensively, which will be important in what should be a tight game.

Looks to me like a tactical change. In terms of form, Nowell was conspicuously good against Quins last weekend. Sadly.

Wade would be a defensive liability against an attack as carefully coached as Ireland. They would know how to lure him out of position and I'd expect them to exploit it.

[EnglishReign]

If May was dropped simply for that one 'overzealous' moment in attack then I think it a little too exacting a policy of 'drop the mistake guy'.

Players make mistakes all the time through their careers.  And some of the best ones made the biggest ones.  And often the best learning curve is to challenge the mistake maker to go back out again immediately and make up for any errors.  That's a mind concentrated on improving.

Couldn't agree more.

It's no secret I'm a May fan but I have the pleasure of watching him play most weeks. His England form hasn't been great for whatever reason but he's still done more good than bad IMO and I think this is pretty shocking from Lancaster.

I genuinely fail to see what's special about Nowell. Wasn't he playing centre for Chiefs last week?! If May was dropped for someone else with as much potential, like Wade, I'd almost say fair enough.

Seems far too important a game to go testing a player that has a far worse strike rate than May, at club level alone. I realise I'm turning into Gloucester's version of Beshocked, just shoot me before I get quite that annoying.

I don't think it's that at all. Ireland are likely to kick and have strong kickers across their back three. By picking two wing/fullbacks in Watson and Nowell, Lancaster gives England a better chance to counter that. Nowell also takes on the "direct counterattacker" role from Brown - he's better at it than either May or Goode. I also believe Nowell is more solid defensively, which will be important in what should be a tight game.

Looks to me like a tactical change. In terms of form, Nowell was conspicuously good against Quins last weekend. Sadly.

Wade would be a defensive liability against an attack as carefully coached as Ireland. They would know how to lure him out of position and I'd expect them to exploit it.

You might be right there, I hope it pays off! Nowell has been in good form recently, so hopefully this translates on the big stage cos it hasn't really for May.

[Rugby Fan]

The Telegraph couldn't resist using the word "jink" when writing about Alex Goode. I regard that as a bad omen.

[Gooseberry]

Completely trolling for responses.

Surely fishhooking for responses? Im sure someone will bite

[Gooseberry]

True, but Brown at his best can be a match winner. I'm a mixture of relieved and concerned at this news of his absence. Relieved we don't have to play him, concerned for the player- the amount of concussions there are now is worrying. Though I wonder if it's been this bad for a while and they were simply ignored up until now.

Brown is a different kind of absentee to the likes of Farrell, Parling, Tuilagi and Care. They have replacements who are as good or better than those players. Even Corbisiero isn't missed while Marler continues his upward trajectory. I think of that list only Brown and Lawes can't be replaced nearly like for like.

In fact, I would much rather face Farrell than Ford.

Lawes, Brown and Launchbury are the big losses for me. Brown is a match-winner and a leader, dead right, and hope he can put the concussions behind him (although he can be a head down player who throws his body on the line at times). But while they might miss him normally, I think Alex Goode has a good skillset for playing against Ireland (and did so in his last outing against them).

Heaslip loss for me is big in his work-rate, would have like to have that at the breakdown against the likes of Robshaw who will be all over the field

I dont think England would miss Brown as much if Foden were fit (which he hasnt manged consistently for a couple of years now).
theres a big difference between Brown and Goode which changes the way England have to play, even if you ignore the relative perceived quality of the two. Foden and Brown missing is a big issue for sure.
Other losses are really just leaving England with a short bench and not having a selection problem in the centers.
If you consider Armitage to be missing as well ( he probably wouldve been given the exception for a call up had he not been arrested) the potential England squad is very different to the one thats going out, with only wings and hooker unaffected.
England really certainly have depth, the problems long been a lack of genuine stand out super stars who perform for years consistently and take the team to the next level. Brown had strung together a couple of strong years as a nailed on first choice when fit and is considered a permanent fixture so does look a big miss. Cole is probably the nearest thing they have to a grizzled veteran superstar, and a lot of people spent a lot of energy on hating him for most of his career.

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