Ireland v England - Match Thread

[GunsGerms]

First topic message reminder :

I know I am two weeks early but Ireland v England on Sunday 1st March will possibly be the 6 nations decider as both teams are the only two teams still undefeated in the 6 nations so far this year.

There are many different angles, plots and sub plots to this game. Here are some of the many things at stake:

Reaburn Shield:

Ireland have held it for 4 consecutive games having defeated previous holders SA in November.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Raeburn_Shield

3rd place in rankings:



Triple Crown:

Only Ireland and England can still win this trophy and with due respect to Scotland and Wales who Ireland have yet to play to win it would be some achievement this year.

Grand Slam:

Only Ireland and England and win the slam.

6 nations title:
Obviously France and Wales are still in the running with only one loss but the bookies have Ireland and England as favorites at this point.

Millennium Trophy:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Millennium_Trophy

Eye on the WC:
The earliest Ireland and England could possibly meet at the WC is the Semi finals if they both win their pools and their quarter finals or both come runner up and win their quarters. Either way I think other fixtures such England v Wales and Ireland v France were more important for each nations WC preparations.

Ireland need one more win to tie their record of 10 sucessive wins.

Head to head record:
Overall: England 74 wins Ireland 46 wins
6Nations: England 7 wins Ireland 8 wins

Who is going to win and why?
http://www.espn.co.uk/six-nations-2015/rugby/story/256583.html
Phil Vickery predicts an England win.

Teams:

England:

Ireland:

[Nachos Jones]

The Brown - Goode debate is one that can also be easily transferred to the Ireland team.

Kearney is the incumbent and his deputy is Felix Jones (a player I rate highly at club level but one that I feel, based on what I have seen will struggle at International level).

What would Schmidt do if Kearney got injured or fell dramatically off form? Does Schmidt bring Felix in, does he turn to Payne or does he turn to Zebo?

[beshocked]

If May was dropped simply for that one 'overzealous' moment in attack then I think it a little too exacting a policy of 'drop the mistake guy'.

Players make mistakes all the time through their careers.  And some of the best ones made the biggest ones.  And often the best learning curve is to challenge the mistake maker to go back out again immediately and make up for any errors.  That's a mind concentrated on improving.

Couldn't agree more.

It's no secret I'm a May fan but I have the pleasure of watching him play most weeks. His England form hasn't been great for whatever reason but he's still done more good than bad IMO and I think this is pretty shocking from Lancaster.

I genuinely fail to see what's special about Nowell. Wasn't he playing centre for Chiefs last week?! If May was dropped for someone else with as much potential, like Wade, I'd almost say fair enough.

Seems far too important a game to go testing a player that has a far worse strike rate than May, at club level alone. I realise I'm turning into Gloucester's version of Beshocked, just shoot me before I get quite that annoying.

Englishreign actually I will defend Nowell now - it's because he's actually got some good form and even some tries under his belt. He's a more experienced player than he was a year ago. I have not said that he shouldn't be in consideration.

If player X gets better I will not criticise them. I used to think Ford was too small etc but he's proving me wrong and he's improved as a player.

People think I just care about Saracens players - no ultimately I want the best side for England - if that's no Saracens players then that's fine as long as those Saracens players aren't unfairly overlooked.

My opinion does and can change. If May started playing well for England I would be praising him.

Unfortunately for May he's not playing well so I can understand Lancaster dropping him.

You wish you were the Gloucester version of me....

[MunsterMac]

What would Schmidt do if Kearney got injured or fell dramatically off form? Does Schmidt bring Felix in, does he turn to Payne or does he turn to Zebo?

Personally I'd love to see how

15 - Payne
13 - Fitzgerald
12 - Henshaw

would go - regardless of whether Kearney was available or not.

[SecretFly]

What would Schmidt do if Kearney got injured or fell dramatically off form? Does Schmidt bring Felix in, does he turn to Payne or does he turn to Zebo?

Personally I'd love to see how

15 - Payne
13 - Fitzgerald
12 - Henshaw

would go - regardless of whether Kearney was available or not.

I'd need to have more of a sense of Fitz with Kearney first.... before I'd put two new guys and an eternally 'renewing' old guy in prime positions. Maybe injuries would force it but I really wouldn't be voluntarily experimenting with it either for England, Wales or Scotland.

[MunsterMac]

Well most people consider Payne's best position to be 15.

Kearney is the definition of a 'solid' fullback and is peerless under a high ball but his idea of counterattacking is to career wholeheartedly into the nearest tackler.

Payne is good under the high ball and is probably a better counter attacker.

Kearney's left boot is also handy to have but then again Zebo has a mean left boot on him as well.

And to be fair to Fitzgerald if he can stay injury free and build on his impressive performances of late he could be a stand out candidate for the 13 shirt.

Not that any of this would wash with Joe.

Counterattacking fullbacks?!? 13's with good offloading hands?!?!?

Far too risky!

[Nachos Jones]

What would Schmidt do if Kearney got injured or fell dramatically off form? Does Schmidt bring Felix in, does he turn to Payne or does he turn to Zebo?

Personally I'd love to see how

15 - Payne
13 - Fitzgerald
12 - Henshaw

would go - regardless of whether Kearney was available or not.

You wouldn't consider Earls at 13?

[SecretFly]

Oh I get you about Kearney.  I'm of the same opinion.  And for me personally he's a very seasonally hot and cold player.  Sometimes a rampaging superhero in a cloak one season, then another lacklustre sidewinder the next season.

Careers are too short to be so erratic so I'd love the idea of someone truly biting at his backside and keeping him really on his toes in terms of competition.

But like you've alluded to, the 15 - whichever 15 it might be, would probably be under some very strict functionality rules from Joe.  I don't think simply changing the name would give you automatically a much more effective counter-attacker.  Joe's sides are set up for rapid defensive formations, he doesn't want too many unplanned counter attackers getting isolated and then paying the price when a defensive wall can't form quickly.

So much of what Kearney does now is perhaps a degree of so-so form but also a fair degree of direction from above.

I don't though see Payne as the next Kearney.  He's not all that young himself (a year older than Kearney?)  And there are not really all that many games left that are 'safe' enough to experiment with him there.  Perhaps some of the summer pre-WC games.  

But I think if we want a more incisive counterattacking 15 then it's really with Schmidt first to give it the green light.

[Notch]

The difference between Kearney under the high ball and Payne is stark. Claiming the ball unopposed is one thing, but Kearney is considerably better at taking it under genuine pressure and winning 50/50s. He's better at chasing kicks and much more likely to win the ball back in that situation.

And while Payne is a better counter-attacker, he won't have the space to operate in when it comes to test level that he does counter-attacking from 15 in the Pro12. Counter-attacking from fullback is possible in test rugby, but it is much harder. To be fair, if Payne gets past the first tackle he could do some real damage but most good sides would largely shut him down I think. A good kick chase and good tackling would nullify most of Paynes strengths.

I genuinely think Kearney is very far ahead of Payne when it comes to fullback play at test level. My first choice to replace him would be Felix Jones.

[MunsterMac]

You wouldn't consider Earls at 13?

Me personally no.

I've been of the opinion for some time now that Earls doesn't have the hands, awareness or offloading skills for the center. Even his footwork can be suspect at times.

Defensively I think he's better than many think and he is improving all the time but for the most part his strength is running at speed in a straight line without too many obstacles in his way.

Having said all that he has definitely improved most parts of his game since he's come back from his latest injury and I've been very impressed with him.

With everyone fit Ireland certainly won't lack for quality wingers for the World Cup.

[Nachos Jones]

He has been playing 13 for Munster and has looked very good. The offloading and awareness is not a weakness I have seen in him. The last two games he has made some good line breaks and shown a lot of awareness in his passing (check out the last match, beautiful offload from him).

[SecretFly]

15 Kearney (under orders to counter effectively )
13 Earls
12 Henshaw

???

Joe still gets in the way though. Rules is rules.

[Nachos Jones]

I really rate Earls but the only way he will get a start in an Ireland match at 13 now would be due to Kearney getting injured and Payne dropping to 15.

[GoodinTightSpaces]

lads ireland have just won this match. Issac Boss is starting for Leinster!!!

[Sin é]

I really rate Earls but the only way he will get a start in an Ireland match at 13 now would be due to Kearney getting injured and Payne dropping to 15.

Earls said recently that the only think that is holding back his involvement is that Schmidt is a bit wary of his knee going again.

Munster Mac - name me one of the starting players who has a better passing game than Earls?
From what I can see, Schmidt does not want anyone to pass or offload. He wants them to kick, chase hard and hit rucks. Earls is one of the best ruckers around pound for pound - in fact he would give a lot of backrows a run for their money in that aspect of his game. Luke Fitz said last week that Schmidt sees him as a winger (and back-up centre). Its fairly obvious that Schmidt sees Earls as a centre, not a winger as he has been selected there for Wolfhounds and since his return from injury by Munster.

Ireland are really missing pace as well (though I think Schmidt is a bit wary of anyone going for the line on their own).

[MunsterMac]

Sin - I suppose it is true that what many would see as a good center wouldn't necessarily fit the bill from Joe's POV.

If you take passing, offloading and breaking off the list of requirements then the job of the center becomes much easier.

And yes, Earls is a tiger at the breakdown. He's a very strong young lad.

[Sin é]

Sin - I suppose it is true that what many would see as a good center wouldn't necessarily fit the bill from Joe's POV.

If you take passing, offloading and breaking off the list of requirements then the job of the center becomes much easier.

And yes, Earls is a tiger at the breakdown. He's a very strong young lad.

Earls & Luke Fitz are probably the two best passers available. They can actually draw a man as well. I have seen nothing from Henshaw or Payne to suggest that they are anything but average passers (though Payne has a good offload) and Kearney just doesn't pass - he always goes to ground. Bowe doesn't get a hugh number of opportunities to show his passing. I can only think of one really good pass in the two games so far, and that was from Simon Zebo.

People wonder why Cave isn't involved (who has a good passing game). The reason why he isn't is because he isn't a good enough rucker (and lack of pace).

PS - I don't think linebreaking is off the agenda (which is what both Earls & Fitz are good at).

[Nachos Jones]

Schmidt really likes Earls as well so I would not be surprised if he makes an appearance during this 6N.

[MunsterMac]

I'd imagine Schmidt has identified Earls as a player who can and will carry out a job he needs doing.

It's like painting by numbers but hey...if we're winning......

[SecretFly]

I wish the hell the big long preview of Earls and Schmidt on the same team would end and that the actual gig got an airing.  I'm getting a little impatient and a little bored waiting to see what might happen.  It's like waiting and waiting for a Heavyweight fight as the participants go around doing the chatshow circuit talking it up.

Just get in the ring Earls and Schmidt and let's see this fight happen.  The talk is over about how explosive it could be.

[Marshes]

Sin - I suppose it is true that what many would see as a good center wouldn't necessarily fit the bill from Joe's POV.

If you take passing, offloading and breaking off the list of requirements then the job of the center becomes much easier.

And yes, Earls is a tiger at the breakdown. He's a very strong young lad.

Earls & Luke Fitz are probably the two best passers available. They can actually draw a man as well. I have seen nothing from Henshaw or Payne to suggest that they are anything but average passers (though Payne has a good offload) and Kearney just doesn't pass - he always goes to ground. Bowe doesn't get a hugh number of opportunities to show his passing. I can only think of one really good pass in the two games so far, and that was from Simon Zebo.

People wonder why Cave isn't involved (who has a good passing game). The reason why he isn't is because he isn't a good enough rucker (and lack of pace).

PS - I don't think linebreaking is off the agenda (which is what both Earls & Fitz are good at).

I think Henshaw at 13 for Connacht when I've seen him is a very good passer. Him, Marmion and Aki had a very good understanding, and Connacht's drop in form is in no small part to that unit being broken up by injury and call-ups. Frankly he has done more over the past year to show he deserves the jersey over all other challengers and if he was at any other province the plaudits would have been sooner and louder.

Unfortunately for Ireland at the minute I don't think he has had the opportunity to show that at 12 as he is being used to take make short gains and chase kicks, so far to success.

[Sin é]

Most of those guys you claim he has a better claim to play 13 have been either injured/ recently returning from injury for most of the year.

Schmidt is keeping it simple for the midfield I think. It seems to me that Schmidt wants an experienced player at 13. Robbie has done very well at 12. The one attribute he has over the rest of the contenders is his physicality.

[geoff999rugby]

From the players released to the Provinces I think we can take it as a given the 4 backrowers are SOB, POM, Murphy, TOD

[GunsGerms]

From the players released to the Provinces I think we can take it as a given the 4 backrowers are SOB, POM, Murphy, TOD

The worst kept secret ever.

[geoff999rugby]

Well there was a slight doubt about TOD but I know what you mean

[Gwlad]

Put Burgess at 15…that would be hilarious. But seriously so wish Foden was fit as he was an awesome counterattacker, perhaps better than Brown even. I think with Sexton's pinpoint accuracy it will be a tough old day for Mr Goode.

[hugehandoff]

Team announced as expected.

Marler
Hartley
Cole
Kruis
Attwood
Robshaw
Billy
Haskell
Youngs
Ford
Nowell
Burrell
JJ
Watson
Goode

Bench
T Youngs
H Thomas
M Vunipola
Easter
Croft
Wigglesworth
Cips
36

Manu and Pennell travelling with the squad.....too cold for swimming so not sure what Manu will do?

[lostinwales]

Brookes didnt make it then

[Mickado]

From the players released to the Provinces I think we can take it as a given the 4 backrowers are SOB, POM, Murphy, TOD

I notice Luke Fitz is not in the Leinster squad for tonight. Could be a 24th/25th man in the Ireland squad, could be on the bench...

[beshocked]

The only mind games seem to have been who would announce their team later!

[HammerofThunor]

Team announced as expected.

Marler
Hartley
Cole
Kruis
Attwood
Robshaw
Billy
Haskell
Youngs
Ford
Nowell
Burrell
JJ
Watson
Goode

Bench
T Youngs
H Thomas
M Vunipola
Easter
Croft
Wigglesworth
Cips
36

Manu and Pennell travelling with the squad.....too cold for swimming so not sure what Manu will do?

That's really REALLY annoying. Give him to time to gain fitness with his club. If he's not being considered, leave him at home. If he's fit to play let Leicester have him and ease him in.

[Nachos Jones]

I agree with Hammer, if Manu is not going to get a start then surely he must get some game time at Leicester. It also does not send out a good sign to the current centre pairing that he is there without having to prove his match fitness, the signal it sends out is that he will automatically start when Lancaster thinks he's ready...

[GunsGerms]

From the players released to the Provinces I think we can take it as a given the 4 backrowers are SOB, POM, Murphy, TOD

I notice Luke Fitz is not in the Leinster squad for tonight. Could be a 24th/25th man in the Ireland squad, could be on the bench...

He is probably just injured again.

[majesticimperialman]

With regards to Manu. He should be no were near the squad at this moment in time IMO, how much game time as he had lately? If he as recovered from his groin injury then he should be with leicesert to get some much needed game time.

[Geordie]

I agree RE Manu. He shouldn't be there.

[SecretFly]

He obviously brings something to the camp that Lancaster feels he doesn't want to break right at the moment as they head into their crunch game of the 6N.

Maybe simply a unifying attitude/personality that keeps the guys relaxed and feeling happy?

I know it's no practical professional reason for holding onto a player who isn't fit enough to play - but it might be a very important psychological reason right now.

[Gooseberry]

If Manu really is being excluded from starting when hes fit that is bonkers and will have Cockerill tearing his err hair out (?) Last weekend they started two kids with 1 premiership games experience between them.

From what I understand though he isnt ready to play yet. Hes being taken along to stay connected with the squad and wouldnt be playing for Tigers on Saturday.

[beshocked]

It is odd indeed. Especially as Lawes for example will be playing for Saints on the weekend.

[TightHEAD]

Very strange call indeed.

[lostinwales]

Most likely scenario is that he is going to stay out injured for a while longer but that England want to monitor the injury and make sure he is up to speed with current thinking when he does come back. As Lawes and Wood are recovering the best thing for them is game time

[SecretFly]

I don't get the 'strangeness'

I'd assume Lancaster has been talking to Cockerill.  I'd assume both parties have come to the conclusion he wouldn't be playing for either outfit at the weekend based on fitness or whatever.

So, whadyah do?  Have a passenger hanging around the Leicester camp or one hanging around the England one?

Much of a muchness.  Probably the least unsettling for both squads is that Manu remains in situ with the English to keep the routines going and perhaps he'll be introduced in the following two games.

But I'm certain it's an easy agreement reached between Leicester and Lancaster. A passenger is a passenger. Let's not fight over what seat he sits in

[gregortree]

I hear he will be leading the swim fit warm ups at the England team hotel.

[yappysnap]

He's also there for any photos with important dignitaries.

[SecretFly]

Oh?

What does he get up to around dignitaries?

He ain't another kindly gent like Martin, is he??

[BamBam]

He said important

[LondonTiger]

any picture of Michael Higgins can only be improved by Manu pulling bunny ears behind his head. It would be a thoughtful gesture, just like Johnno who heard Mrs McAleese commenting that she wished people would notiCe her new shoes and finely toned calves, and thus ensured she could fully parade them to the packed masses in Lansdowne Rd

[SecretFly]

He said important

Well Martin always thought himself very important...yes.

[yappysnap]

Exactly, Manu is a man of many talents. Once he even played a bit of rugby.

[SecretFly]

any picture of Michael Higgins can only be improved by Manu pulling bunny ears behind his head. It would be a thoughtful gesture, just like Johnno who heard Mrs McAleese commenting that she wished people would notiCe her new shoes and finely toned calves, and thus ensured she could fully parade them to the packed masses in Lansdowne Rd

Well Bilbo already met Gandalf (McKellen) a few months back in, of all places, Smaug's homeland of Wales.

So I guess an Uruk Hai is next on his list of his trip down memory lane.

[Notch]

any picture of Michael Higgins can only be improved by Manu pulling bunny ears behind his head.

He'd have to lie down on his belly to get low enough to the ground

[beshocked]

http://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/0/rugby-union/31641456

Articles like this annoy me. You could imagine that Tom Fordyce would faint if he met Sexton in person. Plus it's inaccurate - this is Ford's 2nd 6 nations.

It's easily forgotten that though Sexton is of course a very accomplished fly half it was his error against England that last year proved a turning point.

Last 3 years Sexton has played England and not delivered a win.

Sexton has a lot to prove against England of all opponents.

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