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Another Drive4show 'Anything goes' thread

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Post by McLaren Sat Mar 07, 2015 10:20 am

First topic message reminder :

Super

I saw the first two sets and a bit, then went out to get dinner. Wish I had stuck around to watch it.
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Post by beninho Thu Jul 30, 2015 6:22 pm

England voted to the right at the last election. I do not see how a leftist leader/party would attract the floating voter whom elections are decided by. England is traditionally a right of centre country. I like some of this guys ideas. But just do not see how a leftist party will win an election. I like Andy Burnham, but would have chosen him over Miliband. None of the others standing fill me with excitement. I'm a wooly liberal, but the new leader there seems a bit odd.

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Post by beninho Thu Jul 30, 2015 6:23 pm

So the FA have backed Platini, a bloke who voted for the Qatar world cup, and helped smooth a path for the Qataris to buy PSG. The guy is as dodgy as Blatter. The FA are a bunch of idiots.

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Post by MontysMerkin Thu Jul 30, 2015 6:31 pm

beninho wrote:England voted to the right at the last election. I do not see how a leftist leader/party would attract the floating voter whom elections are decided by. England is traditionally a right of centre country. I like some of this guys ideas. But just do not see how a leftist party will win an election. I like Andy Burnham, but would have chosen him over Miliband. None of the others standing fill me with excitement. I'm a wooly liberal, but the new leader there seems a bit odd.

How could they not vote to the right? What choice was there? A credible left leaning party would have got my vote easily. The current shower of political sh1te in power and opposition is a feckin disgrace, only interested in lining their own pockets. They certainly seem completely disinterested in the electorate.
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Post by navyblueshorts Thu Jul 30, 2015 7:29 pm

Look at the last election. There's no way a seriously left-leaning party is getting anywhere near into Government and that's despite the recent history re. bankers etc etc.
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Post by pedro Thu Jul 30, 2015 8:45 pm

navyblueshorts wrote:Look at the last election. There's no way a seriously left-leaning party is getting anywhere near into Government and that's despite the recent history re. bankers etc etc.
Socialism is dead. It's a thing of the last century. The left of today is not concerned about the workers, they're concerned about those who don't work. IMO the left needs to reinvent itself to have any credibility at all.


Last edited by pedro on Thu Jul 30, 2015 8:52 pm; edited 1 time in total

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Post by pedro Thu Jul 30, 2015 8:47 pm

beninho wrote:So the FA have backed Platini, a bloke who voted for the Qatar world cup, and helped smooth a path for the Qataris to buy PSG. The guy is as dodgy as Blatter. The FA are a bunch of idiots.
Consensus among European FA's is that anything but Blatter is a step in the right direction. They could have Gazza run and he'd get their vote.

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Post by raycastleunited Thu Jul 30, 2015 9:03 pm

pedro wrote:
navyblueshorts wrote:Look at the last election. There's no way a seriously left-leaning party is getting anywhere near into Government and that's despite the recent history re. bankers etc etc.
Socialism is dead. It's a thing of the last century. The left of today is not concerned about the workers, they're concerned about those who don't work. IMO the left needs to reinvent itself to have any credibility at all.

This is something I've been thinking about for a while. You've nailed it - very succinctly put.

We seem to have a choice between supporting "benefits scroungers" or supporting self-starters, which isn't really a choice for the majority of people.

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Post by McLaren Thu Jul 30, 2015 9:13 pm

I am yet to see any evidence that the level of "benefit scroungers" is something worth worrying about. As far as I can tell the vast majority of those people on benefits claim them legitimately. If anything unclaimed benefits are the problem.
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Post by MustPuttBetter Thu Jul 30, 2015 9:51 pm

That's funny Mac

What do you call legitimately? If I am a 16 year old girl and I make the life decision that rather than go to work I would prefer to get pregnant, claim benefits, housing etc, and then when that kid goes to school and half my benefits stop I will get pregnant again....... I presumably have claimed them legitimately? I've done nothing outside the rules but I am undoubtedly a benefits scrounger. It's a choice I've made to live off the state, a choice a hell of a lot of people seem to make where I am
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Post by McLaren Thu Jul 30, 2015 10:08 pm

mustputt

"undoubtedly a benefits scrounger" is a very strong claim. Would you mind providing some evidence to support that claim?
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Post by MustPuttBetter Thu Jul 30, 2015 10:19 pm

Mac

Evidence?

To scrounge: "seek to obtain (something, typically food or money) at the expense or through the generosity of others"

Done
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Post by McLaren Thu Jul 30, 2015 10:26 pm

Ok, we have established the definition you wish to use for "scrounge". (Just offering a definition is not evidence)

You now need to provide evidence that a women in the situation you described has "undoubtedly" sought to obtain (something, typically food or money) at the expense or through the generosity of others.

Also remember that as you have inserted undoubtedly into the premise you are now facing an even greater burden of proof than you otherwise might have done. You now have to not only defend the scrounger claim but also show that you are almost certain that it cannot be false.
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Post by MustPuttBetter Thu Jul 30, 2015 10:36 pm

It's not something that is possible to evidence Mac. It's just a simple string of facts that I accept might baffle you. Asking for 'evidence' is just your standard response to everything.

My statement was that a person who makes a choice to live off benefits (ie not driven by circumstances outside their control) is a benefits scrounger. This is undeniable. It doesn't need to be evidenced. Just like if I said 1 plus 1 was 2.
That person is seeking to obtain money at the expense of the state. The state being a collective of people, you and I. Do you disagree?
Please do find me a wildly varying definition of scrounging if you disagree with that bit, which you imply you do.

Do you disagree with any of that? if not, you cannot dispute that that person is a benefits scrounger. It's simple logic Mac.

I 'need' to provide nothing. Not everything can be evidenced. The sky is blue, this is just a fact. If I told you the sky was blue and you asked me to provide evidence (which you would), the fact I couldn't evidence it would make it no less so
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Post by LadyPutt Thu Jul 30, 2015 11:06 pm

MustPuttBetter wrote:That's funny Mac

What do you call legitimately? If I am a 16 year old girl and I make the life decision that rather than go to work I would prefer to get pregnant, claim benefits, housing etc, and then when that kid goes to school and half my benefits stop I will get pregnant again....... I presumably have claimed them legitimately? I've done nothing outside the rules but I am undoubtedly a benefits scrounger. It's a choice I've made to live off the state, a choice a hell of a lot of people seem to make where I am
I can only agree with you MPB. Where I live it is almost the norm to stay at home, have kids and live off benefits - and teach the kids to do the same when they are old enough. We call it the "kerching" syndrome! I am one of very few people in my street who actually goes out to work. Is there any wonder I can't wait to get out of London?
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Post by McLaren Thu Jul 30, 2015 11:08 pm

"It's simple logic Mac."

Ok, so here is a quick attempt at doing this via simple logic. (I am sure someone can improve on this)

Premises
scrounging is gaining at the expense of others
benefits are received at the expense of others
A woman can choose to get pregnant in order to gain benefits

conclusion: A woman who chooses to get pregnant is a scrounger.

This conclusion is only true if you can provide evidence to believe that all of the premises are true.


PS There is a massive body of evidence for the sky being blue.
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Post by pedro Thu Jul 30, 2015 11:18 pm

It's a false syllogism mac. Too much Schopenhauer and Kant over the summer?

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Post by McLaren Thu Jul 30, 2015 11:21 pm

Seemingly not enough.
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Post by MustPuttBetter Thu Jul 30, 2015 11:24 pm

You've conveniently left out half the points Mac, obviously.
I did not say a woman who chooses to get pregnant is a scrounger. What I said was a woman who chooses to get pregnant in order to be able to scrounge is a scrounger. This is simple English Mac

You can make up your own definition of scrounging if you like but all that means is you're talking nonsense. A bit like the 'it's a nice game you're playing but it's not golf'.   'Its a nice word you're using but it's not english'

A person who makes a lifestyle choice to have kids in order to be able to claim benefits rather than go to work is by definition a benefits scrounger.

I am just glad to have been able to teach you that these people exist as you obviously were not aware. I hope, as a person with your intellect would, you will review your position in light of this new information.

Your stance of asking for evidence for everything you disagree with is of no value although I've no doubt you think it makes you a master debater. Have looked through some of your posts above I would like evidence of the following -

- That you are yet to see evidence as to the level of benefits scroungers. I need proof that you've seen none.
- that unclaimed benefits are THE problem. Not a problem, THE problem. Proof pls
- finally, going right to the top, evidence that you did in fact see the first two sets and then went out to dinner. Some proof pls. I expect photos, a signed declaration by an independent or at least a consensus/survey of the public agreeing that you in fact did those things.

I look forward to receiving your offerings as these can only be true if you can provide evidence
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Post by MontysMerkin Thu Jul 30, 2015 11:25 pm

I did read in the Mail only last year of a woman who did this. And she's brought the country to it's knees.

Forget the fact we have spent trillions on illegal wars, trillions on the banks, multinational monopolies making billions providing core services, taxes being used to pay private landlords (37% of politicians let at least one property) hugely inflated rents (29 billion a year), tax dodging by both individuals and multinationals. No, it is definitely some 17 year old girls destroying the system. If you really believe that then a) godwins law wins again or b) you can't think very well because the evidence is right there.
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Post by Davie Thu Jul 30, 2015 11:28 pm

Godwin's Law? Who mentioned H**ler?

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Post by MontysMerkin Thu Jul 30, 2015 11:29 pm

Seems a bit right wing? Didn't want to state the obvious...
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Post by MustPuttBetter Thu Jul 30, 2015 11:33 pm

MontysMerkin wrote:I did read in the Mail only last year of a woman who did this. And she's brought the country to it's knees.

Forget the fact we have spent trillions on illegal wars, trillions on the banks, multinational monopolies making billions providing core services, taxes being used to pay private landlords (37% of politicians let at least one property) hugely inflated rents (29 billion a year), tax dodging by both individuals and multinationals. No, it is definitely some 17 year old girls destroying the system. If you really believe that then a) godwins law wins again or b) you can't think very well because the evidence is right there.

Are you one of those people who can only have one opinion at a time. Just because there are bigger problems doesn't mean the smaller problems are not still problems. Especially when it's the issue being discussed at present. Dear oh dear
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Post by MontysMerkin Thu Jul 30, 2015 11:36 pm

Well exactly. Do you think the big problems are 17 year old girls getting pregnant on purpose (there must be bloody millions of em!) or the list above. Go on give it a go...
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Post by MustPuttBetter Thu Jul 30, 2015 11:39 pm

LadyPutt wrote:I can only agree with you MPB. Where I live it is almost the norm to stay at home, have kids and live off benefits - and teach the kids to do the same when they are old enough. We call it the "kerching" syndrome! I am one of very few people in my street who actually goes out to work. Is there any wonder I can't wait to get out of London?

Kerching syndrome, I might use that LP!
You're absolutely right about teaching the kids to do the same thing. I know a girl who got pregnant at 16, waited for that one to get old enough where her benefits were diminishing and had a second kid, and then a third, 8 years later. All so she didn't have to work and openly admitted it.
Her eldest, a girl has just turned 18 and finished college, realized she had to get a job and guess what, now pregnant.
They're actually nice enough people but it's a lifestyle choice. Not for all, I've not said that despite Mac trying to twist things, but certainly for many. No two ways about it.
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Post by MustPuttBetter Thu Jul 30, 2015 11:43 pm

MontysMerkin wrote:Well exactly. Do you think the big problems are 17 year old girls getting pregnant on purpose (there must be bloody millions of em!) or the list above. Go on give it a go...

How is it relevant which the biggest problem is?
The subject was benefits scroungers, hence the discussion. I've never said it was the biggest problem in the world.
You think society should only deal with problems one at a time? Ha ha ha!!
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Post by beninho Thu Jul 30, 2015 11:48 pm

Benefit scroungers is such a horrible phrase, and used by people that have little knowledge of the benefit system or the people that have to claim benefits. Is there a problem in this country of 17 year olds getting pregnant to gain benefits. Not that I am aware. I think people believe the bullsh&t in the papers that kids get pregnant and get housed and live the life of riley. Or that people walk in to this country and get housed no matter where they come from. People may see someone not working an automatically thing benefit scrounger.

Of course we have issues in this country but people receiving benefits is not the biggest.

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Post by pedro Thu Jul 30, 2015 11:48 pm

Monty, two wrongs doesn't make it right.

I think it's a fair point to address that so-called "working class parties" in fact have the interests of non-working people higher and higher on their agenda.

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Post by MontysMerkin Thu Jul 30, 2015 11:51 pm

Ha ha good one. The subject in case you forget (it did start quite a long time ago - yesterday, you've slept since then I s'pose so apologies) was labour getting in at the next election. As usual it then became about looking down on others (most of whom find themselves in that position through no fault of their own) and completely ignoring the fact that a properly left leaning party may do something about the list I previously mentioned.
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Post by pedro Thu Jul 30, 2015 11:54 pm

beninho wrote: Or that people walk in  to this country and get housed no matter where they come from.  
Why hasn't anyone put forward the point that immigrants raiding the Chunnel in fact do it to escape France rather than to enter Britain???

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Post by MontysMerkin Thu Jul 30, 2015 11:54 pm

pedro wrote:Monty, two wrongs doesn't make it right.

I think it's a fair point to address that so-called "working class parties" in fact have the interests of non-working people higher and higher on their agenda.
Absolutely agree, which is where I think a properly left leaning party would address the balance. The 'labour' party has been tory lite since new labour was conceived. There is no choice, it's been funny for the lib dems trying to get the middle ground!
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Post by MustPuttBetter Thu Jul 30, 2015 11:56 pm

beninho wrote:Benefit scroungers is such a horrible phrase, and used by people that have little knowledge of the benefit system or the people that have to claim benefits. Is there a problem in this country of 17 year olds getting pregnant to gain benefits. Not that I am aware.  I think people believe the bullsh&t in the papers that kids get pregnant and get housed and live the life of riley. Or that people walk in  to this country and get housed no matter where they come from. People may see someone not working an automatically thing benefit scrounger.

Of course we have issues in this country but people receiving benefits is not the biggest.

So niaive. I think people that haven't themselves come across an issue assume it must be bullsh@t.
I know plenty about benefits, I advise enough clients on them.

Again, no ones said it's the biggest problem in the world. What the hell were you doing earlier talking about FIFA and Platini when that's nowhere near the biggest problem in this country??!
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Post by MontysMerkin Fri Jul 31, 2015 12:00 am

So all you see are the 'scroungers', no wonder you're a tad 'jaded'. I work in a hospital and this country is being overrun and ruined by sick people. I work in a garage and the country is being overrun with people who's cars don't work properly. Change jobs - the country is full of people trying to do their best for themselves and their families. What IS fecking up the whole system I have listed previously.
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Post by pedro Fri Jul 31, 2015 12:00 am

MustPuttBetter wrote:
beninho wrote:Benefit scroungers is such a horrible phrase, and used by people that have little knowledge of the benefit system or the people that have to claim benefits. Is there a problem in this country of 17 year olds getting pregnant to gain benefits. Not that I am aware.  I think people believe the bullsh&t in the papers that kids get pregnant and get housed and live the life of riley. Or that people walk in  to this country and get housed no matter where they come from. People may see someone not working an automatically thing benefit scrounger.

Of course we have issues in this country but people receiving benefits is not the biggest.

So niaive. I think people that haven't themselves come across an issue assume it must be bullsh@t.
I know plenty about benefits, I advise enough clients on them.

Again, no ones said it's the biggest problem in the world. What the hell were you doing earlier talking about FIFA and Platini when that's nowhere near the biggest problem in this country??!
Correct. Following problems are far bigger:
Ban on long putters
Trump redesigning Turnberry
Allenby's memory
Tiger's glute activation

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Post by MustPuttBetter Fri Jul 31, 2015 12:02 am

MontysMerkin wrote:Ha ha good one. The subject in case you forget (it did start quite a long time ago - yesterday, you've slept since then I s'pose so apologies) was labour getting in at the next election. As usual it then became about looking down on others (most of whom find themselves in that position through no fault of their own) and completely ignoring the fact that a properly left leaning party may do something about the list I previously mentioned.

Yes Monty...and the discussion evolved (Mac will give you a definition of you're not sure) as they tend to. Then you came and said we shouldn't be discussing it as there were bigger issues.....

I expressly (see brackets above) said I was referring to those who were not in the position through no fault of their own.

Anyway, must get back to work. I'll leave you and the other benefits scroungers to discuss this after - and only after - you have adequately discussed all of the bigger problems.

I will check back in later for Mac's pieces of evidence as instructed
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Post by MustPuttBetter Fri Jul 31, 2015 12:04 am

MontysMerkin wrote:So all you see are the 'scroungers'

If that's what you read from what I wrote then you have bigger problems than I realized!! Over and out
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Post by MontysMerkin Fri Jul 31, 2015 12:07 am

MustPuttBetter wrote:
MontysMerkin wrote:Ha ha good one. The subject in case you forget (it did start quite a long time ago - yesterday, you've slept since then I s'pose so apologies) was labour getting in at the next election. As usual it then became about looking down on others (most of whom find themselves in that position through no fault of their own) and completely ignoring the fact that a properly left leaning party may do something about the list I previously mentioned.

Yes Monty...and the discussion evolved (Mac will give you a definition of you're not sure) as they tend to. Then you came and said we shouldn't be discussing it as there were bigger issues.....

I expressly (see brackets above) said I was referring to those who were not in the position through no fault of their own.

Anyway, must get back to work. I'll leave you and the other benefits scroungers to discuss this after - and only after - you have adequately discussed all of the bigger problems.

I will check back in later for Mac's pieces of evidence as instructed

No, I have never said that. Discuss away, but I think you're barking up a blind alley...
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Post by MontysMerkin Fri Jul 31, 2015 12:09 am

[/quote]

So niaive. I think people that haven't themselves come across an issue assume it must be bullsh@t.
I know plenty about benefits, I advise enough clients on them.

![/quote]
Sorry presumed you work in the benefits system advising young pregnant women?
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Post by SmithersJones Fri Jul 31, 2015 1:47 am

Anyone ever stop to think that if their mum isn't very good at taking contraception these kids won't be either?
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Post by kwinigolfer Fri Jul 31, 2015 2:54 am

American Republicans certainly haven't figured that out. Or "faith-based" organizations and corporations.

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Post by Davie Fri Jul 31, 2015 6:11 am

That sounds like a bit of McLaren logic to me

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Post by MustPuttBetter Fri Jul 31, 2015 6:12 am

Come on Mac, still waiting on your evidence. Tick tock
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Post by pedro Fri Jul 31, 2015 7:01 am

Did you hear about the American dentist shooting that lion in Africa? Now that got the Americans fired up. So far 100,000 signed a petition to have him extradited to Zimbabwe....
Rookie mistake by the dentist: Had he just shot a black man instead...

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Post by McLaren Fri Jul 31, 2015 7:08 am

I am working on it.  Only just back from a round.


But remember whether or not I find evidence for my claim it adds nothing to evidence for your claim being true.



pedro :D
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Post by Davie Fri Jul 31, 2015 7:12 am

Did we hear about it?? Even the fricken carrier pigeons are bringing news about it. Why so much fuss over that particular lion?

Popular media at its worst. There must be lions not called Cecil being shot every day of the week. Where were the petitions then?

I don't agree with hunting but neither do I agree with media hypocrisy

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Post by Davie Fri Jul 31, 2015 7:13 am

I'd rather shoot someone who uses evidence as a verb, even though after querying Google about it which tells me it is ok, it just sounds wrong to me

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Post by MustPuttBetter Fri Jul 31, 2015 7:23 am

im afraid I cannot take the matter any further forward with you Mac until I have seen your evidence.

How'd you play? Getting round in under 100 yet?
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Post by McLaren Fri Jul 31, 2015 7:29 am

It went pretty F***ing terrible. My worst ball striking in about 18 months. Sad
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Post by MustPuttBetter Fri Jul 31, 2015 7:47 am

You need to go and have a kid.
I had a month off after mrs gave birth, have played twice this week and have managed rounds of 4 and 3 under handicap.
Give it a try
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Post by navyblueshorts Fri Jul 31, 2015 7:50 pm

pedro wrote:Did you hear about the American dentist shooting that lion in Africa? Now that got the Americans fired up. So far 100,000 signed a petition to have him extradited to Zimbabwe....
Rookie mistake by the dentist: Had he just shot a black man instead...
Yeah. Interesting response. They don't give a 4X when some nutter with a gun murders some of their own but they want this guy strung up by the balls....
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Post by raycastleunited Fri Jul 31, 2015 8:58 pm

MustPuttBetter wrote:You need to go and have a kid.
I had a month off after mrs gave birth, have played twice this week and have managed rounds of 4 and 3 under handicap.
Give it a try

I would have been hunted down and shot like a lion for playing golf when on paternity leave

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