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Red Cards in Belfast that aren't

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Post by Chunky Norwich Wed 01 Apr 2015, 9:17 pm

First topic message reminder :

What's that now................4 red cards that have been given to Ulster after the match by citing panels but not given by officials at the time?

a) How many minutes on the field should Ulter have been down a man but weren't?
b) What is it that makes officials not give the proper action at the time at the Kingspan stadium?

Something about that place eh?

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Post by Guest Fri 03 Apr 2015, 10:55 am

Wow. Trying to grab Patchell's arm is a new one. Have you seen his arm position? You don't grab somebody's wrist to dislodge it like that.

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Post by PenfroPete Fri 03 Apr 2015, 12:56 pm

The Great Aukster wrote:
PenfroPete wrote:
The Great Aukster wrote:
The Saint wrote:To answer the OP, I think this just might show the incompetence of the Pro12 refs, again. We seriously need more decent officials.

I agree there has to be a better standard of officiating, but the three involved, Nigel Owens, Ben Whitehouse and Marius Mitrea certainly aren't the worst on the roster. The Owens game was in Edinburgh so it isn't anything to do with the TMO either.

Rather than different independent referees in different games in different countries getting it consistently "wrong" with Ulster, it is far more plausible that the singular body known as the Citing Commission is the common denominator in the decisions being overruled. Why they should target Ulster for this special treatment is anybody's guess.

Just for clarity,as I understand it the Citing CommissionER makes the citing.

For the Ulster v Blues game it was Citing Commissioner: Eddie Wigglesworth (IRFU), for the Edinburgh v Ulster games it was Citing Commissioner: Paul Minto (SRU). Generally speaking the Commissioner is from the 'home' country

What I could find about the Citing Process - http://www.pro12rugby.com/news/12205.php

"The Citing Commissioners in all domestic competitions are selected on their independence and experience and appointed by the respective Unions. In each of the RaboDirect PRO12 countries, independent Citing Commisssioners are appointed for matches, avoiding where possible the Citing Commissioner's own club, province or region. This is similar to the French Top 14 and England's Aviva Premiership.

'The independent Citing Commissioners in the RaboDirect PRO12 attend the matches and take note of any indicators of possible foul play. They can then seek further information from TV, medical, team officials and players immediately after each game. The independent Citing Commissioner has a maximum of 48 hours from the final whistle, to notify the Tournament Disciplinary Officer of a citing. The independent Citing Commissioner will have reviewed the match DVD, usually with extra TV angles, to confirm his decision."


So it's an individual who decides to cite


Thanks for the research PP. thumbsup

Are you suggesting that the individual citing commissioners from rival provinces and areas are being especially harsh on Ulster to disadvantage them in League? That's the sort of conspiracy nonsense that I thought was the sole preserve of Chunk and LD - even if it would explain a lot.

Precisely the opposite in fact, that there is no conspiracy as far as citings go thumbsup
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Post by Rory_Gallagher Fri 03 Apr 2015, 1:53 pm

carpet baboon wrote:For me there are two issues. The first is should any injury that is caused due to reckless play have a bearing on the punishment?
The second is there is far to much "clearing out" at rucks which is just plain dangerous.
As an example and only because someone put it up earlier on this thread, Jenkins clear out on Hogg. That to me was a red card. Now watch the matches this weekend and I'm sure we will see similar in every game.  But only ones causing injury will be carded or cited. That in my opinion is wrong.
The action needs to be sanctioned not the outcome.
Them be my thoughts.
And I hope Rhys is back on the pitch a lot sooner than Williams

The thing is, if you are nitpicking you will literally see this in every single game. In the same game where Williams injured Shingler, a Scarlets player charges into the back of Clive Ross to drive him out. I didn't hear any of the Scarlets fans complaining about their own player getting a red card then. It needs stamped out of the game, but every team is guilty of it. Probably because it is effective and currently seems legal.

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Post by Notch Fri 03 Apr 2015, 1:58 pm

It seems legal because it is so common as not to be penalised. It's only picked up upon in incidents like this where it results in an injury. Carpet baboon is right.

It needs to be cracked down upon because the like of Nick Williams have learned they can put an impact on a ruck or maul like that, with no bind. And thats ignored until suddenly it does result in an injury. I don't think it was an intentional 'assault' because I see him do it all the time, but allowing him to do it has eventually led to an injury.
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Post by carpet baboon Fri 03 Apr 2015, 2:10 pm

Its becoming like the crooked feed. Everyone is doing it so its deemed "legal" personally I hate it. It will end up in a very very serious injury.
Now look at O'Brien against France this year. Got low used his arms great technique and cleaned 3 men out of a ruck. Perfectly legal and a hell of a lot less likely to put someone in hospital

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Post by Guest Fri 03 Apr 2015, 3:31 pm

I hope Patchell recovers OK to play again in a matter of weeks. The reports of him having no memory of the day before the game are worrying.

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Post by clivemcl Fri 03 Apr 2015, 9:21 pm

I still really wish Chunky had decidedto make this a proper thread rather than a WUM at Ulster. There is definately issues with consistency worlwide.

What would you guys say to a forearm being clamped to a players throat for a significant time preventing him from breathing? Sure that's no big deal right? Citing Panel said Messam deserved NO BAN.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xt87QmzEQRc


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Post by carpet baboon Fri 03 Apr 2015, 9:27 pm

I saw that on another thread Clive. I couldn't believe he got nothing for choking an opponent. Not even a day for choking someone to the point they nearly lost consciousness

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Post by marty2086 Fri 03 Apr 2015, 10:36 pm

clivemcl wrote:I still really wish Chunky had decidedto make this a proper thread rather than a WUM at Ulster. There is definately issues with consistency worlwide.

What would you guys say to a forearm being clamped to a players throat for a significant time preventing him from breathing? Sure that's no big deal right? Citing Panel said Messam deserved NO BAN.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xt87QmzEQRc


Considering Alan O'Connor got a three week ban for what happened to Mark Bennett but some of the decisions handed down in Super Rugby in regards to citings are laughable

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Post by clivemcl Sat 04 Apr 2015, 11:29 am

ANd while we are at it - why not talk about the Steyn case. Dangerous tip tackle and drive downward. Citing panel initially fully CLEARED Steyn of any wrongdoingf before then going back on themselves and issuing a 4 week ban.

http://www.rugbydump.com/2015/04/4185/francois-steyn-banned-for-5-weeks-after-rescinded-red-card-is-overturned

There is a genuine and worthwhile debate to be had here if anyone is interested in looking outside of Ulster rugby specifically.

So which is it - a refereeing/citing debate, or an anti-ulster crusade? I think I know...

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Post by Chunky Norwich Tue 07 Apr 2015, 1:48 pm

clivemcl wrote:

So which is it - a refereeing/citing debate, or an anti-ulster crusade? I think I know...

Start your own thread then instead of whining. This one is about the continued inability of officials to officiate properly in Belfast.

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Post by marty2086 Tue 07 Apr 2015, 2:10 pm

Chunky Norwich wrote:
clivemcl wrote:

So which is it - a refereeing/citing debate, or an anti-ulster crusade? I think I know...

Start your own thread then instead of whining. This one is about the continued inability of officials to officiate properly in Belfast.

No its about your warped belief that thats the case

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Post by Pete330v2 Tue 07 Apr 2015, 2:16 pm

marty2086 wrote:
Chunky Norwich wrote:
clivemcl wrote:

So which is it - a refereeing/citing debate, or an anti-ulster crusade? I think I know...

Start your own thread then instead of whining. This one is about the continued inability of officials to officiate properly in Belfast.

No its about your warped belief that thats the case

Warped doesn't do this half-wit justice Clive. He/She is a constant WUM and thankfully will never be taken seriously by anyone on this forum so let the twit waffle on.

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Post by Chunky Norwich Tue 07 Apr 2015, 3:30 pm

Facts tell me it is something to at least have a chat about. Those facts being all the red cards that didn't get shown until after the game.

It's only "warped" to closed minds.

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Post by Nachos Jones_1 Tue 07 Apr 2015, 5:02 pm

Chunky Norwich wrote:Facts tell me it is something to at least have a chat about. Those facts being all the red cards that didn't get shown until after the game.


Chunky, is this something you have only ever noticed in Belfast? As I said in an earlier post, Leinster were accused of this a few years back, Munster as well. Even Welsh clubs have been accused of having a certain reputation for favourable ref decisions at home due to their crowds influencing the ref's. To me, every club will be (or has been) accused of such things so its not an Ulster thing. It may appear to be but does not necessarily mean that Ulster has more influence on ref's than any other club.

The ref's in the Pro-12 just seem to be having more off games than good ones this year, that to me is the real issue.

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Post by Notch Tue 07 Apr 2015, 5:23 pm

Chunky Norwich wrote:Facts tell me it is something to at least have a chat about. Those facts being all the red cards that didn't get shown until after the game.

I don't think you'll get a referee anywhere that would give red in the game for some of the incidents. The disciplinary panels have always been more harsh with what constitutes a red card than a referee on the night. I'm not so sure that's a bad thing either, taking Ulster out of it. We all want to see less foul play, we don't want to see more red cards which spoil games. For incidents which are clearly intentional and/or cause serious injury of course we want to see red, you could say that about the Williams challenge certainly, but for incidents which stand just as good a chance of being accidental, where there is no damage? These should only be judged after the fact with the benefit of as much time to make the decision as possible.

You say the referees were automatically wrong not to give reds because of the disciplinary ruling. But I seriously doubt even world class referees putting in world class performances would have given a red for every incident. In fact I think the only one we were lucky at the time not to get a red for was for Nick Williams' piece of idiocy. I think any other red cards would have been poor decisions at the time.
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Post by Chunky Norwich Wed 08 Apr 2015, 10:03 am

Notch wrote:
I don't think you'll get a referee anywhere that would give red in the game for some of the incidents.

I agree. The play happens at a very fast pace, and even when they watch it on the screen it is 100 yards away.

The TMO however has absolutely no excuse. And to recommend yellow to Nick Williams for an incident that got 16 weeks is a disgrace. But, as this thread proves, unsurprising.

Roger Wilson should have had a red card on the recommendation of the TMO too. But he didn't want to see the footage.

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Post by No 7&1/2 Wed 08 Apr 2015, 10:09 am

TMOs are generally not strong enough or the ref chooses to ignore them and lead them anyway. Nigel Owens is the only ref I can clearly recall going with the TMO despite not really agreeing with him, at least initially.

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Post by LordDowlais Wed 08 Apr 2015, 11:24 am

I remember during a game between Ospreys and Leinster, John Lacey asked for Derek Bevans advice for what happened when Ben Teo nocked Sam Davies out, Derek Bevan told him, that he used a fore arm smash, but Lacey decided to ignore him, he did not even give a pen for it, you could clearly see that at the least it was a yellow, but alas, at times I truley wonder why we bother with TMO's if the refs only use them as a cop out, or do not bother taking their advice at all.

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Post by Pete330v2 Fri 10 Apr 2015, 10:19 pm

Come on then whingers, how's about the Cardiff yellow that should have been red tonight? Not going to have a whinge or even a little moan as to why the red wasn't given? EH?

Nothing??

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Post by Pete330v2 Wed 13 May 2015, 3:10 pm

Henderson will not face ban after red card

"The Ulster player was sent off against Munster at the weekend
Ireland and Ulster star Iain Henderson will not face further sanction after last weeks red card against Munster.
He appeared today before an independent Pro12 Rugby Disciplinary Committee after being sent off.
The Disciplinary Committee, chaired by Roger Morris, along with Rhian Williams and Ray Wilton decided that the act did not warrant a red card.
Having viewed the incident in close-up, the Disciplinary Committee concluded that the player's initial contact with his opponent had not in fact been with his head but with his arm.
The Disciplinary Committee imposed no sanction on the player, who is free to resume playing immediately.

Henderson will now be eligible to play in Ulster's final league game of the season along with their play off campaign."


There you have it chunkles, a red card that actually wasn't

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Post by SecretFly Wed 13 May 2015, 4:02 pm

Reprehensible

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Post by Pete330v2 Wed 13 May 2015, 4:29 pm

SecretFly wrote:Reprehensible

Hilarious

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Post by Guest Wed 13 May 2015, 6:03 pm

Shameless

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Post by Pot Hale Wed 13 May 2015, 7:06 pm

Monosyllabic.
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Post by Guest Wed 13 May 2015, 7:11 pm

Stereotypical

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