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US Open Day 5 - Shall I Neel and ask her to Marray me? Or shall I just Peyer and give her the Haas Keys?

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Post by HM Murdock Fri 04 Sep 2015, 7:02 am

First topic message reminder :

Order of play
http://www.usopen.org/en_US/scores/schedule/index.html?promo=topnav

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Post by Belovedluckyboy Sat 05 Sep 2015, 1:21 pm

Rafa is just button mashing?

Well at least he wasnt standing a few metres behind the baseline when he won Wimbledon in 2008/2010; he wasnt doing that when he won Canada/Cincy/USO in 2013. Thats good enough for me that he can at least play differently! Oh not to mention USO2010 with a big serve.

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Post by Belovedluckyboy Sat 05 Sep 2015, 1:23 pm

Julius, i also read interviews where he said he enjoyed the attention and wasnt sure how he felt when given a side court to play, something to that effect.

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Post by temporary21 Sat 05 Sep 2015, 1:25 pm

I'm sure it's a bit of both.  Being worshipped like a god must give him a kick somewhere in there. In sure he just struggles to let go while he still thinks he can do stuff

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Post by JuliusHMarx Sat 05 Sep 2015, 1:29 pm

I see it more like Connors - he was hardly worshipped like a god, but carried on for the love of the playing game. I'm sure they get satisfaction from the enjoyment they give others, like rock bands and stage actors do, but a) I don't think it's their prime motivation and b) it's odd to present that as a negative quality in someone.

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Post by TheMessi Sat 05 Sep 2015, 1:31 pm

Belovedluckyboy wrote:The Messi, having less time between points may have affected Rafa, as he may feel rushed and not able to think clearly. However, it seems like Rafa is slowly adapting to the quicker time between points now.  I think he'll get used to it some day, hopefully soon.
I am not sure you can get used to running a marathon with 30mns to spare. Do you still believe here that those extra secs taken between points were irrelevant, just OCD? Over a 5 setter they are crucial.

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Post by Belovedluckyboy Sat 05 Sep 2015, 1:31 pm

Guest, used to happen to Fed and to a lesser extent to Novak, in the recent past. You forget Monfils vs Fed at Shanghai in 2013, in Paris Masters in 2010, Delbonis and Brands in 2013, Chardy at Rome and Stakhovsky at Wimbledon in 2013 to mention a few.

Novak lost to Haas, Isner, Dimi to name a few.

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Post by It Must Be Love Sat 05 Sep 2015, 1:36 pm

HM Murdock wrote:
It Must Be Love wrote:My analysis on Fognini:
He's Fognini.

That's the most rational in-depth analysis I think it's possible to do on the man.
Indeed.

One could make a similar analysis for Monfils.
Good comparison, I think both are similar.
I'd rate Fognini at his best higher than Monfils at his best, simply because Fognini's swing is shorter and he can generate pace with no time.

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Post by Belovedluckyboy Sat 05 Sep 2015, 1:37 pm

The Messi, if youve watched Rafa's matches here, you wouldve noticed hes playing and winning more shorter points here than his opponents. There are not many long rallies at least during this USO, its obvious Rafa is trying to shorten points. So going forward, Rafa may stick to this style of play and so takes shorter time between points. Rafa and his team is not stupid, theyll think of ways to overcome this problem.

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Post by Guest Sat 05 Sep 2015, 1:38 pm

I got a lot of love for the Fog! 

It's never dull that's for sure!

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Post by Born Slippy Sat 05 Sep 2015, 1:40 pm

Surely no one still believes that enforcement of time between points is a reason for Rafa playing badly? 2013 must have put that to bed.

He has had a lot of injuries, didn't get a great winter training block and isn't as young as he used to be. His game is highly dependent on fitness and confidence and he currently lacks both.

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Post by It Must Be Love Sat 05 Sep 2015, 1:41 pm

Born Slippy wrote:Surely no one still believes that enforcement of time between points is a reason for Rafa playing badly? 2013 must have put that to bed.

He has had a lot of injuries, didn't get a great winter training block and isn't as young as he used to be. His game is highly dependent on fitness and confidence and he currently lacks both.
He's taking more time between points now than he did in 2013

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Post by LuvSports! Sat 05 Sep 2015, 1:42 pm

Belovedluckyboy wrote:I doubt Rafa was physically fitter than Novak when he was away injured most part of 2012 and 2014.  Dont forget, Rafa's legs were shot after that AO2012 leading to his long layoff after Wimbledon that year.  He had to rebuild his fitness and stamina all over again when he came back early 2013, how could he he fitter than Novak then?  

In fact it was then that Rafa decided to play more agressively and so all his successes that year in 2013.  He started 2014 well but had that back injury that affected his 2014 season, not to mention his wrist injury.  How could he be fitter than Novak??

I put it in the context of his GS matches vs Novak.

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Post by Belovedluckyboy Sat 05 Sep 2015, 1:43 pm

Julius, in the first place it wasnt presented as a negative. I said its fine if Fed enjoys it... Its just that the trio may or may not be thinking like Fed.

I just dont buy why the trio must be compared to Fed in terms of longevity, I mean who are we to say that they sure want to be like Fed and plays for as long as possible even without winning?

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Post by Guest Sat 05 Sep 2015, 1:47 pm

Just watching the highlights of the match now and Nadal just looks flat all round. It's just not happening. We are guilty of isolating the drop of form to one thing, but it's a mess really. However, the Fog is playing some marvellous shots.

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Post by LuvSports! Sat 05 Sep 2015, 1:49 pm

I am ill atm, so i will watch matches from those times you mentioned BLB when rafa was "close to the baseline". 
I don't agree at all. He was closer, but never close. It's not his nature.

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Post by Guest Sat 05 Sep 2015, 1:53 pm

Your ill and your going to watch Rafa matches??

You sick puppy! Wink

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Post by LuvSports! Sat 05 Sep 2015, 1:53 pm

I have absolutely no life. Very Happy . 15 days until i am employed.

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Post by Belovedluckyboy Sat 05 Sep 2015, 1:54 pm

LS, Rafa surely wasn't fitter than Novak at the slams, I mean they both went toe to toe during AO2012, FO2012, FO2013 and USO2013. In fact it was Rafa who was suffering from cramping during FO2014 final in the fourth set due to the humidity: Novak had a stomach upset then but was feeling better towards the end of that match.

Rafa beat Novak then because of his better and more consistent high level of play, not by physically outlasting Novak. It's just like Novak was better at Wimbledon and USO2011 and slightly better in AO2012.

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Post by Belovedluckyboy Sat 05 Sep 2015, 1:57 pm

LS he certainly was playing close or even on the baseline at Wimvledon, no need to question that. Also he was way more aggressive at Montreal in 2013 and that's how he beat Novak. Watch that match again!

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Post by LuvSports! Sat 05 Sep 2015, 2:02 pm

Belovedluckyboy wrote:LS, Rafa surely wasn't fitter than Novak at the slams, I mean they both went toe to toe during AO2012, FO2012, FO2013 and USO2013.  In fact it was Rafa who was suffering from cramping during FO2014 final in the fourth set due to the humidity: Novak had a stomach upset then but was feeling better towards the end of that match.  

Rafa beat Novak then because of his better and more consistent high level of play, not by physically outlasting Novak.  It's just like Novak was better at Wimbledon and USO2011 and slightly better in AO2012.

I SAID AFTER AUS '12 GOD NAB IT! Sorry you had to see that. Like my Roy side coming out there from Primal Fear.

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Post by Belovedluckyboy Sat 05 Sep 2015, 2:05 pm

LS there's something wrong with you. Weren't FO2012, FO and USO2013 after AO2012?????

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Post by Belovedluckyboy Sat 05 Sep 2015, 2:09 pm

Take a rest LS, you're clearly unwell.

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Post by Guest82 Sat 05 Sep 2015, 2:13 pm

It's clearly not all down to fitness - Djokovic beat him in three simple sets at the French, Rafa didn't lose because he was gassed, but outplayed. I suspect if he got far enough to play the likes of Djokovic or Murray recently he would have lost quite routinely too.

He's losing close matches to Lopez and Fognini, so he's playing at about their level.

I know people have beaten Fed and Djokovic by playing well, but my point is that people are elevating the performances of Fognini, Rosol, Brown etc when nothing they've done before or after suggests they have that sort of level.

When Fed lost to Stakhovsky everyone was questioning Fed rather than pretending Stakhovsky had raised his game to this mythical level. Same as Djokovic losing to Melzer a few years ago at RG...questions about Djokovic and his serve (rightfully so too)

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Post by TRuffin Sat 05 Sep 2015, 2:16 pm

Belovedluckyboy wrote:LS, dont jump into conclusion yet.   If Fed who doesnt 'rely' on physicality needs a year to get back on track, why cant Rafa take a year too?

Fed didn't need a year to get back on track. His back injury was constant and flaring up throughout 2013 after Indian wells. Annacone said from that point on federer was not able to have one normal training block until after the wtf. Then fed had his 6 week rest and training back and was back to a high level by the Ao and continued to build.

Nadal, Toni and team have said he has been healthy the whole year and fully traiing. Multiple reports from Cahill who witnessed some training and others that nadal is training as hard as ever. Rafa may get back but using fed 2013 as an example is apples to oranges.

Besides you have changed your options and speculation on what's wrong with him umpteen times since beginning of the year. After Ao, you told us all he needed was his February training block and South American swing to be ready to dominate. You keep moving the goal posts.

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Post by temporary21 Sat 05 Sep 2015, 2:18 pm

Healthy. Doesn't mean match fit. Also bear in mind people don't usualky give away they're injured.  We don't even know if fed was actually that badly injured in 2013 either to be frank

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Post by Belovedluckyboy Sat 05 Sep 2015, 2:21 pm

I think we're questioning Rafa more than questioning his opponent ie Fog here.

Rafa mentioned in his presser that he himself played a normal game but Fog played better so Fog won. He said he's not happy with the loss (he couldn't play better) but accept that he lost to a better player.

So Fog did play well but not sure it's world standard but Rafa couldn't play better so he lost. Rafa was happy with the way he fought till the end but not with the way he himself played.

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Post by LuvSports! Sat 05 Sep 2015, 2:22 pm

Belovedluckyboy wrote:LS there's something wrong with you. Weren't FO2012, FO and USO2013 after AO2012?????

I'm a kooky fecker yes but I am fine.
You were the one who kept mentioning aus '12 despite the fact i said it was after that. 
Imo Rafa was physically stronger AFTER THEN. To me it is as obvious as a rhino turning up to a reptile only party. You;re in too deep BLB. Let it go.

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Post by bogbrush Sat 05 Sep 2015, 2:24 pm

Guest82 wrote:It's clearly not all down to fitness - Djokovic beat him in three simple sets at the French, Rafa didn't lose because he was gassed, but outplayed. I suspect if he got far enough to play the likes of Djokovic or Murray recently he would have lost quite routinely too.

He's losing close matches to Lopez and Fognini, so he's playing at about their level.

I know people have beaten Fed and Djokovic by playing well, but my point is that people are elevating the performances of Fognini, Rosol, Brown etc when nothing they've done before or after suggests they have that sort of level.

When Fed lost to Stakhovsky everyone was questioning Fed rather than pretending Stakhovsky had raised his game to this mythical level. Same as Djokovic losing to Melzer a few years ago at RG...questions about Djokovic and his serve (rightfully so too)
Exactly. Fognini would have been out of there in three brief sets against Djokovic or Federer last night.

Did nobody read my post about Fognini on hard courts for the last year? He's hopeless!!
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Post by LuvSports! Sat 05 Sep 2015, 2:25 pm

As General Melchett once said: 'If nothing else works, a total pig-headed unwillingness to look facts in the face will see us through'. Very Happy

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Post by Guest Sat 05 Sep 2015, 2:26 pm

Look on the bright side. Least he didn't get any TVs during his matches.

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Post by temporary21 Sat 05 Sep 2015, 2:26 pm

I must disagree. Novak was fitter in 2013. Game wise though he had a lull enough for rafa in brilliant form to make Inroads

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Post by temporary21 Sat 05 Sep 2015, 2:27 pm

That quote applies to basically everyone where it comes to fedal though n some way or another

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Post by TRuffin Sat 05 Sep 2015, 2:29 pm

It Must Be Love wrote:Nadal's 2015 is not the same as Federer's 2013, that is true; but I wouldn't write Nadal off either.

Not sure how many people watched the match, or just woke up to results in the morning, but for the latter category I'd recommend watching the fifth set.
Nadal was mentally fine, he was playing with the right attitude and didn't give much away on the big points. This was not a defeat due to mental lack of confidence like the match vs Raonic earlier this year for example.
Fognini's level in the last few sets was a joke, especially in the last set. Hitting 70+ winners given his mediocre serve (to be fair both Fognini and Nadal aren't exactly the biggest servers), is fantastic. He made some appalling mistakes too, but the 'redline' to 'shock errors' ratio was very high in favour of the former in the fifth set, if that makes sense. Fognini was hitting some ridiculous winners even when off balance and on the defence.

Obviously Nadal's aura is gone at the moment, and it won't be easy to get it back. Not impossible though. When you get a mix of a player like Fognini playing Nadal these days, he has the belief, he has the huge adrenaline of having a chance against a legend of the game, and he has the talent of Fognini. That's not a good combination. The aura is also part of the protection for top players.

Good post

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Post by temporary21 Sat 05 Sep 2015, 2:32 pm

Agreed truff. That's a pretty good assessment from a guy who was up to watch the whole match.  If next clay season he's still down on power I think then it might be time

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Post by lags72 Sat 05 Sep 2015, 2:33 pm

temporary21 wrote:Healthy. Doesn't mean match fit. Also bear in mind people don't usualky give away they're injured.  We don't even know if fed was actually that badly injured in 2013 either to be frank

I believe it's about 60 matches that Rafa has now played this season.

Just wondering many more you feel he might need before you consider him "match fit" ......... Headscratch

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Post by Belovedluckyboy Sat 05 Sep 2015, 2:39 pm

Excuse me Truffin, please don't put words into my mouth! I certainly didn't say that Rafa would dominate!

I'm not moving any goalpost, like you I'm speculating. I certainly didn't say Rafa for sure would be better etc and etc, I merely said he missed a training block so by the clay season he should be doing better. Was he better on clay than on the HCs of AO/IW/Miami? I think he was though not better than his 2014. I don't see where I shift the goalpost to be honest.

He did get better physically when his stamina returned to at least match fit levels, he was hitting some power puff FHs earlier on but he had since improved on that during the USO. I don't see where I shifted any goalpost.

As for him not dealing well with humidity, that's a known fact where he kept mentioning humidity in his pressers and interviews, mentioning that it's important he won the first set vs Coric for eg in those humid conditions.

As per Rafa he lost to Fog because Fog played better than him after the first two sets.

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Post by It Must Be Love Sat 05 Sep 2015, 2:42 pm

Nadal is definitely match fit. Apart from a very minor shoulder injury a month ago which quickly resolved, he's physically been fine too, so no excuses there.

Confidence in sport is a weird thing, and Nadal is slightly abnormal in this respect (for example he got huge confidence after losing AO2012, when most of his fans were probably distraught and lost confidence); but generally winning gives you confidence. He's played 60+ matches this year, but he hasn't won the closer ones. Tennis is a game of margins, he has to first start winning the closer matches against underdogs redlining; then he may build the confidence to start challenging the big guns.
Mental aspect and his game basics itself are interlinked, which is both a negative and positive for Nadal. Negative because atm he could put himself into a vicious cycle, but positive in that it gives him a chance of both coming back together.

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Post by Belovedluckyboy Sat 05 Sep 2015, 2:44 pm

LS, sorry I don't agree. In no way is Rafa fitter than Novak. Ok LS let it go...

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Post by It Must Be Love Sat 05 Sep 2015, 2:45 pm

First point Nadal is slightly unlucky with the net cord, but after that, what is he meant to do...


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Post by lags72 Sat 05 Sep 2015, 2:49 pm

Can't disagree with any of that IMBL.

Safe to say that none of his recent losses bear any relation to any perceived issues surrounding training blocks, injuries, match fitness, weather, etc etc.......

Confidence however is a key factor, as you highlight.

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Post by LuvSports! Sat 05 Sep 2015, 2:54 pm

Belovedluckyboy wrote:LS, sorry I don't agree. In no way is Rafa fitter than Novak. Ok LS let it go...

I will when you accurately see my views. You don't.

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Post by Belovedluckyboy Sat 05 Sep 2015, 2:58 pm

LS so be it. We don't agree that's all. I'll leave it at that.

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Post by greengoblin Sat 05 Sep 2015, 3:14 pm

Nadal needs to go to a flatter forehand. I don't think he'll win more grand slams because there are other players who do certain things better, but he can't keep on with his current forehand which is just sitting up inviting to be hit. This was always going to happen when he lost some of his strength and speed. You can't maintain that forever.

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Post by laverfan Sat 05 Sep 2015, 3:23 pm

Parts of this thread after Fognini won the match last night, belong in the Sticky GOAT debate, not in a USO MoTD thread.

Endless postmortems of Nadal's decline have become threads d'jour, and should be made a sticky, as does one each for Federer, Lopez, Ferrer, Haas, Stepanek, Monfils, etc. devil US Open Day 5 - Shall I Neel and ask her to Marray me? Or shall I just Peyer and give her the Haas Keys? - Page 5 3933776953

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Post by TheMessi Sat 05 Sep 2015, 3:36 pm

It Must Be Love wrote:
Born Slippy wrote:Surely no one still believes that enforcement of time between points is a reason for Rafa playing badly? 2013 must have put that to bed.

He has had a lot of injuries, didn't get a great winter training block and isn't as young as he used to be. His game is highly dependent on fitness and confidence and he currently lacks both.
He's taking more time between points now than he did in 2013
The difference is that in 2013 he managed to shorten the points and be successful with it thanks to Djoko being really under his "normal" level that year....so we do not know how Nadal would cope with 5 setters then.

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Post by It Must Be Love Sat 05 Sep 2015, 3:42 pm

TheMessi wrote:
It Must Be Love wrote:
Born Slippy wrote:Surely no one still believes that enforcement of time between points is a reason for Rafa playing badly? 2013 must have put that to bed.

He has had a lot of injuries, didn't get a great winter training block and isn't as young as he used to be. His game is highly dependent on fitness and confidence and he currently lacks both.
He's taking more time between points now than he did in 2013
The difference is that in 2013 he managed to shorten the points and be successful with it thanks to Djoko being really under his "normal" level that year....so we do not know how Nadal would cope with 5 setters then.
Yes, good point, he only played Djokovic that year, and none of those matches went to 5 sets. You're learning quickly !

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Post by TheMessi Sat 05 Sep 2015, 3:45 pm

It Must Be Love wrote:First point Nadal is slightly unlucky with the net cord, but after that, what is he meant to do...
Not send those spinless balls. They used to be very difficult to time. But to be fair the USO is faster this year and before they slowed it down (USO10) Nadal had not won v a seeded player there. Nadal main wins came from UEs. on this surface his he has no time to inject the spin and that makes his shots much easier to time.

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Post by Belovedluckyboy Sat 05 Sep 2015, 3:45 pm

Ha ha IMBL, good one there!

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