PRO12 has new Managing Director and he isn't Irish :D :yahoo:

First topic message reminder :

LordDowlais wrote:

marty2086 wrote:

PhilBB wrote:

marty2086 wrote:

Or maybe, just maybe everyone decided to pitch their hat into the ring and see what happened

Are all teams eligible?

Well considering they were all asked to tender for it that would mean they were

Marty, because the criteria has never been made public, none of us will never know.

Sure if we had facts then we wouldn't have these conspiracy theories. Where would be the fun in that?

ScarletSpiderman wrote:Ah that is because you are a lying welsh coward, and your word can not be trusted, whereas when a respectable poster comes out with claims it is good sportsmanship to accept them as fact without needing to see any evidence.

SS, I was at the Liberty Stadium on Sunday, and I watched people shaking their heads in disbelief over the referee, I saw and heard people getting peeved with the referee, and I saw people leaving and shaking their heads whilst airing their views on the ref, and yet, I was asked to provide a link for that. FFS, how can I do that ?

LordDowlais wrote:

SecretFly wrote:Jesus, this Chunky is a lazy bugger!

Please find the links for me.
Please read it for me and find the pertinent parts.
Please keep my argument going for an hour as I have to go do some chores.

Strange that, because that is what I am always asked to do, by you and the rest of your Irish brethren.

Never have I asked you to find me a link or read through the article to find me the passage I should respond to.

More untruths from Lord to juice up his arguments.

Munchkin wrote:

PhilBB wrote:

Munchkin wrote:

Wrong. Because, like a few others, he refuses to consider, and challenge, the failings of his own Region. He takes the cowards way out and blames anyone else for those failings.

P.s I did explain this.

Right. I guess that you've never read my blog. Or that you cannot remember our discussion on Roger Lewis. Or that you've not seen my twitter output.

I think that those are three fair assumptions, right?

You blamed the Regions for the Regions failings. You're right, I didn't see it. Got a link?

Yep thats right, we know our own problems, but hopefully that is now all behind us now the war is over.

SecretFly wrote:

LordDowlais wrote:

SecretFly wrote:Jesus, this Chunky is a lazy bugger!

Please find the links for me.
Please read it for me and find the pertinent parts.
Please keep my argument going for an hour as I have to go do some chores.

Strange that, because that is what I am always asked to do, by you and the rest of your Irish brethren.

Never have I asked you to find me a link or read through the article to find me the passage I should respond to.

More untruths from Lord to juice up his arguments.

OK perhaps you haven't, but I very much doubt that.

No 7&1/2 wrote:You've previosuly quoted all the info about Chunky and assured everyone BT would bid far higher for the B&I league so I don't know why I'm even having to trawel through old articles finding stuff discussed before.

Slightly misleading. I've said that is the way to go if we want to close the gap with the French, and the Celtic teams should be doing their utmost to make it happen. Those that cannot see it, must surely not udnerstand the current rugby landscape.

I ask for a link to new discsusion that the Welsh, Scots and English have agreed to a B&I league and are only waiting on the Irish for the go ahead and you're on your high horse!

Because you know that info would not be in the public domain.

ScarletSpiderman wrote:

Munchkin wrote:

ScarletSpiderman wrote:

Munchkin wrote:

ScarletSpiderman wrote:

Munchkin wrote:I think the home support is more important. Broadcasters don't want half empty stadiums.

Possibly.  I was thinking more along the lines of the clubs wanting to make sure that the Irish bring their support and atmosphere over with them, which is most certainly something that does not happen in the Pro12.

(p.s. the broadcasters can't really mind an empty stadium, they have Sky have been at PYS a fair few times).

I would think the broadcasters do mind an empty stadium. Thinking back to that Scarlets v Ulster game last season, it was a great game for SKY, and although the stadium wasn't full, you could hardly describe it as empty. The atmosphere, I think, was pretty good.

You've lost me now, they either-:

1) want full stadiums and do mind empty stadiums
2) want to televise an entertaining game of rugby with a good atmosphere, and don not mind empty stadiums (like the Scarlets/Ulster games last two seasons, which they aired)

I think the atmosphere was good at that game, not great. It wasn't packed. There were plenty of empty seats on view. Although the atmosphere was good, imagine what it would be like with a packed stadium. That's what broadcasters want. They also want plenty of away fans, but that's not as important as having a packed stadium.

As a general rule, the more away fans the better the atmosphere.  So it is the Irish letting the side down then by not travelling to support their side.

Now you're being obtuse.

I did say that broadcasters would view packed stadiums as being more important to them than numbers of visiting away fans. Not that a good number of away fans doesn't add to the atmosphere.

I also commented that due to austere times, fans may not be able to travel to as many games as they would otherwise, and will instead prioritise which games they will travel to. Those games will mostly be European games.

You are cherry picking which bits of my replies to you best fits you own response.

No perhaps in it.

Stop floating rubbish until you can back it up. I'd go to court to say I never remotely asked you to find a link (I seldom if ever have asked anyone for a link to anything)

You can't just slide proto pretend facts around and expect people to just sit back and take them, especially of the personal kind, Lord.

I never asked you to find me a link...period.

Chunky Norwich wrote:

No 7&1/2 wrote:You've previosuly quoted all the info about Chunky and assured everyone BT would bid far higher for the B&I league so I don't know why I'm even having to trawel through old articles finding stuff discussed before.

Slightly misleading. I've said that is the way to go if we want to close the gap with the French, and the Celtic teams should be doing their utmost to make it happen. Those that cannot see it, must surely not udnerstand the current rugby landscape.

I ask for a link to new discsusion that the Welsh, Scots and English have agreed to a B&I league and are only waiting on the Irish for the go ahead and you're on your high horse!

Because you know that info would not be in the public domain.

You that was the way to go yes and you were confident that BT would offer as much money as was necessary rather than what would suit that private company. You taking that back?

So from your 2nd point both you and Phil are involved in the inner workings?

Munchkin wrote:

PhilBB wrote:

Munchkin wrote:

Wrong. Because, like a few others, he refuses to consider, and challenge, the failings of his own Region. He takes the cowards way out and blames anyone else for those failings.

P.s I did explain this.

Right. I guess that you've never read my blog. Or that you cannot remember our discussion on Roger Lewis. Or that you've not seen my twitter output.

I think that those are three fair assumptions, right?

You blamed the Regions for the Regions failings. You're right, I didn't see it. Got a link?

Plemty of criticism towards the regions here:

https://rugbyphilbb.wordpress.com/2013/04/

SecretFly wrote:Stop floating rubbish until you can back it up

There we are, you are doing it right there.

No 7&1/2 wrote:

You that was the way to go yes and you were confident that BT would offer as much money as was necessary rather than what would suit that private company. You taking that back?

So from your 2nd point both you and Phil are involved in the inner workings?

I'm not involved in anything. I just know what I know, I read between the lines, I encourage broader thinking where I can, and I want the game in Wales to be as successful as possible.

For this, I get called a wind up merchant.

So you've made it up then Chunky and Phil is involved in the behind the scenes stuff?

Where did you get the idea that BT would happily pay whatever it took to get Wales on a level footing rather than base it on a busienss decision? I see that point as pie in the sky.

LordDowlais wrote:

SecretFly wrote:Stop floating rubbish until you can back it up

There we are, you are doing it right there.

The burden of proof is with you... get it? If you call your neighbour an axe murderer - you have to tell the cops why you know that to be true.

Of course I did the research last season, remember - to disprove the junk you were talking about how bad a time Welsh teams were having with Irish refs...
Your "Infamy! Infamy. They all have it in for me!!!" Kenneth Williams moment.

No 7&1/2 wrote:You've previosuly quoted all the info about Chunky and assured everyone BT would bid far higher for the B&I league so I don't know why I'm even having to trawel through old articles finding stuff discussed before. I ask for a link to new discsusion that the Welsh, Scots and English have agreed to a B&I league and are only waiting on the Irish for the go ahead and you're on your high horse!

You told me that BT bid above the market rate. It doesn't seem that you can substantiate that claim.

SecretFly wrote:

LordDowlais wrote:

SecretFly wrote:Stop floating rubbish until you can back it up

There we are, you are doing it right there.

The burden of proof is with you...  get it?  If you call your neighbour an axe murderer - you have to tell the cops why you know that to be true.

Of course I did the research last season, remember - to disprove the junk you were talking about how bad a time Welsh teams were having with Irish refs...
Your "Infamy! Infamy.  They all have it in for me!!!" Kenneth Williams moment.

I have all the proof I need. You have just typed it for me.

Anyway, it's off to the international section for me. There's a World Cup coming I'd like to talk about instead.

PhilBB wrote:

No 7&1/2 wrote:You've previosuly quoted all the info about Chunky and assured everyone BT would bid far higher for the B&I league so I don't know why I'm even having to trawel through old articles finding stuff discussed before. I ask for a link to new discsusion that the Welsh, Scots and English have agreed to a B&I league and are only waiting on the Irish for the go ahead and you're on your high horse!

You told me that BT bid above the market rate. It doesn't seem that you can substantiate that claim.

Fine I can't. You're the expert in this area. And you obviously have behind the scenes knowledge. I'll bow down to the fact that BT will pay anything it takes to bring Wales up to the same level as the French.

Chunky Norwich wrote:
I want the game in Wales to be as successful as possible.

Most honest, heartfelt and noble comment I've heard from Chunky since ...well, since I've know of his existence.

Pity he snarls so much with the blame game and wastes the energy he might use better to champion the greater success of Welsh rugby.[/quote]

ScarletSpiderman wrote:

Munchkin wrote:The capacity in their stadiums is a fact. I would be delighted for any side that is continually increasing in attendance. Why wouldn't I? It's progress. Glasgow are a growing success. They are ambitious and are very active in realising that ambition. They are not a team that wallows in self pity, blaming all else for their failings in the past. They identified their needs, and are meeting those needs head on. They are a team I can respect.

Well that would be the Cardiff Blues then yeah?  They have had an increase in average attendance too up to 11,275 last season from 7,667 back in the 11/12 season.  But hang on they are one of the Welsh regions who are not getting the crowds in.

Or maybe you want to look at the Dragons,  from 6,094 in 11/12 up to 10,272 last season.  Another increase in average attendance from one of those poorly attended welsh regions

The Ospreys pulled in 8,389 last season, and were only getting 7,917 in 11/12.  Oh that is another increase form another of the regions.

So that leaves the Scarlets, 11/12 they had an attendance of 9,483.  This dropped to 7,746 the season after, 7,218 the following season, and sadly 7,069 last season.  Yes, they are not doing well.  The signs this season are that we have sold 4k+ season tickets, so fingers crossed they have improved.

But going by these stats, maybe you should be considering an apology to the regions for complaining about their low attendances, and going by your own words you should be delighted for them.

I agree. The Pro12 is a growing success, and the attendance figures are up, generally, and those sides that are increasing in attendance are to be applauded, especially Cardiff and Dragon, for the Regions.

You are the one that brought up attendance figures 'not being acceptable', and one of my earlier replies explained that I wasn't speaking of all clubs. That's why I made mention of Glasgow. Glasgow being the most obvious success (success measured by growing attendance and silverware) outside of Ireland, in recent times.

The more fans that the Regions attract, the more likely the away support will grow, although that growth will still be impacted by how much fans can afford to travel, as already explained.

So then, are we agreed that the Pro12 is a growing success, as evidenced by the figures you show? and that perhaps the only Region that needs to do more in attracting attendance is the Scarlets?

LordDowlais wrote:Anyway, it's off to the international section for me. There's a World Cup coming I'd like to talk about instead.

...rushing off with the proof?

Bye then. See you over there sometime.

Munchkin wrote:

PhilBB wrote:

Munchkin wrote:

Wrong. Because, like a few others, he refuses to consider, and challenge, the failings of his own Region. He takes the cowards way out and blames anyone else for those failings.

P.s I did explain this.

Right. I guess that you've never read my blog. Or that you cannot remember our discussion on Roger Lewis. Or that you've not seen my twitter output.

I think that those are three fair assumptions, right?

You blamed the Regions for the Regions failings. You're right, I didn't see it. Got a link?

You cannot blame the Pro Teams in Wales in isolation, of course. But you might want to start with these (and please excuse the chronology):

https://rugbyphilbb.wordpress.com/2013/04/02/what-are-they-fighting-for/
https://rugbyphilbb.wordpress.com/2014/12/14/where-is-everybody/
https://rugbyphilbb.wordpress.com/2014/01/15/dogma-or-financial-common-sense/
https://rugbyphilbb.wordpress.com/2013/09/22/the-decline-of-a-once-great-club/
https://rugbyphilbb.wordpress.com/2013/04/23/what-is-there-to-support/
https://rugbyphilbb.wordpress.com/2013/04/16/sink-or-swim/
https://rugbyphilbb.wordpress.com/2013/04/10/give-us-the-information-so-that-we-can-decide/

That might give you a better picture of how things work in Wales. You'll note, after reading those, that the 'coward' claim was rather misplaced but, in fairness, you weren't to know that.

No 7&1/2 wrote:

Chunky Norwich wrote:

No 7&1/2 wrote:You've previosuly quoted all the info about Chunky and assured everyone BT would bid far higher for the B&I league so I don't know why I'm even having to trawel through old articles finding stuff discussed before.

Slightly misleading. I've said that is the way to go if we want to close the gap with the French, and the Celtic teams should be doing their utmost to make it happen. Those that cannot see it, must surely not udnerstand the current rugby landscape.

I ask for a link to new discsusion that the Welsh, Scots and English have agreed to a B&I league and are only waiting on the Irish for the go ahead and you're on your high horse!

Because you know that info would not be in the public domain.

You that was the way to go yes and you were confident that BT would offer as much money as was necessary rather than what would suit that private company. You taking that back?

So from your 2nd point both you and Phil are involved in the inner workings?

I'm not involved in the inner workings.

No 7&1/2 wrote:

PhilBB wrote:

No 7&1/2 wrote:You've previosuly quoted all the info about Chunky and assured everyone BT would bid far higher for the B&I league so I don't know why I'm even having to trawel through old articles finding stuff discussed before. I ask for a link to new discsusion that the Welsh, Scots and English have agreed to a B&I league and are only waiting on the Irish for the go ahead and you're on your high horse!

You told me that BT bid above the market rate. It doesn't seem that you can substantiate that claim.

Fine I can't. You're the expert in this area. And you obviously have behind the scenes knowledge. I'll bow down to the fact that BT will pay anything it takes to bring Wales up to the same level as the French.

Why did you write that?

I wrote it as that as Chunky's point about BT, that they are willing to pay the amount of money that would mean the Welsh can compete financially rather than the bid the amount they think they can get the rights for.

ScarletSpiderman wrote:

Munchkin wrote:The capacity in their stadiums is a fact. I would be delighted for any side that is continually increasing in attendance. Why wouldn't I? It's progress. Glasgow are a growing success. They are ambitious and are very active in realising that ambition. They are not a team that wallows in self pity, blaming all else for their failings in the past. They identified their needs, and are meeting those needs head on. They are a team I can respect.

Well that would be the Cardiff Blues then yeah?  They have had an increase in average attendance too up to 11,275 last season from 7,667 back in the 11/12 season.  But hang on they are one of the Welsh regions who are not getting the crowds in.

Or maybe you want to look at the Dragons,  from 6,094 in 11/12 up to 10,272 last season.  Another increase in average attendance from one of those poorly attended welsh regions

The Ospreys pulled in 8,389 last season, and were only getting 7,917 in 11/12.  Oh that is another increase form another of the regions.

So that leaves the Scarlets, 11/12 they had an attendance of 9,483.  This dropped to 7,746 the season after, 7,218 the following season, and sadly 7,069 last season.  Yes, they are not doing well.  The signs this season are that we have sold 4k+ season tickets, so fingers crossed they have improved.

But going by these stats, maybe you should be considering an apology to the regions for complaining about their low attendances, and going by your own words you should be delighted for them.

Oof. You coward!

No 7&1/2 wrote:I wrote it as that as Chunky's point about BT, that they are willing to pay the amount of money that would mean the Welsh can compete financially rather than the bid the amount they think they can get the rights for.

Oh, I see that you've concluded the two figures wouldn't be similar. Did he mention France?

PhilBB wrote:

No 7&1/2 wrote:I wrote it as that as Chunky's point about BT, that they are willing to pay the amount of money that would mean the Welsh can compete financially rather than the bid the amount they think they can get the rights for.

Oh, I see that you've concluded the two figures wouldn't be similar. Did he mention France?

The figures needed would have to be higher than the 2 current leagues right put together, given BT have spent too much already I think it's unrealistic that they would spend more just to help out the Pro 12 teams out of the goodness of their hearts as they are a business not charity. Yes he mentioned France in respect we all need to club together to match them.

As Chunky has now said he was reading between the lines for the agreement between the Scots, Enlgish and Welsh, is that also how you have your info?

PhilBB wrote:

Munchkin wrote:

PhilBB wrote:

Munchkin wrote:

Wrong. Because, like a few others, he refuses to consider, and challenge, the failings of his own Region. He takes the cowards way out and blames anyone else for those failings.

P.s I did explain this.

Right. I guess that you've never read my blog. Or that you cannot remember our discussion on Roger Lewis. Or that you've not seen my twitter output.

I think that those are three fair assumptions, right?

You blamed the Regions for the Regions failings. You're right, I didn't see it. Got a link?

You cannot blame the Pro Teams in Wales in isolation, of course. But you might want to start with these (and please excuse the chronology):

https://rugbyphilbb.wordpress.com/2013/04/02/what-are-they-fighting-for/
https://rugbyphilbb.wordpress.com/2014/12/14/where-is-everybody/
https://rugbyphilbb.wordpress.com/2014/01/15/dogma-or-financial-common-sense/
https://rugbyphilbb.wordpress.com/2013/09/22/the-decline-of-a-once-great-club/
https://rugbyphilbb.wordpress.com/2013/04/23/what-is-there-to-support/
https://rugbyphilbb.wordpress.com/2013/04/16/sink-or-swim/
https://rugbyphilbb.wordpress.com/2013/04/10/give-us-the-information-so-that-we-can-decide/

That might give you a better picture of how things work in Wales. You'll note, after reading those, that the 'coward' claim was rather misplaced but, in fairness, you weren't to know that.

Thanks, Phil.

I have only read three, so far, but will read the rest later on.

You make a few interesting points, but the strongest condemnation of the Regions I have read, thus far, is that they didn't communicate effectively. All other fault seems to lie at the feet of Lewis. It could be that you're more critical of the Regions in some of the other links though.

Still, interesting links, and thanks again.

No 7&1/2 wrote:

The figures needed would have to be higher than the 2 current leagues right put together, given BT have spent too much already I think it's unrealistic that they would spend more just to help out the Pro 12 teams out of the goodness of their hearts as they are a business not charity. Yes he mentioned France in respect we all need to club together to match them.

As Chunky has now said he was reading between the lines for the agreement between the Scots, Enlgish and Welsh, is that also how you have your info?

My information dried up recently after discussions sidetracked on to support for Ireland's bid for the RWC with regards to progressing to a B&I league. All parties understand that it is the obvious route to go in order to challenged the French, but the make up of it and control of it are sticking points. We've a new broom at the WRU with Lewis out of the window and it's possible that the WRU would allow PRW to control its interest in the league. As we know, PRL run the Aviva Premiership 'under agreement' from the RFU. The Scots threw their lot in with PRL and PRW during the ERC fiasco. The only stumbling block that remains is the IRFU.

I can understand the Welsh and the Scots keen to join up; why the English. They have a very good tv deal, it's not the money made holding them back.

Which clubs would be sacrificed to the 2nd tier of this British league, they couldn't all go in; or who would remain in the remnants of old comps.

Munchkin wrote:

Thanks, Phil.

I have only read three, so far, but will read the rest later on.

You make a few interesting points, but the strongest condemnation of the Regions I have read, thus far, is that they didn't communicate effectively. All other fault seems to lie at the feet of Lewis. It could be that you're more critical of the Regions in some of the other links though.

Still, interesting links, and thanks again.

Strewth, thanks for reading three! Most don't finish one!

I'll always be more critical of Lewis, even the WRU commissioned PWC report was, because PRW in Wales act in a vacuum. They cannot influence their external market at all - cannot choose the league they want to compete in, cannot influence the broadcast contract they play under, cannot influence kick off times.

This means that how their product gets to market is out of their reach. It's a crazy, crazy situation. To add to that, nobody would suggest that PRW would (given the choice) choose to play in the PrO'12 if four places were available within a structured English system.

Our natural market is, understandably, where our land borders lie and where our rugby history lies.

Therefore, whilst PRW are still a shambolic organisation and far too weak, they have been and continue to be hamstrung.

No 7&1/2 wrote:I can understand the Welsh and the Scots keen to join up; why the English. They have a very good tv deal, it's not the money made holding them back.

Which clubs would be sacrificed to the 2nd tier of this British league, they couldn't all go in; or who would remain in the remnants of old comps.

Having a 'very good tv deal' is not the same has having 'the best TV deal possible'.

The set up could easily start on a conference basis over a defined time before moving to a two division set up, a la France.

There are multiple possibilities.

But England are already there. How would more money through TV help England with the French clubs though? As I've said they would need a bit more money than they already get to make relinqishing power to the Irish (who I hear only look after themselves) palatable. In all other examples of tiered levels of sport the lower devisions get lower money so how would the lower level English clubs be enticed to lower their income and increase competition?

Munchkin wrote:

ScarletSpiderman wrote:

Munchkin wrote:The capacity in their stadiums is a fact. I would be delighted for any side that is continually increasing in attendance. Why wouldn't I? It's progress. Glasgow are a growing success. They are ambitious and are very active in realising that ambition. They are not a team that wallows in self pity, blaming all else for their failings in the past. They identified their needs, and are meeting those needs head on. They are a team I can respect.

Well that would be the Cardiff Blues then yeah?  They have had an increase in average attendance too up to 11,275 last season from 7,667 back in the 11/12 season.  But hang on they are one of the Welsh regions who are not getting the crowds in.

Or maybe you want to look at the Dragons,  from 6,094 in 11/12 up to 10,272 last season.  Another increase in average attendance from one of those poorly attended welsh regions

The Ospreys pulled in 8,389 last season, and were only getting 7,917 in 11/12.  Oh that is another increase form another of the regions.

So that leaves the Scarlets, 11/12 they had an attendance of 9,483.  This dropped to 7,746 the season after, 7,218 the following season, and sadly 7,069 last season.  Yes, they are not doing well.  The signs this season are that we have sold 4k+ season tickets, so fingers crossed they have improved.

But going by these stats, maybe you should be considering an apology to the regions for complaining about their low attendances, and going by your own words you should be delighted for them.

I agree. The Pro12 is a growing success, and the attendance figures are up, generally, and those sides that are increasing in attendance are to be applauded, especially Cardiff and Dragon, for the Regions.

You are the one that brought up attendance figures 'not being acceptable', and one of my earlier replies explained that I wasn't speaking of all clubs. That's why I made mention of Glasgow. Glasgow being the most obvious success (success measured by growing attendance and silverware) outside of Ireland, in recent times.

The more fans that the Regions attract, the more likely the away support will grow, although that growth will still be impacted by how much fans can afford to travel, as already explained.

So then, are we agreed that the Pro12 is a growing success, as evidenced by the figures you show? and that perhaps the only Region that needs to do more in attracting attendance is the Scarlets?

No I was not. That would be Fly (I believe) or Sin. I responded to it and then me and you got into this debate. The truth is though (and maybe when your aware of it you will notice it too) there is a trend of Irish posters running down welsh attendances. There were comments in the Scarlets/Ulster thread about it, and there are generally comments in all most match day threads.

I am more in the camp of Lord than Chunky, I do think the Pro12 could be a good thing. However there are major flaws that do need to be corrected. The playoffs were a good improvement, and the euro qualification is also an improvement. But these are just the start. We do need to get a the refereeing issue sorted, and we do need to start getting a set of rules (non-qualified players, salary caps, etc) that are applied to all of the teams in the league.

The Scarlets are struggling a bit, however that has been as a result of losing 'star' players, struggling to hold on to a coaching team etc., there are signs that things are improving, so come the end of the season we shall see if attendances are up or down.

ScarletSpiderman wrote:

Munchkin wrote:

You are the one that brought up attendance figures 'not being acceptable',

No I was not.  That would be Fly (I believe) or Sin.  

Nope, I didn't bring it up. Merely responded to the issue that was brought up by someone else. The search continues

ScarletSpiderman wrote:I am more in the camp of Lord than Chunky, I do think the Pro12 could be a good thing. However there are major flaws that do need to be corrected. The playoffs were a good improvement, and the euro qualification is also an improvement. But these are just the start. We do need to get a the refereeing issue sorted, and we do need to start getting a set of rules (non-qualified players, salary caps, etc) that are applied to all of the teams in the league.

I agree with this 100%. The thing is the Irish members on this forum think there is nothing wrong with the league. They think this because as it is, the league suits them and how their union is run.

LordDowlais wrote:

Chunky Norwich wrote:

No 7&1/2 wrote:don't make stuff up.

Why is something that you're not aware of, always "made up"?

Yes, I hate this about our forum. It's always, show me a link, get me the evidence. I was asked about evidence on this thread to show how bad refereeing is turning fans away. FFS. How can I provide a link for something I witnessed first hand at the stadium in which I was sitting and saw it.

When you make sweeping statements like

LordDowlais wrote:the crap referees are turning people away from our league

It is perfectly reasonable to ask for proof to support your assertion. The facts are that you were at a match where some unspecified number of people were leaving some time before the final whistle. Some percentage of those people were shaking their heads.

Your interpretation is that they were leaving because of the referee. They could also have been shaking their heads because they were disappointed in their team or the coach or because they had just lost a bet or any number of reasons. In other words your interpretation isn’t conclusive proof that crap referees are turning people away from the League. Do you not think that the Pro12 would want proof that the system is broken before levying X thousand pounds from the teams to fix it?

If you seriously want the League to improve you should find some evidence of where it is going wrong, because without it no one will either believe you or more importantly invest hard cash to change it.

The Great Aukster wrote:Your interpretation is that they were leaving because of the referee. They could also have been shaking their heads because they were disappointed in their team or the coach or because they had just lost a bet or any number of reasons. In other words your interpretation isn’t conclusive proof that crap referees are turning people away from the League. Do you not think that the Pro12 would want proof that the system is broken before levying X thousand pounds from the teams to fix it?

So when I see a person infront of me getting up and saying, "I cannot take anymore of this, this ref is ruining the game, I'm off" what he means is, "Ah no there goes my bet, I am going home".

FFS, I know what I am seeing, and what I am hearing a few feet away from me mun.

P.S, I am not only on about last Sunday, I am talking over the past few seasons.

[quote="Sin é"]

No 7&1/2 wrote:
Mick Dawson (Leinster Rugby) said that he had been approached by a couple of English clubs who were only interested in taking in the Big 3 Irish Provinces (because of their travelling support).

Sin brought up attendances. Fly then went off on one stating that despite Irish fans prioritising other competitions,attendance was a Welsh issue alone. Despite us attracting higher per capita support in a climate of teams woefully underfunded being free to watch on TV.

Stone Motif wrote:

Sin é wrote:
Mick Dawson (Leinster Rugby) said that he had been approached by a couple of English clubs who were only interested in taking in the Big 3 Irish Provinces (because of their travelling support).

Sin brought up attendances. Fly then went off on one stating that despite Irish fans prioritising other competitions,attendance was a Welsh issue alone. Despite us attracting higher per capita support in a climate of teams woefully underfunded being free to watch on TV.

Thank for that Stone.

I have put a bit in bold on Sin é's post to back up my argument that there are claims the Irish bring decent travelling support, which is just not the case in the league.  I knew that when I was making that point earlier it was relevant, and that Irish home attendances were not relevant to the argument.

Not my quote.

No 7&1/2 wrote:Not my quote.

But you quoted somebody else's quote.

I didn't say' Mick Dawson (Leinster Rugby) said that he had been approached by a couple of English clubs who were only interested in taking in the Big 3 Irish Provinces (because of their travelling support).'

PhilBB wrote:

My information dried up recently after discussions sidetracked on to support for Ireland's bid for the RWC with regards to progressing to a B&I league. All parties understand that it is the obvious route to go in order to challenged the French, but the make up of it and control of it are sticking points. We've a new broom at the WRU with Lewis out of the window and it's possible that the WRU would allow PRW to control its interest in the league. As we know, PRL run the Aviva Premiership 'under agreement' from the RFU. The Scots threw their lot in with PRL and PRW during the ERC fiasco. The only stumbling block that remains is the IRFU.

That's the problem I have with this rosey assumption that everything will be grand with a B&I competition.  Grand for who?

For our part - on our island - it seems we're needed for some viability reason, though hardly wanted for our own sake.  We're presumably a tool needed to open the seed that gives the potential riches.

My problem with all that is perhaps obvious.  Many commentators seem to want a British League - natural market, landlocked natural area, easy travelling, tradition etc.  We're a frustrating bit that has to be factored in grudgingly to get English approval for another look at a British Contest.
The fact remains though that three quarters (and more in territory terms) of Irish rugby ain't British.  And planes, trains and automobiles are still going to be needed for fans to engage in any B&I competition. Everyone is out for themselves.  Everyone is out for their own selfish interest.  And naturally so.  But it's time to admit it.  We're not one nation.  Our values, our methods and our aspirations are different.

But all I ever see when the talk gets down to detail on these proposed new contests is Initials of Interested parties.  WRU, PRW, PRL, RFU..... and the awkward Irish bit,  IRFU.


Administration of a Competition and control of a Competition would be MAJOR issues to sort out.  Not done casually overnight on a postage stamp - as the European debate has proven beyond doubt.  Sensitivities were run-over at that party.  Bad bad blood was the result all round.  We're still to an extent living with the raw emotions of that debate and conclusion. Nobody cared who they offended (admin or fans) - just give me the money!!!!  We don't care who doesn't like what's going on - majority rule - take what you get or f**k off.

If that's to be the negotiating strategy adopted for any proposed B&I league then the European crap will look like a doddle and all this current guff from people on all sides here will look tame indeed.  Four Union areas - Two distinct Political Nations.  MUST be Respected fully - no grey areas.  We're not one Nation.  France is.  There would be no casual ignorance of the fact that two distinct nations and four Union areas are agreeing a deal - not twelve or fourteen privately run rugby outfits.  This is - whether certain people want to admit it or not - an agreement of Nations, NOT an agreement of stateless Club CEOs.  

So, if Unions were to be involved (and I've heard WRU, RFU and IRFU mentioned) then Unions would to be involved - four way split in authority and administration - equal.  If Owners are only involved - then no need for RFU or WRU.  IRFU own four.  RFU and WRU (allegedly) have no ownership interests.

So which is it to be?  Because there is no way IRFU will be sitting down and saying they're happy that Wales have more votes at this B&I table than them because of this neat division of interest trick between the WRU and PRW.  Nor indeed will they accept slave donkey duty out on the hinterland from the neat division of interest trick that the RFU and PRL pull.

Four distinct spheres of rugby influence (Union areas) solidly recognised - nobody telling anybody else how to reform, or attempting to control development structures within one Union area from without a Union area due to more votes at a mere 'club' competition table.

So Equal division of rights amongst four.  
Equal places on administration for four.  
No run-away budgets by a chosen few (and strident rebuttal of sponsorship pressures from people such as BT or SKY to allow markets to decide) - a cap that means something and sticks - and sticks!

If all that was a given then something potentially could happen.  But a B&I competition merely used as a cover for Power struggles designed to weaken some Unions at the expense of others.  No way.

No 7&1/2 wrote:I didn't say' Mick Dawson (Leinster Rugby) said that he had been approached by a couple of English clubs who were only interested in taking in the Big 3 Irish Provinces (because of their travelling support).'

Apologies, I have just looked through my posts. Yes it was Sin's quote. I will go back and adjust my last post to reflect that (minor downside to all the quote upon quotes on here).

Stone Motif wrote:

Sin é wrote:

No 7&1/2 wrote:
Mick Dawson (Leinster Rugby) said that he had been approached by a couple of English clubs who were only interested in taking in the Big 3 Irish Provinces (because of their travelling support).

Sin brought up attendances. Fly then went off on one stating that despite Irish fans prioritising other competitions,attendance was a Welsh issue alone. Despite us attracting higher per capita support in a climate of teams woefully underfunded being free to watch on TV.

Higher per capita. Grand. Glad you're finally happy on the attendance issue. That took a long time to come. I've been here a long time and it's a first for Welsh Regional rugby to be happy about that.

Progress.

Welsh fans must be beginning to LOVE Pro12 ....... Break open the Champagne

No 7&1/2 wrote:I didn't say' Mick Dawson (Leinster Rugby) said that he had been approached by a couple of English clubs who were only interested in taking in the Big 3 Irish Provinces (because of their travelling support).'

Sorry that was Sin e. You were just agreeing with him.

No 7&1/2 wrote:Not my quote.

It was Sins post. My bad.

Fly, another element I brought up previously is the French and the ERCC.

How will qualification work for the tournament?
Does the current participation agreement forbid the leagues existence?
How much value will it knock off the ERCC due to a diminishment in the value of the games?

Fly, feel better to get it off your chest and actually post something other than a sarcastic swipe at someone else?