England Post World Cup

by Geordie Sun 04 Oct 2015, 3:32 pm

First topic message reminder :

Who comes in...and who goes

How about this team for the next game after the WC

1 Marler
2 Tommy Taylor (Sale)
3 Cole
4 Launchbury
5 Lawes (Itoje on the bench)
6 Ewers
7 Kvesic (Clifford on the bench)
8 Morgan

9 Youngs
10 Slade
11 May
12 Tom Stepheson / Sam Hill
13 Joseph
14 Watson
15 Brown

by Sgt_Pooly Mon 05 Oct 2015, 11:35 am

Good squad Bam.

I can't get my head around Ewers and Kvesic getting a spot, the latter especially.

by Geordie Mon 05 Oct 2015, 11:39 am

What is it you don't like SGt.

To me he looks like he has absolutely everything you want in a 7. And hes a captain.

by screamingaddabs Mon 05 Oct 2015, 11:46 am

Any Bath fans to give a view on Devoto? I saw him play maybe 4 games last season (as in I only watched four games with him in, not that he didn't play more), and every time he looked fantastic to me. Enough bulk to crash it up but with hands, not shovels like a Tindall or a Noon. I like a Ford,Slade,Joseph axis, but it does lack a bit of bulk when you get slow ball or a tight defence.

by Sgt_Pooly Mon 05 Oct 2015, 11:52 am

Which one do you mean GF?

Kvesic just looks very average for me. He makes little impact at the breakdown and just seems to bossed physically. He reminds me of Sam Cane at 19ish yet he's 23. He's certainly not better than Robshaw.

Ewers is a lump but he's ponderous and looks unfit. He has more potential than Kvesic but must improve his fitness.

I'm looking at players and thinking are they (or could they be) better than what we have. The answer is a big fat no.

Clifford and Itoje are the only two players I think could really kick on. They need closely monitored and coached asap. Burgess at 6 could be a good option too.

by Geordie Mon 05 Oct 2015, 12:03 pm

Kvesic mate. Interesting to hear.

Normally we agree pretty much on players, but I just think Kvesic is better than you give him credit. And its probably a view shared by the majority.

However ill repeat, he should have been given some games off the bench for Robshaw to find out if he is or not.

You cant try out everyone I appreciate that but back row has been a grey area.

EDIT: Likewise Ewers should have been at the expense of Haskell who has shown he's just too damn inconsistent at this level.

by Sgt_Pooly Mon 05 Oct 2015, 12:07 pm

I just don't see anything in him mate, massively average. I remember seeing him get comprehensively outplayed at our place and thinking he'll never make the next level.

It would be interesting to see his turnover stats as I can hardly remember him getting one.

Point to note....Nathan Hughes got the most turnovers in the AP from 8. The sooner we get him involved the better imo.

by Bathman_in_London Mon 05 Oct 2015, 12:08 pm

screamingaddabs wrote:Any Bath fans to give a view on Devoto? I saw him play maybe 4 games last season (as in I only watched four games with him in, not that he didn't play more), and every time he looked fantastic to me. Enough bulk to crash it up but with hands, not shovels like a Tindall or a Noon. I like a Ford,Slade,Joseph axis, but it does lack a bit of bulk when you get slow ball or a tight defence.

I think he could go far, it certainly wouldn't be a surprise to see him starting to edge past Eastmond as the starting 12 at Bath. He is definitely a centre rather than a 10 who can play elsewhere as Slade is. He will certainly offer another option in the coming years at 12.

by Sgt_Pooly Mon 05 Oct 2015, 12:10 pm

Devoto would be my call at 12, he's seems the natural option

by cb Mon 05 Oct 2015, 12:25 pm

Devoto would be a wildcard of mine, however he is still young and should not be rushed.

I would like to see Slade have a go at 12 with Joseph at 13 (and Ford at 10). Might not have all the power but we have not been so successful to date with just big centres.

Should be an element of baby and bath water. Not everything is wrong and not everything can be made perfect. Let's retain people (players and coaches) who at least seem OK. Transformation rather than revolution.

With many others I would like to see more muscle in the English pack even if we play with fast backs.

Small margins seem to make large differences and for my money Launchbury, Barritt and Morgan were never match fit.

by HongKongCherry Mon 05 Oct 2015, 12:27 pm

The key areas to address for me are a lack of ball carriers in the pack, a lack of weight in the scrum, lack of focus on the breakdown and the backs being too lateral. Most of these issues can be addressed with the current crop of players and I think it's important not to make too many changes, nevertheless, there does need to be some. I can't see the overseas rule changing any time soon, the PRL want to keep it in place to keep salaries down, so will exert pressure on the RFU in relation to player release.

For me I'd love to see: Marler, Hartley, Cole, Launchbury, Kitchener, Ewers, Kvesic, Vunipola, Youngs, Ford, May, Slade, Joseph, Watson, Goode

by Sgt_Pooly Mon 05 Oct 2015, 12:28 pm

Goode?

by BamBam Mon 05 Oct 2015, 12:33 pm

GOODE?!!

by Bathman_in_London Mon 05 Oct 2015, 12:39 pm

The backline was looking a bit too quick without him.

by HongKongCherry Mon 05 Oct 2015, 12:44 pm

Sgt_Pooly wrote:Goode?

So good he gets quoted twice! Brown is an excellent player, but he has glue on his hands and misses too many opportunities and just runs himself; racking up the metres carried is all well and good, but not if it is at the expense of everything else. He is stronger defensively than Goode, but Goode provides a far stronger attacking option and creative spark.

by beshocked Mon 05 Oct 2015, 1:04 pm

HKC not sure I agree Goode is more attacking than Brown but he most definitely offers better decision making and has a better rugby brain IMO. Goode's biggest issue is a lack of raw pace.

It's about utilising a player's strengths.

Some of players have bags of pace but not the brains to use it, Goode is the opposite, not pacy but one of the most creative players in England IMO.

by Geordie Mon 05 Oct 2015, 1:09 pm

When is the next game....is it the first 6n game?

by No 7&1/2 Mon 05 Oct 2015, 1:12 pm

Scotland away isn't it? Barring Uruguay.

by Geordie Mon 05 Oct 2015, 1:15 pm

Only a few months away...you'll guess its a pretty familiar team will be running out. One or two tweaks to the pack./

by No 7&1/2 Mon 05 Oct 2015, 1:16 pm

Think a lot may depend on what the coaching team is. may well be drastically different.

by HongKongCherry Mon 05 Oct 2015, 1:17 pm

beshocked wrote:HKC not sure I agree Goode is more attacking than Brown but he most definitely offers better decision making and has a better rugby brain IMO. Goode's biggest issue is a lack of raw pace.

It's about utilising a player's strengths.

Some of players have bags of pace but not the brains to use it, Goode is the opposite, not pacy but one of the most creative players in England IMO.

I completely agree. Goode is not fast, but we have plenty of players in the team with speed. What we have very little of are players capable of reading a game and Goode is outstanding at that.

by Geordie Mon 05 Oct 2015, 1:18 pm

Drastic change isn't probably the answer. The backs should stay the same...just fix the 12 spot.

The pack need a kick up the backside. Too many players look a shadow of themselves. Lawes, Cole and Marler in particular as I have mentioned previously.

If they regain form...fine if not then your right they must be looked at.

The main area for me is the back row.

by yappysnap Mon 05 Oct 2015, 1:24 pm

I don't know about the whole squad but two things stand out to me for the next season.

1. A few players need to go back to their clubs aware that their positions are under threat and that they need to perform now. How they deal with this will be a good indication of their mind sets and their ability to deal with pressure/set backs. I'm mostly thinking the pack minus Launchbury and B Vunipola. They all need a good few months back at their clubs, working on their main roles without interruptions, and then they can be assessed again.

2. We need more experience, leadership and players who've played in big games. Guys like Hartley, Haskall, Easter, Cipriani, Tuilagi and Foden injuries permitting all need to be in the match day 23 for the 6N's. Dropping in more youngsters is just repeating what Lancaster did after the last RWC.

by yappysnap Mon 05 Oct 2015, 1:26 pm

Oh and just to throw more names out there, don't forget there's also:

Thomas
Auterak
Garvey
Fearns
Dickinson
Simpson
Daly
Devoto
Yarde
Rokodunguni

by jbeadlesbigrighthand Mon 05 Oct 2015, 1:29 pm

One thing that leaps out to me is that Tuilagi seems now to be seen as a backup to Joseph. Certainly, Joseph has the 13 shirt, but I think FES' centre combo of 12 Tuilagi, 13 Joseph is worth a look, although only with a creative 10.

There's also a lot of movement towards a bigger second row and a big 6. I don't see how that helps us with the breakdown or the lineout, particularly with any of Vunipola, Morgan or Hughes at 8. Should it not be either/ or?

As for Ashton, I can see Beshocked's point about him playing with a functioning midfield (and for what it's worth, I thought he would have been a decent shout against Wales, where his ability to run off the shoulder might have been valuable given the stodgy midfield). However, putting him in front of Watson is madness. I can't see an area where Ashton is clearly superior. When you factor that Watson is 21 and has massive potential for improvement, why block his way just to give another guy a second chance? Perhaps harsh on Ashton, but it's better for the team.

by Geordie Mon 05 Oct 2015, 1:31 pm

yappysnap wrote:

2. We need more experience, leadership and players who've played in big games. Guys like Hartley, Haskall, Easter, Cipriani, Tuilagi and Foden injuries permitting all need to be in the match day 23 for the 6N's. Dropping in more youngsters is just repeating what Lancaster did after the last RWC.

Not Easter. Time to let that ship sail. Haskell....the most infuriating of the lot. Just plain inconsistent at this level. I'd move him on aswell.

by Geordie Mon 05 Oct 2015, 1:33 pm

jbeadlesbigrighthand wrote:

There's also a lot of movement towards a bigger second row and a big 6. I don't see how that helps us with the breakdown or the lineout, particularly with any of Vunipola, Morgan or Hughes at 8. Should it not be either/ or?

.

Hughes was the top turnover in the prem last season I believe....and is a lineout jumper.

by majesticimperialman Mon 05 Oct 2015, 1:34 pm

Lancaster is leaving after the next game on saturday.

So who ever comes in and takes over from SL, will have to start a fresh with the 6ns just around the corner.

The future is not looking toooooooo good for England at the moment.;

by Geordie Mon 05 Oct 2015, 1:34 pm

yappysnap wrote:Oh and just to throw more names out there, don't forget there's also:

Auterac - If he plays well at the start of the season - he MUST be in the Saxons.
Garvey - Don't get me started on him he should have been in from day one....but I believe that ship has sailed now.
Fearns - That ship has sailed

by Geordie Mon 05 Oct 2015, 1:36 pm

majesticimperialman wrote:Lancaster is leaving after the next game on saturday.

So who ever comes in and takes over from SL, will have to start a fresh with the 6ns just around the corner.

The future is not looking toooooooo good for England at the moment.;

Where have you heard that?

Ironically....despite the doom and gloom...I have huge hopes for England. We do have some cracking players...just need to get the right coaching set up.

by No 7&1/2 Mon 05 Oct 2015, 1:39 pm

Despite going out in the groups we are in a much better position that 4 years ago imo.

by majesticimperialman Mon 05 Oct 2015, 1:39 pm

GeordieFalcon wrote:
majesticimperialman wrote:Lancaster is leaving after the next game on saturday.

So who ever comes in and takes over from SL, will have to start a fresh with the 6ns just around the corner.

The future is not looking toooooooo good for England at the moment.;

Where have you heard that?

Ironically....despite the doom and gloom...I have huge hopes for England. We do have some cracking players...just need to get the right coaching set up.

I have just read it in the Daily Mirror (Alex Sphinx colloum) It says Lancaster to quit after Uraguay game,

by yappysnap Mon 05 Oct 2015, 1:40 pm

GeordieFalcon wrote:
yappysnap wrote:

2. We need more experience, leadership and players who've played in big games. Guys like Hartley, Haskall, Easter, Cipriani, Tuilagi and Foden injuries permitting all need to be in the match day 23 for the 6N's. Dropping in more youngsters is just repeating what Lancaster did after the last RWC.

Not Easter. Time to let that ship sail. Haskell....the most infuriating of the lot. Just plain inconsistent at this level. I'd move him on aswell.

The thing is if we keep picking new people on potential then we won't get anywhere.

Those two and the others on that list have 1000's of caps worth of experience in the Prem and Europe, both have gone through Poopie times and come out the other side and both are leaders in their own way.

Yes they are not world class, but not every player needs to be and frankly more are any that you're pushing for, and for the moment what they do bring could be just as important as the ability to sprint super quick or offload like SBW's.

by Geordie Mon 05 Oct 2015, 1:43 pm

Oh im not adverse to keeping experience in there.

I would actually consider keeping Parling in there and lots are calling for him to go.

I just think Haskell has never performed for us...so why keep playing a guy who isn't going to improve. Try someone else.

Likewise Easter....we have replacements who are young etc and captains.

by lostinwales Mon 05 Oct 2015, 1:43 pm

yappysnap wrote:
GeordieFalcon wrote:
yappysnap wrote:

2. We need more experience, leadership and players who've played in big games. Guys like Hartley, Haskall, Easter, Cipriani, Tuilagi and Foden injuries permitting all need to be in the match day 23 for the 6N's. Dropping in more youngsters is just repeating what Lancaster did after the last RWC.

Not Easter. Time to let that ship sail. Haskell....the most infuriating of the lot. Just plain inconsistent at this level. I'd move him on aswell.

The thing is if we keep picking new people on potential then we won't get anywhere.

Those two and the others on that list have 1000's of caps worth of experience in the Prem and Europe, both have gone through Poopie times and come out the other side and both are leaders in their own way.

Yes they are not world class, but not every player needs to be and frankly more are any that you're pushing for, and for the moment what they do bring could be just as important as the ability to sprint super quick or offload like SBW's.

We will get somewhere if we keep picking new people as long as we keep picking the same ones. There isn't a short cut to getting experience in the team.

by Mad for Chelsea Mon 05 Oct 2015, 1:51 pm

At the risk of sounding a bit like a Broken Record

and hark back to the "Glory Days", Woodward's 03 side were big on TCUP (Thinking Clearly Under Pressure), which to me was what was most lacking this campaign. Sure you can talk about the personnel, the selections, etc. but ultimately we should have beaten Wales fairly comfortably, but:
- were unable to score more than one try despite many visits to their 22.
- kept giving away extremely silly penalties in non-threatening zones (30-50 meters out)
That and Wales scored with one of their only chances (bit of a soft try).

Equally against Australia in the first half we got into promising positions on a few occasions but couldn't capitalise, whereas they scored twice (both tries defensive errors too).

Onto the personnel, since that is the real purpose of this thread.

Front row. Props were out of form, and seem to be going backwards. Cole didn't contribute at the breakdown (normally one of his strengths), and neither carried well. Might be worth giving Mako a proper run, his scrummageing seems to have improved, and he does carry well (made a big difference vs Fiji). Youngs didn't do awfully at the line-out but there were a few mistakes which were costly, and there's a feeling we lose out at the scrum with him. Good around the park though. Webber is solid enough but we need more I feel. Maybe George? Has looked as good as anyone else. Or Hartley? Somewhat harshly treated given his "headbutt" wasn't much of one really...

Second row: not sure what's happened to Lawes. Launchbury played well. Parling was his dependable self but doesn't really do quite enough for me. Itoje and Slater will surely be involved at some point.

Back row: needs to be addressed. Nothing wrong with number 8 really, though Morgan was below par (possibly not quite recovered from injury?). Billy was excellent, and his loss in the Wales game really hurt us I think. Flankers are a problem. Robshaw did OK, as did Wood, but the balance just doesn't feel right. Tempted to try Kvesic there for a "proper" openside, and maybe pick a bruising carrier at 6: Burgess if he continues to develop there, or Garvey/Fearns/Ewers.

Half-backs: don't think much change is needed. Farrell is still a good player and gets too much stick IMO, but Ford should be first choice every time. Youngs/Care is fine, I think Wigglesworth is a bit of a "Lancaster" player: very solid and dependable, but no real spark. I would like to see England go the more exciting route, pick players on what they do rather than what they don't. Wigglesworth's greatest strength is probably his kicking, but I don't think England should go down that route with our attacking options in the backs. I really like Dan Robson, and if he can impose himself at Wasps he should be in the squad.

Centres: a big issue, at least at IC. Still no solution found, to a degree England have been unlucky with injuries preventing them finding a fixed combination, but I think we need to pick one of Slade/Devoto there and stick to it. Joseph at OC, Tuilagi if he sorts himself out on the bench.

Back three: not too many issues here, the five options at the WC are fine, it's interesting that one of England's most promising backline passages of play was the first warm-up game vs France with Goode, who gets so much stick on here...

So my team:

Mako George Brookes
Lawes (needs to get back to doing what he does best) Launbury
Burgess/Garvey Kvesic Vunipola
Youngs Ford
Slade Joseph
May Brown Watson

Rest of squad:
Corbs, Marler, Hartley, Youngs, Cole, Wilson
Slater, Itoje
Robshaw, Morgan, Haskell
Robson, Care
Farrell, maybe Cipriani, Devoto, Burrell, Tuilagi
Nowell, Yarde, Goode.

Something like that...

by No 7&1/2 Mon 05 Oct 2015, 1:52 pm

One of the key things will be the form of players between now and the end of January. We'll quickly get a better idea of changes if Slater is leading from the front and has the same form as before his injury, if Itoje or burgess become an imperious 6 etc or vice versa.

by screamingaddabs Mon 05 Oct 2015, 1:54 pm

jbeadlesbigrighthand wrote:One thing that leaps out to me is that Tuilagi seems now to be seen as a backup to Joseph. Certainly, Joseph has the 13 shirt, but I think FES' centre combo of 12 Tuilagi, 13 Joseph is worth a look, although only with a creative 10.

There's also a lot of movement towards a bigger second row and a big 6. I don't see how that helps us with the breakdown or the lineout, particularly with any of Vunipola, Morgan or Hughes at 8. Should it not be either/ or?

As for Ashton, I can see Beshocked's point about him playing with a functioning midfield (and for what it's worth, I thought he would have been a decent shout against Wales, where his ability to run off the shoulder might have been valuable given the stodgy midfield). However, putting him in front of Watson is madness. I can't see an area where Ashton is clearly superior. When you factor that Watson is 21 and has massive potential for improvement, why block his way just to give another guy a second chance? Perhaps harsh on Ashton, but it's better for the team.

I'd be happy enough with this so long as:

A) Slade on the bench
B) Goode at 15
C) Brown on the Bench.

Without A) and C) we can't change our approach if we want to.
Without B) it relies totally on Ford and the opposition know what's coming.

Australia have shown us (and NZ also for many years) that you need more than one creative ball player these days.

Edit: Just to add that this would be SO hard on Brown, who has been consistently our best performer for ages now.

by LordDowlais Mon 05 Oct 2015, 2:06 pm

Ouch, not only have England been knocked out of their own WC, they are now at their lowest world ranking ever:-

http://www.skysports.com/rugby-union/news/12321/10018788/england-down-to-eighth-in-rankings-after-rugby-world-cup-exit

by No 7&1/2 Mon 05 Oct 2015, 2:08 pm

Our world cup LD, it's in Wales as well.

by Geordie Mon 05 Oct 2015, 2:09 pm

Do the rankings mean anything? I think not.....

by gregortree Mon 05 Oct 2015, 2:09 pm

Rock bottom is a good place to start from. Clean house while we are at it.

by BamBam Mon 05 Oct 2015, 2:09 pm

Not when Wales are 3rd they don't

by LordDowlais Mon 05 Oct 2015, 2:11 pm

Scotland could climb above you as well if results go their way over the next few games.

by majesticimperialman Mon 05 Oct 2015, 2:12 pm

WOW, that is more pain full than being knocked out of the rugby world cup.

by LordDowlais Mon 05 Oct 2015, 2:13 pm

majesticimperialman wrote:WOW, that is more pain full than being knocked out of the rugby world cup.

When it rains, it pours. Hug

by BamBam Mon 05 Oct 2015, 2:13 pm

majesticimperialman wrote:WOW, that is more pain full than being knocked out of the rugby world cup.

It definitely isn't maj

by 21st Century Schizoid Man Mon 05 Oct 2015, 2:18 pm

This letter to Stuart Lancaster appeared on the Glasgow Warriors site:-

Dear Stuart

You've been a sleeper for so long that we'd forgotten you were one of ours, and presumed you'd gone over. We in Scotland have finally realised in the last week or so that you value your roots and we thank you for your service to the Nation. Its nice to realise how much those U19 and 21 Scotland caps actually meant to you!!

There will be whisky shortbread and bagpipes made ready for your return.

Kind regards

The Scottish Rugby Community

by BamBam Mon 05 Oct 2015, 2:24 pm

Very plausible

by LordDowlais Mon 05 Oct 2015, 2:28 pm

Would I be correct in saying that if Scotland get a bonus point win and a good margin of victory against Samoa then they could climb above England ?

by Geordie Mon 05 Oct 2015, 2:35 pm

I repeat...do the rankings actually mean anything? No....

England need to close ranks, get a new coach, rejuvenate some of the players who look appallingly out of form and confidence...then come out fighting in the 6n.

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