QF1: South Africa v Wales, 17 October

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SOUTH AFRICA v WALES

17 October 2015
16:00 BST (UTC+01)
Twickenham, London

Live on expensive telly

Ref: Wayne Barnes (England)
ARs: George Clancy (Ireland) and JP Doyle (England)
TMO: Graham Hughes (England)

A. Head to Head

30 Played 30
27 Won 2
1 Drawn 1
2 Lost 27
814 Points 440

B. Recent Form

29 November 2014
Millennium Stadium, Cardiff
12–6 to Wales

21 June 2014
Mbombela Stadium, Nelspruit
31–30 to South Africa

14 June 2014
Growthpoint Kings Park, Durban
38–16 to South Africa

9 November 2013
Millennium Stadium, Cardiff
15–24 to South Africa

11 September 2011
Wellington Regional Stadium, Wellington
17–16 to South Africa

13 November 2010
Millennium Stadium, Cardiff
25–29 to South Africa

5 June 2010
Millennium Stadium, Cardiff
31–34 to South Africa

8 November 2008
Millennium Stadium, Cardiff
15–20 to South Africa

C. TEAMS:
SOUTH AFRICA

Le Roux; Pietersen, Kriel, De Allende, Habana; Pollard, Du Preez (capt); Mtawarira, B du Plessis, Malherbe; De Jager, Etzebeth; Burger, Louw, Vermeulen.

Replacements: Strauss for Du Plessis (55), Nyakane for Tendai Mtawarira (56), J Du Plessis for Malherbe (60), Du Toit for Etzebeth (67), Alberts for Louw (67), Lambie for Pollard (76), Serfontein for Kriel (67), Pienaar (unused).


WALES

Anscombe; Cuthbert, Morgan, Roberts, North; Biggar, G Davies; Jenkins, Baldwin, Lee; Charteris, AW Jones; Lydiate, Warburton (capt), Faletau.

Replacements: Owens for Baldwin (56), James for Jenkins (55), Francis for Lee (55), Davies for Charteris (63), Tipuric for Lydiate (67), L Williams for G Davies (70), Priestland for Biggar (73), Hook for Morgan (67).

Good performances lots of huff and puff but only a 3 point win over an imploding England to show for it. And now back to people saying the same things about Gatland that they do after every big game that they loose (lack of plan B/ attack etc)

Worth saying that I spent last night watching a truly world class Welsh athlete. Jade Jones kicks heads...

offload wrote:

Fanster wrote:

offload wrote:

George Carlin wrote:I don't think that anyone can make a team win if they ultimately haven't got the players to do so. However, it has to be a valid comment that other coaches may have different (and ultimately possibly better) ideas as to how to take this Wales team to the next level.

Given Wales representation on the last Lions tour, there also has to be an argument that Gatland's win record against SANZAR opposition could be better than it is. It's not in any way disloyal to Gatland to say that and it also does not make sense to claim that looking for a second opinion in some way diminishes the massive amount that Gatland has achieved to date. Of course it doesn't.

Because otherwise what are people saying? That Gatland's coaching could not possibly be improved upon? You cannot say that about any coach. That the players could not possibly get even better than they are? Again, I would question whether that could ever be true.

You've expanded my point well.  I'm not prepared to accept that Wales are as good as we can be and that we should settle for where we're at.  I want to see a coaching team that build on what we have achieved - the best teams are always evolving.  I don't see that from Gatland.

Because you dont see it doesn't mean theres not a massive amount of work going on behind the scenes, remember you see just miniscule snippets of what is going on.

Gatland has never showed an inability to progress, every part of the Welsh game plan is subtly changing, because they havn't opened up and scored try after try with a full backline missing doesn't mean he's gone stale.

Perspective.

There is more than one - and yours may not be accurate.  Many hold the view that Gatland has not shown much progress for a while, nothing to do with current injuries.  Subtly changing game plan ??????  where.

Exactly my point hahahahaha

Risca Rev wrote:

Cyril wrote:

Well done SA!

Plucky by Wales but better side won. Just need NZ, Arg and Aus to win for my bet to come in now

Good bet that. It's what I would've done too.

Only just, but

Lucky.

Fanster wrote:

offload wrote:

Fanster wrote:

offload wrote:

George Carlin wrote:I don't think that anyone can make a team win if they ultimately haven't got the players to do so. However, it has to be a valid comment that other coaches may have different (and ultimately possibly better) ideas as to how to take this Wales team to the next level.

Given Wales representation on the last Lions tour, there also has to be an argument that Gatland's win record against SANZAR opposition could be better than it is. It's not in any way disloyal to Gatland to say that and it also does not make sense to claim that looking for a second opinion in some way diminishes the massive amount that Gatland has achieved to date. Of course it doesn't.

Because otherwise what are people saying? That Gatland's coaching could not possibly be improved upon? You cannot say that about any coach. That the players could not possibly get even better than they are? Again, I would question whether that could ever be true.

You've expanded my point well.  I'm not prepared to accept that Wales are as good as we can be and that we should settle for where we're at.  I want to see a coaching team that build on what we have achieved - the best teams are always evolving.  I don't see that from Gatland.

Because you dont see it doesn't mean theres not a massive amount of work going on behind the scenes, remember you see just miniscule snippets of what is going on.

Gatland has never showed an inability to progress, every part of the Welsh game plan is subtly changing, because they havn't opened up and scored try after try with a full backline missing doesn't mean he's gone stale.

Perspective.

There is more than one - and yours may not be accurate.  Many hold the view that Gatland has not shown much progress for a while, nothing to do with current injuries.  Subtly changing game plan ??????  where.

Exactly my point hahahahaha

You're not the authority on the game you think you are, Fanster. You're also rude as f*ck when someone disagrees with you.

Just in case you lads need cheering up.

http://www.walesonline.co.uk/sport/rugby/rugby-news/south-africa-prop-trevor-nyakane-10286801

Surely there is more to talk about?

How will Wales and Gatland move forward after this heavy defeat?

I still say that last scrum should have been a penalty to Wales and not a scrum at all

Agree with that McKay, it was pretty clear in my view. In that second half though we should not have afforded SA so much territory and possssion. I guess SA would have had less of that if the breakdown was fair game, Mr Barnes.... Expect us to pick up by the 6 Nations and then get demolished in NZ.

mckay1402 wrote:I still say that last scrum should have been a penalty to Wales and not a scrum at all

Can we get World Rugby to come out and say it officially now like they did with Joubert incident.

BedfordWelsh. Think I'd back 1/2p to make that tackle in the corner. What I don't like about Wales play is that they're always so flat compared to the likes of France. They can't pass the ball because the defender is already up the next guys jumper and they know it's coming anyway. If they stood back more the defence would have to commit and bingo holes appear. It's easy ain't it. Was thinking of going to the Lions in 2017 wearing down my wife's resistance. But now don't think I'll bother. It's hard enough to be in NZ in June anyway.

Don,

Do the Lions tour, I have been on two losing tours and one winning tour and they were all fantastic.

Yes well thanks for that Bedford

Great game took me me back to the days of my youth,any NZ game 1956-64, 55 yard Rugby
and the boot of Don Clarke.
Great defence,huge effort by both sides,seldom threatened the goal line,both tries being by
accident rather design.
Best attacking move Wales early on spoiled by a pass that would have needed a man
12 feet tall to complete.
Kicking game by Wales lacked variation put to much pressure on them selves by
kicking to a player who returns it with interest.
Final try neat pass but manoeuvre when the wheel, was legal standard practice
9 going blind from wheeled scrum [now that shows my age]

bedfordwelsh wrote:

mckay1402 wrote:I still say that last scrum should have been a penalty to Wales and not a scrum at all

Can we get World Rugby to come out and say it officially now like they did with Joubert incident.

Hehe - I doubt it, though maybe they should.  I didn't post anything too close to the time as it would have been jumped upon as 'sour grapes' by the WUM brigade, but I really did get the feeling Wales were robbed every bit as much as Scotland were.  This also from the Guardian a couple of days ago about the handling of the Joubert situation:

The Guardian wrote:The previous day’s victory was also achieved in the final minutes when Fourie du Preez won the quarter-final for South Africa against Wales with a try. It came from a scrum that, at the point the No8 Duane Vermeulen picked up the ball, had broken up: the Springboks’ tighthead prop Jannie du Plessis was standing up with other players getting into an upright position. Never mind whether a penalty should have been awarded to Wales, the law states: if a player in a scrum is lifted in the air, or is forced upwards out of the scrum, the referee must blow the whistle immediately so that players stop pushing.

Barnes allowed play to continue so should he, one of the two semi-final referees this weekend along with Garcès, be publicly called out? This is the problem for World Rugby with the Joubert statement: where does it end?

Full article here

It also helped that Warburton seems to have been pulled in by their flanker. Surprised he didn't mention it to Barnes.

You could pull any scrum in the world and find a technical penalty. The boks were going forward, if anything even though Jannie pulled up it was because Wales stopped moving back and instead went up, which itself is a penalty.

I have just watched the video and Warburton doesn't seem a) held back or b) reacts to anything such as "get off my shirt". One thing that is stark is that he's quite slow off the blocks. Still was Cuthbert's man and he screwed up.

Wales weren't robbed. They simply sat back and hoped to win. They never went out to win. At least Scotland had a go.

fa0019 wrote:You could pull any scrum in the world and find a technical penalty. The boks were going forward, if anything even though Jannie pulled up it was because Wales stopped moving back and instead went up, which itself is a penalty.

I have just watched the video and Warburton doesn't seem a) held back or b) reacts to anything such as "get off my shirt". One thing that is stark is that he's quite slow off the blocks. Still was Cuthbert's man and he screwed up.

Wales weren't robbed. They simply sat back and hoped to win. They never went out to win. At least Scotland had a go.

Thanks for your opinion.

GavCanDance wrote:

fa0019 wrote:You could pull any scrum in the world and find a technical penalty. The boks were going forward, if anything even though Jannie pulled up it was because Wales stopped moving back and instead went up, which itself is a penalty.

I have just watched the video and Warburton doesn't seem a) held back or b) reacts to anything such as "get off my shirt". One thing that is stark is that he's quite slow off the blocks. Still was Cuthbert's man and he screwed up.

Wales weren't robbed. They simply sat back and hoped to win. They never went out to win. At least Scotland had a go.

Thanks for your opinion.  

Maybe you didn't like the reply, but referees aren't going to give a penalty to a team in a scrum going forward but a prop pops out because the opposition have dug their heels in and instead are going upwards. That's not opinion....

fa0019 wrote:

Wales weren't robbed. They simply sat back and hoped to win. They never went out to win. At least Scotland had a go.

This sounds like an opinion to me...

GavCanDance wrote:

fa0019 wrote:

Wales weren't robbed. They simply sat back and hoped to win. They never went out to win. At least Scotland had a go.

This sounds like an opinion to me...

The article posted and your retort was based around the boks try legitimacy. It is a legitimate try.

Wales never threatened the line, their one try was 50% fortune of Le Roux screwing up, 50% class play by Wales.... but if you only threaten someone's line once don't expect anyone's claims of injustice to be taken seriously.

fa0019 wrote:

GavCanDance wrote:

fa0019 wrote:

Wales weren't robbed. They simply sat back and hoped to win. They never went out to win. At least Scotland had a go.

This sounds like an opinion to me...

The article posted and your retort was based around the boks try legitimacy. It is a legitimate try.

Wales never threatened the line, their one try was 50% fortune of Le Roux screwing up, 50% class play by Wales.... but if you only threaten someone's line once don't expect anyone's claims of injustice to be taken seriously.

Most tries come from people making mistakes in defence. Cuthbert made a mistake Le Roux scored..

fa0019 wrote:You could pull any scrum in the world and find a technical penalty. The boks were going forward, if anything even though Jannie pulled up it was because Wales stopped moving back and instead went up, which itself is a penalty.

I have just watched the video and Warburton doesn't seem a) held back or b) reacts to anything such as "get off my shirt". One thing that is stark is that he's quite slow off the blocks. Still was Cuthbert's man and he screwed up.

Wales weren't robbed. They simply sat back and hoped to win. They never went out to win. At least Scotland had a go.

What video are you watching? Slow off the blocks aye.

https://twitter.com/charliefelix/status/656013064924434432

SA will claim it was a classy instinctive piece of play which won them the try and Wales will look to poor defence. Both arguments have their merit and on this occasion the best team on the day just about deserved the result. No problems. This inexperienced side just lacked the composure to keep the ball in hand for the last 6 minutes with Anscombe choosing to kick while we're on their 22 which proved costly. SA had the power for the last 30 and we struggled so you have to give them credit. Still pleased with many aspects of the welsh performance though and they have coped admirably with adversity.

Risca Rev wrote:

fa0019 wrote:You could pull any scrum in the world and find a technical penalty. The boks were going forward, if anything even though Jannie pulled up it was because Wales stopped moving back and instead went up, which itself is a penalty.

I have just watched the video and Warburton doesn't seem a) held back or b) reacts to anything such as "get off my shirt". One thing that is stark is that he's quite slow off the blocks. Still was Cuthbert's man and he screwed up.

Wales weren't robbed. They simply sat back and hoped to win. They never went out to win. At least Scotland had a go.

What video are you watching? Slow off the blocks aye.

https://twitter.com/charliefelix/status/656013064924434432

Thats because sam Warburtons positioning is totally illegal. Can you not see that. Look at the first picture.

He is actually bound in the front row as a 4 man hit. The man he is arms to arms with is the no.3. He should be at best stuck to the right of the backside. He has engaged the boks because he moved up alongside the front row. Close in on picture 4, look where the locks are, look where Tipuric is with the blue headgear, he should be on the opposite side. Look at his head direction. its all at the ball, never on the man. That suggests he's not aggrieved to any holding on.

If anyone was penalising there it was warburton.

fa0019 wrote:

Wales never threatened the line, their one try...

Mmm - are you seeing this?  And what about the pass from Geth to Morgan?  If that had gone to hand, it was try time.  Line never threatened?..  Really?..



If you truly believe that Wales 'sat back' and 'never went out to win' that match, then I really don't know what to say to you fella.  

Looking at that photo, it's even more of a blown chance than I remember it being. Look at the overlap we've got. Damn the looped miss pass!

Luckless Pedestrian wrote:Looking at that photo, it's even more of a blown chance than I remember it being. Look at the overlap we've got. Damn the looped miss pass!

Those were my exact thoughts Luckless - I never realised it was that clear with the overlap. IMO we have had similar opportunities against England, Australia and Fiji and we have butchered the lot of them. At least we are creating these opportunities which perhaps is the hard part but we must develop the composure and instinct to finish them off.

This is basic stuff that professional rugby players should already have the 'instinct' for. We can't even say 'well, they're only forwards', because we've seen how well forwards have handled this World Cup, Argentina's and New Zealand's in particular. Drawing the man and giving the pass is not difficult, and it should be second nature.

GavCanDance wrote:

fa0019 wrote:

Wales never threatened the line, their one try...

Mmm - are you seeing this?  And what about the pass from Geth to Morgan?  If that had gone to hand, it was try time.  Line never threatened?..  Really?..



If you truly believe that Wales 'sat back' and 'never went out to win' that match, then I really don't know what to say to you fella.  

I don't know why people respond to this deluded clown. He always says stuff like this, and always loves to have a snipe at Welsh players here and there. This is the same guy that thinks Scotland are the top home nation because of a near miss against Aus. Heck if a teams calibre is based on near misses then Wales are the best in the world!

GavCanDance wrote:

fa0019 wrote:

Wales never threatened the line, their one try...

Mmm - are you seeing this?  And what about the pass from Geth to Morgan?  If that had gone to hand, it was try time.  Line never threatened?..  Really?..



If you truly believe that Wales 'sat back' and 'never went out to win' that match, then I really don't know what to say to you fella.  

Just watched the extended highlights... my mistake. You had 2 possessions in the 22, not one. One the try and the other Norths drive down the left which resulted in Gethin throwing the mispass which loomed over Morgan.

So 2.

Any retort on the boks "illegal" try???

mikey_dragon wrote:

GavCanDance wrote:

fa0019 wrote:

Wales never threatened the line, their one try...

Mmm - are you seeing this?  And what about the pass from Geth to Morgan?  If that had gone to hand, it was try time.  Line never threatened?..  Really?..



If you truly believe that Wales 'sat back' and 'never went out to win' that match, then I really don't know what to say to you fella.  

I don't know why people respond to this deluded clown. He always says stuff like this, and always loves to have a snipe at Welsh players here and there. This is the same guy that thinks Scotland are the top home nation because of a near miss against Aus. Heck if a teams calibre is based on near misses then Wales are the best in the world!

Never said they were the best home nation, I said they were the best performing home nation in the RWC and I stand by that. That's a big diff.

Perhaps I'm a clown but please if you may answer me this given I was retorting to ridiculous claims.

Firstly - Wales attack. You were in he 22 twice with possession, just watched the highlights. I said once.... huge diff right.

Secondly - The bok try.  Have a look at the post Gav dance made. A) the boks were moving forward, b) apparently warburton was held back... well he was in the front row arm in arm with the tighthead. Thats why Alberts would have been attached to him.

I guess most of the scrums in that game went like that final one so can't really complain. The final scrum wasn't a scrum to SA, however before that warburton made what should have been not one but two good steals in our 22, but SA were allowed to hold on - as soon as we get to their 22 and Vermeulen does it Barnes blows up for a penalty. Inconsistency was a factor.

mikey_dragon wrote:I guess most of the scrums in that game went like that final one so can't really complain. The final scrum wasn't a scrum to SA, however before that warburton made what should have been not one but two good steals in our 22, but SA were allowed to hold on - as soon as we get to their 22 and Vermeulen does it Barnes blows up for a penalty. Inconsistency was a factor.

Can we start a hate campaign against the ref now then and get world rugby to admit the ref was wrong and that we should of won the game - moral victory etc etc

mikey_dragon wrote:I guess most of the scrums in that game went like that final one so can't really complain. The final scrum wasn't a scrum to SA, however before that warburton made what should have been not one but two good steals in our 22, but SA were allowed to hold on - as soon as we get to their 22 and Vermeulen does it Barnes blows up for a penalty. Inconsistency was a factor.

Another factor was that we stopped playing as the match wore on. I know we were under the cosh, but when you're getting as little ball as we did in the second half, you really should make better use of it. We were content to hoof it long, and the Boks ran it back with interest every time. Gatland's gameplan relies on keeping the ball in play and banking on our (supposedly) superior fitness, but under the circumstances we should have kicked for territory more often.

At the start of the game, we played with width and caused them problems (albeit without taking our chances); in the second half, we shut up shop.

Luckless Pedestrian wrote:

mikey_dragon wrote:I guess most of the scrums in that game went like that final one so can't really complain. The final scrum wasn't a scrum to SA, however before that warburton made what should have been not one but two good steals in our 22, but SA were allowed to hold on - as soon as we get to their 22 and Vermeulen does it Barnes blows up for a penalty. Inconsistency was a factor.

Another factor was that we stopped playing as the match wore on. I know we were under the cosh, but when you're getting as little ball as we did in the second half, you really should make better use of it. We were content to hoof it long, and the Boks ran it back with interest every time. Gatland's gameplan relies on keeping the ball in play and banking on our (supposedly) superior fitness, but under the circumstances we should have kicked for territory more often.

At the start of the game, we played with width and caused them problems (albeit without taking our chances); in the second half, we shut up shop.

We played the territory game against them in Cardiff and it worked 'shocker'.

Poor tactics cost us a few matches this tournament.