England Squad for the 6N 2016

First topic message reminder :

Well, the dust is settling on our early exit, time to concentrate on the next disappointment.

We obviously have no idea who the Head Coach or team will be at this current point, but we can take a stab at the potential squad going into the 6N.

2 games into the AP season, who's looking impressive? Who can come in under the radar and steal a spot? Are any of the disappointing WC squad going to grab the bull by the horns and actually impress! Who should be captain? What could or starting 23 be? Do we starting blooding for 2019 now?

The question is are England likely to win a world cup with Farrell at 10? Unless we can find a forward pack who can completely dominate every other pack (unlikely) and recall a backline of tacklers (Barritt) and kickers (Goode) and play grind the opposition down rugby (Saracens), then for me the answer is no. The only issue I have with Ford is his place kicking. Cipriani still has his past reputation and I think we need to either give him a chance to see whether he can now consistently do it, or bin him. Slade is my big hope at 10 rather than centres, as I think he potentially has everything - kicking, running and defence. What we do need is a coach who can pick a game plan and consistently play to it and pick the flyhalf to carry out that game plan - not a coach who panics at the first bit of pressure a reverts to safety first.

Ah jeez, there's a lot of negativity there - a lot of it over-egged, I think.

England have been mismanaged with a poor gameplan and still managed to be very competitive in consecutive Six Nations. Just think what a proper coach could bring to the team? There is the possibility that a sharp correction could be made quite quickly.

This round of European games will tell us a lot about where players are, so I'll hold fire until then.

In the meantime, I'll just say that most teams would kill for players like Ford, Joseph, Billy V and so forth. The other pieces will slot into place once the coach knows what style plays best to the strengths of the collective.

I would still love to see 9 Care 10 Ford 12 Slade 13 Joseph. Who cares if you concede 4 tries as long as you score 6?

nlpnlp wrote:  Slade is my big hope at 10 rather than centres, as I think he potentially has everything - kicking, running and defence.  .

I agree I would love to see him nail that Exeter 10 spot and make the England 10 his own. For exactly the reasons you say above. He is the balance of Ford and Farrell.

However at present with Steenson playing well and Slade looking very good in the centres that wont change.

I think we have loads of quality players...we just need the right balance.

George Carlin wrote:I would still love to see 9 Care 10 Ford 12 Slade 13 Joseph. Who cares if you concede 4 tries as long as you score 6?

My worry with Slade in the centres would be attack rather than defence. If we don't get quick ball from the forwards then it would be extremely difficult for a back line that size to get over the gainline to create momentum.

In defence I'd be much less worried about a backline with Slade at 12 than one with Barritt at 13 for instance. Whilst an excellent tackler and defensive organiser Barritt simply doesn't have the pace to defend the outside channels against the best.

Slade on the other hand has all the attributes to defend very well at 12 IMO. He tackles excellently, reads the game very well and has the natural leadership needed to run a defensive line.

Regardless of my worries about getting over the gainline 12.Slade 13.Joseph would still be my first choice centre partnership for the 6 Nations though. If we pick a pack with plenty of strong carriers then we can use them for heavy duty carrying and getting over the gainline.

I too wonder where our hard carrying backs are...Rokodungni the exception at the moment.

GeordieFalcon wrote:I too wonder where our hard carrying backs are...Rokodungni the exception at the moment.

Burrell is an option but with Joseph and Daly good options at 13 who offer a threat on the outside then whoever is coach would need him firing at 12.

Manu is of course excellent in contact but injured...

On the wings Rokoduguni is a strong carrier, as is Nowell. Yarde is also very good at breaking tackles if he can get back to his best - I know he isn't rated too highly on here at current but I still have the image of him running straight through McCaw to score stuck in my mind!

Yarde

Nowell carries hard and also still defends at 10 for the Chiefs on some defensive set pieces. very solid. Yarde seems to have lost a yard of pace! has he been injured?

It seems strange that we don't seem to have many big crash ball carriers - whether it is the fact we have employed so many pacific islanders in the premiership, that means we have not developed our own George North/Jamie Roberts/etc. A midfield of Slade and Joseph whilst being exciting on one hand, does seem somewhat lightweight. Burrell seems to be the only option at the moment for the crash ball whilst Manu is injured. I think a Ryan Hall or Kallum Watkins could really add something to the England team - how do people feel about England going out recruiting a proven rugby league player?

nlpnlp wrote: I think a Ryan Hall or Kallum Watkins could really add something to the England team - how do people feel about England going out recruiting a proven rugby league player?

Is that meant to be a joke following the you know who situation this World Cup?

In fact lets think about it....

Sam Burgess One of the best league players in the world- Fail
Farrell - Top RL player - Fail
Eastmond - Hugely promising RL player - Fail
Henry Paul - Fail
Vainikolo - Best years were behind him - Fail
S. Hape
etc
etc
etc
etc

Its fair to say going to league has not be fruitful for England. Bar the obvious exception...Mr Jason Robinson!

Yarde is getting back to form...I wouldn't have in in the England squad over Nowell/Watson/May just yet though....but he's keeping up the pressure on them.

If we go RL they need to be young, around 20-22. Ryan Hall is an absolute beast but he's 27 and a year or 2 to mould him, too much imo.

Eastmond is still young enough to be able to do plenty in Union IMO, whether with Bath or England. He is out of favour currently but a new coach could very easily take a liking to him. Plus he is still only 26 so has time to do something yet.

Obviously it's dependent on who is in the EPS, but what sort of side do people want to see for the Saxons during the 6 Nations?

Would we like to see guys who were around the squad for the RWC but miss out on the next EPS get a go? I.e. if the likes of Wood or Haskell miss out would we want them in the Saxons?

Or would people prefer seeing the youngsters given a go?

GeordieFalcon wrote:

nlpnlp wrote: I think a Ryan Hall or Kallum Watkins could really add something to the England team - how do people feel about England going out recruiting a proven rugby league player?

Is that meant to be a joke following the you know who situation this World Cup?

In fact lets think about it....

Sam Burgess One of the best league players in the world- Fail
Farrell - Top RL player - Fail
Eastmond - Hugely promising RL player - Fail
Henry Paul - Fail
Vainikolo - Best years were behind him - Fail
S. Hape
etc
etc
etc
etc

Its fair to say going to league has not be fruitful for England. Bar the obvious exception...Mr Jason Robinson!

Whilst it's not a good idea in the slightest, it is far easier for a League winger to make the switch than any other player which is a big reason why most of the players failed although I did think Hape was half decent.

For the Saxons I want to see a team that plays tactics that Echos the senior team...so its easy for players to interchange due to injuries etc.

GeordieFalcon wrote:For the Saxons I want to see a team that plays tactics that Echos the senior team...so its easy for players to interchange due to injuries etc.

Clueless and disjointed?

I think the problem is who you recruit from rugby league, not rugby league itself. Burgess is a world class rugby league player, but his skills don't lend themselves to union and he was pretty clearly never going to be a success. Farrell was over the hill when he came to union and simply broke. It will be the same with Kevin Sinfield. And why oh why do you recruit a forward from league to play centre in union? Hall and Watkins are both around 6' 2" and 16 st. Watkins would have transferable skills, is only 24 and could be a real success.

Eastmond is 5' 7" and 13st and a rugby league scrumhalf. Why would he be a success at centre playing rugby union? If he played anywhere it would be scrumhalf but presumably he doesn't have the passing or positional skills. So why would he be a success at union?

Who do England have to play at centre in the Nonu "bosh it up" style? Barritt, Twelvetrees, Burrell? All have been tried and to a degree failed. We are then having to rely on untried youngsters like Devoto and Hill. Where is our Savea? The likes of Nowell may be a hard runner, but at 5' 8" and 15st he isn't going to have the opposition trembling in their shoes. I am not saying rugby league is the answer, but I think we need to look at all options.

The Nonu 'bosh it up' style is something wonderful and skilful to behold (eg his movement for his try in the RWC Final), nipnip, as I'm sure you realise. The nightmare scenario you evoke would surely be more like the 'bosh it up' Bastereaud, who has been thoroughly worked out: a non-tackling, non-kicking, non-passing wrecking ball that doesn't even wreck properly.

If he stops jumping off ferries and hitting people, Manu might yet be the answer for England.

Bathman_in_London wrote:

GeordieFalcon wrote:For the Saxons I want to see a team that plays tactics that Echos the senior team...so its easy for players to interchange due to injuries etc.

Clueless and disjointed?

So who ever gets chosen it won't be Stu doing the picking at least

So......any clues?

It will curious to see what direction the new coach will go.

What would you say if he kept the same lineup......?

There's no way in the world that a new SH coach will keep the same lineup.

A new NH coach already in England might, but that would seem to squander all of the goodwill that you get at the start where losses don't matter because of 'experimentation' and the team being 'in a transitional phase'.

The sort of coach that England needs will pick whomever the hell they want. That's exactly what Rennie and Smith did at the Chiefs in 2011 when they took over and just chose a lot of youngsters from the U20s whom they felt were worth the risk. The coaches were criticised at the time for this approach. Some of those youngsters chosen? Brodie Retallick, Sonny Bill Williams and Asaeli Tikoroituma.

Good coaches can pick em.

A fresh slate I imagine, players will be in on merit rather than reputation I hope.

George Carlin wrote:There's no way in the world that a new SH coach will keep the same lineup.

A new NH coach already in England might, but that would seem to squander all of the goodwill that you get at the start where losses don't matter because of 'experimentation' and the team being 'in a transitional phase'.

The sort of coach that England needs will pick whomever the hell they want. That's exactly what Rennie and Smith did at the Chiefs in 2011 when they took over and just chose a lot of youngsters from the U20s whom they felt were worth the risk. The coaches were criticised at the time for this approach. Some of those youngsters chosen? Brodie Retallick, Sonny Bill Williams and Asaeli Tikoroituma.

Good coaches can pick em.

That is yet another reason that I would love Rennie and Smith as our coaching team with the likes of Baxter, Gustard/Edwards, Borthwick, etc working with them in varying roles.

What new players do you people reckon we will see come in if a SH hemisphere coach takes over?

An openside with a real breakdown presence would be the obvious one.

More dynamic locks who offer more power around the park wouldn't surprise me either.

In the backs I wouldn't be surprised if we see a lot more emphasis on speed of service at scrum half. Whilst Youngs and Care offer this at their best both have been inconsistent at International level as well. I would expect that both may be given less room for error in this regard. If they started losing form I wouldn't be surprised to see them back in club rugby very rapidly to regain their mojo - a very good thing IMO.

George Carlin wrote:There's no way in the world that a new SH coach will keep the same lineup.

A new NH coach already in England might, but that would seem to squander all of the goodwill that you get at the start where losses don't matter because of 'experimentation' and the team being 'in a transitional phase'.

The sort of coach that England needs will pick whomever the hell they want. That's exactly what Rennie and Smith did at the Chiefs in 2011 when they took over and just chose a lot of youngsters from the U20s whom they felt were worth the risk. The coaches were criticised at the time for this approach. Some of those youngsters chosen? Brodie Retallick, Sonny Bill Williams and Asaeli Tikoroituma.

Good coaches can pick em.

As much as I agree with the sentiment, Sonny Bill Williams probably isn't the best example of a player plucked from obscurity!!

GeordieFalcon wrote:It will curious to see what direction the new coach will go.

What would you say if he kept the same lineup......?

Depends. The RFU don't have a lot of time before the 6N. So if they go with a completely new face, he will likely be unfamiliar with the fringe and potential players; and thus more likely to keep the old faces and style until he can get to grips with things. Someone from the existing set-up or the AP may be more likely to make more changes in the squad and perhaps the style of play.

BamBam wrote:

George Carlin wrote:There's no way in the world that a new SH coach will keep the same lineup.

A new NH coach already in England might, but that would seem to squander all of the goodwill that you get at the start where losses don't matter because of 'experimentation' and the team being 'in a transitional phase'.

The sort of coach that England needs will pick whomever the hell they want. That's exactly what Rennie and Smith did at the Chiefs in 2011 when they took over and just chose a lot of youngsters from the U20s whom they felt were worth the risk. The coaches were criticised at the time for this approach. Some of those youngsters chosen? Brodie Retallick, Sonny Bill Williams and Asaeli Tikoroituma.

Good coaches can pick em.

As much as I agree with the sentiment, Sonny Bill Williams probably isn't the best example of a player plucked from obscurity!!

Yes, agreed, although for the sake of balance he'd only had a handful of caps, had only played centre and union for 2 years, was boxing at the time, was pretty expensive and the chat from a couple of sources was that this young man was a bit of a pain in the arse. The coaches still had to take a bit of a punt on him.

Lets hope all our players get fit , in form and stay there.

And lets hope for a nice balanced pack!

Hate to inform people, but the 6Ns EPS is to be selected by Farrell, Rowntree and Catt

LondonTiger wrote:Hate to inform people, but the 6Ns EPS is to be selected by Farrell, Rowntree and Catt

Nnnnnnnnooooooooooooo!!!!!!

It's like a bad dream but I just can't wake up

Well hold onto your hollyhocks it just got worse. England will finish this 6N a creditable 2nd, all the other possible top-man choices will say they are too principled to take the England money, and the 3 stooges will be offered the full time coaching job as a sort of holy trinity. Huzzah!

Why are they still there?

TightHEAD wrote:Why are they still there?

Because someone has to be until a new Coach is appointed.

Can they just be told to pick a 70 man EPS to be trimmed by 30 once the new man arrives

Or be told to pick a combined Saxons and England squad, surely they can't get it wrong by including every remotely decent England player

Ask 606 to compose 3 full 23 man squads - and I suspect there woudl be quite a lot of variation.

Sgt_Pooly wrote:

LondonTiger wrote:Hate to inform people, but the 6Ns EPS is to be selected by Farrell, Rowntree and Catt

Nnnnnnnnooooooooooooo!!!!!!

It's like a bad dream but I just can't wake up

Bang goes Cipriani's hopes of getting back into the team then

LondonTiger wrote:Ask 606 to compose 3 full 23 man squads - and I suspect there woudl be quite a lot of variation.

Lets try it! Start the thread as an experiment!

EDIT - Doh!!! You already did!

I wonder how long it'll be till we see Paul Hill in a squad. He's looked excellent when I've seen him and surely can't be long until he has Brookes shirt at Saints.

Hopefully it'll be a while. He'll benefit more from playing for Saints while Brookes is away than he will being in the training squad for England. He looks good.

A few English players showed up well over the weekend. Good to see the M. Vunipola and George solidifying their set piece credentials and backing it up in the loose. Kruis and Itoje continue to impress in the second row, although I do question whether that could be replicated to the international stage as a partnership because it seems a little too small for my liking.

Brookes went well for the Saints, and was very strong in the set piece for the 60 odd mins he was on. Wood also went well playing as a 7.

At Leicester, the pack went very well with Cole and Youngs impressing, although with Youngs I still hold a reservation about him at international level.

All in all a good weekend for England players, no one really dropping away in form.

No change when Hill replaced Brookes, still murdered the Scarlets front row, won a penalty at his first scrum. Waller went very well as well, gave his opposite number too much to think about and was like another 7 at the breakdown, made a lot of hard yards. He is like a bigger version of Youngs, gets very low and drives hard to make consistent yards.

agree re Waller, thought he was excellent, as was Wood.

Sarries players obviously laid down a serious marker. Interesting that the scrum really strugled when Vunipola and George came off, whereas previously it had been dominant. OK Toulouse probably had something to do with it, but food for thought surely? Given one of the main objections to Vunipola starting is his supposed lack of scrummaging capabilities...

Worth a mention at Sarries, apart from their forward pack, is Ashton who was excellent. He also made a couple of good covering tackles. Time is still on his side, and Ashton at his best is a lethal weapon to have in your backline, albeit that England do seem to have some very good options on the wings at the moment. Barritt also had a strong showing, though obviously not everyone's cup of tea.

Be interesting to see if the players mentioned can carry their form over the next few weeks/months.

I rate Waller very highly. I'd have him only behind Marler in the pecking order given his strong set piece and breakdown work.

If Mako can continue to show up well at scrum time then he really will be pushing for a starting berth, as in the loose he is the best of all the options.

Same goes for Brookes at tight head. Cole has gone well the last few games at scrum time but hasn't really offered much else around the park. In this regard Brookes is really pushing.

Brookes struggles to maintain that high tempo, his scrummaging is the first thing to go and it goes fast.

Mako flatters to deceive a little for me. He's usually fine against the bigger guys but struggles against the more technical props. I think he's best used as an impact option personally.

Sgt_Pooly wrote:Brookes struggles to maintain that high tempo, his scrummaging is the first thing to go and it goes fast.

Mako flatters to deceive a little for me. He's usually fine against the bigger guys but struggles against the more technical props. I think he's best used as an impact option personally.

Luckily for Saints then, they have Hill who looks every bit as good as Brookes and is 5 years younger. Brookes only lasting 60 minutes is fine with Saints, JM changes the front row on 60 minutes like it was a prescription that has to be taken the same time every day.

I'm surprised Brookes lasts that long tbh wpi. He was a 30/40 min man at Falcons and then his scrummaging would go back at a rate.

I don't actually rate him that highly tbh, I think Hill will get past him within the year.