England Squad for the 6N 2016

First topic message reminder :

Well, the dust is settling on our early exit, time to concentrate on the next disappointment.

We obviously have no idea who the Head Coach or team will be at this current point, but we can take a stab at the potential squad going into the 6N.

2 games into the AP season, who's looking impressive? Who can come in under the radar and steal a spot? Are any of the disappointing WC squad going to grab the bull by the horns and actually impress! Who should be captain? What could or starting 23 be? Do we starting blooding for 2019 now?

Not a bad set of front rows at Saints at the moment, with even more youngsters coming through:

Waller (A) Hartley Brookes
Corbs Haywood Hill
Waller (E) Williams Denman

With a couple of other junior internationals coming through. I can see them supplying the whole England front row at some point in time. Waller/Corbs - Hartley - Brooks/Hill

Haywood for me is a massively under rated player, very much in the Tom Youngs mould except he can scrimmage, hook the ball and hit his man in the lineout with consistency, passes better than Youngs as well.

Is this 17.5 stone mobile lhp a standard size now, with the exception of Mako, all the new young loose heads seem to be coming out of the same mould

Well it appears Eddie Jones is yer man according to the bookies

That's a great stable of props.

Has Jones moved ahead of White?

word is there has been a flurry of betting in the last 24 hours, and he is now 1/3 on with some bookies with White at 11/4

WELL-PAST-IT wrote:Not a bad set of front rows at Saints at the moment, with even more youngsters coming through:

Waller (A)   Hartley    Brookes
Corbs        Haywood   Hill
Waller (E)  Williams   Denman

With a couple of other junior internationals coming through. I can see them supplying the whole England front row at some point in time.  Waller/Corbs - Hartley - Brooks/Hill

Haywood for me is a massively under rated player, very much in the Tom Youngs mould except he can scrimmage, hook the ball and hit his man in the lineout with consistency, passes better than Youngs as well.

Is this 17.5 stone mobile lhp a standard size now, with the exception of Mako, all the new young loose heads seem to be coming out of the same mould

Has Hill played any games for Saints? He looks a fine prospect.

BigTrevsbigmac wrote:

WELL-PAST-IT wrote:Not a bad set of front rows at Saints at the moment, with even more youngsters coming through:

Waller (A)   Hartley    Brookes
Corbs        Haywood   Hill
Waller (E)  Williams   Denman

With a couple of other junior internationals coming through. I can see them supplying the whole England front row at some point in time.  Waller/Corbs - Hartley - Brooks/Hill

Haywood for me is a massively under rated player, very much in the Tom Youngs mould except he can scrimmage, hook the ball and hit his man in the lineout with consistency, passes better than Youngs as well.

Is this 17.5 stone mobile lhp a standard size now, with the exception of Mako, all the new young loose heads seem to be coming out of the same mould

Has Hill played any games for Saints? He looks a fine prospect.

He has played in 5 or 6 games so far, I don't think he has started any, but came on against Scarlets after 60 minutes and played very well, scrum looked just as solid with him as it did with Brookes, won a penalty on his first scrum.

WELL-PAST-IT wrote:

Is this 17.5 stone mobile lhp a standard size now, with the exception of Mako, all the new young loose heads seem to be coming out of the same mould

Yeah Ive noticed that. Corbs was up around 19st. Id like a few more LH's with a bit more weight on them.

Whats Auterac? He looks like hes a bit heavier.

Auterac is listed at 18st 2lbs by Bath

WELL-PAST-IT wrote:

BigTrevsbigmac wrote:

WELL-PAST-IT wrote:Not a bad set of front rows at Saints at the moment, with even more youngsters coming through:

Waller (A)   Hartley    Brookes
Corbs        Haywood   Hill
Waller (E)  Williams   Denman

With a couple of other junior internationals coming through. I can see them supplying the whole England front row at some point in time.  Waller/Corbs - Hartley - Brooks/Hill

Haywood for me is a massively under rated player, very much in the Tom Youngs mould except he can scrimmage, hook the ball and hit his man in the lineout with consistency, passes better than Youngs as well.

Is this 17.5 stone mobile lhp a standard size now, with the exception of Mako, all the new young loose heads seem to be coming out of the same mould

Has Hill played any games for Saints? He looks a fine prospect.

He has played in 5 or 6 games so far, I don't think he has started any, but came on against Scarlets after 60 minutes and played very well, scrum looked just as solid with him as it did with Brookes, won a penalty on his first scrum.

BamBam wrote:Auterac is listed at 18st 2lbs by Bath

So even at a young age he's bucking the trend.

Auterac is a beast. If he can nail his technique he'll be some player.

I really fancy Hill to get past Brookes within the season. Not sure if that's because I really like the look of Hill or because I don't rate Brookes.

Both Sgt...Hill does indeed look a genuine prospect.

But he'll look no better than Cole has with a lightweight second row and a miniature hooker....

GeordieFalcon wrote:Both Sgt...Hill does indeed look a genuine prospect.

But he'll look no better than Cole has with a lightweight second row and a miniature hooker....

Haywood is about the same size as Youngs, but Hill looks okay with him. I don't think it is just size, the ability to scrummage is also necessary. TY just doesn't have it, amongst other things.

Aw I thought haywood was bigger. Not huge, but bigger than Youngs and a better technical player.

Anyway ...none of them will make the 6n squad...as I cant see huge changes. Lets hope theres a a couple of shrewd changes that makes big differences.

Saints have him, at 5'11" and at 15st 6lb, against 5'9" and 16st 5lb. So taller and lighter than Youngs. He runs Hartley very close in my opinion. Certainly a great replacement on 60 minutes, his speed and aggression against tiring teams is often the difference in close games.

Plus he can throw the ball straight and hit his man, hook the ball and manage to scrummage well despite his lack of stature. The extra couple of inches probably make a difference in that regard.

Youngs seems to be too muscle packed, it must slow him down and reduce agility.

I know Youngs has quite significant back problems...and I have heard it affects his throwing. Whether that's true or not I guess Tigers fans can confirm.

For the moment I think Jamie George is putting in a good shout for that 2 spot.

Hartley, George and Haywood would be a good trio.

Yeah I think they would.

Right that's hooker sorted.

Another 14 to go...

Youngs is going to be picked by anyone who could possibly get picked as England manager. Now another 14 to go!

No 7&1/2 wrote:Youngs is going to be picked by anyone who could possibly get picked as England manager. Now another 14 to go!

..............and there lies our biggest problem

No 7&1/2 wrote:Youngs is going to be picked by anyone who could possibly get picked as England manager. Now another 14 to go!

I really hope not.

I doubt very much Jake White would pick a hooker who's poor at the set piece.

Think Youngs is now our most under rated player. You've got to start to wonder what all these top coaches see in him.

I think he'll be 3rd choice come the 6Ns however.

No 7&1/2 wrote:Think Youngs is now our most under rated player. You've got to start to wonder what all these top coaches see in him.

His loose work.

It certainly can't be his ability in the scrum or lineout as he's weak there. These obviously weren't SL priorities coming into the WC as I honestly thought we'd be ok. I do think we seemed to focus on other areas (like fitness/mobility around the park) and just put the set piece on the back burner until it was too late.

Top lineout last year wasn't it?

No 7&1/2 wrote:Top lineout last year wasn't it?

But he needs Leicester locks to get anything at Int level. Club form is kind of irrelevant if you're consistently poor on the Int stage. It's not just his %'s, it's never clean ball, the locks have to really work to get anything from his throw. Maybe it's the pressure?

I think too much is made of his set piece at international level, he's generally fine. Anyhow nobody will change their mind on it.

Props that can work with Hartley and be solid suddenly come apart when Youngs gets on, it can't just be they are getting tired as so are their opposite numbers.

His lineout work is also very poor when he doesn't have the Leicester jumpers, Hartley works well with Lawes and Wood, but is still solid with just about any other combo.

I can't argue his loose play is very good, except for his passing, as an ex-centre you would think that would be a strong point. I can only think that he is over developed to try and bulk up to weight and this restricts his movement

Like I said, no one will be swayed.

I suspect it will be:

Hartley
George
Youngs

No 7&1/2 wrote:I think too much is made of his set piece at international level, he's generally fine. Anyhow nobody will change their mind on it.

I don't know how you can think it's fine tbh but this is obviously your opinion and I'll respect that.

A question though.....is "fine" ok from any England player at their core task?

GeordieFalcon wrote:I suspect it will be:

Hartley
George
Youngs

Almost guaranteed I would think. Between the 3 of them there should be something for most situations.

I think the set piece is still very important.

Fortunately we have most of our locks coming back from injury or playing well.

The Tigers trio of Slater (just back), Kitchener (a couple of games) and Big Dom Barrow (3 games already) will be interesting to watch and have plenty of time to get fit and play themselves in to form for the 6n.

Huge competition for that spot.

Sgt_Pooly wrote:

No 7&1/2 wrote:I think too much is made of his set piece at international level, he's generally fine. Anyhow nobody will change their mind on it.

I don't know how you can think it's fine tbh but this is obviously your opinion and I'll respect that.

A question though.....is "fine" ok from any England player at their core task?

Good then. Too much is made of it. He'll be battling it out and a very serious contender for any England coach. He can be part of a great scrummaging side with a great lineout. We don't really have any great scrummaging props at the moment, nearest being Mullan and Wilson (who's not that great for me to be honest). We've not really gone for great lineout locks.

I said fine as everyone said we were about to have a horrific time in the setpieces in the WC; didn't happen bar the Aussies getting away with more 'clever' play before getting caught out again.

I just can't agree with that.

Fiji gave us all sorts of problems in the scrum, that should not be happening. The locks constantly battled to get their hands on Youngs darts, he's so unaccurate.

Are you happy with fine?

Why shouldn't it? Fiji's scrum is really good.

I think Young's set piece is better than fine and up there with any English hooker.

No 7&1/2 wrote:

Sgt_Pooly wrote:

No 7&1/2 wrote:I think too much is made of his set piece at international level, he's generally fine. Anyhow nobody will change their mind on it.

I don't know how you can think it's fine tbh but this is obviously your opinion and I'll respect that.

A question though.....is "fine" ok from any England player at their core task?

Good then. Too much is made of it. He'll be battling it out and a very serious contender for any England coach. He can be part of a great scrummaging side with a great lineout. We don't really have any great scrummaging props at the moment, nearest being Mullan and Wilson (who's not that great for me to be honest). We've not really gone for great lineout locks.

I said fine as everyone said we were about to have a horrific time in the setpieces in the WC; didn't happen bar the Aussies getting away with more 'clever' play before getting caught out again.

eh?! We went from pretty much matching anyone to a bunch of big girls' blouses in a few short months. Set-piece was a stand out weakness. I've never seen it so weak in all the time I watched England. To reiterate our set-piece was unacceptably poor. I could go on...

Was Youngs part of the set piece before when we were matching anyone? Yes.

No 7&1/2 wrote:I think too much is made of his set piece at international level, he's generally fine. Anyhow nobody will change their mind on it.

I was just going off your previous comment of generally fine which kind of indicates at times it's less than fine.

I'm not having a go, I'm just generally intrigued how anybody can rate his set piece work at Int level. He struggles to hook the ball, is underpowered in the scrum and very rarely gives his jumpers clean ball to work with(that's if he gets anywhere near them).

All opinions end of the day, if core tasks aren't your priority I can see where you're coming from as he's good in the loose. I just like the front 5 to do their primary roles first and foremost and anything else is a bonus.

I have never rated Tom Youngs for England.

Totally agree Barney, we should not be battered off Austrailia and struggle against Fiji, it's unacceptable.

To answer you 71/2, I can't recall Youngs ever being part of a strong English set piece so it's a no.

Fair enough. Australia were bending the rules of scrummaging straight for me and Fiji look really good there. I rate Youngs highly, some obviously don't. I've been impressed by our forwards for a while but we've not had a powerful scrum for over ten years or a lineout ruling for more than a few months for longer. That's not down to Youngs.

Who's it down to? I've never seen us have major problems with Hartley, in fact quite the opposite.

We scrummed Austrailia off the park in the Autumn ints.

But the whole scrum was below standard at the RWC (despite chewing up Wales, for all the good it did us). That level of performance wasn't down to one player alone

Totally agree, but Youngs doesn't help. It's not just the scrum, it's the hooking and the lineout.

A hooker should be good at his basics first imo. Anyway, I think we've done Youngs to death.

No 7&1/2 wrote:

Sgt_Pooly wrote:

No 7&1/2 wrote:I think too much is made of his set piece at international level, he's generally fine. Anyhow nobody will change their mind on it.

I don't know how you can think it's fine tbh but this is obviously your opinion and I'll respect that.

A question though.....is "fine" ok from any England player at their core task?

Good then. Too much is made of it. He'll be battling it out and a very serious contender for any England coach. He can be part of a great scrummaging side with a great lineout. We don't really have any great scrummaging props at the moment, nearest being Mullan and Wilson (who's not that great for me to be honest). We've not really gone for great lineout locks.

I said fine as everyone said we were about to have a horrific time in the setpieces in the WC; didn't happen bar the Aussies getting away with more 'clever' play before getting caught out again.

To be fair, Youngs' lineout looks far better than Webber's. Surely Webber would have to be shown the door first, in which case Youngs would probably still be 3rd choice at worse. As for the scrum, I think the de-powering of England's props and 2nd row had more to do with that weakening. Although if you have to pick a lightweight 2nd row to accommodate Youngs' throwing then I guess it's rather chicken and egg.

I saw Hartley as part of scrums giving up ground and penalties and have a mediocre 6Ns with the lineout. Different refs see different things. I thought Aus got away with not pushing straight Marler having to follow and getting pinged. M aybe others saw it differently hey ho such is life. You reckon Watson or Nowell will get some time at full back?

One of them needs a shot.

I see Nowell get favoured a lot because he's a little like Brown but I think Watson could be a real threat running from deep. Do either have a kicking game though?

I'd like to see Nowell or Watson get game time at 15 later in games or off the bench.

As for second choice behind Brown in case of injury - I think Chris Pennell is already showing his class once again since coming back into the Prem. He deserves the second EPS spot along with Brown.

Don't forget Foden is back in the mix, ideal utility player for a bench slot.

England are blessed with too many options for fullback cover, Watson, Nowell, May, Foden, Pennell. So we will automatically man sausage it up as we always do when faced with a choice.

It runs in the English, look what happens whenever the English public are allowed to vote on anything, we always pick the "cheesy" option, Eurovision Song Contest (deliberate ploy by the BBC to avoid hosting it), Jeremy Vine in Strictly, I would say David Cameron, but that is probably not allowed.

Perhaps that is why we need a foreign coach.

Foden has returned strongly which is great to see. He also doesn't seem to have lost much (if any) pace which is rare when you're 30 and get a bad injury.

Personally I rate Pennell slightly higher than Foden though. His basics are so strong especially his work under the high ball, handling and kicking. I also think he'd accompany our current wing options better than Foden would.

Foden would be my next in line after Pennell and starting for the Saxons however.

9.Simpson/Robson
10.Cipriani

11.Yarde
12.Eastmond
13.Lowe
14.Rokoduguni
15.Foden

I'd love to see a Saxons backline such as that during the 6 Nations!